Pass the Corona ese... Novel Corona aka COVID-19

[6Pennies]

Arizona is doing "blitz testing" the next three Saturdays.  I went this morning though I am not sick and have zero symptoms.  Felt like they touched the back of my eyeball. I'll know in two days if I am an asymptomatic carrier.

Edited May 2, 2020 by 6Pennies
edits.

[T4M*]

[Hua Guofang]

Life imitates anime ^^^^^

 

 

 

 

Interesting piece, not sure I agree or disagree, but no doubt that the world is at inflection point

 

 

Is this the
Kindleberger moment?

Peter Layton

Covid-19 exposes a power vacuum where exceptionalism
and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories go hand in hand.

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/kindleberger-moment

 

 

---

In 1973 Charles Kindleberger wrote his now acclaimed book on the Great Depression. He argued that it was “great” because the global economic system had lost its hegemon – in less exotic terms, its system manager. In the interwar period, the UK was the system manager, but given the grievous financial damage inflicted by the First World War, it could not fully play the role. The US became the new pretender, yet domestic politics meant it would not step up and take control. The upshot was that there was no one running the system, no banker of last resort to provide liquidity at the moment the world needed it most. The depression became “Great”. Chaos ruled.

 

For want of a better term, this could be where we are now, at the Kindleberger moment. Charles Krauthammer at the end of the Cold War famously wrote of the unipolar moment, when America stood like a colossus on the world stage. Today’s Kindleberger moment may be when America forfeits that role and becomes a lesser state, observing the world around it, rather than leading it.

 

Domestically, the Trump administration appears to have handled the Covid-19 pandemic poorly. In an environment of limitless confusion, the president seems to have ceded control, allowing the 50 states to take the lead individually amid a national emergency that has claimed 50,000 American lives in less than six weeks. Reflecting this leadership withdrawal, two new regional governance blocs have emerged: the West Coast Pact comprising California, Oregon and Washington State, and the Multi-State Council comprising Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Rhode Island. The Trump administration’s dismantling of the “deep state” appears to have been successful. Turns out, it was more shallow and fragile than expected. The federal government is now fading from view.

 

For middle powers and smaller states the fragmentation of the international system means we should all now plan on being “home alone”.

 

This decline is nowhere more evident than internationally. In previous global emergencies – financial or medical – the US has taken charge and successfully led global efforts. With the “deep state” dead, and an inward focused presidency, the US has now lost that capacity. As a counterargument, some will say the US military remains world-leading. In technical terms, that may be so, but militaries are extensions of government, not the government. With federal administrations collapsing, America’s national armed forces become less important, even if each state’s National Guard becomes more so. This disintegration was underscored in the truly extraordinary dismissal of the captain of USS Theodore Roosevelt, who on 30 March raised concerns about Covid-19 infections on his aircraft carrier. Three days later, he was fired by the acting secretary of the navy, Thomas Modly, a political appointee of President Donald Trump. Modly subsequently resigned after sustained pressure from Democratic lawmakers.

 

For a Kindleberger moment to occur, though, it is not just about the old system manager leaving the stage, it is also about the pretender not materialising when summoned. If the Trump administration has flaws, so too has Xi Jinping’s Chinese Communist Party. Of course, authoritarian regimes lack moral foundations, and that is to be expected. However, China’s deliberate concealment of early Covid-19 infection rates is remarkable. Moreover, in continuing to actively spread Russian-led conspiracy theories, and in refusing to accept some level of responsibility for Covid-19 deaths and worldwide disruption, China’s global standing is in freefall. With astounding chutzpah, the Party is now sending aid and selling medical equipment to the very nations its inaction has sickened, all the while vociferously claiming credit for being a good citizen of the world. Xi Jinping’s Chinese Communist Party does not have the credentials to be the new system manager.

 

With both superpowers withdrawing by default, the international system is now captain-less. Some may say this is a good thing, but the pandemic highlights the dangers. There is now no one to stave off a repeat, and financial crashes reappear with some regularity in the contemporary capitalist system. In the absence of a competent and widely accepted system manager it is chaos, not stability, which acts as proxy.

