discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Dawood]

Originally posted by John Birch@Nov 29 2005, 12:20 AM

yous should all read Harold Bloom's new book "Jeshua and Yahweh"

 

 

that talks alot about how the Bibles and the Quran are great literay fiction and compiled from many sources. Keep in mind all these books were collected and rewritten over a span of 2000 years...

Quoted post

 

 

wrong again John, The Quran was revealed during a period of 23 years. 13 in Makkah 10 in Madinah. The one source (not many sources) for the Quran is Allah who sent Gabriel to teach Muhammad the Quran in Arabic. Two copies of the Quran from that time still exist

today. One in Tashkent and the other in Istanbul. If you took those two hand written copies and compared them with the Qurans all over the world you would not find a single difference.

 

You keep giving me the chance to swat your innacuracies out the sky, John, keep em coming, You line em up, I'll knock em down. And , I'm not going to bother posting any links about whether the Quran was revealed during 23 years or not because anyone interested to know can google "quran 23 years" to check. Anyway, I'm still waiting on your Big Whammy that you said you were going to drop, man! You had the hit, John where is it?

 

Also, the Quran has never been altered or changed as some people try to make claim.

[Dawood]

lol, pastafarians

[Dawood]

Krak,

here's something on the Jinn

 

http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html

 

 

more reading on the jinn

http://spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD08...080002&pfriend=

[Krakatau]

Thanks man. So jinn are kind of mischievious imps that are similair to or just below man in status? I haven't been through all of the information you are linking me to, but from what I gather, they are kind of like the little devil that sits on your shoulder and guides people astray. I also read something about genies being a westernized mishandling of the jinn described in the Quran. Interesting stuff.

 

Am I wrong to take this at face value? Peeing in holes is forbidden?

 

Hadith - Ahmad, an-Nasa'i, Dawud, al-Hakim and al-Baihaqi

Qatadah related from 'Abdullah ibn Sarjas who said, "The Messenger of Allah forbade urination into a hole." Said Qatadah, "What is disliked about urinating into a hole?" Said he, "It is the residence of the jinn."

[Dawood]

Yeah, the jinn are mischievious creatures , basically, If anyone has ever had an experience, (and a lot of people do) where they feel suffocated or that someone is pressing on them really hard. You can't speak or move.This mostly happens to people at night from what I have gathered. I have spoken to many people who this has happened to. (mostly non muslims or muslims who experienced this before Islam.) Well, thats the Jinn, messing around. They hide things on you, make noises, They like dirty places, like bathrooms, Or places where there is a lot of filthy things going on. In western culture people refer to them as ghosts and think that they are people who have passed on , but In actuality, They are Jinn. A totally seperate creation.

 

And as for peeing in a hole, I don't know, man. I have learned concerning the hadiths, you have to know the context and ask the scholars about the circumstances surrounding the issue, because there may be another Hadith that says " The Prophet used to urinate in holes sometimes" and by this we can understand that there was a particualr benefit in not peeing in that specific hole, <(just an example of how this thing works) So just like anything , it needs to be in context.

[Krakatau]

Would a jinn essentially be like a demon in christianity, or do demons exist as their own... order, for lack of a better word, in Islam as well? The Salafi essay discusses the genie aspect I mentioned before, and this reminds me of similair stories in Christianity regarding making a deal with the devil- the fullfilment of the request is usually distorted in some way that usually leaves the person worse off than before.

 

Hmm.

 

The things that really interest me regarding religion are the similarities between faiths that seem to be overlooked most of the time. All of them seem to describe a common phenomenon with slightly differing accounts of the catalyst (which is never empirically verifiable).

[Dawood]

Yeah, I guess the Jinn would resemble the demons of Christianity, except that not All Jinn are evil, Theyre from all types , just like Humans. There is definately MANY similarities in religions, except one fundamental difference, That all religions worship created things like prophets or cows or statues or trees or the sun or fire etc. But Islams says to worship the Creator of everything, not to worship everything.

