Soup Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I hate to say this after five posts, but are you going to explain your position or not? You need to explain why you think those topics are even relevant to this discourse. I'm not about to burn through two documents that contrast austrian economics to socialism without even understanding why the hell I just did that. What relevance does any of this have to my post? You're suggesting that setting the prices of things to include (for lack of a better term) "waste management" will turn consumers to a black market because they can't afford the prices of things, because that's what Ludwig Von Mises said would happen. Cheap garbage tomatoes will cost the consumer more money in the long run than expensive nutritious foods. I'm demanding, since consumers and investors only react to stock prices, that product prices reflect their actual cost on the economy and ecosystem. Another link: http://castroller.com/Podcasts/IntelligenceSquared/2000238 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Decy/fist.....your understanding, and that of the general popular media, regarding the underlying causes of the gfc is flawed. I'll try to post some links later. i wonder if you're confusing my complaints with the government and my understanding of the causes. not saying i know everything or that i can't learn more, just curious what inspired that comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 A lot of the issues you brought up could be resolved with state regulations. Frankly after the recession most economists agree that strengthening the existing regulatory departments is a good idea for the us and uk. If the state forced Phillip Morris, BP, ford, etc to be wholly accountable for the recycling of their products and safety of their consumers down to footing the bills of those hospitalized from operating or second hand exposure to their products and biproducts, you would see an increase in market price naturally without any more arbitration than usual. What I'm suggesting isn't too far off from the current reality. Ford's cars go up in price as safety regulations get more stringent. PM is sued constantly and foots the bills for lung cancer all the time. By putting all this responsibility on companies and regulating them so they don't cut corners. Kraft/Phillip Morris may choose to use more organic farming practices as there are fewer health risks involved. Since the pesticides in tobacco account for a lot of the cancer causing chemicles there would be a decrease in coronary disease/strokes/cancer/death in smokers. They may choose to advocate portable vaporizers to cut health costs even more, and make more money on them. Ford may begin building modular vehicles with reusable parts for future vehicles. BP would begin offsetting their hydrocarbons with solar and invest in better oil spill cleaning technology. They may even find it necessary to invest in fisheries. The Florida tomato would have to adapt to the changing market, but that's only fair since they were so cheap because the market was subsidized in their favor. A free market is never really free. And if they go out of business that's capitalism for you. More organic farms will pop up to compete. Technology will make the competition fiercer, and drive prices down. The issue comes down to this: the free market described by economists a hundred years ago didn't factor in health risks, because back then there wasnt any, or finite resources, because America was too big to ever run out. Even today these things are still not factored in, even when we know the risks, at least that's true in America. China is totally state regulated, and if these corporations tried to get away with this shit in china they wouldn't be fined, they'd be up in front of a firing squad. I'm on a phone and its 3 am so I'm signing off to pick this up tomorrow. Thanks for the write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Soup...read Hayek. Decy/fist.....your understanding, and that of the general popular media, regarding the underlying causes of the gfc is flawed. I'll try to post some links later. I will agree that I don't know everything that happened, but gradually I am reading/watching as much as possible from as many different view points. The thing that concerns me is how people feel that in a free market economy that people will actually have choice, I can't see that happening, all I can see is huge monopolies controlling everything, actually removing choice from the consumer. Products/Goods purely made for profit without any thought for employees/environment. Big business has no care towards the consumer all they care about is profit, under a free market that will only get worse not better in my opinion. I trust business less than I trust government (and I dont trust government in the slightest). The only way I can see a free market working is if everything is completely burnt to the ground and then we start from point zero, all existing companies are closed and everything starts equally meaning that the best products and choices survive rather than the exisiting companies with the most money cornerring the markets through their ability to either take over or close down their competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 We got a letter from the city of Oakland saying that we have to shut the camp down as of 10 pm last night. I don't think it's going to happen....some of what the letter said is valid, and some of it overlooks/displaces some preexisting problems onto the occupation. I'm still helping out whenever/wherever I can, but I'm done sleeping there. Can someone condense what all of ^that is about? Unless it's just the usual Crossfire Economics Debate du jour, in which case I'll pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 they're arguing about regulation and governments role in a free market. nothing new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 yea sorry guys I almost just edited it all out after I wrote it because that whole discussion is pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Economics are stupid because....it doesn't make me money, it just makes me more stressed out. And I'm smart, so fuck it twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And why am I the only person here that's bothered to post photos from an occupation? Get out there and do something. Protest against something, don't be lazy lumps doing nothing with your spare time. (Sorry, work and/or arguing on the internet doesn't count.