 

For middle powers and smaller states, the fragmentation of the international system means we should all now plan on being “home alone” and anticipate that problems requiring global solutions will go unaddressed. The big one already inbound is not the next pandemic or economic collapse, but global warming. The world is at +1C and heading to +3C by 2070. If China and the US have left the stage, then middle powers and smaller states are in serious long-term trouble.

 

All that sounds gloomy – and it is – but the Kindleberger moment is a choice. It is not pre-ordained. Joe Biden might win the presidency in November. However, with US politicians using social fragmentation to win office, far-right media exploiting such fragmentation for commercial gain, and Russia abetting both, the odds are at best mixed. On the other hand, the Chinese Communist Party may reform itself, ditch its new leader, and return to its liberalising (but not liberal) manifestation of 2000–2010. Sadly, that scenario seems improbable. 

 

This could indeed be the Kindleberger moment.

[morton]

My neighbors threw a house party to celebrate the partial lifting of the stay at home order, they partied in the yard and on the porch in a small compromise to the social distancing concept.

 

I will be returning to work tomorrow and would feel a lot better if I had any confidence that the people I work with had been as disciplined as I have about keeping safe since we went home six weeks ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Schnitzel]

funny.

 

i've seen this handed out at train stations in sydney but NEVER seen it in Suburban Adelaide where I live.

 

 then the other day an old chinese guy on.a bike rolls past and puts it in my mailbox. I Like the 21million fewer cell phone users article.

 

@Hua Guofangsurely you know more about this paper than me. Who does this? 

 

Not fucking about with opinions on the virus.

 

 

[Hua Guofang]

Yeah, Epoch Times is Falun Gong. It's their international rag that attacks the CCP. It used to be useful to read in terms of another voice documenting some part of China's existence from a non-censored source, but they have gone off the rails recently.

 

Their owners believe that Trump is the best chance for them to dethrone the CCP so they've gone all in MAGA/Qanon. Some of the shit they've printed is ultra-loony and might as well have come straight from St Petersberg or 8Kun.

 

Regards the 21 million phones accounts that disappeared, there are other plausible explanations for that than just them getting CV19 and dying. I believe that in China, those that run afoul of the CCP censors often have their mobile accounts closed, as part of the censorship. Those numbers referred to in that article may have been accounts that were deleted when the CCP were trying to get a hold of the public narrative around the outbreak.

[CALIgula]

They pump that propaganda here in the states too. 

[~KRYLON2~]

I've seen their ads on youtube, I'll skip that shit real quick. 

[Hua Guofang]

If you see a Chinese dance theatre show called Shen Yun, that's also Falun Gong. Don't think it's the same people that do Epoch Times, I think it's a money making venture more than anything, not completely sure though.

[where]

12 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Yeah, Epoch Times is Falun Gong. It's their international rag that attacks the CCP. It used to be useful to read in terms of another voice documenting some part of China's existence from a non-censored source, but they have gone off the rails recently.

 

Their owners believe that Trump is the best chance for them to dethrone the CCP so they've gone all in MAGA/Qanon. Some of the shit they've printed is ultra-loony and might as well have come straight from St Petersberg or 8Kun.

 

Regards the 21 million phones accounts that disappeared, there are other plausible explanations for that than just them getting CV19 and dying. I believe that in China, those that run afoul of the CCP censors often have their mobile accounts closed, as part of the censorship. Those numbers referred to in that article may have been accounts that were deleted when the CCP were trying to get a hold of the public narrative around the outbreak.

Sounds like the CCP line, the Falun Gong have been heavily persecuted for the past 20 years, erased from the internet there and they categorize them as mentally ill and can have them involuntarily committed, which is where they are killed and their organs harvested. They’re literally qigong temples that run on donations instead of the memberships and in the late 90s the CCP was afraid they were a threat because some of their funding was foreign. I’m sorry but in the USA and I assume Australia that foreigners can give money to any non terrorist organizations without sweeping repercussions. These people aren’t terrorists and if we let China treat them as such it creates a massively dangerous precedent for the fates of persecuted people. They want Trump to help them cause they’re backed in a corner and their human rights are being trampled. 

