discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[John Birch]

^^ its nice that you wrote all that out, but that story is very simplistic and barely scratches the surface of what we are talkin about here...

 

 

cold vs. hot? that a human created attributes... all heat is, is motion of light...aboslute zero is just absence of motion, but phenomen can still be measured...

 

 

Dawood, I know what your getting at, but your examples are kinda ridiculous..

 

and a philosophy professor would never say ther is a such thing as morlaity...that is a human created value judgment...

 

 

etc etc. basically I am saying no philospher nor anyone on this thread wopuld give the professor's oversimplified and uninformed responses...

 

 

and dude, Science is not a religion that we atheists types "believe" in...

 

 

Darwin was not some religious nut that we atheists types worship. in high school we learned most of his work was repudiated.

 

 

 

and lastly, with Islam you always posit a them vs. us mentality...maybe not in islamic morality thats not wrong, but in my morality, which I invented while sitting at starbucks drinking a large mocha, I believe all ideas are culture based and ultimately we humans are all cousins, so its ridiculous that we argue over essentially semantics, and residual cultural notions given to us by those around us...(tv, family, teachers, friends).

 

 

 

like I think emo people are silly looking, but they're also as silly looking to uzbekistani herders... but we're still all people...in the big picture the only diffrences are cultural, which have no meaning or value outside of what we as humans give them...

[Dawood]

John, I didn't type all that out, my 3 yr old was playing with my computer , banging on the keyboard and when I came back I noticed that post all arranged and in order and making sense. I mean, WOW. He even accidentally placed the punctuation marks in the right place and spelled everything right! Thats Amazing!

[gasfacevictm]

way to avoid the argument.

[shape1369]

I'm not even gonna talk about this shit. Get back on topic or lets get a mod in here to clean the thread once it does...

 

 

Ok, I am gonna respond to Dawoods original story.

 

First off, the proffessor was the stupidest smart person ever. He was just smart enough to know to question things, but didn't really grasp anything. There are some specific examples of rediculous positions he takes, and the responses from the second Islamic student are also as contrived. Yeah, thats the right word, Contrived. While both present the surface concepts of the arguments, it is obviously a crafted story to portray the misjudgements about contemporary science from a specific perspective. PROPOGANDA CLAP CLAP, CLAP CLAP CLAP. oops, no caps.

 

Anywho, the point is I, and any one else who has taken an intro level philosophy class, could refute all of the professors claims from the student's perspective. It was easy to see his jumps in logic and thus the weakness inherit to it.

 

Secondly your suggestion that all the comparisons made are in the form of a false duality, is clever but not true. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE who has taken a single semester of physics will know the fact that there is only a lack of heat and not cold.There are certain things that do exist in a dialectic form. Evil can not exist without good, because there is no comparison. Vice versa. Thus they are interrelated undividably. Time and space can not be seperated, ever. Their are defined as characteristics of themselves. Thus we find perfect examples of natural, from different perspectives, examples of dialectics existing. So, what you did was a nice slight of linguistic tonge, and slipped certain obvious common misconceptions with some other "naturally occuring" dialectics.

 

Also, anyone with a knowledge of epistomology, which a PhD of philosophy would, should know that science and any other mode of thinking, is flawed. Thus, the professor would infact know that "his" science is flawed.

 

The dullard you created is in fact a reflection of the public misconception and misguidance about science and its results. As a physics major I am forced to take a Writing in Physics class because there has to be a better interface between the scientific and public world. Every epistomology has their own vernacular. And when the public recieves science in its raw form, they can't interpret it because of their lack of familiarity with the langauage used. And it is those disparities between public entities and the scientific community that you exploited in your tirade against science and rational thought. Normally I dig your responses as an intelligent, if not a little naive sometimes, defenses for a religion that I like the most, but this shit was rediculous. Lets get back up to par...

 

 

 

 

edit for editing...

[Dawood]

Shape,

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't defend religion. (in general) I defend Islam. Most Religions as they exist today are evolvig into something different than what they originally were.

Thus, the concept of innovations into religion (newly invented things in religion) In Islam , anything new (by way of worship or beleifs) is rejected totally. Nobody has the authority to come and bring something new into Islam, and if they try, It is rejected and refuted by the scholars of Islam.

I'm getting a little off topic here because It's difficult for me to fathom a human being who was created to totally reject the notion of a creator (in absolute terms). I have spoken to people who call themselves agnostics and what I've gotten from them is that they don't disbeleive in a creator, nor do they beleive, so my take is basically , theyre confused.

No problem , we all get a little confused sometimes.

