Jump to content

discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth


Dawood

Recommended Posts

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 19 2005, 02:39 AM

truthfully Erizeno, God is not in need of your love.

 

So sad, so defensive and just so ignorant ....

 

If you want people to accept your blind faith in your choice of books, you would be a bigger person to be able to extend them the same.

 

I keep wanting to not come back here but its just too entertaining its a total trainwreck and I can't help but rubber neck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This forum is supported by the 12ozProphet Shop, so go buy a shirt and help support!
This forum is brought to you by the 12ozProphet Shop.
This forum is brought to you by the 12oz Shop.
  • Replies 2.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 18 2005, 09:39 PM

When you were a kid ,did your parents have rules? if you broke those rules did you get punished? also, do you think guidelines and laws are beneficial for people in societies? Well what about when they break those laws? should there be any consequences? if there is no consequences then won't there be lawlessness because nobody will respect the rules right? Ok, well, if we're with eachother on that, then what about God.

(or a higher power or whatever you ascribe to)

let's talk about the rights of people compared to the right of God.

Is it the right of the lawmakers and those who enforce them (generally) like the police to arrest us and punish us if we commit crimes like murder theft, rape etc.? yes , right? Ok, well then what about God, who is the ultimate lawmaker, doesn't he have the right to punish or to forgive according to his will?

 

The police are real. I know, because they took my paint.

Never seen a God though.

 

Getting off topic generates thousands of irrelevant words. My fundamental dismissal of Islam stems from simple mistrust in Mohammed the prophet. I distrust prophets because none of them have ever been proven right by the tenets of scientific inquiry. Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Jesus, crazy guy on the corner with a sandwich board, lots of words, lots of faith, couple of books, no proof.

We don't agree on the definition of "proof". Neither the Qu'ran nor Mohammed's words are proof by the standards of science. Should scientific proof of Islam crop up, I will take notice. Same goes for scientific proof of the afterlife, proof that justice is something more than a naive human desire, etc. Until then, I'm done butting heads with the headstrong.

I have nothing against the positive effects of religious adherence on those who would otherwise be lost. Unless your quest is to interfere with me in some way, then I wish you well on your road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by ERIZENO+Dec 20 2005, 05:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ERIZENO - Dec 20 2005, 05:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 19 2005, 02:39 AM

truthfully Erizeno, God is not in need of your love.

 

So sad, so defensive and just so ignorant ....

 

If you want people to accept your blind faith in your choice of books, you would be a bigger person to be able to extend them the same.

 

I keep wanting to not come back here but its just too entertaining its a total trainwreck and I can't help but rubber neck.

[/b]

 

when I said that, You missed my point. I was'nt trying to be defensive. God is not in need of anybodys love. We are in need of his love and his mercy etc. My point to you was that if you can't understand that God is Merciful and loving and at the same time he is a God of retribution , then you just can't understand his justice and that would be truly sad.

 

oh, and I'm not here to try to convert you or anyone else, I'm just here to discuss thats all. I just happen to enjoy discussing Islam.

It's funny that you say this is a trainwreck, I don't see it that way. I guess thats just life. One mans trainwreck is another mans Locomotive on track.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Cracked Ass+Dec 20 2005, 08:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cracked Ass - Dec 20 2005, 08:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 18 2005, 09:39 PM

When you were a kid ,did your parents have rules? if you broke those rules did you get punished? also, do you think guidelines and laws are beneficial for people in societies? Well what about when they break those laws? should there be any consequences? if there is no consequences then won't there be lawlessness because nobody will respect the rules right? Ok, well, if we're with eachother on that, then what about God.

(or a higher power or whatever you ascribe to) 

let's talk about the rights of people compared to the right of God.

Is it the right of the lawmakers and those who enforce them (generally) like the police to arrest us and punish us if we commit crimes like murder  theft, rape etc.?  yes , right? Ok, well then what about God, who is the ultimate lawmaker, doesn't he have the right to punish or to forgive according to his will?

 

The police are real. I know, because they took my paint.

Never seen a God though.

 

Getting off topic generates thousands of irrelevant words. My fundamental dismissal of Islam stems from simple mistrust in Mohammed the prophet. I distrust prophets because none of them have ever been proven right by the tenets of scientific inquiry. Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Jesus, crazy guy on the corner with a sandwich board, lots of words, lots of faith, couple of books, no proof.