[Hua Guofang]

4 minutes ago, where said:

Sounds like the CCP line, the Falun Gong have been heavily persecuted for the past 20 years, erased from the internet there and they categorize them as mentally ill and can have them involuntarily committed, which is where they are killed and their organs harvested. They’re literally qigong temples that run on donations instead of the memberships and in the late 90s the CCP was afraid they were a threat because some of their funding was foreign. I’m sorry but in the USA and I assume Australia that foreigners can give money to any non terrorist organizations without sweeping repercussions. These people aren’t terrorists and if we let China treat them as such it creates a massively dangerous precedent for the fates of persecuted people. They want Trump to help them cause they’re backed in a corner and their human rights are being trampled. 

Whoa! Who the fuck called them terrorists??!

 

Yeah, I'm well aware of who they are (lived and worked in China as a security analyst for years, half my family are Chinese, there are people close to me, in China that have been involved with FG) and I'm aware of why the CCP doesn't like them and you've missed the main reason why the CCP doesn't like them - foreign funding is almost irrelevant.

 

Any authoritarian state does not allow potential competitors or any organisation that people hold in higher regard than their govt. That is why the CCP attacks any religion and unions that are not CCP controlled (among many other similar orgs). The CCP doesn't want any group to become organised enough that it can move against it, and that's what FG was. The Party had no idea how deep FG had progressed in Chinese society and that there were senior Party, police and military members that were FGers. The Party started pushing back and one day around 10,000 FGers surrounded Zhongnanhai (the CCP compound next to Forbidden City) and held hands in peaceful protest. None of the Party intelligence or policing apparatuses saw this coming and FG's ability to organise en masse, in the capital, against the Party's wishes were monumental shock to the Party leaders and brought back memories of June 4 1989.

 

Their response was to demonise FG and to destroy them. They succeeded in demonising them to the majority of Chinese nationals but they didn't destroy them and the world, largely sees them as a kooky sect that do breathing exercises. (yes, I know what qigong is)

 

I don't have a problem with FG, I see them as harmless and I see the CCP as the problem. However, that does not change the facts that Epoch Times have gone full retard with MAGA/Qanon because they think Trump is their best bet against the Party (which shows an astonishing lack of judgement on their part). They now print articles which are damaging to US national interests and national security, which, I believe, shows how short-sighted their thinking is.

 

And regards to you suggesting that I repeat Party lines, you have no idea how uninformed that idea is.

 

[where]

3 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

I see the CCP as the problem. 

 

At least we have that in common. I respect your perspective on this. Their sensationalism with The Epoch Times comes out of hopelessness. They normally have a protest going like 14 hours a day in the Boston Common, our central municipal park located a block away from Chinatown. I’ve talked with these people extensively, researched and just think it’s fucked up. Can you point to a few examples where they were damaging to US national security?

[Hua Guofang]

4 minutes ago, where said:

At least we have that in common. I respect your perspective on this. Their sensationalism with The Epoch Times comes out of hopelessness. They normally have a protest going like 14 hours a day in the Boston Common, our central municipal park located a block away from Chinatown. I’ve talked with these people extensively, researched and just think it’s fucked up. Can you point to a few examples where they were damaging to US national security?

When I say that they are damaging US nat sec, I refer only to Epoch Times, not FG as a whole.

 

FG have perpetual protests outside the Chinese embassy and consulates here in Australia (at least they used to, haven't checked for quite a while but I saw one dude doing his thing outside the embassy the other week) and used to have a full setup in China town. We had a Chinese diplomatic staffer, essentially a spy, defect to Australia years ago because of what he was made to do regards tracking and documenting FG in Australia. And the organ harvesting, all indications point towards that it is still happening, they've just hidden it more deeply since being internationally called out (and jailing some scapegoats).

 

How is Epoch Times harming US national security? By publishing wild conspiracy theories about deep state activities to take out Trump, by publishing "special investigations" into the Meuller probe by people who's stated agenda is to support Trump and that are connected to the Qanon conspiracies, etc. etc. They're basically undermining the US intelligence community, the DoJ (excepting Barr), the FBI and the ODNI on behalf of Trump because they say things that he doesn't like, such as that the Russians interfered in the 2016 elections. They're essentially playing the same role as the Russians did, sowing doubt, distrust and unrest in ways that support Trump, as opposed to supporting the public interest.

