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Dawood

discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

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I thought it would be an interesting thread to talk about what people beleived about God. I always meet people and we discuss what God is and what God wants etc. according to their outlook. I find the concept of God truly amazing, and I am curious to know what other people think about God, whether you beleive or not, Explain why you beleive or why you don't beleive.

 

Please keep it respectful, keep in mind there are people who strongly beleive in God and negative comments will hinder the bulding process .Again, Lets talk about the nature of God , not politics ,world events or religious side issues. There are plenty of threads to talk about politics ,world events or religious side issues.

 

This should be a healthy debate, not a slander session.

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Guest KING BLING

How the do the religious members here feel about the various religious texts being the center of most religions <as in the informing source and the holiest document and tool of God> while being written by man?

 

I have heard in my real life conversations that the books are "God breathed" but my retort is always, 'so is everything else.' Ideas on the place of religious texts? Do they play too big a apart? Are they the word of God or the words of man as inspired by God and thus falable as all men are?

 

 

...

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The preservation of the scripture of Islam -- the Holy Qur'an -- is unique among world religions. No other religion has a scripture which is both as old and as well-preserved as the one possessed by Muslims today. Even scholars who are hostile to Islam admit that the Qur'an that exists today is exactly the same as the one that existed in the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Even though many people mistakenly assume that the Qu'ran (also spelled Koran) was written by Muhammad, it is actually the literal Word of God. Not only was Muhammad known by his people to be unable to read and write, but the Holy Qur'an clearly and repeatedly exclaims that it is from Almighty God - the Lord of the Universe. Unlike other religions, the followers of Islam have always considered their scripture to be the Word of God in total. The scriptures of other religions are made up of writings that were not considered to be scripture until many years after they were written - the letters of (St.) Paul are a good example of this. Additionally, the Holy Qur'an has always been in the possession of the common believer, and as such was circulated very widely. In this way, Muslims know that their scripture is authentic, unlike other so-called "scriptures" which are still claimed to be scripture even though their authors are unknown. The Qur'an also remained pure and authentic because unlike other scriptures, it was written down and memorized in the lifetime of the prophet that it was revealed to. Also, its wide circulation prevented scholars, clergy and religious councils from deciding what should and should not be part of the scripture -- since it was already in the hands of the people in its complete form. It has always amazed people to find out that the entire Qur'an was not only memorized word-for-word by hundreds of the companions of Prophet Muhammad, but that it has been memorized verbatim by thousands upon thousands of people until this very day in its original language of Arabic. It was only natural for Almighty God to preserve the scripture revealed to Prophet Muhammad, because he was the last Prophet and Final Messenger of God. In short, the Qu'ran is a unique scripture that has come down to us in its original form and unique language. Due to its pristine teachings and unquestionable authenticity, the Qur'an removes the need for man to wonder for himself how to worship and please God, since God Himself has clearly described these things.

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Here are some of the perfect names and attributes of God so that we can get a better understanding of who IS the creator.

 

A large number of the Beautiful Names of Allaah are repeated manifold in the Qur`aan as demanded by the occasion and it is necessary to explain their meanings in a succinct way. So we say:

 

(The Lord): This name has been repeatedly mentioned in many verses.

 

 

 

the Lord is the One Who nurtures and sustains all of His servants through regulating the affairs and granting all types of favours and blessings. More specifically He is the One Who nurtures and sustains his sincere friends by correcting and purifying their hearts, souls and manners. This is why their supplications are frequently made with this Noble Name because they seek this specific nurturing.

 

"And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." (18:58)

 

 

 

Allaah: He is the One and Only Deity, the One Who is Worshipped and the One Who deserves to be worshipped by the whole of His creation due to the Perfect Godly Attributes that He is described with.

 

"Allaah! There is none worthy of worship but He, the Living, the Sustaining. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He Knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world and in the Hereafter. They will not encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He Wills. His Footstool extends over the heavens and the earth and he feels no fatigue in guarding them. He is the Most High, the Most Great." (2:255)

 

(The King), (The Master and Owner) (the One to Whom belongs the dominion): He is described with the Attribute of The Master and Owner. These are Attributes of Grandeur, Majesty, Omnipotence and Regulation of the affairs of creation. The One Who directs all of the affairs to do with creation, command and recompense. To Him belongs the whole of Creation, all of it is subservient, owned and in continuous need of Him.

