Toys post here...

[LUGR]

Jime

[Hua Guofang]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:16 AM, Fist 666 said:

I don't think its a "touchy" subject, but I think the problem with arrows is that too many people use them as a way to disguise the fact that their letters suck. Most doo-hickeys fall into that, imo. get straight letters down, then worry about flair. 

I reckon I've done about 5 arrows in the last ten years for this exact reason. Hell, I don't even do extensions because I don't feel I've gotten the actual letters down pat yet.

 

Any kind of flair comes only after you've taken the letters as far as you can.

[Hua Guofang]

Ha, repeating what Joker has already said....

[Limeliciouz]

7 hours ago, LUGR said:

Jime

Damn ur right chhh

[Limeliciouz]

@Hua Guofangthat’s just a long time to wait around feeling like ur not good enough

[Hua Guofang]

We each follow our own paths.

[Limeliciouz]

54 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

We each follow our own paths.

That’s fair. I’m sorry I think that came out harsher then I realized. My point was I don’t want to wait 10 years. I feel like I can work on my flow of solid letters and flair at the same time. I need to change things up otherwise I get bored. Dunno how people like doke get on. The same thing every time ffs

[ElbowMack187]

4 hours ago, Hua Guofang said:

We each follow our own paths.

That last thing you posted was tight bro .  . and them Mao simps were dope .

Speaking of simps 

I was going for statue /sing stype thing . the ugly squares are supose to be spot lights but they were to small for high detail 

[Limeliciouz]

@ElbowMack187that looks cool

[Ray40]

Hey guys, I am back after practicing the sketch joker gave me. I didn’t get to practice a lot cause of sports and school but I think I got better. Please critique

ps, is it a good throwie  in the corner.

[Banok1]

On 10/13/2019 at 7:07 AM, Limeliciouz said:

That’s fair. I’m sorry I think that came out harsher then I realized. My point was I don’t want to wait 10 years. I feel like I can work on my flow of solid letters and flair at the same time. I need to change things up otherwise I get bored. Dunno how people like doke get on. The same thing every time ffs

style takes time to evolve if you dont have the patience for that chances are you wont have the patience to stay with it for the long haul, everyone wants to be dope in a couple months everyone wants to be dope in a year and thats not realistic, listening to these guys advice will prob be the difference between you maybe getting nice alot sooner rather than later, or just staying in the same place...

[Joker]

3 hours ago, Ray40 said:

Hey guys, I am back after practicing the sketch joker gave me. I didn’t get to practice a lot cause of sports and school but I think I got better. Please critique

ps, is it a good throwie  in the corner.

 

 

 

 

These are definitely much better than where you were, but your line weights are still all over the place. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with that, and something you should keep under your belt for the future, but right now I'm hoping to teach you how your letters truly are... how they truly interact with one another. I can tell you really want to do your own thing, and I want to support that, but let's focus on nailing the basics, first. 

 

The throw-up: definitely have fun with those, but let's focus on your pieces right now. As for feedback on it... it's not terrible, but it's not something I would encourage getting up with at the moment. 

[Joker]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:07 AM, Limeliciouz said:

My point was I don’t want to wait 10 years. I feel like I can work on my flow of solid letters and flair at the same time. I need to change things up otherwise I get bored. 

There's definitely a chance you'll be doing burners in five years, but there's also a chance you won't. As long as you listen to the help you're being given and put that feedback to use, you'll progress rather quickly. 

 

I've seen a few writers have a mentor spend hours upon hours with them but they have their ideas and are more focused on those that what is being taught. Those same writers didn't last two years because they never got better. One of them was mentored by the same guy who taught me. He was talented but didn't listen. When I would bring it up with him he would always say "I don't want to do it like that" or  "my idea is better". The ideas were honestly really good, but the execution was horrendous because he skipped necessary steps in learning how to structure a piece, and how to properly build letters that work well with one another.

 

The basics... I can't stress enough how important the basics are. They take time but once it clicks... you're on your way. 

 

As for the need to constantly change things up - I absolutely relate to this. My structure is always the same but my build and style change often. It helps keep things interesting, especially after 34 years of doing this... 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Joker

[Ray40]

Thanks joker for the advice, I really appreciate it 

[LUGR]

@Ray40why do you love stingrays so much?

