discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Krakatau]

Those are the kinds of semantics that get you put on FBI watch lists, man. Just say yes.

Fundamentalists are off base regardless of whether they adhere to Islam, Christianity, or any other religion. If there is one thing that should be universal in how people approach religion, it should be the understanding that things aren't exactly meant to be taken literally. Parables.

 

 

.....I don't understand the quote you threw at me.

[The Hater]

Thank you for your help Dawood. I appreciate it.

 

Extremism is a better word. Sorry. But But I have found that fundamentalism leads to extremeism. America thinks it can solve this problem by occupying the Kingdom if Islam, but I disagree. I think Muslims need to deal with it.

 

What do you think is the solution for extremism?

[Dawood]

Originally posted by The Hater@Dec 5 2005, 06:07 PM

What do you think is the solution for extremism?

Quoted post

 

 

Thats a question for somebody far more equipped than I am.

 

I can look something up for you from someone with more insight than myself and get back to you on that one. Thats a heavy question, bro

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Krakatau@Dec 5 2005, 05:07 AM

Those are the kinds of semantics that get you put on FBI watch lists, man. Just say yes.

Fundamentalists are off base regardless of whether they adhere to Islam, Christianity, or any other religion. If there is one thing that should be universal in how people approach religion, it should be the understanding that things aren't exactly meant to be taken literally. Parables.

 

 

.....I don't understand the quote you threw at me.

Quoted post

 

I'm already on an FBI watch list , no doubt, I am muslim, They have been to visit me before, I live right next to a mosque (or as we call it "masjid"). I don't worry about the FBI much because I don't break the law. As far as how to approach religion, I know christians use parables and interpret the bible to fit their fancy, but Muslims don't interpret the Quran on our own, we take it literally,and understand it according to how the prophet Muhammad and his companions understood it. Of course everything has to be placed in it's proper context and Allah tells us to ask the people of knowledge if we don't know (meaning about something in the quran or rulings for the religion) But , Islam is a way of life, not just like an excercise program or a philosophy that you incorporate into your life. Islam IS the way of life. Nothing was left out of Allah's religion for the faulty intellects of men to figure out. Not to say that you shut off your brain and stop thinking for yourself, It's just that Islam gives the person a practical framework to go by. Islam is easy on people, and Allah does not burden a soul with more than it can bear.

 

As far as the quote , you were talking about crawling out of the ocean, I quoted what Allah said in the Quran about every living thing coming from water.

[imported_dowmagik]

if it said in the quran that on monday, you should wear only orange, would you? be honest.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by dowmagik@Dec 6 2005, 07:18 PM

if it said in the quran that on monday, you should wear only orange, would you? be honest.

Quoted post

 

If the quran was filled with unpractical little ordinances that had nothing to do with purification and right guidance I would not have become muslim in the first place, nor would Islam be the fastest growing religion on earth.

[MrJackDaniels]

the egg came first, the chicken was a cross breed.

[RoboThruster]

Originally posted by Dawood+Aug 10 2005, 11:19 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Aug 10 2005, 11:19 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-RumPuncher@Aug 9 2005, 07:01 PM

But then again.... find me an evangelical who really cares about other religions.

I swear they're just as bad as Dawood. (haha... just making sure you were reading this)

Quoted post

 

There are no other religions.....

 

What do you mean as bad as Dawood?

 

he-he-he

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

I'm glad someone understands. This kind of rhetorical interpretation of religion can give the underlying concept of it a bad name.

 

You should be careful Dawood. It says in the Koran that the Christians and Jews believe in the same God as that of Islam. Granted it says those relgiouns have been corrupted to some degree, but if memory serves correctly, it also says those of those faiths who geniunely aim to be good people ( I think the english interpretation says something like those who "serve Allah and do good deeds") will be rewarded.

[John Birch]

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 7 2005, 12:26 AM

...nor would Islam be the fastest growing religion on earth.