Shape, (and other like minded people) have you ever thought about the possible consequences of your rejection of the notion of God? Based on what you have presented to me (and I may be wrong altogether) You don't beleive in creation and you see yourself as being self maintained. Now, what if I'm wrong and I wasted all of my faith in this creator?

What are my consequences? Because you have to admit, there are consequences to everything. We have the free will to choose our actions, but we don't have the free will to choose the consequences of those actions, right? So, It is a possibility that for your rejection of God, (which I understand you don't beleive in) You could be seriously "hurtin for certain" (my Pops used to say that, ha, ha) In your mind is there a slight possibility of that?

 

Anyway,Forgive me for my lack of scholarship and eloquent writing capabilities. I'm a simple guy, I eat Raisin Bran Crunch for breakfast and wrestle with my kids in between 12 oz. posts. I tend to over simplify things. (hence the slightly naive posts.) I'm not overly interested in jargon and rhetoric.

 

Life is too short. I have to admit, I don't know much about epistomology or physics. (physics more than epistomology)

I barely graduated high school and then I got bent and wrote on things for the greater part of my teenage to early manhood years. I do however ,pay attention to my enviroment. I'm amazed by the alternation of the Sun and the moon. I enjoy reflecting on the miricle of a child being born. And I realize that my heart is the commander of my army (so to speak). If my heart is corrupted , then all of me will be corrupted. Some people think that the brain is the origin of all of our thoughts and hence actions. I disagree, The heart is what directs the mind , and the mind directs the body. Think about the last time you decided you really liked somebody, you felt it in your heart, then your mind ,and your body followed the actions of your heart and mind together.

Sometimes our minds tell us something that our hearts don't agree with.

 

"For sure , in this creation, are signs for those who reflect."

 

Sorry for the I-I-I's....I'm in a coffee shop and they have some sad violins playing in the background. Shape, I respect that you have done your studies and you mentioned that we should stay on topic or we'll call the 12oz-po-po and clean up the thread. Remember, the thread is called "the Nature of the creator of the heavens and Earth" So , the original idea was to discuss exactly what IS the nature of the creator, not whether there IS a creator, but no problem, I just don't like when people start talking about calling the fuzz. Just let the people vibe, why you gotta call "the man"?

(insert little emoticon here jabbing shape in the ribs)

 

So, anyway, where were we...OH yeah, I beleive in God, you don't......anyone else have something to add?

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Don't worry about this having to get cleaned up. As far as I can see, this thread has remained on topic and respectful for the most part.

 

I must say, I think it is absolutely essential that in a thread about the nature of the Creator, the topic of whether this Creator does or does not exist should show up and be discussed. I really don't think you'd have much of a conversation with most people here otherwise. It'd be like "Yep, God is omnipotent and good, and that's that".

 

Oh, and what you mentioned about the faithful not really having anything to lose as opposed to the faithless is commonly known as Pascal's Wager.

[Dawood]

I'll check out that rascally wager later, Although I'm not a gambler.

 

I gotta get to work.

 

anyway, in conclusion,

"Yep, God is omnipotent and good, and that's that".

[!@#$%]

Originally posted by Dawood+Dec 30 2005, 11:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Dec 30 2005, 11:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by symbols@Dec 30 2005, 04:27 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 29 2005, 12:30 AM

do you write graffiti symbols?

Quoted post

 

since i am not religious, i don't know how this even applies to the discussion

but yeah, i do write graffiti

a lot.

 

i care about humanity and nature and the environment and do my best to abide by it

but i'll never look to a God, being, book or prophet for guidance on how i should live day to day

 

sometimes i look to buddhist or zen philosophy for meditation and that helps me focus

but it's never about worship

 

it's just hilarious for me to even conceive that there would be a God that cared about graffiti

Quoted post

 

 

the reason I asked was because you said

 

 

"so-called 'religious' people often don't even have any respect for mother earth or our environment."

 

And I was just wondering if you wrote graff with a respecting the enviroment-type mentality. I just thought it would be a conflict of interest ,thats all.

 

but on the God/worship tip, is it unconceivable to you that we (humans) are a part of a greater order. That there is a God who created us and has a plan? Just look carefully at the world. Nothing exists that you can touch except that it has an owner, a manufacturer or some sort of origin. I mean, nothing physical just came from nowhere, so, logically there must be some sort of creator to all of this that we see, right? Nothing exists on a small scall without a creator or manufacturer (for example, coca cola , a ford truck , a bicycle , krylon ultra flat black (I love the smell of that stuff) right? so if all of these things didn't and do not have the ability to create or manufacture themselves, then how do we (as humans, or even if we include the whole universe) How do we think this all happened without a creator?

