2020 U.S. Election

[Dark_Knight]

12 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

Fuck universal health care lmao

This was sarcasm by the way. I have rapid deteriorating health and I’d like to have access to free healthcare. Even though I have private insurance. It’s more logical to spend our money on the military tho. Gotta make sure our money goes to wars we don’t support and not our citizens health and well being.

[misteraven]

40 minutes ago, delv said:

Health should be accessible for all. 

Health care is accessible to all, you’re just supposed to pay for it for all but in the most extreme situations. No hospital is going to leave you to die because you didn’t show an insurance card. 
 

Go reread my previous post to Defy if you haven’t read it. Lot of people here are stuck in a weird in between like myself. I literally can’t afford it despite making an upper middle class salary. Ironic cause if I decided to not work, or be an “artist” and make shit money, my health insurance would be subsidized and I’d have it for cheap. 
 

But people seem to overlook that government inherently have zero of their own money. Every single penny they spend was taken from someone and then reallocated to someone or something else based on their own priorities or interests. It boggles my mind that anyone would entrust any aspect of their lives, let alone all the important shit, to strangers you’ve never met, probably never will meet, probably never voted for and certainly never will have your best interests in mind anywhere near the level that you, yourself will. 
 

This same thread, where just about everyone has stated they hate Trump, now wants him and all the assholes in Washington just like him, to do the right thing with your health care?! Does it really make sense that all the money they take from you, literally one quarter to one half of your income... Is going to be efficiently managed and spent in a way that aligns with your own morality and ethics?

 

Think about that... literally one quarter to one half of the year... You are a slave. Not one penny of that time period is yours... For 3 - 6 months you work and all the productivity of that time, energy and effort is extorted from you and the redistributed by strangers on the entire other side of the country... Many days drives away... Strangers that most can’t make or recognize, unless they hate them, and yet you’re going to trust them to do the right thing with the contribution you made being a slave to them?

 

Seriously, how does that make sense? Only way it’s at all logical is if you’re one of the people that can’t pay your own way, so you vote to allow these assholes power so they can extort from someone that has done better than you, to hopefully reallocate a tiny fraction of it your way so you can get “free” shit off the back of another slave that was able to be more productive than you were. 
 

That’s basically how this works. 

[Dark_Knight]

A hospital will let you die if you need a major surgery or chemo therapy/ any other expensive drug to survive. Yeah if you go in to the ER they’ll take care of you on a base level. But that statement isn’t accurate.

[misteraven]

37 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

A hospital will let you die if you need a major surgery or chemo therapy/ any other expensive drug to survive. Yeah if you go in to the ER they’ll take care of you on a base level. But that statement isn’t accurate.

they’re not going to just let you not figure out payment on something requiring prolonged treatment or scheduled, no. But if you get hit by a car or some other immediate emergency, they aren’t going to just not treat you. 

[Mercer]

3 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

A hospital will let you die if you need a major surgery or chemo therapy/ any other expensive drug to survive. Yeah if you go in to the ER they’ll take care of you on a base level. But that statement isn’t accurate.

 

It's selfish to assume random people should be forced to cover your basic expenses. If someone I didn't even know walked up and asked me to cover some super expensive surgery for them, I'd tell them to "fuck off, I already have a family to support". So would any hospital that wanted something as "selfish" as being able to stay in business, and help more people.

 

IT's all just perspective on where you think your circle of responsibilities ends, for me it's the people I've chosen to let in my circle, not the entire country/planet.

 

Besides, what's is more "greedy & selfish" really?

1. Person A: who want's to keep their own earnings/capitol to provide even better for their own family
2. Person B: person who want's to take away a complete stranger's earnings/capitol without that person's consent

 

[delv]

4 hours ago, Mercer said:

Besides, what's is more "greedy & selfish" really?