Quoted post

 

 

islam is only growing because muslim fundamenatlists are using genocide, murder, rape and other shit such as maiming and terrorism to force people to convert, which is how islam was spread in the first place. Although there are some poeple, such as yourself, who converted out of the goodness of their own heart, most people are forced... think india, Burma (mynanmar), malaysia and especially Darfur/sudan and Somalia.

 

Do you know how Aceh became islamic? The king thought that alliances with islamic kingdoms would be better for trade and thus converted and forced all his people to also. Hundreds of years later now people in that country/region murder and fight to spread that religion even though their ancestors were murdered and tortured into converting...

[gasfacevictm]

Originally posted by loopdeloop@Dec 2 2005, 03:42 AM

there is no anything no God no whatever whe are just here because we just happend to be in the right place at the right time in the universe.there is no miracle or anything just coincidence. well thats my point of view anyway..

Quoted post

 

 

some people believe that this whole concoction was created to grow as it did. not that we were placed here but that the system of science and everything is what it is because it was made that way to thrive over time. is this intelligent design? i'm not very up on this topic because of years of catholic school and the fact that i just don't have faith in shit i can't see as tangible but the arguement is not bad. i mean science can explain how shit works but not where it came from. catolic school, good lord it hurt. so much guilt for no reason at all.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by RoboThruster+Dec 7 2005, 04:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RoboThruster - Dec 7 2005, 04:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 10 2005, 11:19 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-RumPuncher@Aug 9 2005, 07:01 PM

But then again.... find me an evangelical who really cares about other religions.

I swear they're just as bad as Dawood. (haha... just making sure you were reading this)

Quoted post

 

There are no other religions.....

 

What do you mean as bad as Dawood?

 

he-he-he

Quoted post

 

 

I'm glad someone understands. This kind of rhetorical interpretation of religion can give the underlying concept of it a bad name.

 

You should be careful Dawood. It says in the Koran that the Christians and Jews believe in the same God as that of Islam. Granted it says those relgiouns have been corrupted to some degree, but if memory serves correctly, it also says those of those faiths who geniunely aim to be good people ( I think the english interpretation says something like those who "serve Allah and do good deeds") will be rewarded.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

Actually, that is referring to the ones who actually followed the prophets like moses and Jesus, Not the people of today who follow corrupted paths. because Allah says in the Quran

 

 

O you who believe! Fear Allâh (by doing all that He has ordered and by abstaining from all that He has forbidden) as He should be feared. [Obey Him, be thankful to Him, and remember Him always], and die not except in a state of Islâm (as Muslims) with complete submission to Allâh.

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85)

 

Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâm. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account. (Aali Imran 3:19)

 

O people of the Scripture (Jews and christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (Aali Imran 3:71)

 

 

so there are plenty of proofs against other religions , Allah is saying that only Islam will be accepted from him as a religion, As far as the verse you mentioned where Allah says the Christians and Jews will be rewarded..

 

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians), those who believe in Allâh and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allâh. They do not sell the Verses of Allâh for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allâh is Swift in account. (Aali Imran 3:199)

 

again, that is referring to the ones amongst them who accepted Islam during the time of the prophet Muhammad and also the ones from earlier generations who followed the prophets before Muhammad.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by gasfacevictm+Dec 7 2005, 08:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gasfacevictm - Dec 7 2005, 08:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-loopdeloop@Dec 2 2005, 03:42 AM

there is no anything no God no whatever whe are just here because we just happend to be in the right place at the right time in the universe.there is no miracle or anything just coincidence. well thats my point of view anyway..

Quoted post

 

 

some people believe that this whole concoction was created to grow as it did. not that we were placed here but that the system of science and everything is what it is because it was made that way to thrive over time. is this intelligent design? i'm not very up on this topic because of years of catholic school and the fact that i just don't have faith in shit i can't see as tangible but the arguement is not bad. i mean science can explain how shit works but not where it came from. catolic school, good lord it hurt. so much guilt for no reason at all.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

I hear you about catholic school , man...religion is like anything else, It's a double edged sword, you can use your sword to defend the safety , honor and property of the people or you can use that same sword to destroy and steal the safety , honor and property of the people.

