discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[imported_dowmagik]

heres to being "deaf and dumb in darkness" *raises glass*

[The Hater]

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion. [/i]

 

IF THIS IS SO, THEN WHY CAN'T MUSLIMS STOP BLOWING UP BUDDDHIST/HINDU STATUES?

[Dawood]

Originally posted by The Hater@Nov 7 2005, 06:42 PM

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion. [/i]

 

IF THIS IS SO, THEN WHY CAN'T MUSLIMS STOP BLOWING UP BUDDDHIST/HINDU STATUES?

Quoted post

 

Well, The only buddhist statue I know of being blown up that I can refer to is in afghanistan. Other than that, I don't have any reference to speak of.

 

Now here's the thing, Afghanistan is not a democracy like America or society that practices "freedom of religion" like what you see in western societies. They do things differently there.

A muslim is required to remove evil according to his ability and authority. That being said, As a muslim, I would not allow a buddhist statue in my house, because I am in authority over what comes in to my house and what doesn't. And a buddist statue is considered a false object of worship in Islam.....Agree or disagree, the Afghan Govt. at that time had the authority (being the rulers of that land) To dispose of something they saw as being harmful to the Islamic identity of that land.

 

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion"

 

basically means"

 

For me are my deeds and for you are your deeds! You are not responsible for what I do, and I am not responsible for what you do!'')

 

Islam also says "there is no compulsion in religion"

which means that nobody can be forced to beleive. If someone wants to follow Buddhism or hinduism, and worship a statue or a cow, then that is their business, but it's not fair to say that a person who is responsible for a house or even a country is not permitted to manage his country or his house how he sees fit . (of course , as long as he is'nt oppressing people.)

[Dawood]

Originally posted by dowmagik@Nov 7 2005, 04:36 PM

heres to being "deaf and dumb in darkness" *raises glass*

Quoted post

 

Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped. (Al-Baqarah 2:86)

 

If only those who disbelieved knew the time when they will not be able to ward off the Fire from their faces, nor from their backs; and they will not be helped. (Al-Anbiya 21:39)

 

and you indulged in play and pastime (and in telling lies against Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad SAW) Such are they whose deeds are in vain in this world and in the Hereafter. Such are they who are the losers. (At-Tawbah 9:69)

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

dude dawood, you're fuckin weird. After seeing all these quotations its the first time on 12oz i really feel like asking: Do you even write? or you have a higher purpous on 12oz.

[Dawood]

LOL, yeah, I write. I've been writing since 1985. Sorry, I sound like a weirdo, man. I'm not really that weird in person, I think, well, I can't copy and paste awkward sounding translations in person, put it that way. I try to keep all my religious posts confined to this thread. (unlike when I first started posting here) I turned all of crossfire into a religious debate, Ha, Ha. Anyway, naw, man, I'm not weird, You guys are the ones who weirded out on me, I stayed on the straight path and the world got so weird around me that I look weird now. It's a strange thing.

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

dont mind me

[Dawood]

It's aight ,man, You're ok in my book.

 

 

anyone know what happened to Salafi Zahrah?

[imported_dowmagik]

while i find all religious people a little kooky, i do give you props for actually being educated in regards to your religion. however, no passages from a book written by man will ever scare me into believing that which is illogical and obsurd (in my view). belief is a very personal thing, but reality is universal.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by dowmagik@Nov 8 2005, 05:33 AM

while i find all religious people a little kooky, i do give you props for actually being educated in regards to your religion. however, no passages from a book written by man will ever scare me into believing that which is illogical and obsurd (in my view). belief is a very personal thing, but reality is universal.

Quoted post

 

Just for the sake of dialogue, what do you find absurd about Islam?

(not what you find obsurd about crazies in the news claiming Islam)

But the actual beleifs of Islam itself.

Also, fyi, Muslims don't beleive that Muhammad wrote the quran, we beleive that it was revealed to him. He was illiterate and that was well known about him even before he received revelation. I am willing to discuss this on the basis of reality.

[The Hater]

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one nation or community following one religion only (i.e. Islâm), but they will not cease to disagree,- (Hud 11:118) </span>

 

 

Could you expound on this and explain to me where it is quoted from?

