FREIGHTYONE Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I was at a coffee shop a block away from my State capitol/Occupy protest today and bumped into what seemed like a mid-high level CEO for a large bank doing meet and greets up and down the street with small business owners. Coincidental or poor timing? She got trolled pretty good by a street dude in the shop who was asking about various financial options and such, and when she asked what his occupation was, he replied "Oh, I'm what you would call a transient." She left shortly thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goon2agoblin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 All those cops look straight out of the academy too. Breaking in the rookies with fake crowd control. Nice. :lol: this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Yeah i don't think that was a CEO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 bumped into what seemed like a mid-high level CEO for a large bank doing meet and greets up and down the street OK mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Here’s a much more debatable set of preliminary demands: WHEREAS THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION PROVIDES: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. BE IT RESOLVED THAT: WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of Philadelphia. I. Election of Delegates: The People, consisting of all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18, regardless of party affiliation and voter registration status, shall elect Two Delegates, one male and one female, by direct vote, from each of the existing 435 Congressional Districts to represent the People at the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in Philadelphia. Said Assembly shall convene on July 4, 2012 in the city of Philadelphia. The office of Delegate shall be open to all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18. Election Committees, elected by local General Assemblies from all over the United States, shall coordinate with the 99 Percent Declaration Working Group (http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/) to organize, coordinate and fund this national election by direct democratic voting. The Election Committees shall operate similarly to the original Committees of Correspondence during the first American Revolution. II. Meeting of the National General Assembly and Deliberation: At the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the 870 Delegates shall set forth, consider and vote upon a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to be submitted to all members of Congress, The Supreme Court and President and each of the political candidates running in the nationwide Congressional and Presidential election in November 2012. The Delegates of the National General Assembly shall vote upon and implement their own agenda, propagate their own rules and elect or appoint committee members as the Delegates see fit to accomplish their goal of presenting a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES from the 99% of Americans before the 2012 elections. III. Proposed Petition for the Redress of Grievances: The PETITION OF GRIEVANCES shall be non-partisan and address the critical issues now confronting the People of the United States. The Delegates shall deliberate and vote upon proposals for the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES in consultation with the 99% similarly to the first two Continental Congresses. Below is a suggested list of grievances respectfully submitted by the OWS Working Group on the 99% Declaration. The final version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES voted upon by the Delegates of the National General Assembly MAY or MAY NOT include the following suggested issues: 1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns. We categorically REJECT the concept that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions and ensure their reelection year after year. 2. The immediate reversal, even if it requires a Constitutional Amendment, of the outrageous and anti-democratic holding in the "Citizens United" case by the Supreme Court, which equates the payment of money by corporations, wealthy individuals and unions to politicians with free speech. We, the People, demand that institutional bribery and corruption not be deemed protected speech. 3. Prohibiting all federal public officials and their immediate family members, whether elected or appointed, from EVER being employed by any corporation they regulate while in office and/or holding any stock or shares in any corporation they regulate while in office until a full 5 years after their term is completed. 4. A complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money, directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed federal officials or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to regulate while in office. 5. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of whom, pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to the United States Treasury. We, like Warren Buffet, find this income tax disparity to be fundamentally unjust. 6. Medicare for all American citizens or other single-payer healthcare system, adjusted by a means test (i.e. citizens who can afford it may opt-out and pay their own health insurance or opt-in and pay a means tested premium). The Medicaid program, fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non- citizens who will not be covered by the single-payer program. 