murder? - Terry Schiavo ordeal

[POIESIS]

^if your mom was all fucked

up and lifeless for 15 years straight i think you'd be on

the same vibe as her husband....

and this isn't as black and white as 'murder'.

on the flip, it would be interesting to hear some of her family members

reasons for their position.

[ghost citizen]

politicians do this crap all the time. they create a cultural rift that doesnt need to exist. same thing with gay marriage and all that unimportant crap. they do these things to make themselves seem needed and to distract us from important things which need attention. like all the money that went "missing" in Iraq.

it's that dudes wife let him choose. he has power of attourney over her. it's his call. just because some stranger who never met this woman has some religious or moral idea about how it should be handled doesnt mean it should have any imnpact. you know how many times doctors decide to pull the plug on people? how many times that happens everyday in this country? now what about the death penalty? what about giving the death penalty to the mentally ill?

when the government starts legislating morality we have a huge problem! I hate that with all my being!

[ODS-1]

Do you think this guy actually wants to let his wife die? I'm sure it's not an easy decision for this guy to make, but he wants to carry out the wishes his wife had.

[nomadawhat]

what happened with the republicans and their saving the sanctity of marriage argument. shouldn't the husband be making the desicion(s) that his wife entrusted him with while she was able to tell him? isn't this a value of a marriage that we must cherish and respect? guess they only want to use that argument when it comes to gay marriage.

[knuckle_game]

"“When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you and we will execute you.”

 

A beautiful quote from Randall Terry, lunatic anti-abortion wingnut.

Also the chief shit stirrer-upper in this fiasco.

 

from in these times:

 

Randall Terry Resurfaces

Christian right jumps into Terri Schiavo fray

 

By Barbara Miner

 

 

The so-called “Terri’s Law” signed by Gov. Jeb Bush on October 21 might better be named “Terry’s Law”—in honor of rabid anti-abortionist Randall Terry, who played a key role in mobilizing Christian fundamentalists to pressure Jeb and the Florida legislature to intervene in the heart-wrenching case of Terri Schiavo.

 

The case of the 39-year-old Schiavo, who has been in a persistent vegetative state for 13 years, raises emotionally difficult issues. But participants in the so-called right-to-life movement have little use for complexity, nuance and discussion. Flush with victory on various anti-abortion fronts, the movement has seized on the Schiavo case to rally the troops and push the view that this is just one more example of secular liberals (and Democrats) promoting a culture of death.

 

And Randall Terry—founder of Operation Rescue, pioneer in aggressive harassment of women seeking abortions and an advocate of a “Christian-based” nation—is in the thick of it.

 

National media have generally acknowledged that religious conservatives played a key role in pressuring the Florida legislature to jump into the Schiavo case. But few have publicized the central role of Terry.

 

No less an authority than Bob Schindler, Schiavo’s father, has acknowledged Terry’s crucial support.

 

“Our family asked Randall Terry to come, and we gave him carte blanche to put Terri’s fight in front of the American people,” Schindler said. “He did exactly what we asked, and more. Randall organized vigils and protests, he coordinated the media, he helped us meet with Governor Bush.”

 

Terry was a leader in the anti-abortion movement’s campaign in the ’80s and early ’90s to put clinics out of business through intimidation, harassment and violence.

 

In a 1995 speech, for example, Terry reportedly said of doctors who perform abortions, “When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you and we will execute you.”

 

Following an anti-racketeering lawsuit by the National Organization for Women, he agreed in 1998 to a permanent injunction against any future actions against clinics.

 

But Terry is back. He resurfaced last summer in Ponte Vedra Beach in northern Florida and formed a new organization, The Society for Truth and Justice. His first campaign was against the U.S. Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision striking down anti-sodomy laws, and he launched an “Impeach the Twisted Six” campaign with a rally in Jacksonville on August 9.

 

Turnout was low, however. But then came the Schiavo case and a ready-made platform for Terry’s demagoguery.

 

Regardless of how the courts may rule in the Schiavo case, Terry has warned that the anti-abortion movement will continue its campaign. “Life is life,” he said. But in an era of increasingly sophisticated medical technology, such slogans do little to answer complicated questions.

 

Many people, even conservatives, have taken the lesson from the Schiavo case that everyone should have a living will. But if religious extremists get their way, living wills may not be worth the paper they are written on.