We don't agree on the definition of "proof". Neither the Qu'ran nor Mohammed's words are proof by the standards of science. Should scientific proof of Islam crop up, I will take notice. Same goes for scientific proof of the afterlife, proof that justice is something more than a naive human desire, etc. Until then, I'm done butting heads with the headstrong.

I have nothing against the positive effects of religious adherence on those who would otherwise be lost. Unless your quest is to interfere with me in some way, then I wish you well on your road.

[/b]

 

So, then have you read any of the recent scientific findings that have been discovered after the revelation of the Quran? btw, Islam is not like christianity, the way that christianity and the bible is unscientific in many ways. The Quran is not like that. It is very in line with scientific findings.

I'll give you a few examples:

 

When Muhammad (pbuh) brought them the Qur'an, the believers found in the Qur'an the command to go out, seek knowledge, and confirm the presence of their Creator by studying His creation. Muslims began to fulfill this command of the Qur'an and this resulted in one of the greatest explosions of scientific advancement mankind has ever seen. All of this was going on during a period that the West calls "The Dark Ages," wherein the scientists of the West were being persecuted and killed as sorcerers and wizards. During this period, Muslims scholars introduced into the world such things as:

 

 

* Mathematical evolution of spherical mirrors

 

* Rectilinear motion of light and use of lenses

 

* Refraction angle variations

 

* Magnifying effects of the plano convex lens

 

* Introduced the concept of the elliptical shape of cosmological bodies

 

* Study of the center of gravity as applied to balance

 

* Measurement of specific weights of bodies

 

* Rule of algebraic equations

 

* Solutions to quadratic and cubic equations

 

* Work on square roots, squares, theory of numbers, solution of the fractional numbers

 

* Solutions of equations of cubic order

 

* Wrote on conic geometry elaborating the solution of algebraic equations

 

* Determined the Trinomial Equation

 

* Avicenna's "Canon of Medicine." He is know as the Prince of Physicians to the West

 

* Wrote the first description of several drugs and diseases as meningitis.

 

* Treatment of physiological shocks

 

* Expertise in psychosomatic medicine and psychology

 

* Al-Biruni mentions fifty six manuscripts on pharmacology

 

* Credited for identifying small pox and its treatment

 

* Use of alcohol as an antiseptic

 

* Use of mercury as a purgative for the first time

 

* First to describe the circulation of blood.

 

* "Holy Abbas" was, after Rhazes, the most outstanding Physician. His works were authoritative till the works of ibn Sina appeared

 

* Writings on Cosmology, Astrology, Science of numbers and letters

 

* Proved that the earth is smaller than the sun but larger than the moon.

 

* Final authorities on Chemistry for many Centuries

 

* Classified metals into three classifications

 

* Laid the basis of the Acid Base theory

 

* Distillation, calcination, crystallization, the discovery of many acids

 

* Cultivation of Gold - is a continuation of Jabir's work

 

* Theory of Oscillatory motion of equinoxes

 

* Addition of ninth sphere to the eight Ptolemaic astronomy

 

* Discovered the increase of the suns apogee

 

* Gravitational force

 

* Responsible for the discovery motion of the solar apsides

 

* wrote ' On the Science of Stars '

 

* Determination of latitudes and longitudes

 

* Determination of geodetic measurements

 

* Described the motion of the planets

 

* Solved the problems of spherical trigonometry

 

* First to study the isometric oscillatory motion of a pendulum

 

* Invented the instrument ' Sahifah "

 

* Responsible for the proof of the motion of the apogee of the sun with respect to the fixed stars.

 

* authorities on the theory of the system of homocentric spheres

 

* Prepared a calendar that was more accurate than the Gregorian one in use today.

 

 

...............and much, much more.

 

 

All of this began with a single illiterate Arab from the desert fourteen hundred years ago. The book that was brought into the world by such a man cries out to be studied from a scientific aspect. We will now give you a glimpse of the results:

 

 

"So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know"

 

The Qur'an, Al-Anbia(21):7

 

 

 

Example Number 1: Embryology:

 

Dr. Keith L. Moore is a Professor of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. He is a world renowned scientist and a distinguished researcher in the fields of anatomy and embryology, he has published more than 150 research articles, chapters and books in this field. He is the author of several medical textbooks, such as the widely used and acclaimed "The Developing Human: Clinically oriented Embryology" (now in it's fifth edition, and translated into eight different languages), "Before We Are Born" and "Clinically Oriented Anatomy." He has also recently co-authored "Qur'an and Modern Science, Correlation Studies." Dr. Moore is the recipient of numerous awards and honors, including, in 1984, the J.C.B. Grant Award, which is the highest honor granted by the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has served in many academic and administrative positions, including the President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, 1968-1970. Let us see what Dr. Moore's opinion is on the scientific statements regarding embryology to be found in the Qur'an:

 

 

Dr. Moore was contacted by a Muslim scholar by the name of Abdul-Majeed Azzindani. He was asked to participate in a three-year study of around twenty-five verses of the Qur'an and the Sunnah (sayings of Muhammad, pbuh) which speak about embryology, and to determine the their correspondence to modern scientific discoveries. Dr. Moore's conclusion regarding this matter was:

 

 

"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and the Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the seventh century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and of some of their contributions to Medicine, I new nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is important for Islamic and other students to understand the meaning of these Qur'anic statements about human development, based on current scientific knowledge. The interpretations of the "verses" in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, translated by Shaikh Azzindani, are to the best of my knowledge accurate."

 

From the forward of "The Developing Human: Clinically oriented Embryology," third edition, by Dr. Keith L. Moore.

 

 

The Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) provide a very detailed description of the microscopic development of the human embryo from a mere sperm drop up to the stage of a completely formed human being. It is well known that microscopes were not developed until the sixteenth century AD, and even at that were very crude in design. Zacharias Janssen is credited with having invented the compound microscope in about 1590. With it, remarkable scientific discoveries were made in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Dutch naturalist Anthony van Leeuwenhoek produced lenses powerful enough to prove that many tiny creatures are not spontaneously generated but come from eggs.

 

 

Before this period, theories on human reproduction ran rampant. Some scientist believed that the menstrual blood itself developed into the fetus. Later on, a new theory was developed wherein the sperm drop was popularly believed to contain a completely developed miniature human (homunculus) which later grew to the size of a baby. The science of embryology as we know it today did not discover many of the detailed aspects of human development which are taken for granted today until only about twenty years ago, or 1973 to be precise.

 

 

Now we must ask the question: where did Muhammad (pbuh) get such detailed knowledge of the microscopic development of the human embryo in the 6th century AD without a microscope, technical training, a laboratory of any kind, or even the ability to write his own name? The only logical conclusion is that it came from exactly where he claimed it did. From the one who created mankind, God Almighty!

 

 

Prof. Moore has since given numerous lectures on the topic of embryology in the Qur'an. He is quoted in one of these lectures as saying:

 

 

"It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allaah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allaah."

 

 

Prof. Moore was so impressed with the Qur'anic classification of the stages of development of the human embryo, that he suggested the adoption of the Qur'anic system in place of the system currently in use by scientists today. Prof. Moore said:

 

 

"Because the staging of the human embryo is complex owing to the continuous process of change during development. It is therefore suggested that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge."

 

 

When Dr. Moore first presented his findings in Toronto it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada. One newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore,

 

 

"Don't you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did some crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."

 

 

Professor Morre immediately pointed out to him, however, that he had missed a very important point. All of the slides of the embryo that Dr. Moore had based his study upon had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said,

 

 

"It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!." Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever?. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory."

 

 

When he was asked "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."

 

 

 

 

Example Number 2: The Universe:

 

Another example of such scientifically accurate statements in the Qur'an can be found in the following analysis:

 

 

"And the firmament (sky) We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Thariyaat(51):47.

 

 

(Remember: "we" is the Arabic plural of respect, not the Christian plural of "Trinity," as seen in chapter 14).

 

 

"Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were fused then We ripped them asunder, and We created from water every living thing, do they not believe?"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Anbia(21):30.

 

 

"Then He settled/equilibrated unto the firmament (sky) when it was smoke and said unto it and to the earth: come willingly or unwillingly. They said: we come willingly"

 

The noble Qur'an, Fussilat(41):11.

 

 

Allaah Almighty has in these three concise verses answered questions that it has taken some of the greatest physicists and astronomers of history centuries to answer. It was only in this century that they finally found the truth.

 

 

Mankind has studied the heavens and the earth for countless centuries. The Greeks were some of the first people to attempt to describe various cosmological phenomena. They gave us many of the very first theories regarding the universe and it's composition. The major contribution came with the writings of Plato. Plato claimed that the universe was created by what he called "The Demiurge." According to Plato, the universe was the result of reasoning and planning, it was constructed by the Demiurge upon precise mathematical and geometrical principles. Later on, Aristotle, Plato's student, adopted his teacher's basic concept. Aristotelian cosmology was based on the concept of an enclosed cosmos comprising a series of concentric, spheres revolving around a stationary Earth. Motion was provided by the "prime mover" and, once initiated, would remain circular, uniform and eternal.