 

Also, we beleive that Jesus, Moses , Abraham etc , etc. Basically all of the prophets of the past were Muslims, who taught Islam to their people. If not by name , then by practice. So the remnants of what those prophets were upon still remain in the religions they left behind.

[Krakatau]

I never had any exposure to the Quran, so it was interesting to me when I found out that it shared the stories and people from the Bible.

 

I know that you keep citing Christianity's reverence of Mary as idolatry (I would agree to some extent), but that is really a facet of Catholicism rather than Christianity. Protestants don't pray to Mary or prophets, where is their idolatry?

 

So all of the other Abrahimic faiths are bastardized versions of Islam. Shouldn't other Abrahimic monotheists be favored over polytheists or atheists then? Like half stepping muslims or something? Or are they to be viewed as worse, as they take the Islamic message and wrap it in lies and half truths?

[The Hater]

There is definately MANY similarities in religions, except one fundamental difference, That all religions worship created things like prophets or cows or statues or trees or the sun or fire etc. But Islams says to worship the Creator of everything, not to worship everything.

 

According to Hinduism, God/ The creator, is everything. In Bhuddism, a mirror is used to allow one to see the divinity inside themselves.

 

Do Muslims believe in a divine spark within the corporeal body?

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Krakatau@Nov 30 2005, 05:43 AM

I never had any exposure to the Quran, so it was interesting to me when I found out that it shared the stories and people from the Bible.

 

I know that you keep citing Christianity's reverence of Mary as idolatry (I would agree to some extent), but that is really a facet of Catholicism rather than Christianity. Protestants don't pray to Mary or prophets, where is their idolatry?

 

So all of the other Abrahimic faiths are bastardized versions of Islam. Shouldn't other Abrahimic monotheists be favored over polytheists or atheists then? Like half stepping muslims or something? Or are they to be viewed as worse, as they take the Islamic message and wrap it in lies and half truths?

Quoted post

 

 

Well, for example, Christians, (not catholics) But regular christians beleive in what they call the "trinity". Which is the beleif that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all make up God and co exist equally , each being a 3rd of God. So according to this beleif , Jesus is a part of God and Allah says in the Quran about this,

 

"O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah nothing but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. do not say: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All ­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)

 

 

and as far as the "other abrahamic faiths". They are remnants of what was given to the other prophets that some people continued to follow even though all of that was abrogated with Islam and the advent of Muhammad, but All of the prophets essentially had the same message to worship God alone and do not ascribe divinity to other than him. They way we view the people of the book (Jews and Christians is different than how we view Athiests or Hindus.

for example :

A muslim man can marry a Jew or christian Woman but not an Athiest or Buddhist or Hindu woman. And also, the food of the people of the book is lawful to us as long as it is slaughtered properly. We don't see them as half stepping muslims, especially the ones of today, because the christians of today made up a whole new religion that really has nothing to do with the religion of the christians of Old and definately has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by The Hater@Nov 30 2005, 06:36 PM

There is definately MANY similarities in religions, except one fundamental difference, That all religions worship created things like prophets or cows or statues or trees or the sun or fire etc. But Islams says to worship the Creator of everything, not to worship everything.

 

According to Hinduism, God/ The creator, is everything. In Bhuddism, a mirror is used to allow one to see the divinity inside themselves.

 

Do Muslims believe in a divine spark within the corporeal body?

Quoted post

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a divine spark within the corporeal body but, I'm going to take a stab at it.

 

As far as divinity, In Islam, The creator owns it all, he is the most high, The Omnipotent all seeing ,all hearing creator whom we are in need of for everything. He is the controller , sustainer , maker and creator of the universe, (No I'm not talking about the RZA from Wu-Tang) I'm talking about God , whose name is Allah as it was revealed in the Quran in the Arabic language.

 

As far as us, Humans, the creatures, Our status raises in accordance with how close to our Lord we become. We are organic beings who will eventually die, Our souls will remain alive, But are we divine? just try to make the sun rise from the west.

