2020 U.S. Election

[Dark_Knight]

1 minute ago, misteraven said:

Funny that you just accurately described the electoral college yet, imply it’s a bad thing.
 

I’ve noticed that it always seems those that cry loudest for democracy also seem to not like the electoral college despite it being engineered to keep balance amongst the majority. If we had no electoral college basically there’s be no point in even voting since NYC and CA would literally decide every vote. 

the states wouldn’t have a vote. The people in the states as individuals would have votes. And yes more people live in those states. 

[Dirty_habiT]

1 hour ago, Dark_Knight said:

Large populated areas, like the east coast, and California, etc. Will always vote Democrat. They have dense population of highly educated people.

 

I'm not sure this is a relation I would imply.  I've met a ton of people that consider themselves smart, educated, and democrat/left/antifa/illegal/muslim/wtfever you want to identify as today..... and the common thread I've seen, at times, is that they suffer from not realizing that they're not as smart as they think they are.  I am not saying on a whole, I'm saying that it's not uncommon to see this in people that believe or think a certain way.  They consider and view themselves to be way more intellectual than they actually are. 

 

I overcame the challenge within myself ~7 years ago.  I remember when it happened and I now have a more open mind about nearly any perspective that someone presents.  I concede that I am far from an expert in MANY things, and I only know a lot about a few things, and that's even arguable about whether I know "alot".... without knowing what the entire sum of knowledge on a subject looks like.  I only think I know a lot... and I only think I'm kinda smart..... I don't know for a fact though and this is a much better attitude than just saying, I'm smart, I'm educated, I'm right, and who are you again, an idiot republican?

 

The "educated" that you speak of are close minded, dismissive, and somewhat brainwashed from "consuming" liberal school degrees and media.

 

So, I wouldn't wear a college degree as a badge of honor.... unless it's a degree in something that is..... actually important to the world and not to "your personal interests" (art degrees) or "how much money you want to make" (politicians/doctors/lawyers).  That is not to suggest that there's anything wrong with getting those other degrees either, but I just wouldn't go around speaking authoritatively as if you're just "educated".

[misteraven]

1 hour ago, Dark_Knight said:

the states wouldn’t have a vote. The people in the states as individuals would have votes. And yes more people live in those states. 

 

At the time the electoral college was implemented, it was little different than today. You had huge population densities, back then in Boston, now in NYC / LA. So if we based elections off popular vote, it would always be decided by those population dense concentrations.  And again, now as it was before, the culture and values in a country as large as ours are hugely diverse. People in NYC can't imagine the day to dat life of people in Montana and vice versa. Why would anyone agree to have their lives dictated by a population that doesn't begin to understand their reality, let alone their values? 

 

You need to understand that when all this started, you had individual states that had absolute freedom from centralized government. The only reason they agreed to form a union and allow representational government was because they managed to reach a compromise that took the form of the Bill of Rights, a document that was intended to constrain central government, as well as a framework for representational democracy, which is the electoral college system. There would have been no incentive for them to trade that new found liberty from King George to instead hand it off to another authority that could impose it's will on the people. That's super fundamental and honestly, as true then as it is now. If you abolished the electoral college, you can bet that the union would dissolve. Frankly, its pretty amazing that states like Texas haven't already done so since they really don't need the benefits offered by being in the union, since they have plenty of natural resources, a major port and even their own power grid that is separate from that of the rest of the USA.

 

This concept is truly fundamental and if you stop and consider it's reason for being, as well as what the country would look like without it, you'd see how its also pretty obvious. The USA is not even a democracy as most people keep saying. It was founded as a constitutional republic that allows for aspects of governing beyond a concise listing of natural rights to be debated and implemented in a democratic type fashion.

 

Benjamin Franklin himself described democracy as...

 

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what they are going to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”

 

That's precisely right and why we have the system we have.

[misteraven]

2 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

Large populated areas, like the east coast, and California, etc. Will always vote Democrat. They have dense population of highly educated people. 

 

Correlation does not always equal causation.

[Dark_Knight]

59 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

 

I'm not sure this is a relation I would imply.  I've met a ton of people that consider themselves smart, educated, and democrat/left/antifa/illegal/muslim/wtfever you want to identify as today..... and the common thread I've seen, at times, is that they suffer from not realizing that they're not as smart as they think they are.  I am not saying on a whole, I'm saying that it's not uncommon to see this in people that believe or think a certain way.  They consider and view themselves to be way more intellectual than they actually are. 