 

 

Both Plato and Aristotle taught that the universe was eternal, with neither beginning nor end. The universe as a whole was considered steady and unmoving, and this was the basis for the later formation of the "steady state theory." In 1915, Albert Einstein had published the famous general theory of relativity. Soon afterward he proposed a static model of the universe, but he would later declare that it was "one of the greatest mistakes of my career." Why?, Because in 1925, Edwin Hubble (after whom the Hubble Space telescope is named) provided the observational evidence for the expansion of the universe, or as Stephen Hawking put it "The universe is not static, as had previously been thought, it was expanding."

 

 

Although mankind did not discover these facts till this 20th Century, still, we find that Allaah Almighty had provided the answers for mankind 1400 years ago in the Qur'an through the agency of His illiterate Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). During Muhammad's (pbuh) time, the Greeks were claiming that the cosmos was static and not expanding. So how did he know that the universe was expanding 1300 years before the foremost scientist of the West proved this to be a scientific fact?

 

 

However, this is not the only claim that the Qur'an makes with regard to the universe. Let us study the next two verses:

 

 

At the present time, the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe is the cosmological model most widely accepted by astronomers. It holds that about 20,000,000,000 years ago the universe began with the explosive expansion of a single, extremely condensed state of matter ("the heavens and the earth were fused then we ripped them asunder"). As mentioned above, a further development of this model, known as "inflationary theory," describes the original condensed matter as arising from virtually empty space. It was only after the development of radio telescopes in 1937 AD that the necessary observational precision was achieved in order for astronomers to arrive at the above conclusion. Out of the observations of such scientists has arisen the so called "Hubble Constant" (Ho) which is quantity currently used to gauge the rate at which the universe is expanding. In other words, the issue is no longer whether the universe is expanding or not, rather, it is only a question of how fast it is expanding.

 

 

The second and third verses presented appear to claim that the heavens and the earth were once a single mass then were "ripped asunder," The exact root words used in the Qur'an are the words "ra-ta-qa" and "fa-ta-qa," or "the heavens and the earth were 'ra-ta-qa' then we 'fa-ta-qa' them"

 

 

"Ra-ta-qa" is an Arabic word which has the general meaning of "to fuse, to sew, to mend, to patch up, to repair." ("Lisan Al-Arab," by Ibn Mandoor, Vol. 10, Dar Al-Fikr, p. 114, and also "A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic," Hans Wehr, Librairie du Liban, p. 325)

 

 

Similarly, "fa-ta-qa" has the general meaning of "To rip, to undo sewing, to unstitch, to tear apart, to rend, to rip open." ("Lisan Al-Arab," by Ibn Mandoor, Vol. 10, Dar Al-Fikr, p. 296, and also "A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic," Hans Wehr, Librairie du Liban, p. 695)

 

 

The verse then goes on to say that Allaah Almighty created the heavens and the earth from a celestial "smoke." Astronomers today have pictures of galaxies being formed by exactly this process, i.e. the condensation of spiraling celestial "mists." Isn't it an incredible coincidence that an illiterate man from the desert, without the aid of observatories or satellite imaging was making these claims over 1400 years ago?. Was he just guessing?

 

 

Further, the cosmic phenomenon depicted in the following two figures is commonly referred to by astronomists as a cosmic "mist." However, if we were to read the second verse of the Qur'an presented above we will find that the Qur'an more accurately refers to it as a "smoke." This is because "mist" implies a cool and tranquil spray of water. However, "smoke" implies a hot gas containing airborne particles. This is indeed another example of the literary miracle of the Qur'an in that it manages to convey to us in a very concise language a very accurate and detailed description of the topic at hand.

 

"And those who have been given knowledge know that that which has been revealed to you from your Lord is the Truth"

 

The noble Qur'an, Saba(34):6

 

 

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care) or are there locks upon their hearts?"

 

The noble Qur'an, Muhammad(47):24

 

 

Example Number 3: Water and Life:

 

In the Qur'an we read:

 

 

"Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together then we split them asunder, and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Anbia(21):30.

 

 

"And Allaah has created every trodding creature from water......"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Noor(24):45.

 

 

"It is He who created from water a human...."

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Furqan(25):54.