 

There are a lot of whistles to be blown on the IC (2003 for starters), the FBI, DoJ, etc. they are far from perfect, as is the system in general. But Epoch Times has an agenda other than finding the truth. Their agenda is to assist in manufacturing a truth that supports Trump, regardless. Their aim is to unseat the CCP and it seems that they don't mind if they harm US social cohesion and trust in institutions as a result.

[where]

Falun Gong aren’t stupid people, they’re very dedicated but I feel they share that trait with most Chinese. I work with/have worked with a decent amount of Chinese people in the event industry in Boston, I’ve met YoYo Ma a few times cause he and I both work with Harvard, obviously in different capacities lol, but he’s a politically ambiguous Chinese cultural icon and I like that more he reminded me a little  of The FG people a little more more sensible but honestly all the other Chinese people over 30 I’ve met save one or two have completely drank the kool aid and are generally a bummer to be around because in my opinion they can’t see reality. I have a feeling covid will change this somewhat though. Out of curiosity what is your take on Xinjiang?

[ndv]

I get the impression there isn't enough unemployment funds, but there is plenty of phases to open up the country as quickly as possible. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by ndv

[where]

2 minutes ago, ndv said:

I get the impression there isn't enough unemployment funds, but there is plenty of phases to open up the country as quickly as possible. 

Some states more than others, the 600 a month from the fed is set to run out on July 18th, but there will probably be another stimulus and funding of UI when congress is in session next week.

[Hua Guofang]

1 hour ago, where said:

Falun Gong aren’t stupid people, they’re very dedicated but I feel they share that trait with most Chinese. I work with/have worked with a decent amount of Chinese people in the event industry in Boston, I’ve met YoYo Ma a few times cause he and I both work with Harvard, obviously in different capacities lol, but he’s a politically ambiguous Chinese cultural icon and I like that more he reminded me a little  of The FG people a little more more sensible but honestly all the other Chinese people over 30 I’ve met save one or two have completely drank the kool aid and are generally a bummer to be around because in my opinion they can’t see reality. I have a feeling covid will change this somewhat though. Out of curiosity what is your take on Xinjiang?

I'm sure that there a multiple layers of culture at work as well, but the Chinese people have been conditioned in what to believe for a very long time, well before the CCP turned up. Confucianism is essentially telling adherents to defer to your better - children to mother, mother to husband...., etc. emperor to heaven in order to create harmony and the one that breaks that harmony is the problem. Their idea of justice or fairness is that the weak don't tell the strong what to do, and the strong should be just in using their power. That's a very, very crude summary, but it shows that those down the line are to accept what their told. The CCP just carry that fine tradition to a brutal extreme.

 

I married into China and we don't discuss politics or anything even close with that side of the family. There's no point and there are real risks. However, I have some friends, some just normal people, some less so, that are independent thinkers, given the families they grew up in. They are no idiots; bright, clever, modern and very nice people.

 

Xinjiang, just another crime against humanity that we'll collectively say "never again" to and then turn our back until it's time to say "never again" again. Although, I work with a group of people who work hard on the issue to bring light to it, not so much as an act against the CCP but due to the horror, the loss of culture, to help the innocent and to 'do the right thing'.

 

China isn't a nation, it's a Han empire that takes in many ethnicities and their homelands, such as Inner Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. Anthropologists will tell you that Guangdong and other parts of China's south are, in terms of language, food, traditions, cultures, etc. are more closely related to Vietnam and Southeast Asia than they are to Han CHina.

[Hua Guofang]

Just found out a family friend in Wuhan died. He was a math teacher that helped poor and troubled kids get an education.

 

He had liver cancer. When the virus hit there were not enough resources available to continue his treatment, he was sent home to die.

 

This is an example of how those who think it's an individual choice for people to put themselves in harms way don't seem to grasp the concept of contagion and that resources to treat the sick and injured are limited.

 

Don't be a selfish arsehole, blinded by absolutist ideology. Your actions have consequences beyond yourself. 