[LUGR]

On 10/13/2019 at 10:49 AM, ElbowMack187 said:

That last thing you posted was tight bro .  . and them Mao simps were dope .

Speaking of simps 

I was going for statue /sing stype thing . the ugly squares are supose to be spot lights but they were to small for high detail 

The vertical of the L leans back away from all the other letters.

 

The W is slightly forward from the other letters.

[ElbowMack187]

I see the l but not so much the w.do u feel its closere be cus its darker thwn the reat. Thats just the glair from the galve spray . the w isnt really darker tho. Just hard to get a pic cus ita shiney 

[Joker]

Because of the severe lean on the vertical bar of the L it gives the impression that it is leaning back toward the lighting. The O and W both look like they're sitting proud of the B, and the B looks to be sitting proud of the L solely due to the letter itself sitting lower than the L, and O sitting lower the B, and W lower than the O. 

 

All of this is probably due to your one-point perspective on the 3D being off. Set yourself a vanishing point, basically a dot that all your 3D lines will go to, and draw your 3D lines starting at the corner of a letter and finishing at the dot. If you do that for each corner, each letter, your perspective on the 3D will be correct. You can then make the depth of your 3D as shallow or as deep as you want. 

 

 

[Joker]

Here's a quick example...

[ElbowMack187]

51 minutes ago, Joker said:

Here's a quick example...

How would I do that if the point is behind the letter so to say ? 

I slanted the L to try to of sett the weight of the w so that the 3d point is behind the 3 letter center of the word. If that makes scence not defening it ..its deffinitly off . I'm suprised I wasnt called out on the shape of the 3d not follorwing the letter. O ...

I probly should have lied and been like i did that on purpus but I didnt and I thought they kinda go to the point it is not accuate but its also like 3 diffrwnt light source . .

I should have put the light source in thw bottom front and made it easyer on my self. 

Then I could have dont the same 3d asyour example 

[Joker]

@ElbowMack187- you can set your vanishing point anywhere you want. Like, anywhere. If your vanishing point is directly behind the B then that's where it is. You're setting all this stuff up in your initial sketch so all the extra lines don't matter, once you have your lines dialed in you can erase what you don't need/want, then color in your sketch. You can do the same for a painting as well. When you're working on something bigger, like a wall, you can spray a dot to represent your vanishing point, and then use that as a guide for where to create your initial 3D outline. No need to paint a line that goes all the way to the sprayed dot. 

 

Honestly you don't need to draw the long-ass lines to get the one-point perspective correct, You can set your dot and use it as a guide to draw the depth of your 3D at the correct angle - see the sketch below for what I mean.  

[ElbowMack187]

So I tryd and distroyed this canvas will try to fix it lol but yeah I normaly do do that but I disnt on this one it was not that off it was the e mostly and I did go over the blue with the lime green to hide it for my self later whwn I fix it 

Edited October 16, 2019 by ElbowMack187
Spelling eror

[Limeliciouz]

22 hours ago, Joker said:

There's definitely a chance you'll be doing burners in five years, but there's also a chance you won't. As long as you listen to the help you're being given and put that feedback to use, you'll progress rather quickly. 

 

I've seen a few writers have a mentor spend hours upon hours with them but they have their ideas and are more focused on those that what is being taught. Those same writers didn't last two years because they never got better. One of them was mentored by the same guy who taught me. He was talented but didn't listen. When I would bring it up with him he would always say "I don't want to do it like that" or  "my idea is better". The ideas were honestly really good, but the execution was horrendous because he skipped necessary steps in learning how to structure a piece, and how to properly build letters that work well with one another.

 

The basics... I can't stress enough how important the basics are. They take time but once it clicks... you're on your way. 

 

As for the need to constantly change things up - I absolutely relate to this. My structure is always the same but my build and style change often. It helps keep things interesting, especially after 34 years of doing this... 

I appreciate this. There’s just only so many times you can do a plain planked alphebet. What about the step RIGHT AFTER doing the very basics? 