 

I overcame the challenge within myself ~7 years ago.  I remember when it happened and I now have a more open mind about nearly any perspective that someone presents.  I concede that I am far from an expert in MANY things, and I only know a lot about a few things, and that's even arguable about whether I know "alot".... without knowing what the entire sum of knowledge on a subject looks like.  I only think I know a lot... and I only think I'm kinda smart..... I don't know for a fact though and this is a much better attitude than just saying, I'm smart, I'm educated, I'm right, and who are you again, an idiot republican?

 

The "educated" that you speak of are close minded, dismissive, and somewhat brainwashed from "consuming" liberal school degrees and media.

 

So, I wouldn't wear a college degree as a badge of honor.... unless it's a degree in something that is..... actually important to the world and not to "your personal interests" (art degrees) or "how much money you want to make" (politicians/doctors/lawyers).  That is not to suggest that there's anything wrong with getting those other degrees either, but I just wouldn't go around speaking authoritatively as if you're just "educated".

I suppose that came off more callus than I intended. Education is definitely not synonymous with intelligence. I don’t have a degree. I also don’t consider myself particularly intelligent. Although I am capable of critical thought. Which was what I was eluding to. What I meant was that having greater access to education give more opportunity to have access to knowledge. Thinking critically depends on the person, but having options in the city that aren’t available to those in rural areas May give someone who isn’t a self starter and opportunity to think differently. 
 

Saying that, cities are also riddled with herd following commies that hide behind their education. 
 

 

[Dark_Knight]

Where I get confused is how people can praise the electoral college but also push the agenda of having little government as possible. 
 

This is another subject entirely, but same goes with republicans who are hardcore police state but say they don’t want the government dictating what they do. 
 

It’s contradictory.

 

Edit: also appreciate being able to debate with people who think differently than I do. Maybe if more people were willing to have these talks, our country wouldn’t be so polarized.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Dark_Knight

[abrasivesaint]

8 hours ago, Dirty_habiT said:

he does not and absolutely will not support corruption

 

🤨

[misteraven]

5 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

Where I get confused is how people can praise the electoral college but also push the agenda of having little government as possible. 
 

This is another subject entirely, but same goes with republicans who are hardcore police state but say they don’t want the government dictating what they do. 
 

It’s contradictory.

 

Edit: also appreciate being able to debate with people who think differently than I do. Maybe if more people were willing to have these talks, our country wouldn’t be so polarized.

true indeed. both parties have strayed so far from their respective party ideologies that it’s hard to even classify them as a member of said party.

whole thing is just theater that pits everyone arguing with each other while they carry along as they please, knowing that they’ll exchange power with each other about 50% of the time. that’s why they’ll talk a big game about “lock her / him up” but never act on it or ever take it too far. behind closed doors, they’re divvying up the spoils gathered from all the assholes that spend so much time arguing, they can’t begin to see how badly they’re being played. 

[Mercer]

Honest question, what is the most meaningful policy difference between Biden and Trump? 

[Dirty_habiT]

17 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

I suppose that came off more callus than I intended. Education is definitely not synonymous with intelligence. I don’t have a degree. I also don’t consider myself particularly intelligent. Although I am capable of critical thought. Which was what I was eluding to. What I meant was that having greater access to education give more opportunity to have access to knowledge. Thinking critically depends on the person, but having options in the city that aren’t available to those in rural areas May give someone who isn’t a self starter and opportunity to think differently. 
 

Saying that, cities are also riddled with herd following commies that hide behind their education. 
 

 

 

I think this will change soon as internet is able to reach rural areas more.  One reason I "like the city" right now is because I have google fiber.  When I move out to the country, there will be no google fiber, so there will be no awesome mostly lag free Street Fighter 5 matches online.  That's a tangent, but the internet speed that allows gameplay like that also allows research.

 

I have learned and done so much on the internet in my time that I think any normal person would consider it ridiculous.  People are just now, in the last 10 years or so, starting to realize the value that we originally had with the internet in that "you can go learn anything you want."

 

Step back and think for a moment.... what that really means.  That means, that there are people out there that understand every subject that you could learn in a school, perhaps these people are even teachers of those subjects in those schools.... and they're teaching how to do things online, for free with their spare time because they want to help the world be a better place.

 

This is where we should refocus our efforts.  We should be learning things that help us and help our neighbors.  I'm not talking about trying to save the whole world right now, but if every communit is doing the same thing then the "world will save itself".

 

One of my brothers doesn't have a degree either and he just got hired at one of the big tech companies, yes it's one that you're thinking of..... as a Senior Network Design Engineer.  He's only been there for 1 month and he's already getting an award from his boss's boss for an idea he proposed that is "most likely to become skynet".