[Hua Guofang]

Little doubt that this was a deliberate leak by the CCP to shape thinking in Washington and the capitals of its allies:

 

 

 

Exclusive: Internal Chinese report warns Beijing faces Tiananmen-like global backlash over virus

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-sentiment-ex/exclusive-internal-chinese-report-warns-beijing-faces-tiananmen-like-global-backlash-over-virus-idUSKBN22G19C

BEIJING (Reuters) - An internal Chinese report warns that Beijing faces a rising wave of hostility in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak that could tip relations with the United States into confrontation, people familiar with the paper told Reuters.

 

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

As a result, Beijing faces a wave of anti-China sentiment led by the United States in the aftermath of the pandemic and needs to be prepared in a worst-case scenario for armed confrontation between the two global powers, according to people familiar with the report’s content, who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter.

The report was drawn up by the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations (CICIR), a think tank affiliated with the Ministry of State Security, China’s top intelligence body.

Reuters has not seen the briefing paper, but it was described by people who had direct knowledge of its findings.

“I don’t have relevant information,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson’s office said in a statement responding to questions from Reuters on the report.

China’s Ministry of State Security has no public contact details and could not be reached for comment.

 

CICIR, an influential think tank that until 1980 was within the Ministry of State Security and advises the Chinese government on foreign and security policy, did not reply to a request for comment.

Reuters couldn’t determine to what extent the stark assessment described in the paper reflects positions held by China’s state leaders, and to what extent, if at all, it would influence policy. But the presentation of the report shows how seriously Beijing takes the threat of a building backlash that could threaten what China sees as its strategic investments overseas and its view of its security standing.

Relations between China and the United States are widely seen to be at their worst point in decades, with deepening mistrust and friction points from U.S. allegations of unfair trade and technology practices to disputes over Hong Kong, Taiwan and contested territories in the South China Sea.

In recent days, U.S. President Donald Trump, facing a more difficult re-election campaign as the coronavirus has claimed tens of thousands of American lives and ravaged the U.S. economy, has been ramping up his criticism of Beijing and threatening new tariffs on China. His administration, meanwhile, is considering retaliatory measures against China over the outbreak, officials said.

It is widely believed in Beijing that the United States wants to contain a rising China, which has become more assertive globally as its economy has grown.

The paper concluded that Washington views China’s rise as an economic and national security threat and a challenge to Western democracies, the people said. The report also said the United States was aiming to undercut the ruling Communist Party by undermining public confidence.

Chinese officials had a “special responsibility” to inform their people and the world of the threat posed by the coronavirus “since they were the first to learn of it,” U.S. State Department spokeswoman Morgan Ortagus said in response to questions from Reuters.

 

Without directly addressing the assessment made in the Chinese report, Ortagus added: “Beijing’s efforts to silence scientists, journalists, and citizens and spread disinformation exacerbated the dangers of this health crisis.”

A spokesman for the U.S. National Security Council declined to comment.

REPERCUSSIONS

The report described to Reuters warned that anti-China sentiment sparked by the coronavirus could fuel resistance to China’s Belt and Road infrastructure investment projects, and that Washington could step up financial and military support for regional allies, making the security situation in Asia more volatile.

Three decades ago, in the aftermath of Tiananmen, the United States and many Western governments imposed sanctions against China including banning or restricting arms sales and technology transfers.

China is far more powerful nowadays.

Xi has revamped China’s military strategy to create a fighting force equipped to win modern wars. He is expanding China’s air and naval reach in a challenge to more than 70 years of U.S. military dominance in Asia.

In its statement, China’s foreign ministry called for cooperation, saying, “the sound and steady development of China-U.S. relations” serve the interests of both countries and the international community.

It added: “any words or actions that engage in political manipulation or stigmatization under the pretext of the pandemic, including taking the opportunity to sow discord between countries, are not conducive to international cooperation against the pandemic.”

COLD WAR ECHOES

One of those with knowledge of the report said it was regarded by some in the Chinese intelligence community as China’s version of the “Novikov Telegram”, a 1946 dispatch by the Soviet ambassador to Washington, Nikolai Novikov, that stressed the dangers of U.S. economic and military ambition in the wake of World War Two.