 

When living will legislation first gained support in the ’70s and ’80s, the anti-abortion movement was adamantly opposed to demands for “death with dignity.” As the National Right to Life notes on its Web site (http://www.nrlc.org), living wills are used “to condition public acceptance of assisted suicide, mercy killing, and euthanasia.”

 

By and large, religious extremists lost their fight against living wills legislation. But Schiavo’s case appears to have re-energized the movement’s opposition to living wills, in the guise of opposition to euthanasia and assisted suicide.

 

Father Frank Pavone, director of Priests for Life, an extremist anti-abortion group involved in the Schiavo case, calls living wills “unnecessary and dangerous for patients, doctors and society.” And R. Albert Mohler, Jr., in an article for the Baptist Press News on October 20, warned that the Schiavo case is proof “that the culture of death is gaining new ground” and that “what has been styled as ‘voluntary’ euthanasia is now turning into involuntary euthanasia.”

 

Legislation currently before the Wisconsin Senate allows doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other medical personnel who morally disagree with the guidelines regarding feeding and hydration tubes to ignore living wills and advance directives. The legislation already has passed the Republican-controlled Assembly and is likely to pass the Republican-controlled Senate.

 

How this will all play out is unclear. But history has shown that Republicans are more than willing to align with the likes of Randall Terry if it suits their political purposes. In an election year, anything is possible.

 

http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=462_0_2_0_C

[ASER1NE]

Originally posted by nomadawhat@Mar 22 2005, 10:32 AM

shouldn't the husband be making the desicion(s) that his wife entrusted him with while she was able to tell him?

Quoted post

Yeah i Agree. And thats the whole issue. LEGALLY right now he is her Legal Guardian , and makes her desicions . He's been trying to fufill her wishes for a few years now. Its her Parents that are objecting, They want to keep her alive for some insane reason, and thats how its gotten all out of control and into congress and in the hands of selfish greedy politicians.

[S@T@N]

http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/03/...es-on-bill.html

 

 

-- I'm still pondering this situation. I was for the husband until I read this. Now I'm not sure. Read up:

 

 

The History and the Facts

 

The following information is taken from Dr. William M. Hammesfahr's Examination Report on Terri Schiavo, on 12 September 2002. Dr. Hammesfahr is a Nobel Prize nominated doctor who specialises in the diagnosis and rehabilitative therapy of brain-injured patients. He wrote:

 

 

"Ms Schiavo was in her usual state of good health until 2/25/90, when her husband reported that he was awakened from sleep approximately 6 AM by her falling. He reports that she was unresponsive. Paramedics were called, and aggressive resuscitation was performed with 7 defibrillations en route. In the Emergency Room, a possible diagnosis of heart attack was briefly entertained, but then dismissed after blood chemistries and serial EKG's did not show evidence of a heart attack. Similarly, a pulmonary or lung cause of the disorder was ruled out in the Emergency Room after normal blood gases and Chest X-Rays were obtained. The possibility of toxic shock syndrome was also entertained. The diagnosis of the cause of her condition was unknown. Her admission laboratory studies showed low potassium level, markedly elevated glucose level, and a normal toxic screen without evidence of diet pills or amphetamines. The abnormal potassium level and sugar level were found on admission to the Emergency Room and were successfully corrected by the hospital staff over the next several days. The patient had a difficult hospital course with the development of poorly controlled seizures and prolonged coma state requiring, for a time, ventilator support. However, the staff noted improvement, and it was recommended by several physicians that she be discharged to an intensive rehabilitation center. She was eventually transferred to Mediplex in Bradenton for intensive rehabilitation. She was poorly responsive. However, after a brain stimulator was placed in 11/90, the staff started to report greater interactions of the patient with her environment, including intermittently apparently following commands, turning her head to voice, tracking visually, etc. This pattern continued even after discharge to a nursing home, although her course from that time on included multiple medical problems including recurrent urinary tract infections and hospitalizations, at times with severely low episodes of blood pressure due to a lack of treatment of urinary tract infections ordered by the husband and subsequent urinary sepsis requiring hospitalization. During 1998, she was evaluated by Dr. James Barnhill, neurologist, who testified that he examined her for ten minutes and determined that she had no chance for recovery, and was in a persistent vegetative state.

 

 

With stimulation Terri improved and was interactive. Dr. James Barnhill examined her for ten minutes and said she was in a persistent vegetative state. A persistent vegetative state means the patient only has sleep-wake cycles and cannot interact or respond to others. Clearly Dr. Barnhill is quite wrong after his ten minute examination. Dr. Hammesfahr's findings after examining Terri were:

 

 

"The patient is not in coma.