 

You don't need these expensive schools.  That's what we should be setting on fire after we digitize all their books.  The money people save could go to paying for private tutors/classes online.  I recently payed for a LinuxAcademy.com subscription because it's relevant to my industry.  If I leverage the classes and get certifications there is absolutely ZERO reason I couldn't be out there making 400k/yr salary.

 

If you really want to wake up to what you're missing by doing "the normal thing that society has funneled you into doing", just get on teamblind.com and go poke around that forum a bit. 😉

 

/tangent

[Dirty_habiT]

17 hours ago, Dark_Knight said:

Where I get confused is how people can praise the electoral college but also push the agenda of having little government as possible. 
 

This is another subject entirely, but same goes with republicans who are hardcore police state but say they don’t want the government dictating what they do. 
 

It’s contradictory.

 

Edit: also appreciate being able to debate with people who think differently than I do. Maybe if more people were willing to have these talks, our country wouldn’t be so polarized.

 

I can lend my opinion on the "republicans wanting a hardcore police state but wanting freedom to do what they want from the govt."

 

I enjoy every liberty afforded to me by this Great Nation.  I don't want a "police state".  What I do want is law enforcement that I can call upon when things get a bit too thick for me to handle myself, if you catch my drift.

 

The government doesn't really "dictate" what I do.  I feel like I'm the captain of my own ship here.  I've worked hared to do what I've done and I continue to do the same thing to move forward and up in life.  The worst thing I could complain about are taxes being too high.

 

That's really kind of it.  I'd like to see the police do more traffic enforcement in regards to cell phone usage and cruising in the passing lane.  I know that's making @Mercercringe probably because it's considered a "victimless crime".

 

The German autobahn doesn't allow cruising the passing lane and there are heavy penalties for getting caught doing it.  Guess what.... traffic flows like a mother fucker there, I'd imagine.  I'd like the police to straighten up our drivers.

 

I'd like the government to make the licensing requirements to drive a motor vehicle more difficult rather than lowering the bar to where anyone of questionable skill level and character can drive a car.  It should be like anything else, you must demonstrate proficiency... blhablahblahgb I could go on and on.

 

I'm going to get some work done before work starts today..... so I can get ahead of the game here.   Thank you for listening to my ted talk.

 

 

[Dark_Knight]

3 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

 

I think this will change soon as internet is able to reach rural areas more.  One reason I "like the city" right now is because I have google fiber.  When I move out to the country, there will be no google fiber, so there will be no awesome mostly lag free Street Fighter 5 matches online.  That's a tangent, but the internet speed that allows gameplay like that also allows research.

 

I have learned and done so much on the internet in my time that I think any normal person would consider it ridiculous.  People are just now, in the last 10 years or so, starting to realize the value that we originally had with the internet in that "you can go learn anything you want."

 

Step back and think for a moment.... what that really means.  That means, that there are people out there that understand every subject that you could learn in a school, perhaps these people are even teachers of those subjects in those schools.... and they're teaching how to do things online, for free with their spare time because they want to help the world be a better place.

 

This is where we should refocus our efforts.  We should be learning things that help us and help our neighbors.  I'm not talking about trying to save the whole world right now, but if every communit is doing the same thing then the "world will save itself".

 

One of my brothers doesn't have a degree either and he just got hired at one of the big tech companies, yes it's one that you're thinking of..... as a Senior Network Design Engineer.  He's only been there for 1 month and he's already getting an award from his boss's boss for an idea he proposed that is "most likely to become skynet".

 

You don't need these expensive schools.  That's what we should be setting on fire after we digitize all their books.  The money people save could go to paying for private tutors/classes online.  I recently payed for a LinuxAcademy.com subscription because it's relevant to my industry.  If I leverage the classes and get certifications there is absolutely ZERO reason I couldn't be out there making 400k/yr salary.

 

If you really want to wake up to what you're missing by doing "the normal thing that society has funneled you into doing", just get on teamblind.com and go poke around that forum a bit. 😉

 

/tangent

Yeah I used Lynda and good old fashioned self motivated studying to get my career (that has been taken from me. Thanks Covid/Obama). 
 

My job requires a degree as well, but I genuinely feel that, unless you’re going into the medical field, there’s really no reason to waste your money on school when everything you need to know is online. 
 

I learned an entirely new language for free thanks to the internet. It’s all a matter of self discipline when it comes to that. Some people need the school structure and accountability that comes along with it in order to learn. 