[Dawood]

Allah, the Exalted, informs that He is able to make all of mankind one nation upon belief, or disbelief. This is just as He said,

And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one nation or community following one religion only (i.e. Islâm), but they will not cease to disagree,- (Hud 11:118)

 

Allah goes on to say,

 

(but they will not cease to disagree. Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His mercy,) This means that people will always differ in religions, creeds, beliefs, opinions and sects. Concerning Allah's statement,

 

(Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His mercy,) This means that those who have received the mercy of Allah by following the Messengers are excluded from this. They are those who adhere to what they are commanded in the religion by the Messengers of Allah. That has always been their characteristic until the coming of the finality of the Prophets and Messengers (Muhammad ). Those who received Allah's mercy are those who followed him, believed in him and supported him. Therefore, they succeeded by achieving happiness in this life and the Hereafter.

 

That particular verse came from the Quran , but I got the explanation of it above from http://www.tafsir.com which is a website

of Quran explanation , verse by verse. The explanation is by a scholar of Islam Ibn Kathir who took his sources directly from the Quran itself , then from the sayings of the prophet Muhammad and then from his companions.

[John Birch]

can you explain this?

 

 

 

Have you thought of al-Lat and al-'Uzza and Manat the third, the other

 

These are the exalted Gharaniq, whose intercession is hoped for.

 

(Sura 53, 19-22)

[Dawood]

John, It is actually translated,

 

19.Have you then considered Al-Lât, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs)

 

20.And Manât (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?

 

 

21.Is it for you the males and for Him the females?

 

22.That indeed is a division most unfair!

 

 

The explanation of those verses that I got from tafsir.com

are as follows.

 

 

Refuting Idolatry, Al-Lat and Al-`Uzza

 

 

Allah the Exalted rebukes the idolators for worshipping idols and taking rivals to Him. They built houses for their idols to resemble the Ka`bah built by Prophet Ibrahim, Allah's Khalil ( friend).

 

 

 

(Have you then considered Al-Lat,) Al-Lat was a white stone with inscriptions on. There was a house built around Al-Lat in At-Ta'if with curtains, servants and a sacred courtyard around it. The people of At-Ta'if, the tribe of Thaqif and their allies, worshipped Al-Lat. (they were not muslims, they were pagans) They would boast to Arabs, except the Quraysh, that they had Al-Lat. Ibn Jarir said, "They derived Al-Lat's name from Allah's Name, and made it feminine. Allah is far removed from what they ascribe to Him. It was reported that Al-Lat is pronounced Al-Lat because, according to `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq (a kind of barley mash) with water for the pilgrims during the time of Jahiliyyah (pre islamic ignorance). When he died, they remained next to his grave and worshipped him.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said about Allah's statement,

 

 

 

(Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.) "Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq for the pilgrims.'' Ibn Jarir said, "They also derived the name for their idol Al-`Uzza from Allah's Name Al-`Aziz. Al-`Uzza was a tree on which the idolators placed a monument and curtains, in the area of Nakhlah, between Makkah and At-Ta'if. The Quraysh revered Al-`Uzza.'' During the battle of Uhud, Abu Sufyan said, "We have Al-`Uzza, but you do not have Al-`Uzza.'' Allah's Messenger replied,

 

 

 

(Say, "Allah is Our Supporter, but you have no support.'') Manat was another idol in the area of Mushallal near Qudayd, between Makkah and Al-Madinah. The tribes of Khuza`ah, Aws and Khazraj used to revere Manat during the time of Jahiliyyah (pre islamic ignorance). They used to announce Hajj to the Ka`bah from next to Manat. Al-Bukhari collected a statement from `A'ishah with this meaning. There were other idols in the Arabian Peninsula that the Arabs revered just as they revered the Ka`bah, besides the three idols that Allah mentioned in His Glorious Book. Allah mentioned these three here because they were more famous than the others. An-Nasa'i recorded that Abu At-Tufayl said, "When the Messenger of Allah conquered Makkah, he sent Khalid bin Al-Walid to the area of Nakhlah where the idol of Al-`Uzza was erected on three trees of a forest. Khalid cut the three trees and approached the house built around it and destroyed it.