Novikov’s missive was a response to U.S. diplomat George Kennan’s “Long Telegram” from Moscow that said the Soviet Union did not see the possibility for peaceful coexistence with the West, and that containment was the best long-term strategy.

The two documents helped set the stage for the strategic thinking that defined both sides of the Cold War.

China has been accused by the United States of suppressing early information on the virus, which was first detected in the central city of Wuhan, and downplaying its risks.

Beijing has repeatedly denied that it covered up the extent or severity of the virus outbreak.

China has managed to contain domestic spread of the virus and has been trying to assert a leading role in the global battle against COVID-19. That has included a propaganda push around its donations and sale of medical supplies to the United States and other countries and sharing of expertise.

 

But China faces a growing backlash from critics who have called to hold Beijing accountable for its role in the pandemic.

Trump has said he will cut off funding for the World Health Organization (WHO), which he called “very China-centric,” something WHO officials have denied.

Australia’s government has called for an international investigation into the origins and spread of the virus.

Last month, France summoned China’s ambassador to protest a publication on the website of China’s embassy that criticized Western handling of coronavirus.

The virus has so far infected more than 3 million people globally and caused more than 200,000 deaths, according to a Reuters tally.

[misteraven]

What a shit show.

 

Seems more time is spent on political posturing and games than actually working towards solutions. No doubt they'd argue its one and the same, but eventually this all leads to a zero sum game.

[Kalashnikov]

56 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

But China faces a growing backlash from critics who have called to hold Beijing accountable for its role in the pandemic.

Well, no shit. This whole thing is pretty much entirely the fault of the CCP. If they wouldn't have wasted time in the first few critical weeks, trying to hide and deny the fact that the virus existed and was rapidly spreading, who knows how many lives would have been saved around the world. But since they were more worried about saving face, we're stuck in this situation. The CCP wants to pat themselves on the back now for containing the virus, but it's too late. All of the authoritarian lockdown procedures they put into place would have been great from the beginning.

 

You don't get to deny the fact that there's a fire on the stove, watch the fire spread to the entire kitchen, then the living room, and finally when smoke and flames are billowing out of every room in the house, go outside and get the fire hose, put part of the fire out and then pat yourself on the back for doing such a great job. That's not how it works. 

 

Don't get me wrong, China is not the only country that has handled this poorly. The same can be said about the vast majority of countries in the world, most notably (almost all of) Europe and the United States. The world was not prepared for something like this, and personally, I feel that we have learned a whole lot of nothing as a collective species. For many people, behaviors aren't changed. Politicians are more concerned about making this into a Democrat vs Republican issue than they are with public health and saving lives.

 

I feel that, in America, some places (in regards to businesses, not the government) were all gung-ho about locking down and keeping safety the number one priority. Now that we're at something like 7 weeks in, places are opening back up because they just can't afford it anymore. I mean, I get it. But it's like, "Oh, we need to close to make sure that our employees stay safe", then as the weeks pass, "Well shit, I didn't think this was going to last this long. We can't afford this anymore, so fuck it, everybody back to work now."

 

The government, both federal and state/local have been trying to balance a public health vs. economy hit seesaw, and unfortunately with an extremely contagious virus, it doesn't work like that. You can't have it both ways. The easing of restrictions in certain aspects, and how things were slowly shut down, piece by piece (especially in Florida), doesn't do anything. They opened parks and marinas here at the end of last week, stating that you could go to the park or the marina if you respected social distancing and wore a mask. Guess what? Big surprise, social distancing was not respected at all and people were not wearing masks.

[misteraven]

3 minutes ago, Kalashnikov said:

Well, no shit. This whole thing is pretty much entirely the fault of the CCP. If they wouldn't have wasted time in the first few critical weeks, trying to hide and deny the fact that the virus existed and was rapidly spreading, who knows how many lives would have been saved around the world. But since they were more worried about saving face, we're stuck in this situation. The CCP wants to pat themselves on the back now for containing the virus, but it's too late. All of the authoritarian lockdown procedures they put into place would have been great from the beginning.