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

there is no conflict of interest

i care about the environment, i also write graffiti

religion has nothing to do with either of those things

and religion has very little influence on my life, none that isn't political.

i clean up my cans

but i don't ever thank god for my abilities, nor do i curse him for all the things that have gone awry

 

no, it does not follow logically that because things evolved over time from what humans today liek to belittle as "nothing", things were created.

 

have you ever heard one of the universal laws of science?

matter is not created or destroyed, it simply changes from form to form

 

the more you understand about chemistry expecially chemical reactions, states of matter, and the nature of atoms and elements, the more you have an understanding of how complex relationships between matter and elements gave rise to life, and eventually complex beings.

 

since i have learned more about stirng theory, i have even less belief in a deity

i mean, we are so utterly insignificant in the universe

that to think we are part of some master plan is simply elevating us to a level of importance that we have never, and will never, have.

 

 

uhhhh and science has 'theories' about how all this happened, in case you have never heard of the big bang, or evolution.

i guess you'd also assume then, that dinosaurs were created by god for some divine purpose and then all massacred?!

[FunTimePartyTeam]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/04...reut/index.html

[Dawood]

Originally posted by symbols+Jan 4 2006, 07:25 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (symbols - Jan 4 2006, 07:25 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Dawood@Dec 30 2005, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by symbols@Dec 30 2005, 04:27 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Dec 29 2005, 12:30 AM

do you write graffiti symbols?

Quoted post

 

since i am not religious, i don't know how this even applies to the discussion

but yeah, i do write graffiti

a lot.

 

i care about humanity and nature and the environment and do my best to abide by it

but i'll never look to a God, being, book or prophet for guidance on how i should live day to day

 

sometimes i look to buddhist or zen philosophy for meditation and that helps me focus

but it's never about worship

 

it's just hilarious for me to even conceive that there would be a God that cared about graffiti

Quoted post

 

 

the reason I asked was because you said

 

 

"so-called 'religious' people often don't even have any respect for mother earth or our environment."

 

And I was just wondering if you wrote graff with a respecting the enviroment-type mentality. I just thought it would be a conflict of interest ,thats all.

 

but on the God/worship tip, is it unconceivable to you that we (humans) are a part of a greater order. That there is a God who created us and has a plan? Just look carefully at the world. Nothing exists that you can touch except that it has an owner, a manufacturer or some sort of origin. I mean, nothing physical just came from nowhere, so, logically there must be some sort of creator to all of this that we see, right? Nothing exists on a small scall without a creator or manufacturer (for example, coca cola , a ford truck , a bicycle , krylon ultra flat black (I love the smell of that stuff) right? so if all of these things didn't and do not have the ability to create or manufacture themselves, then how do we (as humans, or even if we include the whole universe) How do we think this all happened without a creator?

Quoted post

 

 

there is no conflict of interest

i care about the environment, i also write graffiti

religion has nothing to do with either of those things

and religion has very little influence on my life, none that isn't political.

i clean up my cans

but i don't ever thank god for my abilities, nor do i curse him for all the things that have gone awry

 

no, it does not follow logically that because things evolved over time from what humans today liek to belittle as "nothing", things were created.

 

have you ever heard one of the universal laws of science?

matter is not created or destroyed, it simply changes from form to form

 

the more you understand about chemistry expecially chemical reactions, states of matter, and the nature of atoms and elements, the more you have an understanding of how complex relationships between matter and elements gave rise to life, and eventually complex beings.

 

since i have learned more about stirng theory, i have even less belief in a deity

i mean, we are so utterly insignificant in the universe

that to think we are part of some master plan is simply elevating us to a level of importance that we have never, and will never, have.

 

 

uhhhh and science has 'theories' about how all this happened, in case you have never heard of the big bang, or evolution.

i guess you'd also assume then, that dinosaurs were created by god for some divine purpose and then all massacred?!

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

the fact that things evolve and matter changes from one form to another such as water to steam, ice to water , etc.....This is not a proof that something divine did not create them both and everything else. To say that there is no creator is claiming to have knowledge of the unknown and that , my freind is a very weighty thing. You cannot tell me with certainty that there is no possibility that everything was created (you, and other people may have theories) But , since you did not witness these primitave elements combining and eventually (theoretically) spawning intellegent life, You and everyone else who holds these ideas are merely speculating at the unknown. Let's be real, You can't possibly know for sure that there is no God who created all of this. This knowledge is beyond your capability. The same way I don't have specific knowledge of God's true nature. I may know some things about God, but he is hidden from my eyesight and my comprehension so I can't truly claim to encompass God's innermost qualities that only he is aware of, why? because that knowledge is Unknown to us , Only God knows.