She is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise. She responds negatively to poor tone of voice. She responds to music.

She differentiates sounds from voices.

She differentiates specific people's voices from others.

She differentiates music from stray sound.

She attempts to verbalize.

She has voluntary control over multiple extremities

She can swallow.

She is partially blind

She is probably aphasic and has a degree of receptive aphasia.

She can feel pain.

 

 

These were some of his observations:

 

 

On September 3, I spent from approximately 11AM until 4PM with Ms. Schiavo, returning the next day to also observe Dr. Maxfield and complete my portion of the exam (which duplicated that of Dr. Maxfield, so I observed without myself specifically repeating that part of the exam that same day). The exam was videotaped at my request. The exam started with the setting up of the video camera by the videographers, with Mr. Michael Schiavo present.

 

...Her mother then entered the room, coming toward her and speaking her name. The daughter immediately showed awareness of the presence of her mother, looking for her, then finding her visually when the mother was approximately 8 inches from her face. She then smiled and made sounds. Her father also entered the room with further apparent recognition by the daughter. The first part of this exam included observing her interactions with her mother and her father. Here she clearly was aware of them and attempted to interact with them: the sounds, facial expressions, and searching out and tracking them.

...I asked the mother to bring a tape of piano music. Two separate pieces were listened to. The first she appeared aware of the sound, but would not sing or interact significantly. The second she did interact making sounds with the music. She stopped making these sounds, when the music stopped.

...Alertness: The patient was alert throughout essentially the entire exam.

Responsiveness: The patient would immediately respond to sound, tone of voice and to touch and pain. With respect to responding to those around her, she had limited responsiveness to me personally until approximately 45 minutes into the exam. She started to look at me, against her traditional right gaze preference, about the same time that we started getting significant relaxation in her contracted left arm (the arm that had been contracted for several years.) She appeared to identify the sound of my voice, with the relaxation of the arm. From that point, she would generally look toward the sound of my voice when heard, attempt to find me visually, then track the sound of my voice in its movements, or track me if I was within approximately one foot of her eyes. Prior to that time, she did not track me, or try to locate me visually. When playing music, she had a clear preference to the specific sound track played, and would listen to piano music, but change levels of listening depending on the track played. Her attention to the music would not wander during the track she preferred. She would pick out her mother's voice or her father's voice separate from the music or other voices or sounds in the room, and re-fix her gaze to those people. She would tend not to blink when watching those people.

 

She ignored her husband's loud foot-tapping that went on for approximately five minutes at one point. She also ignored his voice and did not try to seek him out visually when he would at times interject comments during the exam or immediately afterwards.

 

 

It is evident that Terri Schiavo is responsive, and not only interacts with others and with her surroundings, but chooses who to interact with. She responds immediately to her parents, takes time to get to know the doctor, and ignores her husband who is being deliberately distracting. There are videos of Terri at The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation. Click on multimedia on the left sidebar and then go to the right of the page to Videos of Terri.

[S@T@N]

Ok, so in a court, it was found that there was convincing and

conclusive evidence that Terri did not wish to be kept alive if

in a vegitative state. Unfortunately I'm starting to doubt her

condition is "vegitative."

 

 

Also remember that the 1.6 million in Terri's trust fund would

have gone to charity had she been allowed to die while there

was any money left. Now there is none.

 

 

 

Final thought: Caused by eating disorder. Irony factor = 97

[Ferris Bueller]

Let her go.

Vegetative state for more than 15 years - I lived in Florida for 19 years, and the last year or two I was there all I heard about was this specific case. It disappeared, and here it is again. Jesus christ.

 

She is stuck in a bed, can't do shit. She can't recover.

She now has the disposition of a child and she really isn't going to go anywhere else from there. She only responds to her parents. She responds to music. They should try some sock puppets.

 

It's a sore subject and issue, and has certainly gone further than it needed to go. Beauracracy shouldv'e never been introduced in the first place - the husband possesses the right to make the choice for her from her.

 

This shit will be some made for TV movie - I can see it coming.

[Nekro]

Originally posted by ODS-1+Mar 21 2005, 10:10 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ODS-1 - Mar 21 2005, 10:10 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>What happened to this lady in the first place? I don't remember hearing about why she's brain dead.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

She was bulimic and fucked her body so she had a stroke.