7. New comprehensive regulations to give the Environmental Protection Agency expanded powers to shut down corporations, businesses or any entities that intentionally or recklessly damage the environment and/or criminally prosecute individuals who intentionally damage the environment. We also demand the immediate adoption of the most recent international protocols, including the "Washington Declaration" to cap carbon emissions and implement new and existing programs to transition away from fossil fuels to reusable or carbon neutral sources of power. 8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020. Reduction of the national debt to be achieved by BOTH a cut in spending to corporations engaged in perpetual war for profit, the "healthcare" industry, the pharmaceutical industry and all other sectors that use the federal budget as their income stream AND a truly progressive income tax code that does not allow the wealthy and corporations to evade taxes through excessive deductions, subsidies and loopholes. We agree that spending cuts are necessary but those cuts must be made to facilitate what is best for the People of the United States of America, not multinational and domestic corporations. 9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training act like the American Jobs Act to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work now by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure. We also recommend the establishment of an online international job exchange to match employers with skilled workers or employers willing to train workers in 21st century skills. 10. Student loan debt relief. Our young People and students are more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone. Payment and interest on these debts should be deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal on these loans reduced using a corporate tax surcharge. 11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to stay and work in our industries and schools after they obtain their education and training in the United States. 12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, including terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit. 13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of labor in China, India and other countries and paying our teachers a salary that is competitive with the private sector. Paying our teachers a competitive salary commensurate with the salaries of People in the private sector with similar skills. 14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to remain in the United States and hire its citizens rather than outsource jobs and reconstruct the manufacturing capacity of the United States. In conjunction with a new jobs act, reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps and a similar emergency governmental agency tasked with creating new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed. 15. Implementing of immediate legislation to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and reduce the trade deficit. 16. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street and the financial industry by the SEC, FINRA and the other financial regulators, and the commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industries practices that led to the collapse of markets, $700 billion bail-out, and financial firm failures in 2007-2008. 17. Adoption of a plan similar to President Clinton’s proposal to end the mortgage crisis and instead of the Federal Reserve continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, the Federal Reserve shall buy all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and refinance these debts at 1% or less to be managed by the newly established Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (and foreclosure task force described below) because 1% or less is the interest rate the Federal Reserve loans to the banks directly who hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People and small businesses. 18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be reviewed by an independent foreclosure task force appointed by Congress and the Executive Branch to (in conjunction with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau ) determine, on a case by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner and propriety of the financial institution's conduct. 19. Subject to the above ban on all private money and gifts in politics, to enact additional campaign finance reform requiring free air time and public campaign finances to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to participate in the primaries and/or electoral process, to shorten the campaign season and to allow voting on weekends and holidays. 20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate and we must help now. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, is not acted upon by Congress, the President, and Supreme Court, to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, said Delegates shall organize a THIRD, COMPLETELY NON-PARTISAN, INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates for every available Congressional seat in the mid-term election of 2014 and again in 2016 until all vestiges of the existing corrupt corporatocracy have been removed by the ballot box. https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ Have at it. 