Thats why it all comes down on the individual and that they are going to do with what they have. Fruit is a blessing , but when it rots , its a poison. Thats just the nature of our world, bro,

[Dawood]

Originally posted by John Birch+Dec 7 2005, 07:51 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Birch - Dec 7 2005, 07:51 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 7 2005, 12:26 AM

...nor would Islam be the fastest growing religion on earth.

Quoted post

 

 

islam is only growing because muslim fundamenatlists are using genocide, murder, rape and other shit such as maiming and terrorism to force people to convert, which is how islam was spread in the first place. Although there are some poeple, such as yourself, who converted out of the goodness of their own heart, most people are forced... think india, Burma (mynanmar), malaysia and especially Darfur/sudan and Somalia.

 

Do you know how Aceh became islamic? The king thought that alliances with islamic kingdoms would be better for trade and thus converted and forced all his people to also. Hundreds of years later now people in that country/region murder and fight to spread that religion even though their ancestors were murdered and tortured into converting...

Quoted post

[/b]

 

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in false gods and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

John, it seems like you have a full subscription to "slander and lies about Islam publications" You have to remember that just because someone claims Islam for themselves does not mean that they are acting according to what it says....I mean, Saddam Hussein claimed to be a devout muslim, we all know what he was about. You need to start looking at things objectively and stop tuning in to every dog howling at the moon.

 

(They like to) listen to falsehood, to devour anything forbidden. So if they come to you (O Muhammad SAW), either judge between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least. And if you judge, judge with justice between them. Verily, Allâh loves those who act justly. (Al-Ma'idah 5:42)

[John Birch]

Originally posted by Dawood+Dec 7 2005, 02:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Dec 7 2005, 02:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by John Birch@Dec 7 2005, 07:51 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 7 2005, 12:26 AM

...nor would Islam be the fastest growing religion on earth.

Quoted post

 

 

islam is only growing because muslim fundamenatlists are using genocide, murder, rape and other shit such as maiming and terrorism to force people to convert, which is how islam was spread in the first place. Although there are some poeple, such as yourself, who converted out of the goodness of their own heart, most people are forced... think india, Burma (mynanmar), malaysia and especially Darfur/sudan and Somalia.

 

Do you know how Aceh became islamic? The king thought that alliances with islamic kingdoms would be better for trade and thus converted and forced all his people to also. Hundreds of years later now people in that country/region murder and fight to spread that religion even though their ancestors were murdered and tortured into converting...

Quoted post

 

 

 

John, it seems like you have a full subscription to "slander and lies about Islam publications" You have to remember that just because someone claims Islam for themselves does not mean that they are acting according to what it says....I mean, Saddam Hussein claimed to be a devout muslim, we all know what he was about. You need to start looking at things objectively and stop tuning in to every dog howling at the moon.

 

 

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

 

pot calling the kettle black eh? But once again you totally dodge a question by insulting the questioner. Whatever. BTW I read alot of history, and am probably the most objective person you'll ever meet, so whatever. Just answer the question.

 

heres'a another question though. Did you ever consider working for the Bush administration? You would be a better press secretary than Scott McClellan...

[Dawood]

you never asked me a question, except when you asked me if I knew how Aceh became islamic, then you answered it yourself.

[John Birch]

Originally posted by dowmagik@Dec 6 2005, 07:18 PM

if it said in the quran that on monday, you should wear only orange, would you? be honest.

Quoted post

 

 

 

heres the question you dodged, I just broadened it...... but dawood, you would make a good lawyer, lol

[John Birch]

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 8 2005, 01:12 AM

you never asked me a question, except when you asked me if I knew how Aceh became islamic, then you answered it yourself.

Quoted post

 

 

 

but you never answered it yourself either, a yes or no would have sufficed...

[Dawood]

Originally posted by John Birch+Dec 8 2005, 01:30 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Birch - Dec 8 2005, 01:30 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-dowmagik@Dec 6 2005, 07:18 PM

if it said in the quran that on monday, you should wear only orange, would you? be honest.