 

Originally posted by ODS-1@Mar 21 2005, 03:50 PM

This shouldn't be a national issue in the first place. This is something for the family to work out. I don't think the president or all these religious nut protesters need to be involved, this is for the family to deal with.

Quoted post

 

Damn right. The only reason we're talking about this is because it inolved a [formerly] pretty white woman.

 

<!--QuoteBegin-why write?@Mar 21 2005, 11:11 PM

this shit is just fucked up, your killing a human being, if this was YOUR DAUGHTER would you want her to die? would you want to MURDER your own daughter? killing someone = murder, isnt that against the law?

 

she is alive, even if she is brain dead, i would not kill my mother or anyone related to me in any way....

Quoted post

 

If my brain was liquid like this girl's is, I'd be the first one to tell my parents to pull the plug. Dying's got to be more interesting than living unconsciously.

 

What this girl's parents aren't wrapping their heads around is that she ain't coming back. No matter how long they keep her hooked up, she's going to stay the way she is. Ain't nothing going to take away their pain or bring homegirl back to sense. They don't want to let go.

[ODS-1]

Holy shit this lady was bulimic and did this to herself? I thought she was in a car accident or something.

[S@T@N]

Originally posted by Ferris Bueller@Mar 24 2005, 12:27 AM

Let her go.

Vegetative state for more than 15 years-

 

She is stuck in a bed, can't do shit. She can't recover.

She now has the disposition of a child and she really isn't going to go anywhere else from there. She only responds to her parents. She responds to music. They should try some sock puppets.

 

 

Quoted post

 

 

 

= NOT VEGETATIVE.

 

Persistent Vegetative State: A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.

 

 

 

She has not lost total awareness of the environment, therefore, the

definitive vegetative state can not be applied to Terri Schiavo.

 

 

 

 

 

* and for those too lazy to read the article on the previous page that

I posted, it was saying that a Nobel prize winning neurologist backs up

the claim that she isn't in a vegetative state.

[!@#$%]

puh leeze.

a world famous neurologist also said she only had about ten percent of her brain left..

because the rest had turned to MUSH.

[ASER1NE]

The problem with that report is that its absolutely right IN 1990 , Her condition has gotten PROGRESSIVELY WORSE in the last 15 years. And none of those things are current or correct . If you look at different pictures of her over the last 15 years you can SEE the decline in her brain function .

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by ASER1NE@Mar 24 2005, 06:10 PM

The problem with that report is that its absolutely right IN 1990 , Her condition has gotten PROGRESSIVELY WORSE in the last 15 years. And none of those things are current or correct . If you look at different pictures of her over the last 15 years you can SEE the decline in her brain function .

Quoted post

 

 

 

"The following information is taken from Dr. William M. Hammesfahr's Examination Report on Terri Schiavo, on 12 September 2002. Dr. Hammesfahr is a Nobel Prize nominated doctor who specialises in the diagnosis and rehabilitative therapy of brain-injured patients."

[S@T@N]

Originally posted by ASER1NE@Mar 24 2005, 06:10 PM

The problem with that report is that its absolutely right IN 1990 , Her condition has gotten PROGRESSIVELY WORSE in the last 15 years. And none of those things are current or correct . If you look at different pictures of her over the last 15 years you can SEE the decline in her brain function .

Quoted post

 

 

Right, because stillframe pictures are an accurate depiction of brain

activity.

 

 

Symbols: This isn't a fucking fetus. You can't abort her because you

don't want her. She isn't vegetative, so any comment made about not

wanting to be a vegetable does not apply, and the choice is not her

husband's.

[Æ°]

Could she survive on her own without constant medical attention and machinery? Whether she's a vegetable or not, her body can no longer function on the most basic and essential levels that are needed to survive. If it's been a few years and you haven't been able to eat food, consider yourself lucky for being alive. This is one of those issues you could debate yourself dizzy over. And I've been trying not to discuss this with people because when I do it’s like getting wrapped up in an abortion debate and the arguments are basically the same. I'm not trying to tell anyone the way it is, I'm just letting you know what I think, and it isn't even my business in the first place. I'm just grateful that I haven't been in a situation where I have to make a choice like this.

 

It's a complicated situation, and I think it could be another example of some negative effects technology has on society. And as technology ‘progresses’ there will be a lot of shit like this going on. Think about all of the ethical questions that will arise in the future, when hospitals are just filling up with more and more bodies that can no longer support themselves, and are literally suspended in the moments that prelude death, due to technological 'advancements' in medicine.

