Occupy Wall Street

[Fist 666]

breaking the law stops being illegal when you have lobbyists, lawyers, and politicians in your pocket.

[Urotsukidōji]

breaking the law stops being illegal when you have lobbyists, lawyers, and politicians in your pocket.

 

oh wow that's like hella deep brah

[Soup]

Ok here is one example of why you want a pissing competition rather than a productive discussion.

 

You say;

 

 

To which I respond;

 

Answer this; why do you chose to agree with Smith on this issue at the expense of anyone else who talks about free-market economics?

 

And you follow up with;

 

 

 

This is not an answer to my question. Rather than address this issue you then go on to attempt at side stepping it and turning the attention back onto myself. The argument you are making is inconsistent with the justification you have employed, yet rather than accept and address this inconsistency, you turn to challenge my points. Attack is the best form of defence right? This is great stuff if you are trying to 'win' the argument, but if the object of discussion is to learn, compare and contrast ideas. Then it is not.

 

But that was my answer. Why do I listen to Adam Smith when he talks about capitalism? Because he created capitalism. There is no comparison to make between Adam Smith and some austrian economist. Feel free to explain how that's me avoiding the question and winning a pissing contest.

[MOOGLE?]

i think its cause you swap between screen names in this thread..

[Soup]

You bitch about me being nonproductive and say I'm starting a pissing contest and then you come back all snoody with "this is classic?" Are you for real?

 

 

i think its cause you swap between screen names in this thread..

 

haha I lost my password to soup a long time ago. The only reason I'm still able to use it is I'm permanently logged in on safari. When I'm on my iPhone i needed another account.

[Soup]

Alright well for anyone who's not a hippocrite and wants to fact check me:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/12/podcast_adam_smith_and_the_not.html

 

I've been on topic this whole time. You're the one who's trying to remove this discussion from the realities of the world today and discuss theories within the vacuum of academia. Im bringing news articles and real numbers. You're bringing hundred year old theories and being dismissive of news articles and real numbers. Its funny to me that you act like you're an economist, when at most you've read a few books out of the hundreds that are out there. I've read a few too, but even if i had read ALL the books out there i would only be getting half the story. The other half is NEWS ARTICLES, CURRENT EVENTS, those things YOU REFUSE to read. Economists all the time say that the reality is theoretically impossible. What does that say about the relevance of economic theory to the discourse of economics?

 

The only person who's misunderstanding history and the value of economic theory is you bud. Thanks for playing.

[Fist 666]

oh wow that's like hella deep brah

 

great, thanks for the input.

[theprotester]

I don't know man. It seems a little excessive considering they broke a no camping council ordinance.

 

I could be painting an abandoned warehouse in the back blocks of an LIA, as peacefully as possible , it's still breaking the law. I know that when I go and do it. If/when the cops come, I'll try and reason with them over the fact that I'm not harming anyone, and just looking to express myself in a bit of a different way.

 

At the end of the day, I'm still breaking the law.

 

My sister was an eye witness, and actually got abused by one of the 'protesters' - people were pulling the tent poles out of the ground and hitting Police with them. What the fuck did they think was going to happen?

 

A few bruises and ONE bloody nose?

[theprotester]

Petty I know, but I've been told the place was littered terribly come Friday. To the point the area actually had a distinct odour.

 

Determining when use of force to remove a person becomes excessive will always be a two sided story. What else could they do? Talk to them longer? Give them another hour to pack their stuff?

 

Anyway, as Shai called for;

 

 

 

 

 

The thing that really gets to me, is that the Australian 'Occupiers' want to 'be heard' - we tried to listen, and they had nothing to say.

[theprotester]

That blog entry is laughable. To try and say no protesters were instigating violence makes that persons entire input to the goings on null and void.

[El Mamerro]

Likewise with environmental issues, without tragedy of the common situations or legislature that over-rides property rights, you would already have a method to price environmental damage in so far as it is measurable. How? Because if you were a property owner you would want compensation for the sludge that the factory next door is pumping onto your property. It's really that simple.