1. Person A: who want's to keep their own earnings/capitol to provide even better for their own family
2. Person B: person who want's to take away a complete stranger's earnings/capitol without that person's consent

 

lol, those statements are not at all fair or accurate to what free healthcare is all about. It's not like some bogeyman is just planning to get sick so they can steal your life savings. It's about healthcare for all, not matter what your personal monetary situation is. The only selfish thing here is you. It's not selfish for the strong to lift up and care for the weak. It's not selfish to say that anyone in any situation gets the same level of healthcare as everyone else. It's not selfish to help each other out.

Someone mentioned it but I can't find it now, but I think this thinking comes from your individualist as opposed to collectivist culture. Unfortunately, Australia is going a similar way and this worries me, personally.
 

9 hours ago, misteraven said:

Go reread my previous post to Defy if you haven’t read it. Lot of people here are stuck in a weird in between like myself. I literally can’t afford it despite making an upper middle class salary. Ironic cause if I decided to not work, or be an “artist” and make shit money, my health insurance would be subsidized and I’d have it for cheap. 

 

I think your reply here indicates what we all know which is that is there is a fundamental problem with the USA government and the capitalism influence on politics and healthcare alike. My question here is, what y'all doing about it?

I'm curious if you were in your same financial position you are saying you are today (earn good money but still you can't afford healthcare) and were living in a country with public healthcare, would you likely still be taking home the same amount of money you are today? I reckon you wouldn't notice a marginal difference.

 

-----

I'm really intrigued if those in the USA get to see what percentages of their taxes go where. Like, do you get to see a breakdown of exactly where your personal tax dollars are going? I'm in Australia and after I lodge my tax I get a pie chart that breaks down of $X I paid in tax where each $ went. Each year I am surprised just how little goes to public health (the most money goes to defence).

 

I am and always will be pro-public health for all, but I recognise that the issue the USA faces in implementing a similar system is the broken government.

[Dark_Knight]

In America, we’ve been conditioned to sympathize towards the rich and ostracize the common man. To deny basic human rights as a first world country but support dated tax funded spending. The delusions of grandeur are strong in the land of the free.

 

[Dirty_habiT]

On 10/17/2020 at 8:46 AM, delv said:

Y'all sound like you've never lived in a country with public "free" healthcare before.

 

It's not like you work a job and then have to pay for old mate sick ass hospital bills directly. It's just something your income tax goes toward. You already pay tax, do you know/care where it goes? Doesn't upset you it pays for shit you don't get to use?

 

With public healthcare it means that if anyone gets sick, or is born with a disability or has an accident, they are taken care of at a high level for no further out of pocket expense. We still have private health insurance if you can afford it and want additional options, but for the most part nothing will ever get in the way of you obtaining healthcare when you need it. 

 

Honestly, it's glorious. I've had 2 kids born in my states best hosptial and the total out of pocket was $0. Yes of course I've paid taxes for years where a percentage goes toward funding public health, but so have all the other citizens.  I don't give a fuck as I want access for me and my family and also for everyone else that needs it. It's the decent thing to do. 

 

Health should be accessible for all. 

 

 

 

You are right, I have not lived in a country with free healthcare.  But here's the thing, IMO I already live in the best country on this planet.... I'm fine with that, and I'm fine with people not agreeing with my opinion.  There is no way in hell I would consider for even a little bit to move to a country where they're taxed higher to pay for other peoples' programs.

 

The problem is USA is stuff that doesn't just affect your mate's health when he get's sick.  It affects things like abortion.  Get an abortion if you were raped.... but we need to stop paying for these college lushes to just dump off a bloody fetus every time she picked the wrong dude at the frat party that weekend.  I absolutely don't want to pay for that.  We don't have to get all into how irresponsible this behavior is for the boys involved as well.  I say boys because smart men don't make such decisions.