[Dirty_habiT]

12 hours ago, Mercer said:

Honest question, what is the most meaningful policy difference between Biden and Trump? 

 

I'd say the immediate difference I can tell is that the Biden/Camel-a house absolutely refuses to answer what their tax plan is.  (please correct me if i'm wrong)

 

I just read this quote on a site that was definitely far from unbiased:

 

"Support raising the national minimum wage and raise marginal tax rates to the highest income earners."

 

That is Biden's policy.... apparently....

 

"Propose tax cut to stimulate economic growth"

 

That is Trump's...

 

I don't think the way they worded Trump's is very accurate, but I can tell you that they seem to have worded Biden's policy to reflect well his meaning.  I trust that it is genuinely true, in contrast to what they said Trump's policy was.

 

However, the point is... for reasons we've covered in other threads before, you cannot simply raise the minimum wage.  There are profound economic shifts that would take place as a result that obviously don't make sense to the people that think raising the wage is good.  Basically more $$ != more $$ like the proponents of minimum wage hikes would have you believe it does.

 

  != is does NOT equal for anyone that doesn't do programming.

 

 

[misteraven]

12 hours ago, Mercer said:

Honest question, what is the most meaningful policy difference between Biden and Trump? 

Approach to foreign policy. Night and day. 

[Kults]

4 minutes ago, misteraven said:

Approach to foreign policy. Night and day. 

One tweets about how they’re cunts and the other sends his crack head son to collect the monthly bill

 

e: if it wasn’t clear I prefer the former 

[misteraven]

37 minutes ago, Kults said:

One tweets about how they’re cunts and the other sends his crack head son to collect the monthly bill

 

e: if it wasn’t clear I prefer the former 

 

Wasn't even referring to that. Anyone remember how Russia would buzz the Alaskan coast on a near daily basis under Obama. Obviously they were toying with us and likely probing for intel including responses and times, etc, but was a normal thing. Remember when Iran actually boarded a US Navy vessel and held the crew claiming the violated sovereign waters? Remember when we flew several plane loads with billions of dollars in cash, in an unprecedented and absolutely untraceable transaction because we owed Iran "reparations". 

 

I'm not saying we should be out bullying the world. I can make and respect a strong argument that we shouldn't be out and about the way we are with our military like the humanity's last great hope, but people would be laughably biased to acknowledge that Obama emboldened our enemies and that allowing that to continue would no doubt lead to a catastrophe.

 

Again, I don't think we've seen a president in our life times that was mostly good over bad such that you could just say dude was a great guy. Likewise, even taking that stance is a slippery slope that does all of us and our country a huge disservice. These guys need to be judged case by case, systematically on every effort, failure and accomplishment with zero tolerance for error, whether intentional or not.

 

But yeah, Trump has done some great things and he's done plenty of foul shit. Obama and all the clowns in DC as well. There's been nothing particularly great about any of them, only specific actions that have been successful (generally the exception and not the rule). Too bad people are so blinded by partisanship that they can't see how basic this concept is, so we're stuck arguing with each other and then end up in a presidential race with two clowns like Trump and freakin Biden.

 

Pathetic, but we've earned every bit of that. 

[Kults]

I completely agree. I was taking the piss on the recent biden situation 

[Kults]

best political ad yet

 

 

[abrasivesaint]

In terms of foreign policy, i have an issue with what is currently going on in Azerbaijan and Armenia and the lack of any intervention by the US.

I have been saying this for a while, but i find it no coincidence Turkey is making moves in the world and it is one of the very few places Trump owns international property. I think they are emboldened, and he is allowing it because of his personal business. Obviously he is not the first or only person to do shit like this, but that’s not what i’m talking about, 2 wrongs dont make a right and all that. 

It took until 2019 for the US to “acknowledge” the Armenian genocide at the hands of Turkey, something Trump was outspoken against. The US abandoned our Kurdish allies in Syria, and Turkey immediately attacked them. 
 

I’m no investigative journalist, and i’m not about to spend my life diving into this, but something fucking stinks, and i don’t think it’s a deep as some might think. I think Trump benefits from business in Turkey so he doesn’t give a fuck what they do. If he tightened the grasp on them i think his personal business would suffer. 

I’ve read and heard concerns from people domestically and internationally that the US is losing, or lost, depending on your opinion, our position in the world. Turkey, Russia, China, and other countries will happily fill the spaces in that void. I don’t think it’s as simple as bring the troops home and everything will be hunky dory for the US. 

