2nd ammendment being justified by 2020 candidates

[Kults]

19 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

Do you think better mental health care in America and at least background checks on all gun sales and records kept of when guns change hands would help?

 

AFAIK they already do that and cant keep track of them regardless

 

 

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdbd9y/the-atfs-nonsensical-non-searchable-gun-databases-explained-392

[Mercer]

23 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

Do you think better mental health care in America

Yes, 100%. I think better mental health is the best method to reduce violence. At the same time I think this is outside of the scope of the governments responsibilities.

 

23 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

and at least background checks on all gun sales and records kept of when guns change hands would help?

There are already background checks, and an entire slew of red tape required. As stated earlier. every pair of "wrong hands" starts out as a pair of "right hands" and legislation can't contol one set of hands turning into the other. Backgrounds checks are only effective up to a point, and will never be a fully reliable measure.

 

23 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

I suppose it doesn't matter really. You could stop selling guns in the US now and you already have enough.

Sort of correct, but even this is complicated. The majority of people considered "the right hands" legally, would immediately lose access. This reduced access would eventually trickle out to, and effect access for some "wrong hands" eventually, if there were less guns availiable overall. This doesn't stop the "wrong hands" for using other methods.

 

Besides, people use cars, knives, their bare hands more often when there are less access to firearms making the matter even more complicated. Plus you have to factor in the real life gun violence these laws create when it ultimately leads to officers showing up to raid homes armed with guns. When weighed against the actual effect of gun control laws, which at best only reduce the potential for gun violence it just doesn't add up IMO.

 

 

[Decyferon]

From an outsiders view (and not a dig at anyone and more a personal gripe) I hate the comparison people make with guns and cars. Cars are multipurpose and are a function society needs, whereas guns arent. Again not a dig or anything at anyone but it's always a comparison people always make.

 

To be honest, I'm speaking from a uneducated to guns point of view, I just find it interesting seeing everyone's views.

[misteraven]

2 hours ago, Joker said:

Seeeeeee... I told you there would be links and graphs and shit. LOL!

 

Thanks for the links, but you didn't answer the one question I was hoping you would... Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? I'll assume most gun owners feel that it's not their problem, but if anti-gun advocates want to take your guns because idiots keep killing innocent people and folks are getting tired of this being the norm, wouldn't responsible gun owners be interested in a solution to silence the critics? I get it, you have stats that should silence them, but stats are not helping. 

 

And I understand guns aren't even in the top ten of what kills Americans. The number of auto deaths and gun deaths are pretty close from year to year (well, it seems that way. Many graphs to look at from many resources but all are pretty similar so I'm assuming that rings true), but disease is by far the biggest killer of Americans. I get all that. 

 

I'm asking do responsible gun owners have thoughts on how to curb the violence around the tool they love.

 

 

Sorry, I'll try and answer that question specifically.

 

First of all, you'd have to investigate where the guns used in the majority of crimes are coming from to begin with. Though I'm sure guns are occasionally stolen, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority doesn't come from that or it would be a big talking point. Also, you'd probably have to differentiate between mass murders and standard gun violence as I'd postulate that the guns used in both are likely very different and very likely procured in different manners.

 

But looping back to your question...

 

2 hours ago, Joker said:

Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands

I can't speak for everyone on this topic, but as a gun owner I would say, you're looking at the wrong demographic for a solution. The overwhelming vast majority of gun owners aren't any type of problem. They aren't even in the chain of events that ultimately culminate into the problem. With many thousands of gun laws on the books at the Federal level and many thousands more on the books at the state level, why would you look at the responsible gun owner as a subject for a question like that? That's similar to blaming the NRA for the mass shootings, when no mass shooter has ever been even remotely tied to that organization, rather than looking at the mass shooter and the actual circumstance that led to what made them go crazy. How often are those kids the victims of bullying or some sort of social alienation or extremely marginalized (not a valid excuse, but seems to be a pretty common theme), yet the knee jerk response is to blame gun owners and the NRA. Another interesting comparison is how often we decide to hold religion responsible, when someone conducts violence on behalf of some religious belief. Should we hold all muslims accountable for the actions for the few extremists that are responsible for mass murder? Should we expect the average practitioner of the faith to modify their religion somehow as a possible preventative measure for those few that wind up becoming extremists and decide to conduct violence due to some skewed interpretation of that religion?