 

 

Where do get your information from John? It looks like you hang around in the websites of people who make things up, change and distort the meanings of the Quran and lie to propogate their ideas. Theres is a christian missionary college here who's students (men and women) dress up as muslims and learn arabic so that they can try to convert muslims overseas. They try to come hang around the local mosques to learn customs and cultures of muslims so they can act and dress like muslims while they are there covertly preaching the gospel. To me , that is deceptive and straight up dirty. Anyway, those are the same people who publish mis-translated deviant copies of the quran to deceive people. (like the quotes you used.)

[MrJackDaniels]

Originally posted by John Birch@Oct 31 2005, 12:47 AM

After the death of his wife, Muhammad married at least 11 other women (some sources place the total as high as 16). He also took several concubines. He married one girl who was only six years old and had sexual relations with her when she was 9.2 According to the Koran, only the prophet could have unlimited wives. All other Muslim men are limited to four (Sura 4:3).

 

Quoted post

so a big proportion of the world (ie the muslims) listen to some dude who was fucking a 9 year old? fucking hell, the world is going to shit.

 

i think the main point which bugs me is when people start talking about how muslims "should kill the infidels" - or basically that the non-believers are "allowed" to be killed by muslims.

 

i mean, cmon what the fuck is this about. this just isnt on. its petty, for example say me and you (dawood) are painting a wall. i "believe" that we should use certain colours for our fills while you dont....

hardly cause to murder me is it?

 

stop being so intolerant of other races and faiths..

[Dawood]

Ha, Ha, No , man. You can paint your peices in whatever color you like ,man. I never said in any of my posts in all of

.....what? 9 pages that is is ok to kill "infidels" as you call them. So, only take me to account for what I say, not what other people or the news media or newspapers tell you. Do you really think millions of people around the world would follow a religion that taught that all non muslims should be killed? I live and work all around Non-muslims all day. I have non-muslim family members and none of them have ever been killed by me.

Ask them, Jack , they'll tell you themselves , they aren't dead. Also , I don't believe that my religion encourages me to kill them. There is a verse in the quran that says

 

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. (Al-Baqarah 2:191)

(And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you,)

 

 

one of the companions of the prophet Muhammad Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later abrogated by the Ayah:

 

(then kill them wherever you find them) (9:5).

 

However, this statement is not plausible, because Allah's statement:

 

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you', just as Allah said (in another Ayah):

 

(...and fight against the Mushrikin collectively as they fight against you collectively.) (9:36)

 

 

This is why Allah said later in the Ayah:

 

(And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.) meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.'

 

This verse has to be taken in context and can't be taken out of context by killing non-combatants. The problem with people like Osama Bin laden and Al Qaida is that they view ALL americans as being "combatants" because of the war the american govt. is engaged in against Islam and it's people mainly because Americans fund it with thier tax dollars and also because Americans choose their leaders and Al Qaida sees that as an approval of killing innocent muslims so they feel as if that justifies them to kill innocent non muslims.Do you see their logic now? I don't agree with their actions or their methodology, but I do see their logic. Now, even though the american govt. is killing and destroying and fighting against Islam and its people. And if you don't think the American govt. is engaged in a war against Islam , then you are not paying attention.

(according to Islam) It is still not allowable to kill non combatants (like the people in the world trade towers or the people in Jordan or the people in the London Bombings etc.) Even after all of the unjust killing perpertrated in the muslim lands. I hope you understand now Jack , that Islam is not a religion of destruction and killing, It's just that the muslim world is under seige by your Government right now and is fighting back. (not always using the proper tactics, but then again , neither are the Americans)

 

As for the issue of the prophet Muhammad being married to a 9 year old. I will deal with that in a later post.

[Dawood]

Here is an article about the young Age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) at the time of their marriage.