 

I know that my tax, right now, goes to stuff I don't use.  I'm in a tax bracket that means I have to pay more in taxes than many people make in a year.  Put that in your pipe and smoke on it for a minute.  Nobody GAVE me this,  I worked to earn it.... and because of that, I don't want my money leaving my hands to pay for party pussy in downtown to get an abortion.  That is a direct example of why I don't want universal healthcare.  It's because "most people" aren't smart enough to make a long winning streak of ONLY smart decisions.  I don't want to foot the bill for other peoples' stupidity, they don't do it for mine.  I've eaten the shit sandwich I made for myself every time.

 

Healthcare IS accessible for everyone right now ..... that wants to work and pull their own weight.  Nobody in this country is "denied healthcare" like the media in places would have you believe.  You just have to live with the bills you create for yourself by using it.  I avoid the medical "industry" vehemently because it's a bunch of scam shit IMO.  There are no free services.  You seem to not understand that there is no way to pay for healthcare for everyone without making people like me pay more of what I'm earning into the system.

 

Congratulations on the 2 little ones you had delivered for free, but why would you have kids if you couldn't afford to have them delivered at the hospital (not saying that at you @delv)?  It is that kind of half assed planning that I absolutely do not want to support with my money.

[Dirty_habiT]

On 10/17/2020 at 8:59 AM, Dark_Knight said:

This was sarcasm by the way. I have rapid deteriorating health and I’d like to have access to free healthcare. Even though I have private insurance. It’s more logical to spend our money on the military tho. Gotta make sure our money goes to wars we don’t support and not our citizens health and well being.

 

I'm sorry to hear that.  I will say that if we don't have a military then it won't matter who has healthcare because we will just be doing what some other country that wants to overthrow us wants us to do.

 

It, also, is not military OR healthcare.  From the sounds of it, it doesn't matter how much money could be thrown at a rapidly deteriorating health problem to change anything about it.  I guess unless your Magic Johnson.

 

Without getting specific, is there anything that you're "missing out on" because we don't have free healthcare in USA?

 

I'd really like to hear people just get that idea out of their head all together.  We have freedom here, there are so many people that won't agree with paying for universal healthcare in USA.  I think it's a garbage idea and will vote against it and anyone for it..... every single last time..... no matter what my health is doing.

[Dark_Knight]

Freedom is very subjective. 

 

As of 2018, about a quarter of every dollar of income tax go towards military spending. We spend something like 6x more on military than China. And no other country is even in the same ball park. No one is fucking with america ever. No matter what we spend. 
 
Mutual assured destruction makes excessive spending a little frivolous at this point. And when biological warfare is the future, artillery doesn’t do much. 

There’s probably plenty other places, beyond military, that get our tax dollars as well, but I don’t feel like doing the digging at the moment.

 

Health and we’ll being of you’re citizens should be top priority for any first world country. Health care doesn’t equal socialism either.

[Kults]

1 hour ago, Dark_Knight said:

Health care odoesn’t equal socialism either.

 

medicare for all does

[misteraven]

Going to take a lot of chasing our tails to undo years of systematic brainwashing by the public education system, mainstream media and all the other channels used to manipulate people and what they think. 
 

The government has no money of their own. Under zero circumstances, regardless of any intent... good or bad... is it okay to forcefully... under the threat of violence... take the productivity of one human and then redistribute it.

 

Even if we could all agree and see that it’s spent on freakin curing cancer and world peace, which it most obviously is not, would stealing from someone be okay. It’s literally no different than any other type of extortion, except for the fact that the government has decided for itself that it’s okay for them to partake. 
 

Crazy how this is even a discussion. Details of where the money is going is irrelevant and what it’s being spent on is irrelevant. Even if they can prove it’s all being invested in you, and that they are actually good at that (neither of which is true), they are still forcefully taking from you to do as they will. They extort your money (productivity) under the threat of violence and the reallocate it to however they see fit. This is not okay and it’s retarded to argue in circles trying to justify it. If you want to give your money away cool... If you want to give up half your waking hours to charitable causes cool... It stops being okay when you force someone into this fucked up system. 
 