[Milton]

I think what dude meant was that some religions believe that the soul of a human contains an element of the creator. For instance in many native american religions, the creator is a part of everything, trees, rocks, televisions (maybe?) human, etc.

[Cracked Ass]

Originally posted by Dawood@Nov 21 2005, 09:52 PM

Also, science is not as strong of an authority as you think it is. Using your own words...

 

"Humans are fallible.

They might be lying or hallucinating when they write their books."

 

I don't know any scientists that aren't human. So to suggest that science is the absolute authority on everything then you would need to prove that scientists don't make mistakes either.

 

Quoted post

 

 

I have not suggested science is the absolute authority on everything. I am suggesting that there is no such authority whatsoever: not science, not Allah, not Yahweh, not God by any name.

Science is the only way to find out about objective reality. It is not a religion. The only things it teaches are things you can recheck and confirm for yourself. Science seeks and welcomes the truth at all times. If individual scientists err (and they do, all the time), the rest of the scientific community is there to check them. Science is very careful about declaring anything to be an accurate finding about objective reality. They begin with a hypothesis: "I bet this thing works like this." They test the hypothesis; if it holds up to a lot of tests and scrutiny, they upgrade it to a theory: "There's a lot of evidence that this thing works like this." Then they grill the theory with more and more observations and tests; if it doesn't have any holes whatsoever over a long period of time, they'll upgrade it to a law. They don't call their findings laws lightly.

The superiority of science as a means for expanding our knowledge of objective reality lies in its humility. What scientists don't know dwarfs what they know, and they freely admit this. They are not interested in "absolute" certainty or authority. They just want to know how stuff really works, and they refuse to draw conclusions about things they can't observe or study.

By the scientific method, to posit the existence of Allah is a hypothesis. Since Allah cannot be observed or detected, and has only been spoken about by a number of fallible humans, Islam cannot be upgraded even to a theory. Nor can any other similar religion. To the contrary, there is a mountain of evidence that humans disturbed by the vast unknown will turn to structured religion in order to feel better about being alive. That idea is well beyond the hypothesis stage.

[Cracked Ass]

I'm always down for this kind of debate, but I'm not on the net much, so pardon the slow responses.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Milton@Dec 1 2005, 07:25 AM

I think what dude meant was that some religions believe that the soul of a human contains an element of the creator. For instance in many native american religions, the creator is a part of everything, trees, rocks, televisions (maybe?) human, etc.

Quoted post

 

Yeah, I see where he was coming from, Well just to answer the question straightforward. In Islam the creator is a totally seperate entity in all aspects from his creation. The creator possesses all of the attributes of perfection , and no one or nothing else has these attributes except the creator, like for example, being "the creator". Nothing else created everything, so naturally , nothing else can claim to be a creator. The provider, the owner, the ever living, etc. Because in Islam Idolatry or (idol worship) is defined as worshipping other than the true God or (object of worship) <that, of course, being the creator. So we don't worship anything but the one who created everything and who provides everything etc. Because this would be an injustice to worship a tree or a man or a stone or a prophet or a television or money or whatever, simply because these things have no power to help you if you prayed to them or asked them for forgiveness so why would a person worship something that is not worthy of his worship and who has no actual part of divinity. Now, this could go into a debate about whether man has divine abilities or not, I would say, >>show me your divinity...make the sun rise from the west.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Cracked Ass+Dec 1 2005, 10:11 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cracked Ass - Dec 1 2005, 10:11 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Nov 21 2005, 09:52 PM

Also, science is not as strong of an authority as you think it is. Using your own words...

 

"Humans are fallible.

They might be lying or hallucinating when they write their books."

 

I don't know any scientists that aren't human. So to suggest that science is the absolute authority on everything then you would need to prove that scientists don't make mistakes either.

 

Quoted post

 

 

I have not suggested science is the absolute authority on everything. I am suggesting that there is no such authority whatsoever: not science, not Allah, not Yahweh, not God by any name.