There is more information in this article than I would have time to write , not to mention I don't possess enough clear knowledge about the history of the narrations etc. to write something on my own about this, so I found this article that shows clearly that during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) marriages at a young age were not uncommon. And the determining factor to know that someone was ready to be married was puberty. This was a practice that was widely accepted during biblical and quranic times. please read the article if you intend to comment on it

 

 

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/young_m...e_of_aishah.htm

[Dawood]

 

by the way, My daughters name is Aisha. i did this peice in her room for her. To muslims , the wife of Muhammad, Aisha is a prominent figure in Islam , a scholar, a preserver of the religion. She is the example of piety in a muslim woman. We call her "umm al mumineen" which means "mother of the beleivers" She in no way was a victim of any wrongdoing as some people accuse.

[MrJackDaniels]

sorry if it came across wrongly dawood, but i never meant for you to think that i was accusing you of killing the infidels...

 

its just that, lets face it, thats how your religion has been portrayed for the last few years.

 

and also, its not the americans im worried about. when al quaida bring it to my home city and bomb our tube network then i get scared. when i think about it, our govt / media / society has been a hell of a lot more respectfull / integrated with the muslim community in the uk, than the feelings in america.

 

dont know where im going with this so ill leave it here.

[MrJackDaniels]

nice piece though, which is all i come to this site to see really...!

[John Birch]

These are the exalted Gharaniq, whose intercession is hoped for.

 

 

 

dawood, these are the original verses of 53.21, 22. My translation wasn't wrong. I know the current version has the translation you showed. It was a trick question to test your knowledge. Do some further research and get back to me...

 

 

 

jb society

[Dawood]

John, You are a funny guy. The quran is in Arabic originally, not in english , so there is no original except the arabic.

Do you speak arabic? If you don't speak arabic then lets end this discussion because it will go nowhere.

 

by the way, where did you get those quran translations from

was it...

http://www.benjaminsteinbergs_qurantranslation.com ??

 

Stop making things up John, are you really that bored ?

[Dawood]

Originally posted by MrJackDaniels@Nov 15 2005, 02:16 AM

sorry if it came across wrongly dawood, but i never meant for you to think that i was accusing you of killing the infidels...

 

its just that, lets face it, thats how your religion has been portrayed for the last few years.

 

and also, its not the americans im worried about. when al quaida bring it to my home city and bomb our tube network then i get scared. when i think about it, our govt / media / society has been a hell of a lot more respectfull / integrated with the muslim community in the uk, than the feelings in america.

 

dont know where im going with this so ill leave it here.

Quoted post

 

Yeah , you are right, Islam has caught a real bad rap these days. Thats one of the reasons I feel it's necessary for me to make things clear to people. I'm not necessarily here trying to convert people. I originally started coming here to look at the graff. I'm an old head from the 80's. I've been writing for almost 20 years now. I just stumbled on crossfire and I figured I'd spend some of my time on 12 oz. in discussion, I didn't take offense to your post . Most people on here talk trash to me about my religion. (only because i'm so vocal about it , i think) But most of the people who deal with me here know I always try to be respectful.

I agree , in the UK , people are more open minded in general than in America. I was heated when those idiots bombed the tube, man. I couldn't beleive it, I was like what?? In london? Seriously, I don't know how any of these maniac bombers think they are going to acheive any good.

[John Birch]

Originally posted by Dawood@Nov 15 2005, 03:57 AM

John, You are a funny guy. The quran is in Arabic originally, not in english , so there is no original except the arabic.

Do you speak arabic? If you don't speak arabic then lets end this discussion because it will go nowhere.

 

by the way, where did you get those quran translations from

was it...

http://www.benjaminsteinbergs_qurantranslation.com ??

 

Stop making things up John, are you really that bored ?

Quoted post

are you really that clueless or think I'm that stupid? those are real quotes, of course translated from arabic, although the word gharaniq is arabic...

 

In Arabic if you prefer:

 

 

تلك الغرانيق العلى وإن Ø´Ù?اعتهن لترتجى

 

 

your version you quoted:

 

#

 

Ø£ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙƒÙ?Ù…Ù? الذَّكَرÙ? ÙˆÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‡Ù? الْأÙ?نثَى

#

 

تÙ?لْكَ Ø¥Ù?ذًا Ù‚Ù?سْمَةٌ ضÙ?يزَى

 

 

 

 

My sources were at-Tabari and Ibn Sa’d, renown and well respected biographers of mohhammed...