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Quickly; Free markets are free by default. So long as property rights are accepted, then a free market is the natural outcome of trade. Any intervention is placed on top of this free base, changing the characteristic of the marketplace. It doesn't make sense to say 'we live in a free market system, yet the gov subsidises tomatoes, therefore there is no such thing as a genuinely free market'. This is false reasoning. Subsidies and a free market are antithetical. If coercive intervention in a market exists, it is not a free market. It is a state intervened market. See the difference? You say that economics doesn't factor in finite resources. This is simply not true. Scarcity is one of the fundamental features of economic analysis. If this is your complaint then you are badly misinformed. Also, you mention something like many/most economists support regulation. This may or may not be the case, but this is irrelevant anyway. Most economists used flawed methodology. Hence my earlier point; you cant just read over some summary of economic thought and claim to understand the issues. You have to investigate the methodology and assess base principles. Read primary sources and attempt to follow the reasoning, then read a number of critiques and decide for yourself. You can't make knowledgeable claims based on a summarised understanding of anything. Thats all great except for one thing: It was actually Adam Smith, one of Free-Market Capitalism's first apostles, who GAVE the government its regulatory role in his original writings about free market capitalism. He understood that, as is with life, there is no such thing as freedom without regulation. In other words state regulation came in the same original box as free market capitalism. THAT'S the default. This whole notion that the market is infallible is some rhetoric that's come out of the most recent batch of american economy academics that suffer from a severe case of group-think. THAT SAID, the reason the market needs to be more regulated is not capitalism's fault. Bankers, for instance, have been bastards who've caused many recessions long before the free market. Also, don't get supply confused with finite resources. The market may factor in some finite resources, but it doesn't preserve them. There is nothing in the free market that stops people from polluting the finite amount of air we have. Or stopping fisheries from wiping out the finite amount of fish we have. Instead, you know what we do? We build the biggest fucking freezer the world has ever seen in Japan so when we inevitably run out of fish, Japanese fish markets have a 20 year supply on ice so investors can gradually transition into a dead ecosystem economy. The world economies simply invest more in drug companies, hospital construction and and cancer research. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And why am I the only person here that's bothered to post photos from an occupation? Get out there and do something. Protest against something, don't be lazy lumps doing nothing with your spare time. (Sorry, work and/or arguing on the internet doesn't count.) Protest against something? Anything? Going to work and earning money to live doesn't count? ? I have enjoyed your first hand insight into the Occupy rallies, but I just can't relate to the idea that people should just go and pitch a tent and have a whine about something they know nothing about. I live in a country with a 5.2% unemployment rate. I work seven days a week and enjoy every minute of it. No photos from me I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I guess to keep my shtick in line with this thread I'll say this: I'm all for creating an alternative democratic system. I see no reason why everyone shouldn't participate in this experiment of participatory economics. Giving people not only a choice in parties but a choice in democracies? Fuck yeah. I'm not about to protest anything Occupy Wallstreet is protesting tho. 1. "Capitalism doesn't work because someone needs to break up the Banks" Four hundred years ago people were pissed off about recessions caused by banks, so you can't really fault capitalism for bankers being assholes. Not to mention whether we like it or not most of the world economy will eventually become state controlled. America is likely to follow suit. 2. Demanding more state regulation is already happening. Nothing that really needs to be protested. 3. Actually everything except for the abolishment of the federal reserve is already happening. 