 

As I've been stating all along a gun is simply a tool and the tool isn't the issue. It's the deeper, more complex issues that nobody cares to address, like socioeconomics and the state of healthcare and all the stuff that stems out of both that is the problem.

[Mercer]

 

42 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

From an outsiders view (and not a dig at anyone and more a personal gripe) I hate the comparison people make with guns and cars.

More of a misunderstanding really. You have to understand the perspective of someone living in the US. We find guns are extremely useful tools here for a multitude of reasons.

 

Unlike in most of Europe, many Americans live in rural areas, sometimes with large predators roaming about. Some Americans live in, need to travel through, and conduct business in high crime areas as well. Likewise It's much more common in America to be more than an hour away from any law enforcement showing up. The wise acknowledge we're all responsible for our own safety as individuals, relying on the government just isn't a realistic solution for most. Nothing excuses this responsibility we have for our safety (age, sex, race, etc.) which is why most of the people who choose to carry do so.

 

Many of us in America feel like having the ability to go about our business unharmed, and without fear in our daily lives provides arguably the same freedom/convenience owning a vehicle does for many of us. 

 

Quote

Cars are multipurpose and are a function society needs, whereas guns arent.

Here is where you're failing to understand where we're coming from with that comparison. I think it's valid to use when even more people die from cars, and cars are used as tools to injure/kill large numbers of people by deranged individuals.

 

This doesn't even touch on our sense of duty when it comes to defending our country. In Europe, this sense of duty is only associated with the Sate, whereas in America, many of us feel it's the responsibility of the individual to uphold freedom. We successfully fought a tyrannical government off that wanted to take away this right at the birth of our country. To many, this right to bear arms that we fought for, and won is more than just a useful tool like a car. For many of us, the ability to fight a tyrannical government is a core feature of our identity, and a major part of the foundation everything we stand for is built upon. 

 

This is where most of the confusion comes from. Guns do in fact serve a very important purpose, and role in many of our daily lives.

 

Quote

Again not a dig or anything at anyone but it's always a comparison people always make.

Didn't come off like that at all.

 

Quote

To be honest, I'm speaking from a uneducated to guns point of view, I just find it interesting seeing everyone's views.

Most of us are in the same boat. One of the best things about this board is seeing other's perspectives.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Mercer

[misteraven]

2 hours ago, KILZ FILLZ said:

Proof of gun safe ownership = discount on guns and ammo purchases would be a nice incentive for more people to lock their shit up. 
 

I don’t really know too much else that could be done by the individual owners. We aren’t the ones getting guns made in Austria into the hood. 

Safest place for a gun is on my person.

 

I don't keep any of my guns in a safe because I wouldn't want have to scramble for my gun when its needed. In fact I have a shotgun by the door and can say from first hand experience that if a grizzly is charging one of my dogs or one of my kids, I'd be hard pressed to pull it into action at only a couple steps away. Unlikely that someone would break into my house where I live, but same applies there. Perhaps I would reconsider the situation in a different environment, if I believed that my house was a likely target to be robbed. But then again if I lived in an area like that, I'd also likely double down on guns as well.

 

My kids understand what guns are and I know that they respect what they are capable of. We're very involved in their day to day lives and don't count on the school system to raise our children. We talk to them often and go to great lengths to raise stable, compassionate little humans. I live in a place where gun ownership is far more common than average and maybe its coincidence, but people here are also a lot more polite and friendly on average as well.

[Joker]

@misteraven- I wasn't blaming gun owners for gun violence or suggesting that gun owners are directly responsible for mass shootings - nor is the NRA or anyone who supports the NRA - I'm not that dumb. I was asking if gun owners have any thoughts about how to keep wackos from getting guns and using them in cruddy ways... which you answered, which is basically what I'd read somewhere else. 

 

I think a lot of people realize that healthcare and socioeconomics are the bigger issue, but  it's a big issue that is going to take a lot longer than you and I have left on this planet to resolve... probably longer than several lifetimes. And my guess is that in that time things will only get worse, never better. 

[Mercer]

3 minutes ago, misteraven said:

don't count on the school system to raise our children.

Could possibly be the wisest statement ever written on the internet.