 

You don't get to deny the fact that there's a fire on the stove, watch the fire spread to the entire kitchen, then the living room, and finally when smoke and flames are billowing out of every room in the house, go outside and get the fire hose, put part of the fire out and then pat yourself on the back for doing such a great job. That's not how it works. 

 

Don't get me wrong, China is not the only country that has handled this poorly. The same can be said about the vast majority of countries in the world, most notably (almost all of) Europe and the United States. The world was not prepared for something like this, and personally, I feel that we have learned a whole lot of nothing as a collective species. For many people, behaviors aren't changed. Politicians are more concerned about making this into a Democrat vs Republican issue than they are with public health and saving lives.

 

I feel that, in America, some places (in regards to businesses, not the government) were all gung-ho about locking down and keeping safety the number one priority. Now that we're at something like 7 weeks in, places are opening back up because they just can't afford it anymore. I mean, I get it. But it's like, "Oh, we need to close to make sure that our employees stay safe", then as the weeks pass, "Well shit, I didn't think this was going to last this long. We can't afford this anymore, so fuck it, everybody back to work now."

 

The government, both federal and state/local have been trying to balance a public health vs. economy hit seesaw, and unfortunately with an extremely contagious virus, it doesn't work like that. You can't have it both ways. The easing of restrictions in certain aspects, and how things were slowly shut down, piece by piece (especially in Florida), doesn't do anything. They opened parks and marinas here at the end of last week, stating that you could go to the park or the marina if you respected social distancing and wore a mask. Guess what? Big surprise, social distancing was not respected at all and people were not wearing masks.

Not sure why, but your comment again brings me back to how this, like so many other things, aren't about the government coming in and saving the day. At a certain point, shit will run its course. You put the information out there in as credible and clear a way as possible and you leave people to make their own decisions. We don't really need the government to be telling people to stay home or to distance or to wear masks. As stated in many comments, it took them weeks to even get on the same page about those very basic preventative measures. At a certain point this, like most things, needs to just run its course. Yeah, it sucks and yeah there will be consequences to it, whether your careful or not. But people have the right to be stupid and they have the right to their own lives. Same way we don't outright ban cigarettes or McDonals or any number of things that we know implicitly kills you, this is that type of decision. Wear a mask, sanitize, social distance or engineer your life around not being around groups, or don't. We don't need the government to take responsibility for that. Sooner people wake up to the fact that in near every instance, government is the problem, the sooner they begin to realize the solution was in front of them all along... Themselves. Taking responsibility for your own actions, good and bad.

[Kalashnikov]

1 minute ago, misteraven said:

Not sure why, but your comment again brings me back to how this, like so many other things, aren't about the government coming in and saving the day. At a certain point, shit will run its course. You put the information out there in as credible and clear a way as possible and you leave people to make their own decisions. We don't really need the government to be telling people to stay home or to distance or to wear masks. As stated in many comments, it took them weeks to even get on the same page about those very basic preventative measures. At a certain point this, like most things, needs to just run its course. Yeah, it sucks and yeah there will be consequences to it, whether your careful or not. But people have the right to be stupid and they have the right to their own lives. Same way we don't outright ban cigarettes or McDonals or any number of things that we know implicitly kills you, this is that type of decision. Wear a mask, sanitize, social distance or engineer your life around not being around groups, or don't. We don't need the government to take responsibility for that. Sooner people wake up to the fact that in near every instance, government is the problem, the sooner they begin to realize the solution was in front of them all along... Themselves. Taking responsibility for your own actions, good and bad.

Right, but the difference between all of that is choice and control. You have the option to smoke cigarettes, you have the choice to eat McDonald's. If you want to do those things, it will only negatively impact you, minus secondhand smoke. You have the right to be stupid, and you have the right to kill yourself if you want.

 

Most people have to do what their company says. At the end of the day, most of us are slaves to corporate America. You can make the argument that you can quit your job if you're really worried about staying home; you have the option of doing that if you want but that also means you'll lose your home, might not eat, etc. So the choice is a difficult one.

[Kults]

everything’s gradually started to open up here. went to some drive in restaurant spot yesterday and everyone was out. felt like a tailgate party. lasted about an hour until cops came thru in a mini van blaring some dystopian stay 2 meters apart script. 