 

 

Water is the most common substance on Earth, covering more than 70% of the planet's surface. All living things consist mostly of water; for example, the human body is about two-thirds water (when you cremate a human what happens to him? Why?). Scientist tell us that all forms of life known to humanity today require three basic conditions: Temperature, the existence of water, and the existence of an atmosphere.

 

 

All metabolisms require water to survive, so animals that exist in arid regions have body mechanisms that protect against water loss and make maximum use of water (camels for example). Dehydration in humans results from lack of food, drink, and from sweating, in addition to other factors. This loss eventually affects the proper functioning of the heart, central nervous system, and organs containing smooth muscle. Finally, intercellular water is lost, which upsets vital chemical processes in the cells. If water is not restored to the body, death will usually occur within a few days.

 

 

The blood of all living creatures is composed of 55 percent plasma, which in turn is composed of more than 90 percent water. Jan Baptista van Helmont, the first experimental physiologist, around 1640 AD concluded that water is the only soil component required for plant growth. We could go on and on. Again we find ourselves asking the question: How did Muhammad (pbuh) know that all living creatures are created from water centuries before mankind discovered this fact through scientific experimentation? Did he randomly select an element from the countless billions of possible choices? Why did he not claim that mankind was created from air, or from wood, or from light? Why water?

 

 

 

Example Number 4: Deep sea currents:

 

In the Qur'an we read:

 

"Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covers it a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness."

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Noor(24):40.

 

 

Mankind began to build submersibles in the seventeenth century. The first crude craft known to have ventured underwater was built by Cornelis Drebbel, court engineer to James I of England, and was demonstrated on the Thames river in 1620. From then onwards, development of submarines continued until the twentieth century, or 1954 to be exact, when the first nuclear submarine became a reality. With mankind's study of the sea came the realization that the waters lying underneath the surface waves were not the place of tranquil calmness they were previously envisioned to be. Rather, there were underwater currents called deep sea currents which could at times become such violent storms as to rearrange sediments in the ocean bottom. How did Muhammad (pbuh) know about these underwater currents centuries before mankind invented the tools necessary for underwater exploration?

 

 

"Say: It was sent down by He who knows the secrets in the heavens and the earth."

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Furqaan(25):6.

 

 

It is worth mentioning here in connection with the above verse that some scientists have interpreted the "layer upon layer of darkness" to be the gradual separation of the light spectrum within the ocean, one color at a time until complete darkness is finally achieved. In other words, at one depth, the yellow bandwidth is suppressed and "yellow darkness" is achieved. At another depth, the red bandwidth is suppressed and "red darkness" is achieved, and so forth.

 

 

There are many other scientific statements made in the Qur'an which were only discovered to be scientifically accurate many centuries after Muhammad's death. Many of them have only been discovered in this century. They range over many fields of science including Anatomy, Chemistry, Astronomy, Geology, Hydrology, and many other disciplines which are only beginning to be addressed by scientists today.

 

 

For example, the Qur'an makes reference to the fact that a human's pain receptors are located in the skin (Al-Nissa(4):56). That the frontal lobes of the brain are responsible for lying and sin (Al-Alak(96):16). That mountains have below them roots that extend deep into the earth's surface (Al-Naba(78):7). That mountains pin the earth's crust and prevent it from moving (Al-Nahil(16):15). That there exists a physical barrier between bodies of fresh and salt water (Al-Rahman (55):20). There is also information regarding the formation of milk in cows (Al-Nahi(16):66). And on and on. So where was Muhammad (pbuh) getting all of these scientific facts if not from the Creator of mankind and the universe? Allaah Almighty askes:

 

 

"Is this sorcery or is it that you do not see?"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Tur (52):15.

 

 

Prof. Keith Moore is not the only scholar who has been presented with such verses of the Qur'an. Many other scholars from all over the world have been presented with similar statements from the Qur'an in their field of expertise. Only a few of these people are:

 

 

1) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, USA. Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. After studying the verses of the Qur'an he came to the following conclusion:

 

 

"The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but emphasizes also the internal stages - the stages inside the embryo of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science... If I was to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described... I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved..."

 

 

2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson. Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Baylor Collage of Medicine, Houston, Texas. He is the President of the American Fertility Society, and has served in many other professional, national, and international organizations. He has received numerous awards including Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. He has published more than 400 chapters and articles in journals and books. He says:

 

 

"... these Hadeeths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."

 

 

3) Dr. T.V.N. Persaud. Professor and Head of the Department of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Associate Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He is the author and editor of 25 books, has contributed 31 chapters to publications, and has published over 180 scientific papers. In 1991 he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He says:

 

 

"Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate... were talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature... I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements."