 

How exactly do you ‘structure a peice’? How exactly do you ‘properly build letters that work well with one another’?

By being able to do the basic letter? I can do that. I don’t know how to build onto that. Anyone can copy a keyboard obviously I’m trying to develope style and flow.

 

I can see why alotta my sketches don’t flow. But I’m not getting how to flow in general and getting it right the first time. How to do it naturally. 

 

i thought graff was simple lmao. Been doing letters since kindergarten fs. Shouldn’t be too hard right.  

 

 

And @Ray40I love the colors u use. Imma say u shud take one pic of insta graff with similar letters to urs and bite ur letters to it. Make something look good. Fuck anyone in ur way. You’ll come to a point later, when ur confident in biting enough to want to create something yourself, that ull have the stamina of having ur stuff bashed and still able to carry on with it. Sometimes u just won’t get the encouragement. Other times ull get unexpected encouragement. Try to create a balance within urself. Keep the passion going. Someone just reminded me that graffiti has no rules. Run with it.

 

That said you do have to know the basics. Jokers right about that if u wanna make something from scratch, but honestly try biting first then if ur too bored about it. Do the basics later. Spend ages scrolling pintrest or insta looking at graff get on the streets n throw a couple tags. get into it. Looking forward to seeing what u come up with. 

 

 

 

 

[Limeliciouz]

I hope I didn’t come off rude I just really feel like quite frustrated at the moment. I do appreciate the help on here. I don’t want to seem ungrateful or like a dick in general. 

[Limeliciouz]

[Limeliciouz]

[LUGR]

On 10/15/2019 at 6:24 PM, Joker said:

There's definitely a chance you'll be doing burners in five years, but there's also a chance you won't. As long as you listen to the help you're being given and put that feedback to use, you'll progress rather quickly. 

 

I've seen a few writers have a mentor spend hours upon hours with them but they have their ideas and are more focused on those that what is being taught. Those same writers didn't last two years because they never got better. One of them was mentored by the same guy who taught me. He was talented but didn't listen. When I would bring it up with him he would always say "I don't want to do it like that" or  "my idea is better". The ideas were honestly really good, but the execution was horrendous because he skipped necessary steps in learning how to structure a piece, and how to properly build letters that work well with one another.

 

The basics... I can't stress enough how important the basics are. They take time but once it clicks... you're on your way. 

 

As for the need to constantly change things up - I absolutely relate to this. My structure is always the same but my build and style change often. It helps keep things interesting, especially after 34 years of doing this... 

@Limeliciouzplease reread this and think about it...slow down.

[LUGR]

@Ray40This one? Tighten it up. Think about a vertical and horizontal grid. Have the matching parts of each letter line up and work with each other. Avoid overlaps at this point, or take @Jokeradvice from recent pages. He has explained how alternating overlaps can work well.

[Ray40]

Thanks so much @LUGR, I really want to get good at these so I can get up with them and my character in my town

Edited October 17, 2019 by Ray40

[Joker]

15 hours ago, Limeliciouz said:

I appreciate this. There’s just only so many times you can do a plain planked alphebet. What about the step RIGHT AFTER doing the very basics? 

 

How exactly do you ‘structure a peice’? How exactly do you ‘properly build letters that work well with one another’?

By being able to do the basic letter? I can do that. I don’t know how to build onto that. Anyone can copy a keyboard obviously I’m trying to develope style and flow.

 

I can see why alotta my sketches don’t flow. But I’m not getting how to flow in general and getting it right the first time. How to do it naturally. 

 

i thought graff was simple lmao. Been doing letters since kindergarten fs. Shouldn’t be too hard right.  

 

 

I didn't take your reply as rude, but more frustration... and rightly so. Being a Graffiti writer is frustrating, even when you're at the tip of your game, it's frustrating. So, no, I wasn't offended by the post. But let me see if I can help answer some questions...

 

After Basics

After you are comfortable with the basics (which I think you are) is when you start messing around with how letters interact with one another, scale, adding arrows... bits... doo-dads, and the like. The letters stay fairly simple, still, but you start to teach yourself those little bits of style that set the piece apart from a straight block letter. Personally, I believe you're at this point so that's a separate conversation. 