4. Sooooo yeah, what's left to gripe about? I thought i had a few gooduns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Protest against something? Anything? Going to work and earning money to live doesn't count? ? I have enjoyed your first hand insight into the Occupy rallies, but I just can't relate to the idea that people should just go and pitch a tent and have a whine about something they know nothing about. I live in a country with a 5.2% unemployment rate. I work seven days a week and enjoy every minute of it. No photos from me I'm afraid. You don't have to camp, just get out there, document what's happening and talk to people. Talk to people you wouldn't normally talk to. Talk to that 5.2%, find out how they're living. You don't have to forgo having a normal life to do this, you just need the will and the interest. Oh, well...I tried. I'm sure if I lived there I could find something wrong. I have a pretty good idea about what my grievances are and I can back most of them up with facts and figures. This isn't my first rodeo by a long shot...and what I was dissatisfied with about the occupation here had to do with a lack of foresight with regards to location and logistics, not so much with the issues being addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 I've been trying to get out to the NYC protest, but just got over my hernia surgery and have been working full time since I've been back to work.. I will try harder this week, just to check it out for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 All right, you get a pass. Take it easy, there's some wild shit going on out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 i just don't take pictures. thats not my thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOGLE? Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 dunce cap. i chortled. whats the actual that is going on at the moment irl and online with occupy? and i'd get in on the debates but ive always had a blockade against intellectual and topical debating on 12oz.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 You don't have to camp, just get out there, document what's happening and talk to people. Talk to people you wouldn't normally talk to. Talk to that 5.2%, find out how they're living. You don't have to forgo having a normal life to do this, you just need the will and the interest. Oh, well...I tried. I'm sure if I lived there I could find something wrong. I have a pretty good idea about what my grievances are and I can back most of them up with facts and figures. This isn't my first rodeo by a long shot...and what I was dissatisfied with about the occupation here had to do with a lack of foresight with regards to location and logistics, not so much with the issues being addressed. I'm thousands and thousands of kilometres from any type of protest/sit in/demonstration - also they are cleaning house over here anyway. It's good that you have a clear understanding of what you're protesting about, my mates have gone through Sydney and Melbourne asking some of the crew, spending time out there, and they've all concluded that it's a bunch of hipster bums that are completely unsure as to what they are actually protesting. (photos to come!) It must be a bit different over there, because over here they're not just going to let people set up a fuckin' camp site in the middle of the city for days on end. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-dawn-raid-clears-occupy-sydney-protest-20111023-1me59.html http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=676466&vId= They're going to try and 'Occupy' Perth when the Queen is here - they've been allowed a right to protest in a few different spots, but they are saying they are going to deliberately go to the security risk areas instead - then I'm sure they'll bitch and moan that they get beat the fuck down for running around near the CHOGM events. Honestly. People just seem hyped after watching the London riots and are all keen for a crack at some mayhem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 dunce cap. i chortled. whats the actual that is going on at the moment irl and online with occupy? and i'd get in on the debates but ive always had a blockade against intellectual and topical debating on 12oz.. Locally or overall? I think you can probably google "occupy (insert city here) general assembly" and get an idea of what's happening. Obviously not every city's occupation is attempting to adhere to a uniform set of goals, beyond nonviolence and trying to be as inclusive as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 They broke non violence in Melbourne when they ripped tent poles out of the ground and started swinging at the Police that gave them ample time with which to move on from the area. They also done fucked up by getting completely innocent, non participant citizens injured in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOGLE? Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Locally or overall? I think you can probably google "occupy (insert city here) general assembly" and get an idea of what's happening. Obviously not every city's occupation is attempting to adhere to a uniform set of goals, beyond nonviolence and trying to be as inclusive as possible. overall. i'd rather get crossfires input first in this case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 There's been a couple of not-so-great incidents here (one guy got pepper-sprayed and smacked in the head with a 2x4 after repeatedly picking arguments and fights nonstop for several days) but they all involved outside influences and were a response to violence not instigated by camp members. I'm not trying to get down on anyone here for not participating but if there's an occupation nearby you should go down there and talk to people...you might learn a thing or two. Photos being optional but greatly appreciated (just try to not get anyone in the frame whenever possible.