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FREIGHTYONE Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Yeah i don't think that was a CEO. Yeah, you're right. I'm pretty sure she's some sort of some sort of regional management. I sometimes like to over sensationalize things. pieinmyface.jpeg carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christo-f Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 this captures pretty well how i feel about cops. i'm a combat vet, and i understand what it means to itch for shit to 'go off' and to 'get some.' but these guys are itching for it to get real with civilians, not criminals. frustrating. I'm not sure that screaming and yelling stuff at them really equates to attempting to reason. Not supporting the cops (still haven't seen the footage of what happened and prob won't bother to watch as it's the same old story) and it's fun to watch cops come up against soldiers, they are NOT fans of that! But to me this didn't constitute "reasoning". From a professional perspective, as in crowd control, de-escalation, etc. the cops actually handled it well. Guess a healthy dose of fear and a few cameras work to keep cops chilled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Yeah, you're right. I'm pretty sure she's some sort of some sort of regional management. I sometimes like to over sensationalize things. pieinmyface.jpeg carry on. Going door to door to give small businesses a howdy-do, is something the branch manager of a small bank would do. They tend do be cordial like that and dress nicely. I'm not sure that screaming and yelling stuff at them really equates to attempting to reason. Not supporting the cops (still haven't seen the footage of what happened and prob won't bother to watch as it's the same old story) and it's fun to watch cops come up against soldiers, they are NOT fans of that! But to me this didn't constitute "reasoning". From a professional perspective, as in crowd control, de-escalation, etc. the cops actually handled it well. Guess a healthy dose of fear and a few cameras work to keep cops chilled! I just laughed when you see the geared up riot squad sneaking up in the background when Sarge turns around and shouts "What the fuck do you think you're doing? This isn't a war zone." I don't see what the cops handled. There wasn't anything going on except a bunch of people standing around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 he says he's frustrated with acts that took place before the video--cops were aggressively pulling and pushing people to force the direction of the crowd. perhaps "reasoning" wasn't the proper term, but it was at least a 'calling-on-their-shit' move which i appreciate. as i said in the ch0 occupy thread, his anger is justified whether he just witnessed violence moments before OR he has seen any of the footage of excessive police force that has taken place--the beatings, the running-over-with-scooters, the pepper spraying, etc. this is not a riot, it has been constitutionally protected freedoms of speech and assembly, the police actions have been mostly good, surprisingly, but there are obviously several incidents of excess which we should all be concerned about. to the list: #10. forgiveness of college debt: I don't know if i agree with this, it sounds nice to be debt free, but we took the debt on knowing it would follow us, I don't have an answer, just don't think this is it. #17. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: I don't know enough about economics to get the long term affects of this, if anyone could clarify for me I'd appreciate. #18. foreclosure task force: this would have to be such a massive group, It would take years and years and likely billions to investigate all the cases. perhaps an application system from foreclosing individuals would streamline the process. overall I agree with most of it and would love to see any elected official take it and do something with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 So here's some pics of Occupy Oakland...they're in no particular order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I really feel like the foreclosure situation is being handled at the best of the Attourney Generals' abilities. There's also a hundred private law firms that are suing banks for investors that originally bought the Mortgage-backed securities, and the people who own the mortgages. How's #16 different than whats already going on? Probably isn't. Definitely not for college students/grads being allowed to default on debt, Loans or credit cards. You bought the ticket you take the ride. Being allowed to defer while you can't find a job, ok. But its not fair either if you're collecting unemployment after you quit your current job because you realized you would actually be taking more money home if you didn't work and didn't have to pay your loans. There's gotta be a solution to that without leaving a college graduate with nothing. #17: The CFPB already exists. http://www.consumerfinance.gov/ It's basically trying to educate the dumbasses who have loans but don't understand how interest works, or are trying to buy unnecessary shit. My main concerns are: Social Security reform —***When Social Security sucks up 12% of our GDP in the next twenty years, AND continues to rise for the next generation, how do we make S.S. sustainable? HealthCare reform doesn't do much good if people are becoming sicker and sicker and paying more and more for healthcare because the world we live in is more and more toxic. Public Education should start at a Preschool level. Science has proven through various studies that the most important lessons a person can learn, such as compromise, anger/stress management, listening to/work well with others, are all things taught in preschool. After preschool its generally too late. There also needs to be a reform at a teacher's union and school district level so that good teachers are rewarded, and not just making their students "tuned for the test." I also think there should be a something regulating the prices of things, so nothing is artificially