But we all know that the very vast majority of that money does not get spent on things that are in your best interest. In fact,  there’s only the most basic levels of transparency and very little accountability. 

[Qawee]

 

if i'm paying taxes, i would rather have my tax dollars go to pay for someones health care than a drone strike on a wedding in rural pakistan

[misteraven]

6 minutes ago, Qawee said:

 

if i'm paying taxes, i would rather have my tax dollars go to pay for someones health care than a drone strike on a wedding in rural pakistan

Point is you shouldn’t be paying taxes. It’s a slippery slope. Up to 1913, nobody had to pay taxes. Then suddenly it was decided a couple point on your income to do your patriotic duty fit the war effort as well as invest in infrastructure was okay. 
 

Here we are over 100 years later paying 25 - 50% of your income to support a government and its agendas that essentially operate above the law, make rules for you that they themselves are exempt from and with I believe all but a couple being millionaires despite a great many not having had a job outside public service for most of their careers. 
 

So to say it’s okay, just so long as some people can get “free” healthcare and maybe some other “free” stuff is just a poor argument. Want to subsidize other people... Sign up for a co-op. Forcing everyone to participate is immoral and sits at the opposite end of a “free society”. 

[misteraven]

Side note... Congress’ power to impose an income tax was granted under the 16th amendment. Not that they ever would, but legally it means it can be repealed unlike the first 10 amendments (Bill of Rights). 
 

 

[Mercer]

Re reading my previous comment it comes off (unintentionally) hostile since I'm trying to focus entirely on the moral aspect of the socialized medicine debate.

 

Arguing the morality of non-aggression perspective is very difficult, as most people are so convinced the only/best method for shaping society is the underlying threat of state violence, AKA things like taxes and other victimless crimes. It's like explaining to a parent beating their kids isn't the only, or believe it or not best way to raise their kids. It's such a foreign thought, it's difficult for people trying to grasp it for the first time to understand. There's really no way to make your point without offending the parent.

 

Arguing the merits of a system designed around individual freedoms, rather than one based on collective well being is difficult because people forget you actually do care about the collective well being, and without repeating that constantly, people from different perspectives assume you only care about yourself.

 

I'm advocating a system where no forcible threat of force is used to shape behavior (outside of addressing crime) and of course it brings with it immediate skepticism because while it's growing faster with things like crypto currency, this isn't a perspective endorsed by mainstream society yet. Most people just put you in the opposite camp they are in, and argue straw man positions against either the "left" or "right" since those are the only arguments they understand well.

 

The moral argument I failed at focusing on in my previous post boils down to this: Isn't it always more appealing to judge other peoples actions than your own? Like how many times do we look at someone else and think "look at this greedy asshole, wanting to horde money while (his distant neighbor somewhere he has no more responsibility than you for) is starving". Meanwhile, the person making this judgement is does the same thing themselves. If followed to it's logical consistency nobody should make a decision on what's best for themselves ever.

 

Outside of the moral perspective, there's this falsely held mainstream belief that economics is a "zero sum game", meaning someone needs to be fucked over, for someone else to advance. Once this false belief is established subliminally, making an honest living becomes immoral if you're too successful at it (judging others), and deciding what to do with someone else's earnings becomes the right thing to do. This is a better explanation of the moral argument I'm trying to make.

 

The reality is, economics is far from a zero sum game, productivity, wise investment, and innovation is what creates enough to actually go around.

 

Taking good or service-X, away from one person by threat of force, and giving it to another (even in the abstract way taxation does it) doesn't make more of good or service-X to go around. In fact, it does the opposite taking away the incentive to be productive.

 

Like why would anyone take that high stress job, work overtime, bother taking their company to the next level if they're only going to pay more taxes, and bring home the same money. This lack of incentives create a ripple effect leading to less overall. Worst part is because this ripple effect is impossible to quantify, so people act as though incentives (outside of the threat of force) don't even exist.