The reason I can confidently say I beleive in a creator , rather than not beleiving in a creator is because I live in his creation, I AM his creation. If you look at a car , you will logically think to yourself , that there is a manufacturer of this car. Or a book, there is an author. This is such a simple concept to grasp, thats why the majority of the world from the time history began being recorded to now beleived in God.

Why? because it's logical.

 

anyway, I'm going to start a cartoonless comic book...

here's my first issue

 

Hey look, there's a can of coke Jimmy!

 

Do you think it came from nowhere Bobby?

 

Don't be stupid Jimmy, It came from the coca cola bottling company.

 

But maybe it just fell out of the sky Bobby, you know , like from protons and electrons and Chemical Reactions and stuff!

 

Jimmy, Youre an idiot , gimme the coke , I'm thirsty.

 

Seriously,

 

It seems like people nowadays have gotten to "technologically advanced" that they are deceiving their ownselves with a whole trainload of mumbo jumbo.This atheism thing is like a gay emo trend nowadays. If you don't want to be religious, that's between you and your creator, fine, but How can you be so arrogant to totally reject the notion of a creator when you have no solid proof he doesn't exist. Well, then you might say, Dawood, you knucklehead, you have no proof he DOES exist. I'll say to that. Look around you. Why does every animate object have a manufacturer or maker individually, But collectively the rules change and even though things within the universe make one another and manufacture one another , The universe ITSELF is a product of pure circumstance and confusion.

It doesn't make sense.

 

(and todays announcement:)

 

don't be a nitwit like Jimmy.

[John Birch]

dawood... all you really do is make a good argument for Polytheism...cans, computer, boats, all inanimate objects that aren't alive... they basically come from elements mined from the earth...they have no meaning or value without the subjective ideas of people...

 

 

***but the truth is, to use your example, is that None of those things you mentioned were created by One person, or at One time.

 

a ship is not guided by one captain... it is steered by a captain, his staff and people in the engine room and a navigator. also the currents and wind guide the boat. The captain's boss or bosses tell the captain where to go, which is determined by the logistics manager of the company run by stock holders. Which is incumbant upon the economy, run by billions of people...

 

 

plus a ship was not created by one person or invented by 1 person. ships evolved over thousands of years, synthesizing ideas from many thousands of cultures and people, alot of which was incumbant upon the local environment...

 

 

computers are an even better example. No one invented the computer or the internet...they both have evolved from thousands or millions of different elements...

 

 

so I think your examples of bottles, cans, ships etc makes a better argument for evolution and the non-existence of god that it does for the existence of god. At the best it makes a good argument for the existence of many many gods...

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 4 2006, 09:27 PM

 

But maybe it just fell out of the sky Bobby, you know , like from protons and electrons and Chemical Reactions and stuff!

 

Quoted post

 

 

EXACTLY.

 

The very rule that says "if a particle spins this way, its pair has to spin the other way" will eventually lead to the complexity of life, intelligence, and human manufacturing. A rule that sprang to life during the very first microseconds of the universe's life because of the way it expanded, a universe that sprang to life from a vacuum of probabilities that required no outside influence to spark off.

[!@#$%]

if i believe in a God, it is Nature

that is what i said before

 

you claim your body is evidence of god?

i claim it is evidence of the intricacies of nature, evolution, biology, chemistry, and all those other complex interplays that can be explained away quite simply and easily by saying "it's god"

 

people have made "nature" (our actual creator) into a "being"

and humanity has decided to give god a personality

and a set of rules, and thoughts, and sometimes even wishes and goals, such as world domination through conversion.

 

why is it so hard to come to terms with nothingness?

that we all have come about as a result of growth, evolution and biology

oddly, tangible things in our world that can be studied and understood

that have proof, who's origins can be traced and followed, rather than simple speculation

 

and seriously.

saying it's an emo trend and don't be a nitwit?

get over yourself, yoour religion, your judgements, and all the things that you apparently make you think you are better than me.

[Dawood]

Symbols, I never said I was better than you (did I say i was better than you?) No, I never said I was was better than you.

 

Only Allah knows our hearts, and who's better than who.

 

 

here's something about the origin of man.

 

Who is the Man?