 

Yep, real simple. Spend thousands of dollars using state of the art (but still far from convincingly accurate) testing equipment and personnel to vaguely measure the amount of pollution getting into your property, build a shoddy case against a gigantic company with overwhelming legal firepower and hope you win and get compensated in the end for both your property troubles and the amount of money you spent testing in the first place.

 

Or, you can just go to them and say hey, you can dump your stuff freely as long as you break me off a piece. I don't care what happens to this pollution beyond the broad scale damage to my own property, because once it disperses everywhere else with enough granularity as to become completely immeasurable and unsourceable, it won't be my problem.

 

I mean, maybe my neighbor will get some runoff from the pollution I'm totally letting happen in my property, and it might be a steady drip that doesn't manifest into detectable and irreversible damage until 25 years down the line. But whatever, I'm sure it'll be real simple for the neighbor to figure out how to sue someone about it, even if I'm dead or the polluting company doesn't exist any more.

[the.crooked]

^a rare gem.

[acer910]

i was really dissapointed with how the occupation on wallstreet was being conducted.

all i have to say about the matter.

[shai]

I've felt a bunch of different emotions about Occupy Oakland. At this point a lot of my friends who were gung-ho about it a week ago are pretty dispirited...what it comes down to is when the cops show up, they feel like they're the only people that will stick it out, when the point was for everyone to stick together as a group.

 

Needless to say this hasn't been the case. For various reasons people started to drift away around the one week mark....some had to go back to work, or school, and some folks just got fed up. No one really feels threatened by the cops, but the reality of what they're trying to do is starting to sink in and it's not sitting well with everyone.

 

As always, I'm glad they're doing it but I would have done certain things differently. Like not build the camp directly over a subway station (read- rat's nest) and had a more cohesive plan with regards to security beyond "Keep the cops out at any cost."

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Yep, real simple. Spend thousands of dollars using state of the art (but still far from convincingly accurate) testing equipment and personnel to vaguely measure the amount of pollution getting into your property, build a shoddy case against a gigantic company with overwhelming legal firepower and hope you win and get compensated in the end for both your property troubles and the amount of money you spent testing in the first place.

 

Or, you can just go to them and say hey, you can dump your stuff freely as long as you break me off a piece. I don't care what happens to this pollution beyond the broad scale damage to my own property, because once it disperses everywhere else with enough granularity as to become completely immeasurable and unsourceable, it won't be my problem.

 

I mean, maybe my neighbor will get some runoff from the pollution I'm totally letting happen in my property, and it might be a steady drip that doesn't manifest into detectable and irreversible damage until 25 years down the line. But whatever, I'm sure it'll be real simple for the neighbor to figure out how to sue someone about it, even if I'm dead or the polluting company doesn't exist any more.

 

What's your solution?

 

Is it more federal legislation? Because again the advantage won't still go to the corporation where as you say yourself has the overwhelming legal firepower.

 

I still agree with Frankie.

[theprotester]

Good old Abe.

 

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking awy people's initive and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

[Soup]

This is my last comment on this issue. Peace.

 

 

 

Bummer. Your ideas had such strength. RIP.

 

Here's an idea. Stop claiming you have a clue how economics works after reading a few essays on the internet written by Rothbard and Mieses because you think it makes you smarter than everyone else and actually read economists that are relevant to the American economy like Paul Samuelson, Milton Friedman, and John Maynard Keynes. Not because I give a fuck about who they are, but because the AMERICAN ECONOMICS gives a fuck about who they are, and they give a fuck about Adam Smith. I dont care about any of this shit personally, i was trying to help you understand how the american economy works. Not discuss "OH BUT DID ADAM SMITH REALLY INVENT CAPITALISM?!" like a fucking inter nerd pseudo intellectual faggot. It's like running into KFC mad about if Col Sanders really made the secret recipie. NOBODY CARES. You and the rest of the libertarian book club are fucking idiots.

[Decyferon]

I cant stand Milton Friedman, I recently sat through all his 10 episodes on the free market (was funny as hell seeing a young Donald Rumsfeld in a discussion after one of them).

