Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 where are you getting that from protestor? I have not read a single thing saying OWS was thankful collectively for obama's support. in my state we are very vocal that he has had just as much to do with the problems as any other politician, he is however the ONLY politician that has "real" power to do something about it. everything i've been a part of has vocalized intent to not let this be stolen by either party, because they are all guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Soup, Shai, 50, Spectr, etc: Are you guys all ok? I see some of you posted but I only scanned through. Will read later when I come back. Anyway, you guys stay safe and don't get fucked up by these pigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 There you go again not reading the post in its entirety and launching into a rant about some other shit. Nobody's buying what you're selling. Yo casek. I see me and shai, unless spec and 50 got new names and didn't tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 While me and Ftronic don't agree on some things, I am with him on this. @Fist: I am trying to get two sides to the story. It's difficult. It would be helpful if they could 'elect' some sort of spokesperson to actually represent them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 That would be completely opposite of their entire platform: Down with aristocracy. "A system that requires the right man to pull the right levers at the right time is the wrong system." -Milton Friedman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 There you go again not reading the post in its entirety and launching into a rant about some other shit. Nobody's buying what you're selling. Yo casek. I see me and shai, unless spec and 50 got new names and didn't tell me. Hey bro. I was just asking in general if you guys were ok. I thought of you guys the other day when I was reading about that Marine who got fucked up by that flashbang. My thoughts and prayers are with you guys. Stay safe if you guys are participating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 The richer the private sector gets, the more they pay in taxes. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't it great that the top %5 of wealth individuals in your country pay over %60 of the personal taxes? I love this use of statistics and here's why: This is a pie chart showing you the distribution of wealth in america in 2011. Now you tell me, is it fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Huh? You made an assertion, which I argued was a conflation. As an assertion it did not depend on the proceeding text. I'm not selling anything except the fact that you play fast and loose with terminology, historical theory, and evidence to suit your ever shifting purpose. No you made an assumption argued against your own assumption and looked like a fucking idiot while peddling your libertarian wares. Don't talk to me about historical theory, history, facts, or anything you don't have. You can't win against me because you dont have the cards. All you can do is bluff hard enough to keep this game going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 That would be completely opposite of their entire platform: Down with aristocracy. "A system that requires the right man to pull the right levers at the right time is the wrong system." -Milton Friedman I don't see how this is up for debate? The collective of OWS has no direction, and no leader. If you truly believe any change/movement/society should not have any leadership, then I don't really know what to come back at you with? Thousands of upset people wanting hundreds of different things is not a protest, it's just a bunch of pissed off people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I love this use of statistics and here's why: This is a pie chart showing you the distribution of wealth in america in 2011. Now you tell me, is it fair? So the top five percent earned more than the bottom 95%; yet paid over 50% of the entire tax bill? What's fair? Who decides what's fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 That statement is true. Show me an example of the market regulating itself choosing ethics and morals over profits. It doesn't happen. I said a million times I'm not against capitalism but it needs an outsider to keep things humane and environmentally friendly. You need to learn to read. Im just going to keep reposting this until it sinks in: You can't argue with me because you dont have the cards. All you can do is bluff hard enough to keep this game going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I don't see how this is up for debate? The collective of OWS has no direction, and no leader. If you truly believe any change/movement/society should not have any leadership, then I don't really know what to come back at you with? Thousands of upset people wanting hundreds of different things is not a protest, it's just a bunch of pissed off people. the point is that there isn't a single voice, a single representative to channel this overflowing frustration of the people. the general assembly is THE voice, the goals and directions are determined by the people and voiced by the people. there have been several postings from nearly every city partaking that voice the qualms of their respective communities. we aren't looking for someone to rise up from OWS to run in 2012, we're looking for our politicians that we elected to hear the voices of the constituents. though i'm sure many smaller offices will be run for by ows inspired folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shai Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Hey bro. I was just asking in general if you guys were ok. I thought of you guys the other day when I was reading about that Marine who got fucked up by that flashbang. My thoughts and prayers are with you guys. Stay safe if you guys are participating. Thanks....been doing it and will continue to do so as safely as I can. If you want to keep up on what's happening here, check this out- http://www.occupyoakland.org And Oakland's about to have its first general strike since 