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Haha I've never been asked about the validity of Adam smith before. He's essentially CREDITED for the creation of capitalism. Anyway im curious how much of that which you preach you'd honestly back up. After all I've said, do you swear, without a shadow of a doubt, that an unregulated free market would fix all the environmental blunders of the American Economy? I don't see how you can know that for certain. We all know economics isn't like all the other sciences that derives data from controlled experiments. It's all based on history. So if there has NEVER been an unregulated free market in history, then you have nothing but theories to base your opinion on. It's irrelevant anyway to extrapolate the value of an infallible free market economy. The american economy has never and will never be wholly unregulated. Can you fucking imagine how companies would behave without any governmental consequence to their actions? Holy fuck lead poisoning would be rampant, fish wouldn't exist in native environments, Henry ford would still be dumping spray booth waste in Cherokee reservations and the American consumer would be dumb as a rock. That's my theory anyway. Who knows what an unregulated free economy actually looks like. There'll never be one. This is why I choose to post news articles and deal with the factual. Theories are great for theoretical discussions within the vacuum of academia, but suck for everything else. And lastly, I already said that economists have some way of factoring in the finite, but not preserving it. Capitalism And industry requires infinite production which is impossible when factoring in physical limitations. Keynesian economics, which dictates to the federal government and fed reserve how to spend its money since JFK suggests infinite growth works because inevitably were all dead abyway. I want a system of economics that supports our ecosystem, not production. For that to happen production is a biproduct of a natural surplus of resources. Which frankly we don't know if it exists. Add that to your paradoxes: "sustainable growth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 as a bystander i don't see the pissing contest element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOGLE? Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 There's been a couple of not-so-great incidents here (one guy got pepper-sprayed and smacked in the head with a 2x4 after repeatedly picking arguments and fights nonstop for several days) but they all involved outside influences and were a response to violence not instigated by camp members. I'm not trying to get down on anyone here for not participating but if there's an occupation nearby you should go down there and talk to people...you might learn a thing or two. Photos being optional but greatly appreciated (just try to not get anyone in the frame whenever possible.). i got suckered into the occupy in sheboygan today..... apparently people think i represent anon since i pulled a few stunts at best buy and pirate movies for people.. also it makes me wonder if there are paid agitators place in certain occupy's. or if its just plain old human nature rearing its head when people amass in groups that are spoiling the protests Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Dude there is no pissing contest. Frankly i dont care if I'm right—I actually hope that I'm not, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to throw softballs at your argument. THAT would be counterproductive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 also it makes me wonder if there are paid agitators place in certain occupy's. or if its just plain old human nature rearing its head when people amass in groups that are spoiling the protests there were groups like that in significant past protests, esp WTO seattle. it wouldn't surprise me. OWS has been motivated enough from the start to be peaceful and have group members set to keep it so and i think it has helped give it this decent infancy stage. immediate violence would have stopped the spread and stopped a lot of people from joining in. i hope it stays this way for months. unless someone wants to snipe politicians and lobbyists and bankers, i'd be pretty satisfied if those events ever take place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 also it makes me wonder if there are paid agitators place in certain occupy's. or if its just plain old human nature rearing its head when people amass in groups that are spoiling the protests Believe me, this has been discussed at length. Some of the people who are starting shit are not your typical wingnut...they're fairly clean cut, methodical about what they're doing and their arguments are lucid (albeit annoying). My guess is that it's a move that's a little too sophisticated for the cops...of course people have brought up the fed angle, which I'm skeptical about but there's really no way to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOGLE? Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 that happened in the madison wisconsin protests recently. certain people got out of jail way too fast and came right back to the front line . time will tell i guess. oh and only thing ive learned so far as hacking is the new flash based prog thats kinda like the loic... dont know too much though. i dont really want to go poking around places i shouldnt..already had my other laptop slammed hard through 2 proxies..i have to reformat now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 They all deserved it. That's not excessive. When does breaking the law stop being illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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