 

Like most things it sounds great in theory but not in practise in my opinion. I couldnt see how anything he said was going to benefit society, it was just benefitting business, and while the free market he was talking about allowed for people to get goods cheaper like TVs etc it didn't have much to say towards actually having a society that cared for each other, all it promoted was materialism and consumerism. Nothing about helping the poor or disadvantaged etc

[Soup]

I dont agree or disagree with Milton Friedman, but I see the point he makes every time and let me tell you he earned that Nobel Econ prize. The man's an economic genius... in the way a Shark is an evolutionary genius.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD0dmRJ0oWg&feature=related

 

Listen to the way he handles this kid. You can easily side with the kid and say it's unethical to produce a product that might be of hazard to the consumer, but what Milton Friedman is saying "Hey you bought the ticket, you take the ride." In other words there is no ethical responsibility for the corporation, it's all on the consumer. But the consumer suggests something else, that the car is a product of necessity. Smoking is too a product of necessity.

 

So, that's where we are as a country. What's the next step?

[Decyferon]

Oh I fully understand the point of view, I am not against choice believe me! However I don't see how morals and ethics come into it. He seems happy to have people paid a wage that wont support them because it will produce cheaper goods and society will benefit from those cheaper goods, I remember one of the episodes he was in Hong Kong and people were working in really shitty conditions and he agreed with it, he said it was their choice, I disagree with that because they didnt have much choice, either work there in shitty conditions or dont and starve. It is hardly a choice!

 

All the arguements I have heard for a free market basically makes it better for business but not for anyone else. But again that is just my opinion I am no economics expert but try to keep with it as possible.

[Soup]

Well basically the American middle class was doing good until roughly 1971/1978. Before then there was a great redistribution of wealth, everyone had jobs and in fact factories had a hard time finding ENOUGH workers so it came up with healthcare benefits as an incentive to work for them. We think of the elite 1% today having 50% of all the wealth but before capitalism they had 90%. Then that all changed.

 

That's when there was this shift in how things were made—The rise of the machines. Before the 70's you could be dumb, antisocial, loud mouthed, kill people for fun and still get a good paying job as a skilled worker doing manual labor. Now that rarely exists. Those people struggling with the transition are the ones who are hurting the most during this recession, If you have a college degree and are a professional at something, the unemployment rate is only 2%. If you only have a high school diploma the unemployment rate's about 9%. If you dropped out of high school, the unemployment's rate's about 15%, so for the uneducated, Capitalism REALLY no longer works for them.

 

So now we have a choice, do we transition our workforce by upgrading our educational system and making people into part of that college educated professional group, or do we stick with the orthodox workforces of the 20th century?

 

I realize too that I'm speaking about american economics to foreigners so the value of these numbers are gonna fluctuate a little...

[Decyferon]

well you have to invest in the educational system, America (and most other western countries) cannot compete with the far east when it comes to cheap labour. I know I wouldnt be prepared to do the work they do for the wages they get and I doubt most others would as well. So the only way to progress is to make sure you are at the forefront of innovation and science etc.

 

To be honest I think there are just so many different things wrong with the economy, political systems and business that I don't know what would solve it. I dont trust business to be honest without regulation and I dont trust government because they are all being paid off by business. I would rather burn society to the ground, wipe the slate clean and start over, but that is as far fetched as most other opinions.

[shai]

News flash-

 

Occupy Oakland got raided and shut down early this morning (4 am or so). Took 400 or so cops to arrest 80-90 people with the assistance of tear gas, rubber bullets, helicopters....most of my friends are okay except for the three that are definitely in jail.

 

Fortunately I was asleep at home...I was going to head downtown to take some pics today but it sounds like things are still rather heated at the moment.

 

We now return you to your scheduled aimless sociopolitical/economic debate.

[Mercer]

Can anyone post links to media supportive of the protesters.

 

 

Found this gem on Goldman:

[theprotester]

Occupy Birmingham wants followers to gather with them November 5th at Railroad Park to march to the Wells Fargo Bank in Downtown Birmingham.

 

Once they arrive, they want the marchers to go to the bank tellers and remove any money they have on deposit. And they ask the protesters to be nice to the bank employees.

 

It's part of a protest against big banks. The protesters want people to pull their money out of those banks and put the money into credit unions. However there's a hitch, November 5th is a Saturday, a day the bank is closed.

 

The protest page on the internet had about 24,000 supporters as of mid-Monday.