[Dirty_habiT]

1 hour ago, Decyferon said:

Do you think better mental health care in America and at least background checks on all gun sales and records kept of when guns change hands would help?

I suppose it doesn't matter really. You could stop selling guns in the US now and you already have enough.

The problem with this is, again like drugs, it doesn't prevent private sales.  That's like trying to say if you sell crack cocaine, you have to pay 10% of your sale in taxes.  I don't think any drug dealer is going to start doing that.  This would be exactly like that, nobody is going to be honest when they're selling stolen weapons to criminals for the purpose of doing criminal activities.

 

 I think the best defense we have is to have armed citizens.  This won't stop every shooting, but it  will cut down drastically on the amount of people killed in a shooting if someone that isn't the police is able to subdue the shooter with deadly force.  Of course expecting everyone to have a gun is silly because there are plenty of people out there that don't want a gun at all and have never shot one.

[misteraven]

Related:

 

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

 

Summary: 

WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

 

Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to citizens based on the public duty doctrine.

 

------------

 

https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect

 

[Dirty_habiT]

59 minutes ago, Decyferon said:

From an outsiders view (and not a dig at anyone and more a personal gripe) I hate the comparison people make with guns and cars. Cars are multipurpose and are a function society needs, whereas guns arent. Again not a dig or anything at anyone but it's always a comparison people always make.

 

To be honest, I'm speaking from a uneducated to guns point of view, I just find it interesting seeing everyone's views.

Many people that love automated cars and public transit/bike lanes would definitely disagree with "cars being something people need to survive."

[Dirty_habiT]

@misteraven- you sound like you're raising your kids exactly how I was raised.  My grandparents had a ~300 acre ranch in Sabinal, TX when I was growing up.  We were out there all the time.  While guns were a part of life out there, we didn't shoot them all the time.  We were taught that they are absolutely not toys, they're very dangerous, and barrel control.  To this day I still cringe at people that have poor barrel control even if they're "experienced" with guns.  My dad/uncles told my cousins and I that we could go out and shoot our pellet guns but we were absolutely not allowed to shoot any animals.  If we did shoot an animal we were told that we would have to clean and eat that animal.  That was enough to make me never kill anything for no good reason, and that still lives with me today.  I am not a bhuddist monk or anything but I definitely do not destroy life for no reason.  I'm not saying I'm the model citizen or anything, but I have a healthy respect for guns and it is because I grew up around them.

 

The one gun I have now stays put away but within easy access if it's needed.  It hasn't been needed yet, nobody should even know that I have it until they're being shot with it for home invasion.

[Decyferon]

1 hour ago, Dirty_habiT said:

Many people that love automated cars and public transit/bike lanes would definitely disagree with "cars being something people need to survive."

I'm 41 and don't drive, no license, it's pointless where I live,  I'll walk anywhere quicker under 10 miles 

I'm no eco person, I fucking love cars, v8s v10s 

Public transport makes me a psycho

[misteraven]

Its kind of funny cause its only become a thing in the last few decades after many more decades of it being routine. Though there are still a few High Schools with shooting teams, there was a time when it was fairly common. 

 

I'm willing to bet that in some countries seeing Americans walk around with a pocket knife clipped to their belt or pocket must seem off as well. The way we're going, that'll become a social taboo as well, despite the fact that they're so handy and so common in most parts of the USA today. 

 

 

[Decyferon]

It's a weird duality, I respect hunting, butchery etc but even seeing a hunter carrying a gun would spook me, even though he has it for a legitimate reason, I'm not used to seeing a gun. 

[Decyferon]

And I'd love to hunt, I'm not being a crying liberal haha

[Decyferon]

22 minutes ago, misteraven said:

Its kind of funny cause its only become a thing in the last few decades after many more decades of it being routine. Though there are still a few High Schools with shooting teams, there was a time when it was fairly common. 

 

I'm willing to bet that in some countries seeing Americans walk around with a pocket knife clipped to their belt or pocket must seem off as well. The way we're going, that'll become a social taboo as well, despite the fact that they're so handy and so common in most parts of the USA today. 

 

 

You're right, seeing armed American civilians is kind of unnerving,  not sure why, you have no problem with me.