 

To me the most interesting part is the government’s involvement in this decision that needs to be made. And it's all religious bullshit again. Jeb Bush wants legal custody? I bet this motherfucker just wants to steal some of the spotlight so he can get some christian conservative votes in 2008. And George Bush says something like, "It's always righteous to air on the side of life." This coming from a guy who thinks executing retarded kids (who aren't in a vegetative state) is a good idea, and lies to the world in order to start a war. Mainstream politics is overflowing with hypocrisy right now. It's another one of those things that will keep me laughing as the ship sinks.

[Ferris Bueller]

I bet I could pee on her face and she'd still smile.

Man, this is sad.

[trackstand]

What is really fucked up is the fact that they took her off of life support and now are talking about putting HER BACK ON AGAIN. You don't do that, you don't take some one off life support then argue whether they should remain off and die, and potentially put them back on. It's just making her situation ultimately worse.

 

If you ask my opinion, fucking kill her already. Get it over with, kill her. Leave it to fucking, fucking Jeb BUSH to turn an ethical debate into a political debate, this, just like abortion is not a place for politicians, it should be open to discussion for the person (if applicable and in this situation it is not), the family, the friends and the doctor, that should be all. Jesus fucking Christ. I really hope no matter how unresponsive I am, no matter how far gone I am, that the governor of my state never tries to raise a fucking eyebrow at whether or not I should be dying. Mind your fucking business, assholes... YOU ARE NOT GOD, quit trying to make up his mind.

[trackstand]

What I just wrote was irrelavent and ignorant. Im kind of drunk though.

[S@T@N]

8====D

[ASER1NE]

"The following information is taken from Dr. William M. Hammesfahr's Examination Report on Terri Schiavo, on 12 September 2002. Dr. Hammesfahr is a Nobel Prize nominated doctor who specialises in the diagnosis and rehabilitative therapy of brain-injured patients."

Quoted post

Ohh shit i didnt catch that .

 

But it brings up the big issue , Is she a Vegatable or not . The doc's for the husband say yes . The Docs for the Family say no. I think that anyone who Truly was wouldnt want to live like that , but in this case that line is blurry .

[bobthebuilder]

You know what, this should'nt even be an issue, thousands of people are dying currently because of way more fucked up circumstances and no one seems to give a flying fuck.

 

I don't care about them killing her, the fucked up thig is how tehy are doing it... they are basically starving her to death. For fucks sake give her a mean fix and let her die that way... hunger is pain.

[bobthebuilder]

BTW... she used too look pretty damn fine before her accident.

[S@T@N]

It's certainly very sad that this ordeal overshadowed the

school shooting massacre that occurred recently. However...

if you take another view on this situation and realize that it's

fundamentally is a battle between our legislative and judicial

branches of government, a battle between the rights of a

husband and the authority of public officials, and a need for

a serious revision of our "vegetative state" policy, it's easy

to see why it's so publicized.

 

 

 

 

Montesquieu is turning over in his grave.

[bobthebuilder]

You wanna know why the masacre at the school is not big news? Because it was an Indian reservation... the media cant blame the music the kids listened to etc. etc.

 

BTW if oyu guys didnt know, suicides rates on Indian reservations are as high as 75% in some tribes. fucked up? yes indeede.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by S@T@N@Mar 25 2005, 04:17 AM

and the choice is not her

husband's.

Quoted post

 

 

actually, legally it would appear it IS her husband's. One of the consequences of a legally binding marriage is that the spouse takes on an active say in your wellbeing - when you cannot. And that's a contract she entered before her brain disintegrated....

[villain]

Originally posted by bobthebuilder@Mar 26 2005, 12:37 PM

You know what, this should'nt even be an issue, thousands of people are dying currently because of way more fucked up circumstances and no one seems to give a flying fuck.

 

I don't care about them killing her, the fucked up thig is how tehy are doing it... they are basically starving her to death. For fucks sake give her a mean fix and let her die that way... hunger is pain.

Quoted post

 

 

This is pretty much how I feel about the issue. It's overpoliticized. There's much bigger problems in the world.

Starving to death is a shitty way to go. I've almost died this way several times. For real they need to euthanize her already. Somebody call Kevorkian.

[villain]

Apparently state officials (ahem* jeb *ahem) tried to take custody of terry schiavo.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ze_exclusive_wa

[ASER1NE]

Whoa thats fucked up , but typically american . If you want something just take it.