priced higher or lower than its market value. If something pollutes, but the cost of cleaning up that pollutant isn't included, it should be in the original cost of that item. Junk Food should have a tax on it that pays into medicare so when poor people get sick because of the shit they eat, they're at least covered. And we need to make DRASTIC policy changes to help alternative energy along. By 2030, if things go the way they're going, even as more car makers make more electric cars, EV's will only make up about 3% of the total cars on the road. If we start implementing solar, wind, geothermal, and more nuclear power, at MOST we'll cut our hydrocarbon usage by 10-20%. People are hoping to cut hydrocarbon use in half but that's not going to happen unless some geniuses get together and solve the problem. I do like the idea of giving people a male and female delegate. It ends that stupid rant about "oh lets have a woman this time!" I don't like every congressional district getting their own pair of delegates. If every vote is meant to be counted equally, why aren't there delegates per capita? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Not a free trade market you dunce cap. The cost of materials and time of all the things it takes to bring a horse to market, and the cost of materials and time to properly dispose of all waste thereafter. It would force companies like BP to invest heavily in cleaning technologies of oil spills, atmospheric carbon, etc. there needs to be a group of economists that set the prices of goods and services based on something more long term and lasting than trending consumerism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 The other thing of mention regarding the toxic assets aka mortgage backed securities aka cdo's, is that the reason the housing market tanked so hard was because it was fueled by this decade or two of house trader, house flipping bullshit. You saw it on tv with shows on E dedicated to flipping houses. People were taking loans out on 2nd 3rd and 4th homes because they thought they were good investments. And they thought they were good investments because other people were buying them up too. These new houses didn't serve any function except as glorified rocks that people thought were worth something. Shockingly you see the exact same thing with the skyrocketing price of gold. There were also giant rings of people, especially in florida, who would buy a house with one mortgage, then flip the house to someone for $200000 more, pay for it with another mortgage and split the "profit." they would keep doing this for a few years until they got bored, defaulted on some insane mortgage and get caught for being stupid. What's even more disturbing about all the cdo's was that they by and large were bonds bought by your average joe shmoe who trusted the market with their life savings. And one of the banks that was by and large putting these cdo's together was the uk bank rbc (if I'm getting that acronym correct) 80% of which is owned by the British taxpayers. So if joe shmoe sues rbc for forging documents somewhere in their 5000 page toxic asset and wins, guess who's paying joe? The British taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I wouldnt say the problem was lying with the banks like RBS who held bad toxic assets, it was the investment arms of the banks that caused the problem by basically creating toxic cdos and selling them like they are going to make money on them, not to mention then betting against those cdos and also taking out huge insurance risk against those bad investment portfolios. Having watched a load of documentaries on the free market recently (loads of milton friedman and others) and nothing I have watched gives me any faith in the free market. The arguements for it benefitting people just seem pathetic, like benefitting people because they can get cheap technology but can't get a job because the free market goes where the labour is cheap. But I dont care so much about that, but financial services should be a heavily regulated business. Investment banks shouldnt be able to bet against investments they have sold as good investments failing becuae that is just a huge conflict of interest. No one benefits from a free financial market apart from the banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 /\/\/\and the politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yo Shai What am I looking at here? Something my friend Monica built. Unfortunately it got torn down a couple days ago before I got a chance to repaint it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I wouldnt say the problem was lying with the banks like RBS who held bad toxic assets, it was the investment arms of the banks that caused the problem by basically creating toxic cdos and selling them like they are going to make money on them, not to mention then betting against those cdos and also taking out huge insurance risk against those bad investment portfolios. Having watched a load of documentaries on the free market recently (loads of milton friedman and others) and nothing I have watched gives me any faith in the free market. The arguements for it benefitting people just seem pathetic, like benefitting people because they can get cheap technology but can't get a job because the free market goes where the labour is cheap. But I dont care so much about that, but financial services should be a heavily regulated business. Investment banks shouldnt be able to bet against investments they have sold as good investments failing becuae that is just a huge conflict of interest. No one benefits from a free financial market apart from the banks. But RBS did create many of them. THat's the problem. Another great TAL ep. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/418/toxie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 yea sorry I mean it wasnt just them it was all the investment wings of the banks doing it, the bloke that was running RBS at the time was a cunt, I know because I worked there at the time (insurance not banking) and when he visited we weren't allowed any personal stuff (pictures of our kids etc) at our desks and we were told if we see him not to address him unless he addressed us first like he was the fucking queen or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 i'm reading "THE BIG SHORT" by michael lewis right now, its a pretty in depth, yet easily read, look into the history of the economic collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 haha then why call it a 'market' value? Now you're on some Orwellian shit. Anyway, you're conflating issues. It sounds like you want two things; a 'fair' price based on the cost of production, and a way to price environmental externalities associated with production. Well firstly I can tell you that efforts to achieve a 'fair' price have historically caused exactly the opposite; prices go up, quality goes down. Secondly I would like to say that any price you or anyone else comes up with to value these externalities would be as arbitrary as the notion of a 'fair' price. The reason people talk about market values is because the market is the only mechanism that can accurately value anything. If you want to legislate in order to price environmental damage, this might be called an imposed legislative value, but it would certainly not be a market value. tdlr; lrn 2 regulatory paradox. Wrong wrong wrong. Fair price is LESS arbitrary and volatile than a free market. Look at the difference between a $1 tomato from Florida and a $4 organic tomato grown locally. If you're an investor you may want whatever tomato posts higher profits faster, which would be the $1 tomato grown in florida that uses highly genetically modified tomatoes that grow in sand into these green, apple-hard tomatoes that can be transported anywhere. They utilize migrant slave labor to keep overhead low, they grow year-round, and have contracts with grocery stores in the winter, and fast-food chains year-round, so there's always a market for them. There's many issues with these tomatoes, first of all their growing methods are completely unsustainable: They're reliant on petroleum-based fertilizer, slave labor, fast food chains and uneducated consumers. These tomatoes also have almost no nutritional value. So when you think you're biting into a tomato, you're just eating carbs. The problem with that is health risks go up because the food we eat can't sustain life. So that investor isn't taking into consideration that the extra profits he's making off these $1 tomatoes are just going to paying for the rising cost of healthcare, the cost of state attorneys who have to investigate the violations of human rights, and the probability that these companies they're investing in will be shut down, or at least fined millions of dollars. Compare that with the $4 organic tomato. Instead of using petroleum based fertilizer it does its own compost. Instead of migrant workers it enlists volunteers within the community. Instead of no nutrients and causing cancer, it has tons of nutrients which fight cancer. The only "arbitrary externalities" are the weather or a worker calling in sick. The profits may be lower too but think of the money you're not spending on health bills or federal lawsuits. The issue isn't that there isn't enough transparency in a free market. The issue is that there CAN'T be transparency in a free market. Its way too connected and confusing for 99% of investors. No car company is going to make sales by telling their stock holders "This car is so reliable and well-built, consumers are likely NOT to buy another car for the next twenty years." Look at gold right now. You know what I see when i look at that? A bubble. Gold quadrupling in less than ten years, and doubling in less than two? Thats what the housing market did. Those prices aren't based on an increased practical use for gold. Its based on people being fucking idiots. Buying gold and houses are the equivalent of spending your life's savings on some football team's merchandise because you expect them to go to the Super Bowl this year. But you can't sell gold by saying you're just as well off with some 49er jerseys. You have make the great sell. What we need is a group of economists from macroeconomics, agrieconomics, etc deciding the fair, functional, pragmatic value of things. The companies that have the most sustainable manufacturing methods (IE the companies that consider deconstruction, reconstruction, and waste management as importantly as construction) will be the most valuable to investors. One more example: What you have here is a recent satellite photo of one of the great lakes. All that green stuff is toxic algae thats basically killed the ecosystem of an entire great lake. Green means no fishing, no fish, no oxygen even being produced. All that grey stuff is agricultural runoff. This isn't an isolated incident. As we see harbor seals dying on the shores of california we know it's happening in the pacific ocean. And that oil spill from BP has produced the largest toxic algae bloom the Gulf has ever seen. The effects of investing in companies that did not value waste management are being seen around the world and the problems they have caused are already too big to solve. The great lakes are fucked. Our