[Decyferon]

Hahah my passport just got approved,  maybe I'll be refused access to the US 

[Dirty_habiT]

2 hours ago, misteraven said:

Its kind of funny cause its only become a thing in the last few decades after many more decades of it being routine. Though there are still a few High Schools with shooting teams, there was a time when it was fairly common. 

 

I'm willing to bet that in some countries seeing Americans walk around with a pocket knife clipped to their belt or pocket must seem off as well. The way we're going, that'll become a social taboo as well, despite the fact that they're so handy and so common in most parts of the USA today. 

 

 

Lol, I have 3 nice Ruike pocket knifes that I alternate between.  It is one of the items I grab every morning before leaving to work, along with my keys and wallet.  I work as a DevOps Engineer....

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, misteraven said:

I'm willing to bet that in some countries seeing Americans walk around with a pocket knife clipped to their belt or pocket must seem off as well. The way we're going, that'll become a social taboo as well, despite the fact that they're so handy and so common in most parts of the USA today. 

I remember when I had to do community service in NYC 2010, a good number of the people I did community service with were in for having a "Gravity Knife". Basically they made a law against gravity knives, and defined a gravity knife loosely to include "any knife one could open with one hand". This put the owner in the same semi-violent misdemeanor status as being found with other "illegal" knives like switchblades/stilettos. One of the guys I spoke with told me the work knife's manufacturer that they charged him for having on his belt  as a gravity knife even wanted to send a representative to testify it wasn't a gravity knife but it didn't matter. Got a plea deal that left no record, but required community service and he took it. Honest construction worker just walking down the street and stopped by NYPD who were no doubt under pressure to make quotas and things must have been slow..

[Dirty_habiT]

@Decyferon- Please hit me up if you come to Austin, TX and I'll take you to shoot some guns (if you want to).... not just the typical stuff most people have either.  I have access to these via a friend that owns them.  They're a blast to shoot, cornball joke intended.

 

Mosin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant

VZ 58: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

SKS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

Russian AK-47's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Russian Makarov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_pistol

 

I think if you shoot a gun and see that it's actually a skilled activity that costs money to do.... you'll have a different respect for it and probably less fear of them.  Not only can I show you what shooting some guns is all about, but I can show you what legendary Texas bbq is like.

[Decyferon]

Had me at bbq man

[Fist 666]

Carolina style > Texas style, imo. @DecyferonIf you visit you'll have to try both.

 

@MercerThat gravity knife story is infuriating.  

 

Most of my edc knives are over legal length and a couple are autos, always "gravity" by the one handed definition. I've only been asked by police once and I said the knife in question was issued to me by the army for my Afghanistan deployment, which changed the subject and kept the knife in my possession. 

 

I haven't maintained my ccp for the last several years,  but always found it amusing that I was legally carrying a .38 buy illegally carrying a spyderco, which could compromise the legality of my .38.

 

Laws.....

[Dirty_habiT]

^^ Alright Ford vs. Chevy guy.  Do we need to make a bbq thread to discuss  the merits of how the ways of cooking and seasoning meat are different in various parts of the country?  Please don't say you guys have good Mexican food over there, I'll eat my hat.  Next we can argue NY vs Chicago pizza, then Muslim vs. Christianity..... see where I'm going?  No need to state your opinions like a math equation that is typically perceived as fact by people that are good at math.  You could say something like "I think that South Carolina bbq is good for xyz reason, but I like Texas bbq because xyz reason."

 

Here, I'll show you..... I think that Carolina bbq is good because they have a different kind of sauce than you typically see in TX.  It's a mustard based sauce and TX typically uses red sauces.  What is in them, I don't know because I've never made them and I don't buy them either.  I guess people use bbq sauce to cook chicken on the grill but I don't really like that kind of meat.

 

Texas recently, within the past few years, got rid of laws against any kind of knife.  This means it's legal to carry swords and knifes of any size/action.  I think brass knuckles might be legal now too in that same law.

 

Good morning guys!

[Hua Guofang]

10 hours ago, Dirty_habiT said:

@Decyferon- Please hit me up if you come to Austin, TX and I'll take you to shoot some guns (if you want to).... not just the typical stuff most people have either.  I have access to these via a friend that owns them.  They're a blast to shoot, cornball joke intended.