Science is the only way to find out about objective reality. It is not a religion. The only things it teaches are things you can recheck and confirm for yourself. Science seeks and welcomes the truth at all times. If individual scientists err (and they do, all the time), the rest of the scientific community is there to check them. Science is very careful about declaring anything to be an accurate finding about objective reality. They begin with a hypothesis: "I bet this thing works like this." They test the hypothesis; if it holds up to a lot of tests and scrutiny, they upgrade it to a theory: "There's a lot of evidence that this thing works like this." Then they grill the theory with more and more observations and tests; if it doesn't have any holes whatsoever over a long period of time, they'll upgrade it to a law. They don't call their findings laws lightly.

The superiority of science as a means for expanding our knowledge of objective reality lies in its humility. What scientists don't know dwarfs what they know, and they freely admit this. They are not interested in "absolute" certainty or authority. They just want to know how stuff really works, and they refuse to draw conclusions about things they can't observe or study.

By the scientific method, to posit the existence of Allah is a hypothesis. Since Allah cannot be observed or detected, and has only been spoken about by a number of fallible humans, Islam cannot be upgraded even to a theory. Nor can any other similar religion. To the contrary, there is a mountain of evidence that humans disturbed by the vast unknown will turn to structured religion in order to feel better about being alive. That idea is well beyond the hypothesis stage.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

We understand quite clearly that, since these words you are reading were written, then there was a writer, even though you do not see him. And for every speech there was a speaker, and every delicious dish has a cook behind it. So for every creation, including our very existence, there is for sure a creator.

And you say that Allah cannot be observed or detected and has only been spoken about by fallible humans, But I'll say to that, that his effects are upon everything, his signs are the universe and everything that exist within it and more..., His commandments are being fulfilled minute by minute second by second.

So if you say that Allah is only a hypothesis, then, what about Air? do you see it can it be detected? If it can, then excuse me for my ignorance, but what about Air? you can't see it, though it's affects are known. It seems to me that people choose not to beleive in God based upon their desire to disobey him and to attempt to free themselves of a conscience becuase there is no consequence to their actions (in their minds) But Allah is always watching over you and he is swift in taking account those who do mischief and tell lies.

 

This is my opinion,I am just presenting what I beleive as it is. I apolagise in advance for anyone who feels like I am pushing my religious beleifs on them. I am not trying to convert the world,I realize when I speak about my beleifs I do so in a matter of fact manner. I do this for a reason , mainly because of the certainty I have in my heart concerning the truth of Islam, but again, I am not trying to force Islam on anyone here. I just enjoy discussing these matters and clarifying true Islam to people who might not otherwise get a proper account or perspective on true Islam in light of the popular medias crusade against the image of Islam and deviant groups within the muslims who do not portray the proper Image of Islam.

 

I also wanted to talk about what you said about absolute certainty and authority, I will say this, there will be no ABSOLUTE certainty for you and me until we reach death, then it will be clear to us concerning everything that we differ in. Also, as a muslim, there is no way for a human being to have absolute certainty or knowledge about many things due to our own shortsightedness and inability to know the unseen, I will say however there is a level of certainty a person MUST have to beleive in something. That being said, I beleive that there is a creator with ALL Ecompassing knowledge of everything, will we ever reach this level of awareness? Never........................................................................ just like the scientists say "what we don't know is more than we know"

and in conclusion I will say that Allah knows best.

[loopdeloop]

there is no anything no God no whatever whe are just here because we just happend to be in the right place at the right time in the universe.there is no miracle or anything just coincidence. well thats my point of view anyway..

[The Hater]

Dawood, can I get your email? I'd Like to dialogue with you about islam privately.

[ERIZENO]

This shit is still going ?? WTF

 

Cracked ass .... I dig what you had to add.

--fear of the unknown is one of the hardest parts of human existence.