oceans are fucked. I don't see how we're not already fucked, but if by some miracle we aren't, and we survive long enough, we need to create a system of economics that take precautionary measures and invests in sustainability. Our current economic system will thrive long after the planet is dead and the entire human race has cancer. How's that for being Orwellian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 hahaha your fear is that you'd be forced to rely on a black-market for your junk food? How ass-backwards of a statement is that? If you're too lazy to write up what you think will happen, post some links or something. I've done the legwork for my argument. I don't see why I should have to do the legwork for yours too. What would happen would be this: You buy a pack of cigs. That pack of cigs has a tax on it that goes into funding healthcare for people with lung cancer that was caused directly by cigarettes. You're not paying MORE for the things you want over the span of your lifetime, because if you're a lifetime smoker you're eventually going to get lung cancer. You're just paying for that extra healthcare up front. The same goes for this internet habit of ours. We think it's free, but lets look at specifically online multiplayer video games. The online multiplayer habit of America alone uses a power grid the size of Chile. Videogamers should be forced to reconcile with the adverse side effects of adding more power plants to the grid just to keep up with their habit. That's fair. Simply living a sedentary lifestyle is unhealthy. Watching TV for an hour a day increases your risk of diabetes, heart disease, and premature death. If you're getting the health bill up-front, you might change your habits. Or at the very least you'll be financially covered when the health bills actually come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 As far a examples go, excessive cigarette taxes make for a poor argument. Fact is, the diseases people die from that are caused by smoking don't cost much. Lung cancer is the big one, but once diagnosed it's most likely inoperable and doesn't cost much. People who live to 90 something cost a lot more over a life time, if we're being fair here we should be taxing them more as well. Along with anything else that may not be popular like skydiving, video games, ect. taxes ect. Personally, I'd like more control and freedom over my own decisions than relying on the whims of the fickle masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 to be clear--you think these solutions are going to come from wholly deregulated companies in a free market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You want me to attack a 46 page essay by Ludwig von Mises? Forreal? That's you doing the legwork to defend your point of view? Ok Mr. Filibuster, how bout i just post this instead: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105783108 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM4RT Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Soup...read Hayek. Decy/fist.....your understanding, and that of the general popular media, regarding the underlying causes of the gfc is flawed. I'll try to post some links later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You're on a role with the personal attacks. Be respectful and cut it out before i resort to calling you a dilweed and check out the bike threads. If this was an oxford debate, and you cited an entire 46 page booklet, you'd be called out for filibustering. That's not how you have a debate. You can cite quotations or find shorter and more relevant texts, but trying to say that I'm stressed and if I don't read a 46 page booklet I'm prolonging the inevitable conclusion of finding myself agreeing with you isn't the oxford thing to do. As those oxfordians would say, "it's wicked retarded, yo." It's YOUR duty to back up the things you say. Not mine. Edit: that reminded me of this too: http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/free-market-capitalism-is-so-20th-century Another great podcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Soup...read Hayek. Decy/fist.....your understanding, and that of the general popular media, regarding the underlying causes of the gfc is flawed. I'll try to post some links later. This is not the free-market economy any economist from a hundred years ago had in mind. THey might've figured that the larger companies would wipe out mom and pops due to "creative destruction," but they had no idea that these large companies would claim to be infallible, demand no government intervention, then move the market in the wrong direction and start a chain of defaults that nearly destroyed the entire economy. Hayek and Mises never foresaw the buying habits of modern investors/consumers. Free Market economy was also supposed to be too big to fail. Now It's clear that it's not. Not to mention that the second largest employer in the united states (behind the federal government) is a temp agency. Almost all the "jobs" that have been created in the last two decades has been temping. Nobody wanted any of this. You can hate on communism for its oppression of free speech and whatnot, but ask any Polak or eastern european who was alive during their communist regime and they all say the same thing: The job security and money was great. Not that I'm suggesting communism, just saying there's alternatives to capitalism that work better for the majority of people. Posting this for a second time: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105783108 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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