 

Mosin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant

VZ 58: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

SKS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

Russian AK-47's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Russian Makarov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_pistol

 

I think if you shoot a gun and see that it's actually a skilled activity that costs money to do.... you'll have a different respect for it and probably less fear of them.  Not only can I show you what shooting some guns is all about, but I can show you what legendary Texas bbq is like.

Yeah, man, I've done the Salt Lick thing and a bunch of home done BBQs at friend's houses in Tx and I aint buyin it. Y'all shower that shit in sauce so much that the meat is almost an after thought. Roaring Fork does good meat and there's something to say about hitting Austin Wholefoods when you feel the need to eat. Best fucking supermarket on the planet. I'll likely never get back to Austin again and I'll always miss it but am so glad I got to spend serious time and work there.

 

On topic, went to a range there as well and let go with some .22, 5.56 and 9mm. Not sure where it was, not far from a single line layup on the side of the road. Bunch of farms around the area, not more than 25 mins out of town.

[Dirty_habiT]

Look at you guys, I offered to show a fellow forum member a thing he would not have had anywhere else.  And here you are with your assumption and lawyer hats on.  This is better than this, you guys slather your meat...

 

Let me help you guys.  I've had South Carolina bbq before, it was pork.... that's what they're known for, it was vinegary mustard based sauce.  It was not bad, I won't knock it because I don't need to.  The guy that served it said "oooh you're from Texas, then you have to try our brisket."  Their brisket sucked balls.

 

I don't use sauce on my bbq at all because good bbq doesn't need sauce..... so I dunno what this "ya'll do blahbablhalbhbhlh, " thing is that you're talking about @Hua Guofang.  I've never been to Salt Lick because it's not as good as the places I do go.  Roaring fork is ok, but it's overpriced and they don't do anything special that other places around can't beat for less money.  Whole(paycheck) is just a hippy grocery store, who cares.

 

On topic:  We just shoot guns on peoples' property that we know.  I haven't been to a range in over 20 years.

[Hua Guofang]

Well, I agree fully on the no sauce thing - salt is the only thing I go for on meat. And whilst roaring form is definitely expensive, they serve pretty good meat. Wholepaycheck is hippy but so fucking what, you can eat really well there, drink beer and wine, see hot chicks, etc. and it was a stone's throw from the corp apartment I lived in. Fuck that, I loved it.

 

Salt Lick was seriously shit, IMO. But everyone at work talked about it like it was the pride of the town. They took me to a bunch of dingy Mex food trucks somewhere in the southwest that was awesome. Hadn't even heard of Mexican coke before that. There was also a pretty cool late night food areas somewhere down on 6th that had a double decker bus, I went to about 10 years back after getting a skin full in a bunch of dingy bars close by. First time I tried choc coated bacon. Was drunk, NFI if it was good but the chick who served me was a BBW goddess that loved my accent. Would have surfed her waves of butter fat if I weren't already spoken for.

 

Anyway.....

[Fist 666]

@Dirty_habiTLol. I just prefer  pork to beef, sauce is irrelevant imo. If  bbq REQUIRES special sauce, then its wrong. Carolina sauce is as you've described, but whole hog is the detail that sets it above the rest, though. The only sauce I ever actually use on my preferred spots' meat is Texas Pete (does that mean we can be friends?), but I usually just put that on the grits and greens and it spills over onto meat.

 

And no, there is zero good mexican food in this state as far as I can tell and it makes me homesick for Colorado--which has legit mexican, and I'll fight about it. 

 

The most popular local bbq spot here is total garbage. It has a ton of hype because Obama ate there once, who fucking cares?  

________

And there is no ford vs chevy, I only buy imports.' Yotas and 'Rus. (Though the 4 door diesel rangers the Afghan Border Police had were fucking incredible and would own/drive one in a heart beat if there available in USDM)

________

 

Also haven't been to a range in a long time, just shoot on my own property, but I don't have anything over 25m because my property is the side of a mountain. 

[Dirty_habiT]

I haven't had Texas Pete but because you say it's good I might get some..... although, I'm not sure what I'd try it on.  I feel like we need a bbq thread.  I'll make one for us.

[Fist 666]

Pete is a kind of standard vinegar sauce with better/deeper flavor than tabasco or any of the standard sauces at shitty restaurants. I wouldn't go out of your way to try it.