 

I don't think socializing medicine via taxes will ever magically increase the capacity of healthcare AKA create more. It just increases costs artificially, and lowers the overall quality for the vast majority of people. It's why people with money have to fly away from their socialist paradise if they seek even slightly better than the one size fit's all solutions in their own socialist utopias around the world. Those people fly here.

 

If you base your policy on a falsely held moral perspective these economic realities become meaningless. Next thing you know you're content with the majority of people paying more/receiving less healthcare, classic Marxist unintended consequence.

 

Where are all these extra medical supplies, employee hours, and efforts going to come from without paying more? I don't just mean more in the relative sense, like we need to hire 10% more doctors to meet increased strain on the system.I mean like how much more will wages/incentives in that sector need to go up to attract more talent? This is never accounted for and long waiting lists, and sub par health care are the result.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Mercer

[Dark_Knight]

16 minutes ago, misteraven said:

Point is you shouldn’t be paying taxes. It’s a slippery slope. Up to 1913, nobody had to pay taxes. Then suddenly it was decided a couple point on your income to do your patriotic duty fit the war effort as well as invest in infrastructure was okay. 
 

Here we are over 100 years later paying 25 - 50% of your income to support a government and its agendas that essentially operate above the law, make rules for you that they themselves are exempt from and with I believe all but a couple being millionaires despite a great many not having had a job outside public service for most of their careers. 
 

So to say it’s okay, just so long as some people can get “free” healthcare and maybe some other “free” stuff is just a poor argument. Want to subsidize other people... Sign up for a co-op. Forcing everyone to participate is immoral and sits at the opposite end of a “free society”. 

I completely agree, but the reality is that we have to pay taxes. Since I have to pay taxes, I’d rather it go towards the health and well being of our people. 

[Kults]

6 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

I completely agree, but the reality is that we have to pay taxes. Since I have to pay taxes, I’d rather it go towards the health and well being of our people. 

 

 

I’d rather have a great infrastructure and pay for healthcare myself. Not having to wait 18 hours while bleeding in the ER would also be a plus. 

 

Not sure where you’re from but we have Medicare for all here in Canada. It’s an absolute disaster. Not to mention shit tier medical services. Anywhere with private healthcare pays 10x better so the best doctors leave ( who could blame them). 

 

Anyone with money or good insurance high tails it to the states for treatment for anything serious. Take a wild guess if they get any of the money they’ve sank into the system here back...

 

E: we are also one of the most taxed nations on earth because of it. Oh and our military is tiny so there goes that scapegoat 

[Mercer]

Getting an ulcer diagnosed, and treated properly took one of my 12oz homies from Montreal 2 years with bullshit follow up visits until he gave up, read up on it himself, and figured out he had a specific gut bacteria causing an ulcer. I still think back to how much he enjoyed great food and all of a sudden he was eating Tums, had poor overall health and was suffering for a long time. Took two weeks to clear up with a prescription. Could have taken years to diagnose if he didn't do the research himself.

[Dark_Knight]

I have friends in Canada that tell me to come there for medication. Not necessarily for health care. 
 

I live 10 minutes from the Cleveland Clinic, so as  far as doctors and specialty care go, I’m pretty blessed. 
 

That view seems to be very conflicting with my friends views. I’m sure there’s truth to both. 
 

Have a friend in’s Switzerland as well who thinks we’re foolish for resisting it. 
 

I don’t have the answers, no one does. I just think we should catch up with the rest of the civilized world.

[misteraven]

10 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

 

I don’t have the answers, no one does. I just think we should catch up with the rest of the civilized world.

“We” is the problem with this statement. I’m am whole heartedly uninterested in participating and morally, it’s simply wrong to force me to participate, particularly under the threat of violence. 
 

You do you, let me do me. 

[Dark_Knight]

1 minute ago, misteraven said:

“We” is the problem with this statement. I’m am whole heartedly uninterested in participating and morally, it’s simply wrong to force me to participate, particularly under the threat of violence. 
 