 

How do you structure a piece

Not all pieces require a solid structure, but most benefit from it. There's plenty to argue that none of my pieces in the last ten years have structure, but I had a solid understanding of how to structure a piece before I started doing abstract Graffiti. A showstopper piece 99% of the time is going to have some solid structure to it, and by structure, I mean the overall piece looks like it was thought out from left to right. This doesn't always mean that the left mirrors the right, but for clarity I'm going to use a piece like that as an example:

 

 

Overall this piece has a solid arched-like structure. The right side of the A and the left side of the M are practically vertical which gives the overall structure of the piece a solid foundation. Think of it like building a home... kinda - the A and M are the support beams that give a solid foundation to hold the S, U, and E. I'm not saying all pieces need to mirror left to right, I'm saying that your piece will benefit if you consider the overall piece structure instead of letter by letter.

 

Does that help explain what I mean by structure? If not, let me know and I'll try to explain further. 

 

Building letters that work well with one another

Let's use the same piece to explain this one, too. So if you look at the A and M you'll notice how they both have the same overall build, just mirrored. Visually this allows the overall piece to read really well. Even the arrows coming off the sides are similar to one another, not the same... similar, and both have bits coming off the longer bar. This relates to those two letters reading well with one another even though they're not right next to each other. 

 

Let's go to the S... the left side of this letter nestles in really well with the right side of the A. It's technically not vertical on the left side, but it is made to feel as though it is by the subtle intersections between the A and S. The bottom of the letter holds the same arc the one next to it started off with, creating structure (see what I did, there?). 

 

On to the E... this letter has many of the same line weights and angles as the S, just a mirror reflection of it. Even though the top rounded bit is the same shape as the S (not a mirror of it, but the same) it still works because the bottom of the letter holds that same arc as the final letter, grounding the letter, while the rest of the letter has similar angles to the S. It kicks back into the S creating a natural home for the U, which fits into that area perfectly. It's like the writer planned it that way 😉

 

 

Basically, you want the overall structure to look/feel solid, but you also want letters that nestle perfectly into one another. Overlapping is the tried and true method for doing this, but usually when first starting out most writers don't play around with how their letters are interacting with one another... they're just overlapping because that's what they see. So play around with drawing just single letters and drawing two of your letters together - like the L and I, then the I and M, and so on. Don't worry about the others, just focus on how one interacts with the other and different ways they come together. Keep it simple, not block letters, but simple Graffiti style. 

 

I think you know you're further along than I'm making out, but I'm hoping to get you to understand your letters really well before moving on to next steps.

 

You know... I've told this story a lot but it might help me get my point across on why sketching is so important -

In the early 90s I had moved to the Bay Area and eventually was being mentored by Raevyn TWS. If you don't know who he is, look him up... or just open Spraycan Art. Anyway, he and I had been meeting once a week for about six months and trying to work out new ideas, different ways of bringing letters together, different styles... just constantly sketching ideas that never saw the light of day. Some of those studies made it into my blackbook as full pieces all colored in like a blackbook should be. Anyway, there was this big event in the city where Phase2 and Schmidlap were giving a talk and writers form all over the Bay would be there. I showed up with Raevyn and we ran into his crew mate Crayone... another heavy hitter from the area. Raevyn was talking me up telling Crayone about my work and how excited he was about the stuff I was doing, so Crayone started to flip through the pages of my blackbook. About five pages in he slammed the book shut and said "Looks just like your stuff, Rae". I was absolutely crushed. I had worked for six months non-stop to come up with some new shit, something that was mine, and a person whom I hold in high regard just told me my work is all stolen from Raevyn. Initially I wanted to quit and focus on skateboarding, but Rae told me not to worry about what Crayone said and to keep going. I spent every-fucking-day sketching, perfecting every letter, every connection option, everything. Eventually I found my own style, my own groove, and it put me on the path to the writer I became. So while I was crushed at the time by what Crayone said - he said exactly what I needed to hear. I think he knew I needed to hear it. I've never talked to him since that moment but when I do get the chance to I will let him know that I'm forever grateful for his honesty. 

 

So stay frustrated but let that inspire you to push through.