 

"Then High above all be Allaah, the True King. And be not in haste with the Qur'aan before its revelation is completed and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (29:114)

 

"Say: O Allaah! Owner of the dominion, You give the kingdom to whom You will and You take the kingdom from whom You will. You endue with honour whom You will and You humiliate whom You will. In your Hand is the good. Indeed You are Able to do all things." (3:26)

 

 

 

(The One): He is the One Who is singled out in all aspects of Perfection such that nothing else shares with Him in these. It is obligatory upon the servants to single Him out alone in belief, saying and action by acknowledging His unrestricted perfection, His uniqueness and singling Him out Alone for all types of worship.

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"god is a concept by which we measure our pain" -john lennon

 

 

to me, god is all that we see and hear. anything and everything is a piece of god. being closer to who we are is being closer to 'it'.

 

i don't see god as a vengeful deity with it's finger extended at man. i don't see god as anything to be afraid of. god just is.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

Do you really want to start a free-flowing discussion about this, or are you looking for a stage to paste down Qur'an quotes? It's not gonna be a healthy discussion if you choose the latter as your basis for argumentation.

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This would go much more smoothly for Daiwoo without the Koran quoting. No one reads that shit, and it simply makes your contributions skippable. If we are to have a respectable discussion about the nature of God, we should leave religion out of it. I think it is pretty clear that religion has fucked it up at nearly every given opportunity. By looking at the similarities found in multiple cultures regarding a 'god' or less clearly defined force/spirit/_____, I think we might be able to generate an interesting discussion.

 

What about the expanse of God? Planet/ solar system bound, or completely universal on some interstellar shit?

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Actually, KING BLING asked about the authenticity of scriptures and I gave him an explanation about the Qurans authenticity, and note: not once did I quote the Quran.

Just because I mentioned the quran does not mean I quoted the quran.

 

Originally posted by Krakatau@Aug 8 2005, 01:38 AM

If we are to have a respectable discussion about the nature of God, we should leave religion out of it. I think it is pretty clear that religion has fucked it up at nearly every given opportunity.

 

Krakatau, I don't think religion messed anything up, I think people messed up religion. I don't think that God would place us here with no foundation at all, no criteria or guidance. What kind of a creator would create something and leave no manual or guidance to follow to run smoother? That would make God unjust. To just create us and leave us to ourselves.Not even a cqr dealer would manufacture a car without a consice manual. My personal beleif is that All religions have one source. All religions came from the same place, except that people continue to screw them up. Now that doesnt mean that there is no correct path to follow , just that it takes time and study to come to it.

Anyway, I can leave out the Quran quotes if you like, (even though I did'nt even quote the quran at all in here)

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Originally posted by casekonly@Aug 8 2005, 12:33 AM

to me, god is all that we see and hear. anything and everything is a piece of god. being closer to who we are is being closer to 'it'.

 

 

 

 

I have spent a LOT of time contemplating and studying the nature of God and In my humble opinion there is a flaw in that "God is everything theory" I used to beleive that too, But then look at a peice of doo-doo floating and a toilet and say to yourself "is this God'?

God , the creator is faaaaaaaar removed from All imperfections in my view. He is The most high. The one who is in need of nothing.

 

That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"

 

Of course We can keep discussing this...I can talk about this for years.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

What's so imperfect about a piece of doo-doo? It is a perfectly normal byproduct of nature that can and does help new life grow. You may look at a turd in disgust because you are conditioned to do so (and consider it "waste"), but plants and insects hold it in high regard as something essential for their existence, and for nature to maintain its course. Defining what constitutes a "flaw" or an "imperfection" is not a simple matter.

 

Your third post on this thread, the one that preceeded mine and casek's, seems to be quoting scriptures. I might be mistaken, but those numbers after phrases in quotation marks definitely threw me off.