 

 

do some research now and get back to me...

[Dawood]

You are grasping for straws , John There is no verse in Quran where Allah refers to the Idols as being gharaniq.

 

This is a forgery from the enemies of Islam. If you look in any quran (in arabic) from Iceland to Australia and back to alaska then on to africa etc etc. You will not see this in the Quran.

 

What you were referring to is some fabricated hadeeth (sayings of the prophet) One of our great scholars said about

this issue:

It is self-evident after this that I say:

 

The Sunnah which has an important bearing on Islamic Law is only the Sunnah confirmed by scientific channels, and authentic chains of narrations known to the learned in regard to hadeeths and the background of the narrators.

 

It is not the one which is found in different works of Tafseers (commentaries of The Qur'an) and Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), and in different writings of longing, intimidation, advices, and admonitions, etc...

 

They contain weak, spurious, and fabricated hadeeths, of which Islam absolves, like the story of 'Harut and Marut,' and the story of 'gharanik.' I have a special letter which makes it void and it is printed(6). A major part of it is recorded in two huge books namely "A chain of weak and fabricated hadeeths and their evil impact on the community." Their number up to date have reached approximately four thousand hadeeths(7).

 

keep trying John

[John Birch]

I never said that verse was in the current version of the quran. C'mon I'm giving you too many hints...

 

And I notice that you have a difficult time having a discussion without stooping down to insults when someone knows more about your religion than you do....

 

I'll give you a few more chances, then I'll tell you if you don't get it...

[Dawood]

where exactly did I insult you? When I said "keep trying" or the comment about grasping for straws? Wow, look a few pages back at the insults you heped on me and my beleifs. Now, is'nt that the pot calling the kettle black?

 

anyway, what you are attempting to propagate is an age old

baseless pile of lies that has been refuted by the scholars of Islam generation after generation.

 

It's funny that you will sit here and propagate those fake verses you posted that not only oppose everything Islam is , but have absolutely no authentic sources.

And when someone tells you to worship Allah alone without ascribing partners to him , to come to beleif and leave falsehood alone, you fight it tooth and nail, using whatever tactic you can . Even lies. This is why Allah says about the disbelievers.....

 

And the example of those who disbelieve, is as that of him who shouts to the (flock of sheep) that hears nothing but calls and cries. (They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand. (Al-Baqarah 2:171)

 

and he says:

 

I shall turn away from My Ayât (verses of the Qur'ân) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them. (Al-A'raf 7:146)

 

My advice to you is to stop your crusade against Islam and Ask Allah (or God) or whatever you want to call your higher power (at this point) for guidance. Stop behaving arrogantly and quoting fake verses that contradict the WHOLE QURAN.

Don't you know that what you are quoting contradicts the WHOLE QURAN??? ANd you have the audacity to tell me you know more about Islam than someone who lives it everyday!!

This is absolutely rediculous.

 

Do you not know that it is Allâh to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allâh you have neither any Walî (protector or guardian) nor any helper. (Al-Baqarah 2:107)

[Dawood]

and just for the record , John, so that you see for yourself. How can there be "goddesses whos intercession is hoped for in the quran" when Allah makes these statements:

 

"Shall I take besides Him âliha (gods), if the Most Beneficent (Allâh) intends me any harm, their intercession will be of no use for me whatsoever, nor can they save me? (Ya-Sin 36:23)

 

Say: "To Allâh belongs all intercession. His is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you shall be brought back." (Az-Zumar 39:44)

 

And Allah is not the author of Confusion..

 

And those whom they invoke instead of Him have no power of intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth (i.e. believed in the Oneness of Allâh, and obeyed His Orders), and they know (the facts about the Oneness of Allâh) . (Az-Zukhruf 43:86)

 

So no intercession of intercessors will be of any use to them. (Al-Muddaththir 74:48)

 

You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything). (Al-Fatihah 1:5)

 

And your Ilâh (God) is one Ilâh (God - Allâh), Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He), the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. (Al-Baqarah 2:163)

[John Birch]

you spent alot of time calling me a liar. i'm probably using the same sources as you...I'll still give you more time then I'll bust it to you...

[Dawood]

whatever , man