 

 

4) After a study which lasted ten years, the famous French physician Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 and expressed the complete agreement of the Qur'an and established findings of modern science. He presented his study on the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that

 

 

"our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."

 

 

5) Dr. Tejatet Tejasen, Head of the Department of Anatomy, Faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Thailand. After his study on the Qur'an passages dealing with embryology:

 

 

"From my studies and what I have learnt at this conference I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an 1400 years ago must be true. That can be proved the scientific way."

 

 

Others include:

 

 

6) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer. Professor and Coordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology in the Georgetown University school of Medicine. Washington, D.C. He has published numerous articles dealing mainly with the study of teratogenesis.

 

 

7) Dr. Alfred Kroner, Professor of Geology, Germany.

 

 

8) Dr. Yoshiodi Kozan, Director of the observatory of Tokyo, Japan.

 

 

9) Dr. William Hay, Professor of Oceanography, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado.

 

 

10) Dr. Pete Palmer, Professor of Geology, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado.

 

 

11) Dr. Sayawida, Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.

 

 

12) Dr. Armstrong, Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas.

 

 

13) Dr. Draga Persaud Rauw, Professor of Marine Geology, King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

 

 

14) Dr. Schroeder, Professor of Oceanography, Germany.

 

 

 

The response of these scholars when presented with verses of the Qur'an in their field of specialization, varied. One thing however was always constant. They all confirmed the accuracy of the scientific statements made in the Qur'an, and they all could not explain how Muhammad (pbuh) could have known with such accuracy the scientific claims to be found in the Qur'an so many centuries before mankind discovered them to be scientific truths.

 

 

Allaah Almighty tells us in the Qur'an:

 

 

"Allaah did not create (all) that except in truth. He details the signs for people of knowledge."

 

The noble Qur'an, Yunus(10):5

 

 

"And those who were given knowledge see that which was sent down upon you by your Lord is the truth and guides to the path of the 'Exalted' (in Might) the 'worthy of all praise'."

 

The noble Qur'an, Saba(34):6.

 

"Had We sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would surely have seen it humbling itself and rending asunder for fear of Allaah. Such are the parables We put forth for mankind that they may reflect."

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Hashr(59):21

 

 

"Verily! this Qur'an guides to that which is most upright, and gives glad tidings to the believers who work deeds of righteousness that theirs will be a great reward"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Isra(17):9

 

 

"And We have indeed simplified [the comprehension of] this Qur'an for remembrance, so is there any that will remember [and be admonished]?"

 

The noble Qur'an, Al-Qamar(54):17

 

 

To obtain a more in-depth analysis of these matters including video tapes containing interviews with many of these pioneering Western scholars, contact one of the following (ask for the video tape titled "It is the Truth"):

 

 

1) Academy for the Miracles of Science in the Qur'an and the Sunnah

 

P.O. Box 5736

 

Makkah Al-Mukarramah

 

Saudi Arabia

 

Phone: (2) 545-1519

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kemet, is what is known as the greater part of Egypt now. basically the entire nile valley in northeast Africa. not discounting arab/muslim comtributions to the world but Kemet was around for quite a while.

 

* Work on square roots, squares, theory of numbers, solution of the fractional numbers

-how you think they built the pyramids, aliens?

 

* Use of alcohol as an antiseptic

-ancient people knew brain surgery in Kemet.

 

* Rule of algebraic equations

--pyramids

 

* Solutions to quadratic and cubic equations

-pyramids

 

* Cultivation of Gold

-you ever seen a sarcophogus on discovery? all gold.

 

* wrote ' On the Science of Stars

-they knew how to navigate by starts and charts.

 

* Determination of latitudes and longitudes

-again they knew enough to sail to the americas to trade with native americans 5000 years ago. the oldest boat in the world to date was found in the americas made out of matreilas only found in the area that kemet/egypt is in.