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Originally posted by El Mamerro@Aug 8 2005, 02:39 AM

 

Your third post on this thread, the one that preceeded mine and casek's, seems to be quoting scriptures. I might be mistaken, but those numbers after phrases in quotation marks definitely threw me off.

 

Oh yeah, That post....ha ha, I take that back...I did quote scripture.

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Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 04:36 PM

Here are some of the perfect names and attributes of God so that we can get a better understanding of who IS the creator.

 

A large number of the Beautiful Names of Allaah are repeated manifold in the Qur`aan as demanded by the occasion and it is necessary to explain their meanings in a succinct way. So we say:

 

(The Lord): This name has been repeatedly mentioned in many verses.

 

 

 

the Lord is the One Who nurtures and sustains all of His servants through regulating the affairs and granting all types of favours and blessings. More specifically He is the One Who nurtures and sustains his sincere friends by correcting and purifying their hearts, souls and manners. This is why their supplications are frequently made with this Noble Name because they seek this specific nurturing.

 

"And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." (18:58)

 

 

 

Allaah: He is the One and Only Deity, the One Who is Worshipped and the One Who deserves to be worshipped by the whole of His creation due to the Perfect Godly Attributes that He is described with.

 

"Allaah! There is none worthy of worship but He, the Living, the Sustaining. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He Knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world and in the Hereafter. They will not encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He Wills. His Footstool extends over the heavens and the earth and he feels no fatigue in guarding them. He is the Most High, the Most Great." (2:255)

 

(The King), (The Master and Owner) (the One to Whom belongs the dominion): He is described with the Attribute of The Master and Owner. These are Attributes of Grandeur, Majesty, Omnipotence and Regulation of the affairs of creation. The One Who directs all of the affairs to do with creation, command and recompense. To Him belongs the whole of Creation, all of it is subservient, owned and in continuous need of Him.

 

"Then High above all be Allaah, the True King. And be not in haste with the Qur'aan before its revelation is completed and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (29:114)

 

"Say: O Allaah! Owner of the dominion, You give the kingdom to whom You will and You take the kingdom from whom You will. You endue with honour whom You will and You humiliate whom You will. In your Hand is the good. Indeed You are Able to do all things." (3:26)

 

 

 

(The One): He is the One Who is singled out in all aspects of Perfection such that nothing else shares with Him in these. It is obligatory upon the servants to single Him out alone in belief, saying and action by acknowledging His unrestricted perfection, His uniqueness and singling Him out Alone for all types of worship.

 

That whole post looks like a bunch of koran quoting to me, but like I said, "skippable". So if it isn't, I apologize. Your random capitalization is annoying as well, since you seem to be making concessions right now.

 

I don't think that your 'floating shit' arguement makes much sense. Perhaps if you consider that the shit can be converted via the 'circle of life' into a slightly healthier and productive poppy field=> better heroin=> human euphoria, you might view the value of feces differently. Maybe God's removal "from All imperfections" means that the shit is perfect, and our innate imperfection as humans simply bars us from seeing it?

 

As far as the religion issue, I think that you are viewing religion as a product of god, while I view it as a product of man. So this may just be a semantics arguement. I can't imagine religion existing in the absence of man, in some raw, perfect form. We birthed religion and RITUAL, it wasn't sent to us. As far as the owner's manual analogy..... you get an 'F'. The kind of creator who would not include a manual would be the kind of creator whose nature exists outside the realm of human conception. Which I think fits the general concensus regarding the 'nature of god'. And who are you to judge whether or not god is just based on the authenticity and existence of scripture?

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Originally posted by El Mamerro@Aug 8 2005, 02:39 AM

What's so imperfect about a piece of doo-doo? It is a perfectly normal byproduct of nature that can and does help new life grow. You may look at a turd in disgust because you are conditioned to do so (and consider it "waste"), but plants and insects hold it in high regard as something essential for their existence, and for nature to maintain its course. Defining what constitutes a "flaw" or an "imperfection" is not a simple matter.

 

 

Ok lets talk about imperfection...since we can't use a peice of crap as an example, let's go a little further up the food chain and talk about humans.