 

strange days 

[ndv]

1 minute ago, Kults said:

everything’s gradually started to open up here. went to some drive in restaurant spot yesterday and everyone was out. felt like a tailgate party. lasted about an hour until cops came thru in a mini van blaring some dystopian stay 2 meters apart script. 

 

strange days 

everywhere I go there is 6ft  markers everywhere, signs everywhere, some stores even have signs taped on the fronts doors warning customers that they have to have to wear face covering if they wanna shop. 

I am just wondering if the social distance thing is going to become the medium norm from now on?  I have a feeling, years down the road, there are going to be a lot of people who are still going to get offended if someone is too close to them...  IDK but this face covering thing has now become an enforcement not by government, but by corporate enforcement.

Which reminds me of a news segment I overheard yesterday,  basically, it was stated that Americans are not listening to what the government is saying, hence the protests.  so I am really curious on what steps and influence the government is having a hand in the big businesses to get people to comply.  I mean, I am sure by now everyone has noticed most of the televised commercials have at least something to do with COVID.  Again, IDK, but the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself...

 

[Kults]

My personal take is that you can’t force someone to comply at this point. What are they gonna do give half the population tickets? 

 

If someone’s that worried about it they should stay the fuck home and stfu. It isn’t going away anytime soon and the idea was to flatten the curb not isolate until it disappeared. Somehow it’s morphed into that with the fearmongering and screeching.  

 

Ride it out and be responsible for YOUR choices and let people do what they’re gonna do.

[Kalashnikov]

12 minutes ago, Kults said:

My personal take is that you can’t force someone to comply at this point. What are they gonna do give half the population tickets? 

 

If someone’s that worried about it they should stay the fuck home and stfu. It isn’t going away anytime soon and the idea was to flatten the curb not isolate until it disappeared. Somehow it’s morphed into that with the fearmongering and screeching.  

 

Ride it out and be responsible for YOUR choices and let people do what they’re gonna do.

The public health approach is to get it down to a containable level. Meaning, down far enough where you can trace it out. We're a long way from that in America, for sure. We were at that level in late February, maybe early March. It's not going to disappear, and we're still unsure about how good this virus is at mutating. So far I believe, don't quote me, there are two strains of COVID19 in the United States. For all we know, this thing might mutate every year. If it's good at mutating, we're pretty much fucked until we build up resistance or immunity, because even a vaccine will be for one of the strains.

 

It's not just a matter of "if you don't want to get sick, YOU stay home." The main problem is that we don't have the healthcare system capacity to deal with a huge spike. We've barely made it so far. Actions of individuals have consequences beyond just themselves. The people that go out, get infected, and spread it will end up overloading the healthcare system and then the shit will really hit the fan. People aren't just not going to go to the hospital when they get sick because they accepted the risks and went outside. They'll get sick and then they'll look for it to be fixed, like anyone else would.

 

It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens over the course of the year. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Kalashnikov

[Kults]

5 minutes ago, Kalashnikov said:

It's not just a matter of "if you don't want to get sick, YOU stay home." The main problem is that we don't have the healthcare system capacity to deal with a huge spike.

Ya the situations are a bit different. We've largely gotten a handle on that here so that's why they are gradually reopening. I'm all for timely containment to spread out the strain on hospitals but the idea was NOT to stay home until it went away. At least thats not what we were initially sold.

[Kults]

That 1984 Van Id mentioned

 

 

[Kalashnikov]

16 minutes ago, Kults said:

Ya the situations are a bit different. We've largely gotten a handle on that here so that's why they are gradually reopening. I'm all for timely containment to spread out the strain on hospitals but the idea was NOT to stay home until it went away. At least thats not what we were initially sold.

That's not feasible for any country really. There becomes a point for the government/economy where it's better to open everything back up than it is to keep everything shut down. Of course that is largely, if not almost totally dependent on the healthcare system.

 

There's also a lot that depends on other factors, density is a huge one. Overall, Australia is pretty close in size to the USA. Australia also has 7.5% of the population that the United States has (even though Australia's population is pretty much all along the coasts), so it makes it easier. I think if we were to open up New York City right now, we'd have some huge problems.