1946. I'm all over the place about how I feel about everything that's going on here, but I feel like this is my first and/or only chance to be part of something big. Good to see you back, I figured you'd chime in at some point about all this. You know how to get a hold of me, I'll be happy to discuss what's going on with you if you're interested and you catch me when I have a free moment to do so. I'll post some pics from today once I get them uploaded and resized. edit- This isn't Tampa, this is from tonight's GA here in Oakland. Trust me, I was there less than a hour ago....the big gray building in the center with the orange blob on top is the Wells Fargo Tower at 14th and Broadway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 the point is that there isn't a single voice we're looking for our politicians that we elected to hear the voices of the constituents. Which voice are they to listen to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Which voice are they to listen to? anything posted by the ga; lists of grievances primarily. i'm not going to argue the merit of the system, but it is principled and powerfully symbolic.the messages of each occupy group are easy enough to understand. i like to think that an honest politician would at least try to be receptive. probably too much to ask. this is still young and perhaps more defined spokespeople will be defined. i have a hard time when people say they just don't know what this is about and we're a headless monster. we're a many headed monster and its the internet-age, if you can't find something its because you're looking in the wrong place or not looking at all but waiting for it to be delivered to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I am observing a really strange phenomenon; each time you make some kind of accusation or criticism, it seems to be a much greater fit when describing your own posts rather than mine. This is both bizarre and amusing. You accuse me of not reading your posts, for example, but it is you who has done this rather than me. Let me demonstrate; You say; This was never my argument. In fact it just reinforces my criticism of your analysis. Let me quote myself here; When you talk about an absence of moral and ethics within the capitalist system you are conflating issues. Capitalism is not a system of morals and ethics, it is a method of financial interaction. Capitalism exists within a field of competing systems of morals and ethics. Just as a car can be sold to a driver who drives like an asshole or someone who drives with the up-most concern for others safety, the car cannot be blamed for the behaviour of the driver. Capitalism is the car, systems of morals and ethics are the driver. *Furthermore your card analogy is just an example of you trying to pull rank with no evidence. If you have all the cards, why do you keep making such glaring analytical errors? Don't make me go back through all these posts and make a list of them haha Once again you've assumed something wrongly and made an argument against that assumption. You're playing with yourself, frank. Shut the fuck up. Or at least stop pretending to direct your stupid posts towards me. Learn to read. What's even more bizarre about this one is that you've chosen sematics over the usage of the word "system." I said it was a "system devoid of morals and ethics." That means, if you speak english, it's not a moral or ethical system. So for you to launch into arguing with me to say "Capitalism is not a moral or ethical system." leads me to believe you're from another planet. Frankly, we're in agreement. People are allowed to do what they want in a capitalist society. And then we have other institutions regulating those people so that they always uphold the best of human nature. Now if you want talk socioeconomics, game theory, psychology, genetics, and the evolutionary behavioral instincts of man and how it all pertains to Economics and OWS, Im all for it. And before you contest that I'm twisting your words, I'm really not. You just can't read and are so hot to trot on anything I say it blinds you from rationality. Give it a rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprotester Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 i have a hard time when people say they just don't know what this is about and we're a headless monster. we're a many headed monster and its the internet-age, if you can't find something its because you're looking in the wrong place or not looking at all but waiting for it to be delivered to you. I would have to take issue with you telling me I'm not looking at all. One of the main grievances in the Occupy Sydney committee was that there was no free wifi or power and facilities gifted to the protesters. That was put forward as a 'major issue'. I posted the article earlier in this thread. It's all well and good to say the monster has many heads, but it's impossible to expect the majority (not just the 99%.........................) to take it seriously unless there is some sort of direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 i wasn't specifically saying you, i meant the great 'you' of everyone who makes the complaint. i know you're paying attention to this, probably more than a lot who are into it. i agree with you, i don't know what the point of balance will be for a stand against aristocracy V. actually being heard. i also have a hard time keeping straight what i post in here and what i post in the ch0 thread.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I would have to take issue with you telling me I'm not looking at all. One of the main grievances in the Occupy Sydney committee was that there was no free wifi or power and facilities gifted to the protesters. That was put forward as a 'major issue'. I posted the article earlier in this thread. It's all well and good to say the monster has many heads, but it's impossible to expect the majority (not just the 99%.........................) to take it seriously unless there is some sort of direction. You're probably just looking in the wrong places. Listen to NPR. They get their money from pledge drives, so they're not too worried about corporate sponsors pulling their ad dollars like the rest of the news channels. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/10/07/141158199/the-friday-podcast-what-is-occupy-wall-street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 It's not that you won't. It's that you can't. Go for it. Stop being a faggot and back up your claims. Prove how I've flip flopped on my tone. I sure as shit point it out every time you do. Why? because I can. I've backed up every one of my points with news articles, quotations, and all the points of reference I thought you'd need. If you want me to back up anything, tell me and I'll point you to every source I've based my argument on. In fact I Want you to fact check me. But the clear problem you have isnt that im wrong, its that you have no idea what im saying. I swear English is foreign to you. Probably because you're Australian. Look at you dismissing the fact that you JUST repeated what i said almost verbatum, just in an argumentative tone. You have no comeback for that, do you? You fucking idiot. And you started with the petty bullshit when you negged me and spent the time to create a meme. Your entire bank of posts by the way shows you know nothing about Adam smith, Keynesian economics, or even libertarianism even though you claim to be an expert on austrian economics. Let me ask you a basic question, whats the difference between rothbard and friedman? Whats the invisible hand? What do economists think of the invisible hand today? Whats Keynesian economianther what role did it play in the federal government funding NASA? What is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and what role did they play in the CMO's? Oh and dude, I have never referenced nor used Wikipedia. So once again you're wrong. Give your faggot fingers a rest and step away from the keyboard. Anyway this came out and I was overjoyed. http://m.npr.org/news/front/141701559 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 http://m.npr.org/news/front/141701559 That, by the way, kills your entire argument "pricing externalities into the cost of things is either socialism or a command market and wouldnt work." So not only have you been wrong about methis whole time the original argument we've since been removed from thanks to your faggy meme, was wrong as well. Unless you have something to add to that podcast I think you're done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Oh shit that was you? I didn't even know you're the same illiterate retard as the whippet. Lolz. Anyway fm & fm were public groups made after the great depression. In response to the baby boomers they created legislation that required banks to loan to poor people and poor communities. They later became private and since going private they were one of the original groups to put CMO's or mortgage backed securities together. This is why they are blamed for tgehousing crisis. Every wannabe libertarian knows this, but negate the fact that they started fucking up now that they are now private. Keynesian economics focuses on GDP and claims all Gdp growth is good growth. He believed that spending was good and credit was good because so long as people bought the things they need then those purchases would pay for the self. Government spending like NASA and stimulus packages are fundamentally based on Keynesian economics which was government taking John Keynes too literally when he said that the government should stimulate spending. "economics" was the word I was spelling before my iPhone mutated it into whatever that is. The invisible hand refers to regulation of the free market through morals and ethics. Economists think the invisible hand is obsolete. And Friedman might've been for making the fed more efficient, but he was one of the biggest criticizers of the fed and big government and blamed them (and banks) for the recession. Public services like schools he liked. Rothbard just wanted it all abolished. I'm glad to see you have a basic understanding of these issues tho so I'll refrain from calling you a faggot for one post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 So you are saying that Adam Smith created capitalism? I'm not listening to a podcast, I have other shit to do. Send me an article if you want to prove me wrong. "I think you're done" There you go again, pulling rank without substantiating your authority. Give me a break. If you don't listen to it you're done, so you're done either way. You're my boat to cast off, faggot. Oh and I'm laughing at your post edit where you added in all that info about FM's involvement in CMO's. What happened? Instantly found yourself knowing more than you did before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup forgot his password Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 you both have become completely obnoxious. its like cilone and aod in the RP thread all over again. stfu or make a thread about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 ^^^ I think fist has mad a very valid observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 yep. i'm umad. initially it was about the inability of ows demands to function, that was worthwhile and made for good reading. now its, no u, nuh uh u. misquote misquote. red text. semantics. no u. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Hahaha, typo The back and forth is pretty annoying though, I wouldn't mind a less Buzz Killington style heated debate but this has deteriorated into the results of diarrhea dripping onto keyboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuntflaps Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 It reminds of the October Revolution in Russia back in 1917. Here are some of the somewhat forgotten decrees from the era. All Russian banks were nationalized. Private bank accounts were confiscated. The Church's properties (including bank accounts) were seized. All foreign debts were repudiated. Control of the factories was given to the soviets. Wages were fixed at higher rates than during the war, and a shorter, eight-hour working day was introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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