[Kults]

1 hour ago, abrasivesaint said:

I’ve read and heard concerns from people domestically and internationally that the US is losing, or lost, depending on your opinion, our position in the world. Turkey, Russia, China, and other countries will happily fill the spaces in that void. I don’t think it’s as simple as bring the troops home and everything will be hunky dory for the US. 

I never thought i’d live to see the liberals become the warhawks but I agree. 

 

Not sure it’s because Trump has any interests in the region though, that seems like a bit of a stretch 

[misteraven]

Disagree... World needs to figure out its own problems. We have plenty of our own and it’s a slippery slope, not to mention stepping stone to facilitate corruption anytime we decide to go meddle. 
 

Their monkeys, their circus. Everyone sitting around all day complaining about the USA, but then crying foul when we don’t volunteer our resources, can go screw. 

[misteraven]

[Kults]

9 minutes ago, misteraven said:

.Their monkeys, their circus. Everyone sitting around all day complaining about the USA, but then crying foul when we don’t volunteer our resources, can go screw. 

this is fkn true though 

[Dark_Knight]

Only intervene if we can exploit land and resources

[abrasivesaint]

2 hours ago, misteraven said:

Disagree... World needs to figure out its own problems. We have plenty of our own and it’s a slippery slope, not to mention stepping stone to facilitate corruption anytime we decide to go meddle. 
 

Their monkeys, their circus. Everyone sitting around all day complaining about the USA, but then crying foul when we don’t volunteer our resources, can go screw. 

Maybe. But we’re part of the world, and i dont think it’s that simple. I don’t think we can sit on our porches and watch the world drone strike and bomb each other into oblivion. Eventually other nations will gain footholds, acquire those resources, and those fronts are going to be knocking on our doors. 

[abrasivesaint]

3 hours ago, Kults said:

Not sure it’s because Trump has any interests in the region though, that seems like a bit of a stretch 

I don’t necessarily think it’s some grand design conspiracy to take over the world as it might be turning a blind eye where both parties benefit. 

[abrasivesaint]

4 hours ago, Kults said:

I never thought i’d live to see the liberals become the warhawks but I agree. 

I’m not liberal on everything, haha, either way, never thought i would either.
 

Up until a few years ago i was VERY against our doings in the Middle East. I just think we’ve past the point of no return. I think the game has changed globally, and we’re in for the long haul, whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not. We let ourselves get into this shit storm, and now we’re pissed we have to deal with the repercussions. 

 

 

[abrasivesaint]

There’s something comical about a Keep America Great flag flying on a collapsing barn in the northern midwest, with holes the size of a Prius in the roof.  

Edited October 23, 2020 by abrasivesaint

[KILZ FILLZ]

[Mercer]

On 10/21/2020 at 6:13 PM, abrasivesaint said:

I’m not liberal on everything, haha, either way, never thought i would either.
 

Up until a few years ago i was VERY against our doings in the Middle East. I just think we’ve past the point of no return. I think the game has changed globally, and we’re in for the long haul, whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not. We let ourselves get into this shit storm, and now we’re pissed we have to deal with the repercussions. 

 

 

 

We can’t fix their problems any more than we can fix our own. IMO they’re not ready for a democracy there and don’t want one. Best thing we can do is withdraw.

 

If we haven’t fixed it yet, what good will  “we’re in it for the long haul” do? IMO more bodies, some American. Say what you want about Saddam, but he killed Islamic terrorists and didn’t have any problems. We absolutely destroyed that country, much like a huge bully that’s pissed of and finds someone weak to take it out on.

 

In the event of trauma, the unfortunate reality people seem to ignore is it’s always the responsibility of the victim to recover. The bully sticking around afterward, micromanaging the victims recovery will never work out, that’s an insane plan. No country is better off with the occupying force that conquered sticking around. That’s about as insane as this belief “we’ll free the Iraqi people” 

 

this is what I don’t get about American interventionalists, he clearly doesn’t work. Obama, and trump both acknowledged the stupidity of being in Iraq yet neither one has pulled us out completely yet. This is one of the main reasons I’ve think that outside of posturing, and rhetoric there’s virtually no difference between Biden and Trump foreign policy wise @misteraven. I mean, how the are we still in Afghanistan in 2020? Are there any decisive actions either took? What improvements have either made?
 

Meanwhile back in the US, our economy suffers, 15% or more of its gross domestic product is being stolen, pissed away right out of its own bank account for what? “defense” projects that only benefit a few small corrupt few while at the same time increasing our attack surface. Not a very good defense plan when it’s literally piling dead bodies, and missing limbs up, many of them Americans.