 

#1 If we dont drink-we die

#2 If we dont eat -we die

#3 If we dont sleep- well I'm not sure what happens after the too tired to think phase but i'm sure it isnt pretty.

#4 If we get sick we do all types of imperfect actions such as Puke,

get diarheaa, etc etc.

#5 We cant see the future

#6 we die

 

God doesnt need drink

God doesnt need food

God doesnt need to sleep

God doesnt get sick

God sees all and hears all

God doesnt die

 

These are just a few of the Imperfections we were created with , Of course it is All part of God's perfect plan. But Us , we are not perfect and could never share in God's perfection. To say that we are part of God and he is part of us is to Lower God from his station of Exaltedness and make him humanlike or a creation, He is the Creator, Not the creaton. Something doesnt create itself. Not even in our limited scope could we ever imagine a car coming into existance on its own with no manufacturer . So what about us ? are we Gods of our own? Us and the doo-doo made it all?

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Originally posted by Krakatau@Aug 8 2005, 02:50 AM

That whole post looks like a bunch of koran quoting to me, but like I said, "skippable". So if it isn't, I apologize. Your random capitalization is annoying as well, since you seem to be making concessions right now.

 

I don't think that your 'floating shit' arguement makes much sense. Perhaps if you consider that the shit can be converted via the 'circle of life' into a slightly healthier and productive poppy field=> better heroin=> human euphoria, you might view the value of feces differently. Maybe God's removal "from All imperfections" means that the shit is perfect, and our innate imperfection as humans simply bars us from seeing it?

 

As far as the religion issue, I think that you are viewing religion as a product of god, while I view it as a product of man. So this may just be a semantics arguement. I can't imagine religion existing in the absence of man, in some raw, perfect form. We birthed religion and RITUAL, it wasn't sent to us. As far as the owner's manual analogy..... you get an 'F'. The kind of creator who would not include a manual would be the kind of creator whose nature exists outside the realm of human conception. Which I think fits the general concensus regarding the 'nature of god'. And who are you to judge whether or not god is just based on the authenticity and existence of scripture?

 

Actually, It was Quran Quoting, No need to apoligize, My bad I forgot about that post, Anyway. Are you saying that It would be Just for a creator to Create us and give us absolutely no guidance? Just our own desires and whims? And our own Imperfect outlook based upon personal experience and we are supposed to come up with an Idea of who is God all on our own, act accordingly and be held responsible for that?

 

Parents set rules and define boundaries, Government does it, everything has structure , but god lets us just roam around and

do whatever, beleive whatever with no accountability?

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Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 08:55 PM

These are just a few of the Imperfections we were created with , Of course it is All part of God's perfect plan. But Us , we are not perfect and could never share in God's perfection. To say that we are part of God and he is part of us is to Lower God from his station of Exaltedness and make him humanlike or a creation, He is the Creator, Not the creaton. Something doesnt create itself. Not even in our limited scope could we ever imagine a car coming into existance on its own with no manufacturer . So what about us ? are we Gods of our own? Us and the doo-doo made it all?

 

This stinks of religious doctrine. The car manufacturer shit makes no sense. No one said doo-doo made it all, nor is that where the 'god is everywhere' line of logic ends.

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No, what I was saying is that neither of us is in a position to cast judgement on the 'justness' of god. Basically it gets back to my personal opinion that religious scripture is some truth and a lot of bullshit.

You seem to be painting a picture of a god who has no active role in things. Can god not guide us on a personal basis without the aid of a book? I would think that it is within his capacity to actively communicate with us and all other things. Is god passive or active in your mind?

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Active communication vs. the passive nature of scripture would also cut out the middle man (or person who put pen to paper). That would allow for the individual to make choices via intuition and thus more accountable for his actions. Unable to use religious text as a sheild against accountability.

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I beleive that God is fully active in every sense, but I don't beleive that he directly communicates with humans on every level.