 

shit i'm sure there is tons more.

you think i'm lying check any writings by Cheikh Anta Diop.

this shit blew my mind when i first read about it.

then again, who really cares who discovered what, we're all people. share the shit motherfuckers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually asked what the people of Kemet discovered (from the scientific findings I mentioned that came from the quran), but It's ok, I'm sure they had some breakthroughs. Not trying to take anything away from them, I just posted that becuase Cracked ass said "Should scientific proof of Islam crop up, I will take notice." And Crack, as for the proof of the afterlife, Allah says,

 

The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you, (At-Takathur 102:1)

 

Until you visit the graves (i.e. till you die). (At-Takathur 102:2)

 

You will surely come to know! (about the afterlife) (At-Takathur 102:3)

 

Again, You will surely come to know! (At-Takathur 102:4)

 

If you knew with a sure knowledge (the end result of piling up, you would not have occupied yourselves in worldly things) (At-Takathur 102:5)

 

Verily, You shall see the blazing Fire (Hell)! (At-Takathur 102:6)

 

And again, you shall see it with certainty of sight! (At-Takathur 102:7)

 

Then, on that Day, you shall be asked about the delight[] (you indulged in, in this world)! (At-Takathur 102:8)

 

It's not a sceintific proof crack, but the Quran itslef is a linguistic proof. If you knew arabic you would see the linguistic miricles in the quran also. coupled with the scientific findings in the quran that I posted above (and that is just a few of many). seriously, I have to say that nobody can truthfully come here and say Islam is wrong until they read the quran cover to cover and study the sunnah (prophetic traditions) along with the explanations of the scholars. Otherwise, as people have accused people who follow a religion, (particularly islam) of blind following. I can say that people who reject Islam who havent even read the quran etc. themselves are blindly rejecting it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That site is a joke, man. Those 'proofs' are like a fortune teller fishing and leading someone along. They are way too vague to be taken seriously.

 

If no one can discount islam without having studied it thoroughly, why can you discount other religions? Even if you are convinved that Islam is correct, what's to say you won't be even more convinced after having studied Christianity that Jesus was the son of god? Or that the raelians actually have their shit together?

 

I would imagine that anyone who spent that much time reading and studying a book would come to believe it, and probably started the endeavor with a desire to believe it. If not, they wouldn't have wasted the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by MrJackDaniels+Dec 21 2005, 11:07 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrJackDaniels - Dec 21 2005, 11:07 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 21 2005, 09:11 PM

I just posted that becuase Cracked ass said "Should scientific proof of Islam crop up, I will take notice." .

 

im still at a loss to see how some of those things you listed actually proves god exists.

[/b]

 

If you are looking for proof that god exists then that post (the things that I listed) Is not the right information. That was basically a list of muslim scientific advancements based upon the teachings of the quran and a few examples of things in the quran (revealed over 1400 years ago) that were only recently discovered by science.

 

As for the proving that God exists, then check this out:

 

//www.troid.org/articles/islaamicinfo/onenessofgod/allaahwhoishe/theexistance.htm

 

Again, I'm not trying to prove to anyone that a Creator exists, because, It is only Allah (God) that guides the people. I'm just here presenting my ideas just like everyone else is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

whoa...

 

 

 

 

I just read a great article in Harpers that everyone in here should read

if you have access to a newsstand and an interest in realistic faith.

 

 

Here's the VERY consise review:

 

So Thomas Jefferson took the new testament, and cut out all the 'miracles' that Jesus was credited with performing. This means his birth is out, so is water to wine, along with his resurection. What was left was just how he lived his life and treated people around him. This new view gives an almost eastern view of the man, where the kingdom of God is all around us, and all that matters is that we are open to it and good.

 

A clay jar was found in egypt that containted an ancient text. After much study, it was revealed to be a book written by a man, also named Thomas, long befor4e the gospels of Luke, Mark, Paul and John. It talks about the life lived by Jesus as a person, and the code of conduct he talked about, but no miracles. This view is very different from the views held by the church. The church has set heaven and earth to be opposites. You suffer in this life for rewards in the next. The wealthy kings of this world are paupers before God etc. Well Jesus never said that kind of thing. According to the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus was primarily concerned with how people live, and how they treated each other and the world. There was no talk of the afterlife, or finding God after death. It was all abotu finding God while you were living, and finding it inside of you.

 

The books is really just a collection of a hundred or so sayings that Jesus had apparently said.

here's one for example:

 

Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

 

There's way more I could get into, but I should get back to work.

do a google search if you're interested, and feel free to share.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Humans are a bunch of pretentious bastards. If an omnipotent being is responsible for the creation and workings of the universe there's no way in thirteen hells that we (mankind) will ever have the capacity to fully understand, explain, study or manipulate it.

 

Man is not at the center of the universe. Our brains evolved to compensate for our fragile little bodies and to help preserve our place on the planet. The 'conscious' we've developed is no more a divine gift than a giraffe's neck.