You do you, let me do me. 

 
I don’t think anyone is threatening with violence. At least not that I know of. 
 

If you start a 12oz commune I’ll join. 

[Mercer]

2 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

 
I don’t think anyone is threatening with violence. At least not that I know of. 

 

This is how taxes work, a direct threat of violence. The State decides you owe them, if you don't comply, violence.

[Kults]

32 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Getting an ulcer diagnosed, and treated properly took one of my 12oz homies from Montreal 2 years with bullshit follow up visits until he gave up, read up on it himself, and figured out he had a specific gut bacteria causing an ulcer. I still think back to how much he enjoyed great food and all of a sudden he was eating Tums, had poor overall health and was suffering for a long time. Took two weeks to clear up with a prescription. Could have taken years to diagnose if he didn't do the research himself.

 

 

This is all too common up here. 

[Kults]

29 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

I have friends in Canada that tell me to come there for medication. Not necessarily for health care. 
 

I live 10 minutes from the Cleveland Clinic, so as  far as doctors and specialty care go, I’m pretty blessed. 
 

That view seems to be very conflicting with my friends views. I’m sure there’s truth to both. 
 

Have a friend in’s Switzerland as well who thinks we’re foolish for resisting it. 
 

I don’t have the answers, no one does. I just think we should catch up with the rest of the civilized world.

 

 

they’re right in saying that about meds. it’s about the only upside. the gov hammers out deals with generic pill manufacturers to get boatloads of cheap knock off meds so the bloated system can even pay for it at all. 

 

grass always greener kinda thing for sure but trust me, I’ve lived under this dumpster fire of a medical system  my entire life and it’s absolute trash. you over pay when you don’t need to and when you finally do need it, the service you get is so poor it cements the fact that you payed for fuck all for years. 

[Mercer]

A better solution to prescription drugs is ending patent enforcement.

[Dark_Knight]

1 minute ago, Mercer said:

 

This is how taxes work, a direct threat of violence. The State decides you owe them, if you don't comply, violence.

Incarceration I suppose. But taxes are an unfortunate fact of life. I just don’t see why healthcare is the final straw for people to be fed up. 
 

Like @Qaweesaid “ if i'm paying taxes, i would rather have my tax dollars go to pay for someones health care than a drone strike on a wedding in rural pakistan”

[Kults]

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/categories/health-care-wait-times

 

”The total wait time that patients face can be examined in two consecutive segments. [1] From referral by a general practi- tioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 8.7 weeks in 2018 to 10.1 weeks in 2019. This wait time is 173% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Quebec (7.2 weeks) while the longest occur in Prince Edward Island (28.8 weeks). [2] From the consultation with a special- ist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment decreased from 11.0 weeks in
2018 to 10.8 weeks this year. This wait time is 92% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and about three and one-half weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically
“reasonable” (7.2 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (8.0 weeks), while the longest are in Prince Edward Island (20.5 weeks).
It is estimated that, across the 10 provinces, the total num- ber of procedures for which people are waiting in 2019 is 1,062,286. This means that, assuming that each person waits for only one procedure, 2.9% of Canadians are waiting for treatment in 2019. The proportion of the population waiting for treatment varies from a low of 1.7% in Quebec to a high of 5.8% in Nova Scotia. It is important to note that physicians report that only about 12.1% of their patients are on a waiting
list because they requested a delay or postponement.”

 

and it’s only getting worse. this isn’t sustainable. 

[Mercer]

2 minutes ago, Dark_Knight said:

taxes are an unfortunate fact of life.

 

 Sort of like medical expenses, racism, and the fact we're all going to die?

 

The fact is, out of those three things we can actually do something about eliminating taxes. 

[Dark_Knight]

47 minutes ago, Mercer said:

 

 Sort of like medical expenses, racism, and the fact we're all going to die?

 

The fact is, out of those three things we can actually do something about eliminating taxes. 

What can we do? Defund the military?