 

It frustrates me to no end that people cant let go of the bed time stories of centuries ago ... and now cling to them like they are the law, question the people and they have to question themselves and then the defenses come on strong.

It just makes me sad !!!!

[jbrshmonster]

Originally posted by ERIZENO@Dec 2 2005, 01:46 PM

This shit is still going ?? WTF

Quoted post

 

 

[Dawood]

Originally posted by ERIZENO@Dec 2 2005, 06:46 PM

This shit is still going ?? WTF

 

Cracked ass .... I dig what you had to add.

--fear of the unknown is one of the hardest parts of human existence.

 

It frustrates me to no end that people cant let go of the bed time stories of centuries ago ... and now cling to them like they are the law, question the people and they have to question themselves and then the defenses come on strong.

It just makes me sad !!!!

Quoted post

 

If you could see when they will be held over the (Hell) Fire! They will say: "If only you would send us back (to the world)! Then we would not deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of our Lord, and we would be of the believers!" (Al-An'am 6:27)

 

So they deny with ungratefulness Allâh's Favours which We have bestowed on them! Then enjoy yourselves during your short stay (in this world), but you will come to know (with regrets). (An-Nahl 16:55)

[YourSistersAssCookie]

which came first the chicken or the egg

[Guest KING BLING]

Originally posted by YourSistersAssCookie@Dec 2 2005, 07:07 PM

I am not a very religious person.

Im not against  it

I have read about various religions and beliefs.

I have a question for you guys in general and I apoligize if it was asked in previous pages that I didnt read.

but do you guys believe in evolution and that humans evolved from whatever theory you might believe (if you believe it)?

I guess you could have possibly believe in religion and evolution.

I dont know i wanted to hear opinions on this.

Quoted post

 

 

ROFLOLMAOMGODRELATEDCONVERSATION, on page 11 of a thread pertaining to God and creation we had not covered the idea of evolution and alternate versions of creation...it is so good that you wanted to hear opinions on this subject...especailly because you have read on the subject extensively and offered so much insight...

 

 

YOU ARE BANNED LIKE A ROACH FROM THE TESTICLE THAT IS THE INTERNET...

[YourSistersAssCookie]

Geek

[John Birch]

lol... what is this becoming a new boston thread?

 

 

to sum up this thread, dawood keeps trying to make Aristotle, the greek philospher's "telleological argument for the existence of God."

 

although he a muslim, I don't think he realizes that jewish philoshpy and hence islamic philosphy was heavily influenced by greek philosophy, especially in terms of ideas of monotheism etc etc...

 

 

Although aristotle made some good arguements, I think later philosophers refined and then refuted alot of his thinking on this subject.

[mental invalid]

i think 90% of the time people start threads just to hear themselves speak or feel themselves type

[Krakatau]

The chicken or the egg?

I would assume the egg predates the chicken by several million years, probably making its first appearances long before we even crawled out of the ocean.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Krakatau@Dec 3 2005, 11:33 PM

The chicken or the egg?

I would assume the egg predates the chicken by several million years, probably making its first appearances long before we even crawled out of the ocean.

Quoted post

 

 

 

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Al-Anbiya 21:30)

 

 

OH, and thanks for summing it all up John, I can always count on you , thanks. BTW. Islam was not started with Muhammad, he is just the last of the prophets. Islam was the way of all of them. Moses was not a Jew (although he came to the children of Israel) His religion was Islam , not Judaism. Also, aristotle did not invent this way of thinking, this "telleological argument for the existence of God." He only learned something and passed it along. The messengers of Allah have been telling people about this since the beginning of time.

[The Hater]

Dawood, I'm doing a paper on why Islamic fundamentalism is dangerous to the modern world. In your opinion, would you agree al so?

[Dawood]

Ha, ha, No,in my opinion the fundamentals of Islam are the worlds only solution, Although Islamic EXTREMISM or extremism of anything is definately dangerous to the world in any time not just in modern times.

 

check out this website http://thewahhabimyth.com/

 

it will give you a lot of helpful info for your paper.