 

Get over it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by 26SidedCube@Dec 22 2005, 08:19 PM

Humans are a bunch of pretentious bastards. If an omnipotent being is responsible for the creation and workings of the universe there's no way in thirteen hells that we (mankind) will ever have the capacity to fully understand, explain, study or manipulate it.

 

Man is not at the center of the universe. Our brains evolved to compensate for our fragile little bodies and to help preserve our place on the planet. The 'conscious' we've developed is no more a divine gift than a giraffe's neck.

 

Get over it.

I agree with humans not having the capacity to fully understand , explain, or manipulate the universe. Anyone who would claim such a thing is exactly as you described him pretensious.

Although, If an omnipitent being is responsible for the creation and workings of the universe don't you think it would tell you something?

Or at least , it is a possibility that the creator would communicate with his creation in some form, yeah?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Dec 22 2005, 07:33 PM

whoa...

 

 

 

 

I just read a great article in Harpers that everyone in here should read

if you have access to a newsstand and an interest in realistic faith.

 

 

Here's the VERY consise review:

 

So Thomas Jefferson took the new testament, and cut out all the 'miracles' that Jesus was credited with performing. This means his birth is out, so is water to wine, along with his resurection. What was left was just how he lived his life and treated people around him. This new view gives an almost eastern view of the man, where the kingdom of God is all around us, and all that matters is that we are open to it and good.

 

A clay jar was found in egypt that containted an ancient text. After much study, it was revealed to be a book written by a man, also named Thomas, long befor4e the gospels of Luke, Mark, Paul and John. It talks about the life lived by Jesus as a person, and the code of conduct he talked about, but no miracles. This view is very different from the views held by the church. The church has set heaven and earth to be opposites. You suffer in this life for rewards in the next. The wealthy kings of this world are paupers before God etc. Well Jesus never said that kind of thing. According to the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus was primarily concerned with how people live, and how they treated each other and the world. There was no talk of the afterlife, or finding God after death. It was all abotu finding God while you were living, and finding it inside of you.

 

The books is really just a collection of a hundred or so sayings that Jesus had apparently said.

here's one for example:

 

Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

 

There's way more I could get into, but I should get back to work.

do a google search if you're interested, and feel free to share.

 

 

Rumpuncher, That was some interesting reading.

If youre interested in this topic, check this out.

http://al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/56.pdf

you'll probably find out some things that you never knew

about the life of Jesus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^Is that a haiku?

Proof read when you are blazed, man.

 

I guess I will add more.

Dawood-

What reason would an omnipotent being have to communicate with us? Given how inconceivably vast the universe is proving to be, isn't it rather pretentious to think that we play such an important role in this omnipotent being's plan?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would help if certain definitions were laid down for this discussion. Namely, what is the definition of the word faith, proof, truth, morality, and existence etc. That is why each philosopher spent innumerable pages defining these concepts in their own epistemology. It is impossible to discuss a concept if the language used is not uniformaly defined. I have thought a lot about the incongruences among philosophical thought in english versus an ideographic language. If one looks at translations of eastern texts into english, such as the Tao Te Ching, we find a use of exclusionary language. Defining things by their opposites. There is a specific word for it, but I can't particularly remember at the moment. But if you look at an ideographic language, you have one symbol to express an entire concept fully contextualized at the moment of cognition. Thus, I have a problem ever discussing religion with anyone anymore. It becomes a point of futility to try and discuss these huge and all encompassing ideas in a language that cant even be agreed upon by those in the discussion. It also seems that because the difference in our language is tied to the very systems of our thought, that it is therefor impossible to find a middle ground through which thoughts can be conveyed back and forth. Maybe I'm just too jaded, or I'm just wrong, either way, my thoughts on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Krakatau@Dec 22 2005, 11:19 PM

^^^Is that a haiku?

Proof read when you are blazed, man.

 

I guess I will add more.

Dawood-

What reason would an omnipotent being have to communicate with us? Given how inconceivably vast the universe is proving to be, isn't it rather pretentious to think that we play such an important role in this omnipotent being's plan?

 

Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

to add to that lenghty essay on the scientific advancements made by islamists:

 

 

it seems like everyone forgot about the advancments in sceince made by eastern cultures, like India and esp China. the Chinese made the same and sometimes far more advanced discoveries than either european or islamic cultures. and independently. they didn't have allah do it for them...the truth is islam made alot of discoveries based on its location as a crossroads betweeen two cultures. That is true for middle eastern culture in general, long before the concept of allah was invented...

 

Also a military-based culture is always gonna to make scientifc advancements, which is what islam is most obsessed with anyway...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...