Quoted post

 

 

 

heres the question you dodged, I just broadened it...... but dawood, you would make a good lawyer, lol

Quoted post

[/b]

 

here was my answer

(and you did'nt ask me that , dowmagik did, also, I didn't insult the person who asked me this question. I don't make a habit of insulting people, only you occaisionally because you so craaaazy!)

 

anyway, here was my answer, if this is'nt good enough to understand where I coming from , then you didn't ask a question to get an answer , you asked to get a response to make comments on.

 

"If the quran was filled with unpractical little ordinances that had nothing to do with purification and right guidance I would not have become muslim in the first place, nor would Islam be the fastest growing religion on earth."

[Wire]

The only reason human beings exist is because the earth didn't know how to make plastic.

[imported_dowmagik]

dawood, you didnt answer my question. so, would you?

[Dawood]

i did answer it.

[imported_dowmagik]

you danced around it.

[Dawood]

well, thats the best you'll get from me on a hypothetical question. You give me a scenario that doesnt exist and expect me to give you a concrete answer? Especially when it comes to something as touchy as religion and interpreting the words of God. You won't find me to be among those who just talk about things with no proof.....so , I'm still dancing

[Krakatau]

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 8 2005, 06:08 PM

well, thats the best you'll get from me on a hypothetical question. You give me a scenario that doesnt exist and expect me to give you a concrete answer? Especially when it comes to something as touchy as religion and interpreting the words of God. You won't find me to be among those who just talk about things with no proof.....so , I'm still dancing

Quoted post

This whole statement is analagous to religion in general as far as I am concerned. Hypothetical questions with the expectation of concrete answers is central to religion. God is usually the concrete answer to the curiousity of things like coincidence, or the final, definitive answer on things as abstract or hypothetical as morality. You can keep dancing while you do it, but talking about things without proof is all you have done in this thread. Doesn't proff still negate the whole faith thing? Does faith even matter in Islam, with all those 'proofs' on that beconvinced website you linked? Is the...demeanor on that site representative of Islam in general. Not trying to be disrespectful, just honestly ignorant, high and rambling.

[Dawood]

yeah, I was thinking just shut up and pass the cheetos halfway through reading this> >>>

"God is usually the concrete answer to the curiousity of things like coincidence, or the final, definitive answer on things as abstract or hypothetical as morality"

 

and then you told me you were high, rambling, it made me laugh.

 

anyway, no that beconvinced site is basically facts etc.

the only reason I linked it is because we were discussing science as it relates to religion/islam.

 

Faith is a HUGE part of Islam, without faith there is no Islam in a person, I mean , they can't be a muslim without faith.

As far as the proofs, The Quran is the proof, as well as the statements of the prophet Muhammad. These are the proofs that the muslim looks to in order to keep straight. As for the non muslim, then there are Intellectual proofs that point to the greatness of the creator and his right to be worshipped. Some people are guided and some people remain misguided. thats the business!! And I don't see how proof would negate faith, except if Allah had came down and showed himself. (Then there would be not test for mankind , to see who would be grateful to Allah) But his messengers brought proof after proof, It's jus that most people turn away and tune in to the"shake that booty" type of hype rather than listen to the truth. Or even investigate it. I mean, you owe it to yourself to at least investigate it with an open heart.

[Krakatau]

Hey, just because it is in ultrasyllable run on sentence form doesn't mean the original idea isn't valid. You know, I think that 90% of the problems and disagreements that religion has spawned are simply the result of communication errors. Almost all of the discussion I have engaged in and read along with in this thread seems to be on some semantics jousting shit. Illustration:

I jumped to dictionary.com to post the definition of 'faith' as I am using it: belief in the absence of empirical evidence. But I also noticed another definition in the list to be more along the lines of 'like that shit Christians have', which I feel is a rather abstract definition, but I am sure dictionaries are hard to put together. Anyway, I think that you are using the word in more the latter context, which I don't care for too much. Seems too interchangeable with 'belief'. Differing definitions are why I think proof obviously falsifies(sp?) faith, and why you don't.