I think he shows us signs and then guides us through his scriptures on the finer details. Like how to pray, how to deal with ones family, He tells us about his nature and tells us not to worship or beleive in anything else besides him as being God owning or sharing in his divinity, things like these,

Of course we have whats called Common sense , You don't need a scripture to tell you not to hit your mother with a bat, but where did that knowledge come from Anyway? From God.

I beleive he created everything (even knowledge) and continues to manage and sustain everything. He knows eveything although we have free will to choose. As far as God not being Just without revealing guidance, Has God ever talked to you directly? or to anyone you know? By the way, the quran was not revealed as a book, It was revealed as the Word of God directly to the prophet Muhammads memory. and continued that way. Early Muslims have only compiled it as a book for means of convenience. It is supposed to memorized and committed to the heart, not just written on paper.

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krak, heres the deal, I think most people can generally decipher right and wrong. The most important thing is....If you are doing something good , are you just doing it for self gratification or so people will see you as someone who does good things? Or do you you do it to please and gain the reward of God as well as of course the good consequences of good? We know that The reward for Good is more Good and the reward for Evil is more Evil, but , on another level, What if all your good goes to waste because it wasnt sincerely for God?

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Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 02:05 AM

I don't think that God would place us here with no foundation at all, no criteria or guidance. What kind of a creator would create something and leave no manual or guidance to follow to run smoother? That would make God unjust. To just create us and leave us to ourselves.

 

Then what about illiterate 3rd world natives and aborigional tribes people that have never been exposed to the Quoran or Bible or whatever that merely exsist because they were born and have no way of knowing what's in "scripture" that they are saposed to do? Are they doomed to hell?

 

Also according to you the last messanger of god was Mohamed or Jesus (some people beleive they are one and the same). Why is it that God has "left us to ourselves" for so long? He must know that most people of normal inteligence are skeptical of "scriptures" that most likely were written by man, espescially without any proof otherwise. Or at least any proof in the past 2000 years. None of us were around 2000 years ago so how are we to determine fact from legend or rumor? I'm pretty sure that if God made some grand appearence today like opening up the sky and shouting down to Earth ..."I am God, I am not a myth. Follow the Quoran" or "follow the Bible" "or what have you that the VAST MAJORITY of people would beleive him. Does he not want us to beleive? Has he given up on us? And if he has given up on us then do we still have to go to hell, or can we just die in peace?

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Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 09:29 PM

I beleive that God is fully active in every sense, but I don't beleive that he directly communicates with humans on every level.

I think he shows us signs and then guides us through his scriptures on the finer details. Like how to pray, how to deal with ones family, He tells us about his nature and tells us not to worship or beleive in anything else besides him as being God owning or sharing in his divinity, things like these,

 

...? Didn't finish the thought, I suppose. Please clarify the 'every level' statement. Alright, so God communicates 'big picture' issues via intuition and then details come with the scripture. Cool. How's that one saying go? That thing about there the devil is?

 

 

Of course we have whats called Common sense , You don't need a scripture to tell you not to hit your mother with a bat, but where did that knowledge come from Anyway? From God.

So are you agreeing with me then?

 

I beleive he created everything (even knowledge) and continues to manage and sustain everything. He knows eveything although we have free will to choose. As far as God not being Just without revealing guidance, Has God ever talked to you directly? or to anyone you know?

No, god has never been like, "Damn son! Whatttup!" And what does that have to do with the "just god" issue? I don't think you are getting it: it's not our call.

 

By the way, the quran was not revealed as a book, It was revealed as the Word of God directly to the prophet Muhammads memory. and continued that way. Early Muslims have only compiled it as a book for means of convenience. It is supposed to memorized and committed to the heart, not just written on paper.

Cool. I don't really care. Let's turn this thread into one about neurotheology. That would be more interesting.

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Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 09:36 PM

krak, heres the deal, I think most people can generally decipher right and wrong. The most important thing is....If you are doing something good , are you just doing it for self gratification or so people will see you as someone who does good things? Or do you you do it to please and gain the reward of God as well as of course the good consequences of good? We know that The reward for Good is more Good and the reward for Evil is more Evil, but , on another level, What if all your good goes to waste because it wasnt sincerely for God?

Then it wasn't good.

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