 

Protesters Planning March Against Big Banks | Weird News - 101one WJRR // Orlando, FL // text us @ 95487

[UPS!]

News flash-

 

Occupy Oakland got raided and shut down early this morning (4 am or so). Took 400 or so cops to arrest 80-90 people with the assistance of tear gas, rubber bullets, helicopters....most of my friends are okay except for the three that are definitely in jail.

 

Fortunately I was asleep at home...I was going to head downtown to take some pics today but it sounds like things are still rather heated at the moment.

 

We now return you to your scheduled aimless sociopolitical/economic debate.

 

Cops really are the biggest pussies on earth, if you get enough bullied high school kids, balding overweight white guys, a couple fascist women and a couple dudley doo rights together they seem to think they're the force of god.

 

I hope all your buddies are ok, including the ones in jail that shit sucks but props to them for sticking it out.

 

I thought Oakland was broke and wound up firing like 1/2 the police force, wouldnt 400 cops be about half of the pigs left in Oakland?

[Swindle]

[shai]

Cops really are the biggest pussies on earth, if you get enough bullied high school kids, balding overweight white guys, a couple fascist women and a couple dudley doo rights together they seem to think they're the force of god.

 

I hope all your buddies are ok, including the ones in jail that shit sucks but props to them for sticking it out.

 

I thought Oakland was broke and wound up firing like 1/2 the police force, wouldnt 400 cops be about half of the pigs left in Oakland?

 

Thanks.

 

Somehow my friend managed to call on his cell from inside the paddy wagon at 6:15 am and tell us he had just been arrested for being in public, so that was good for a laugh. One guy who we thought was picked up just showed up at the house, drunk, raving about going to the city council meeting with a wheelbarrow full of bricks. He just left, so I guess we'll see how that turns out.

 

Oakland let 80 cops go (10% of the force) in 2009 for budget reasons. The funny thing is that they went on record and in effect said they wouldn't respond to anything less than gunplay or mayhem. Well, I was at the camp, and I can assure you that there was none of either going on at any point over the past two weeks. Sounds like someone is going to have to get their story straight over the next few weeks.

 

And as I type this, the mayor is out of town, the police chief just quit prior to the occupation, and the city is in the position of having to borrow cops from 50 miles away to deal with what's going on right now- a bunch of protesters (400 or so) are trying to get to the city council meeting which is at City Hall and are being held at a skirmish line somewhere near the cop shop at 7th and Broadway because the cops are trying to keep people out of the plaza (AKA where the occupations was located) in front of City Hall.

 

All of my friends who were fine as of a few hours ago might not be after tonight....I'm staying out of downtown as long as I can help it and will only go down to take pics and observe if I'm absolutely needed. Otherwise I'm doing my part by hanging around the house to man the phones and direct people as needed.

 

Here's the latest media news I just read about what's happening downtown...I'm also getting calls every half hour or so with updates on who's in jail or hurt (we're keeping a list)...since I'm probably not going anywhere anytime soon I'll post here if anything interesting happens.

 

The city fucked up on this...they made a big deal about safety and sanitation then ended up hurting people and making an even bigger mess by sending the cops in at 4 am. What the fuck did they expect?

[Soup forgot his password]

News flash-

 

Occupy Oakland got raided and shut down early this morning (4 am or so). Took 400 or so cops to arrest 80-90 people with the assistance of tear gas, rubber bullets, helicopters....most of my friends are okay except for the three that are definitely in jail.

 

Fortunately I was asleep at home...I was going to head downtown to take some pics today but it sounds like things are still rather heated at the moment.

 

We now return you to your scheduled aimless sociopolitical/economic debate.

 

I heard it was shut down because one guy was stabbed and a girl was sexually assaulted in the camp.

[UPS!]

Well again old man shai,

 

stay safe, keep doing what you're doing and im pulling for your buddies.

 

The saddest thing is while those 400 losers were beating on innocent people and gassing citizens executing their rights there were probably a couple murders and rapes in the bay area with no bacon to be seen.

 

Worthless, absolutely worthless.

 

Im probably in the minority but I hope this shit turns violent, its about time to start pushing back.