[Dawood]

In Islam faith is broken down into categories. example:

Faith in the heart (meaning your beleif)

Faith on the tounge (meaning your speech)

Faith on the limbs (meaning your actions)

 

If one of these components is missing then there is a deficiency in your faith. As far as a more comprehensive description of faith....The scholars of Islam are VERY detailed when it comes to words and their meanings . Words are all the main tool have to describe ourselves, so we need to be clear.

 

WHAT ARE THE FUNDAMENTALS OF FAITH IN ISLAM?

 

Belief in Allaah, His Oneness and ascribing no partners to Him.

 

Belief in the Angels (Gabriel, Michael, Israfil, etc.).

 

Belief in the revealed scriptures (Torah, Psalms, Gospel) in their original form, not as they exist today.

 

Belief in Allaah’s Messengers (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc.)

 

Belief in the Day of Resurrection.

 

Belief in Pre-Ordainment. The good or bad of it.

 

 

So thats what a muslim has faith in. As far as what his faith rests upon, that is 3 things also, Love, fear and Hope.

 

1.)We love Allah for his blessings and uncountable favors he gives us, starting with the things we take for granted like air, lungs, the ability to use the bathroom etc. think for a second Kratatau if you were prevented from using the bathroom just for one day, How uncomfortable would that be? You should be thankful to Allah for that. Not to mention all of the other blessings like food and drinks that some people don't get enough of. You should love Allah for that.

 

2.) We fear Allah's punishment. The punishment for turning away from him in ungratefulness. That we think we are somehow self sufficient and free from Allah's need. We need Allah for everything We didn't create any of it, What if Allah decided he wasn't going to let the sun rise this year. Would any of us survive that? Not likely. Allah has promised a severe punishment for those who turn away from him and reject his message. You should fear that Krakatau, not that you will have to be perfect but, at least have fear of Allah, do your best and don't be arrogant by thinking you don't need Allah.

 

3.) We have hope in Allah's mercy. We're not like the christians in thinking that we are "saved". Nobody is saved. If I die as a non muslim (May Allah protect me from that) I'm finished. But this last pillar of faith is hope for Allahs mercy because in the end , It won't be our good deeds that save us from the hellfire, It will be Allah's mercy, and his mercy is more than his wrath for the beleivers.

 

I hope that describes faith as I see it, krak, (keep in mind that I am not some trained Islamic missionary on a 12 oz mission to convert the 12 oz community. I just enjoy discussing these things with people who are interested in discussing these things with me, it keeps me out of trouble when I'm on the internet , man, If I was'nt busy responding to this thread , who knows what I'd be running into, theres a lot of filth online. At the very least this will keep me occupied away from that filth and serve as a reminder to myself if not for other people)

[imported_dowmagik]

you dont speak of things without proof? are you being serious? maybe it was another dawood that started this thread.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by dowmagik@Dec 9 2005, 03:42 PM

you dont speak of things without proof? are you being serious? maybe it was another dawood that started this thread.

Quoted post

 

 

when I said proof, I was mentioning the Quran. The quran is a proof for mankind. And Allah challenges mankind in it to produce a book like it, then call their people to bear witness to it's truth You'll never be able to do it.

 

"And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) like it and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) other than Allâh, if what you say is truthful. (Al-Baqarah 2:23)

 

And never an Ayah (sign) comes to them from the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord, but that they have been turning away from it. (Al-An'am 6:4)

 

 

the proof IS the quran and if you don't think so, then you have most likely never read it. And if you are claiming that it is NOT a proof for mankind , then it is your obligation as a responsible internet debater to DISPROVE it. If you don't have the time to disprove it irrefutably, then you have the option of quietly withdrawing your claim against it being a proof, thank you....

 

did'nt someone say I'd be a good lawyer...man that sounded like some strong closing arguments, must have been from the 2145 graff charges I got back in the ninetys and sitting in 30 different courthouses all the time for a 8-10 year span. You pick up a few things i guess.

[imported_dowmagik]

nevermind...youre so fucking brain washed it isnt even funny.