 

Let now move on to know something about our human origin. They thought that the origin of Man was from a monkey or a dog. But, Allah the Almighty said,

 

He Who created all things in the best way and He began the creation of man from clay. And made his progeny from water.�

(As-Sajdah: 7-8)

 

Allah honored the Man as He commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam.This honorable status is mentioned in the Qur'an

 

“We have honored the sons of Adam.�

(Al-Isra': 70)

 

And,

 

“It is We Who have created you: why will ye not admit the truth?�

(Al-Waqi`ah: 57)

 

However, there are many atheists who do not want to believe in Allah. Theyjust want to look for any theory to justify their unbelief. Therefore, they believed in the theories of Darwin, Spencer, Cant and Marx so as to emphasize their animality and to be stripped of their humanity. Such theories, undoubtedly,inculcate in their minds that they were created by chance and originatedfrom monkey, dogs and frogs.

 

In his book, Science Leads to Faith, Kris Morison argued that, "The theory which states that the origin of Man is a monkey was refuted by modern science and anthropological and archeological studies in early seventieth century.He also argued that both creatures are totally different. Man has some functions which do not exist in the monkey. For example. Thinking and the spirit of community: living in tribes and nations, and belonging to parties and religions.There are also many distinctive properties of Man; biological, demographic,anthropological, physiological, ethnological and morphological! (KrisMorison, Science Leads to Belief)

 

They also found some corpses and bones that belonged to people of different tribes and also their animals in tombs made of stones millions of years ago. But, they did not find the expected chain alleged by Darwin and the Mass Media.

 

In this manner, we realized the falsehood of the allegation that stated,"There must be a missing link between Man and animal."

 

Dr. Wallace denied the creation of Man by evolution. He said, "Evolution cannot be plausible. Man was created separately."

 

Virjo also said, "We have observed that man and monkey are completely different we cannot assume that Man belongs to monkey or any other origin. Those are just baseless allegations and suppositions."

 

The idea of the reproduction of a new kind from a forgoing one, as Darwin and his followers believe, is just a haphazard supposition contradicting therecent physiological and scientific facts.

 

Eventually, the followers of Darwin declared their failure by saying, "The theory of evolution is just a supposition and is not scientifically settled.Only because it is alternative of belief in God they allege it.

 

In early seventies, the TV channels announced an international report fromthe university of California in America concerning a serious scientific discovery.One of the archeologists declared that he found the missing link between Man and monkey (a human skull and a monkey jaw). Accordingly the university purchased this discovery in return for six million dollars. Then they began to propagate the new issue and ridicule those who believed that Man was createdby God. Eventually, one week after this glaring fuss, they declared that there was a mistake. Someone among the research team deceived them. He glued the human skull with the monkey jaw so skillfully that none could find out such trick without using highly developed equipments or rays. The forger went away with the money leaving the university in great sorrow and loss. Also none could claim that there is a Missing Link even between two kinds of animals.Thus, the process of creation remains an insolvable mystery in the universe.(Ihsan Haqi, Creation not Evolution)

[John Birch]

huh?

 

 

do you even know who any of those people you quoted are ar what they researched?

 

 

how many times:

 

 

atheism is not a religion

 

 

darwin is not some mohammed or john smith. oi...

 

 

we, unlike you, do not get knowledge from some book

 

 

also that "book" you quoted.. funny how I can only find it on islambasics.com... and its mostly a diatribe against jews...cuz I guess jews invented atheism as much as they invented god, lol

[!@#$%]

i'm not exactly atheist.

more of an agnostic

the idea of the soul is a comforting and appealing one.

 

look, if you want to worship something, that is fine by me.

you asked me about graffiti and i got way more involved in this than i wanted to.

 

also, there is far more evidence than just a fossil linking the lineage of man to primates.

but you can live in denial.

see, i'm not trying to convert anyone

i'm not out there trying to impose my belief system on other people

 

and you never said you were better than me, no

but it is a logical deduction from your self righteous preaching

you did after all, warn me to not be an idiot.

[Dawood]

Ok, symbols, I can see religion and jokes don't mix well, especially online, where you can't see the goofy grin on my face. For the record though, I was just kidding.

This exchange of information we have going on here has been fun, I still beleive that Allah will guide whoever he wills from amongst you (as athiest or agnostic as you claim to be) Whoever Allah guides, none can misguide and whoever Allah misguides, none can guide.

I used to be just like a lot of you. Along with maturity comes realizations and some of you will realize someday that there IS a greater power, if Allah wills. So, even though you reject Allah, he still feeds you and clothes you and gives you a place to live under his sky. He is merciful to you, even after all that, so who am I to Judge? If Allah can show you mercy (and his rights over us are the greatest) then who am I to be merciless to you? I'll still ask Allah to guide you, even if you think I am a propaganda spewing blind follower, I know better and Allah knows best.

[shape1369]

You know Dawood. You take religion as it should be taken. For as much as I seperate myself from religion and whatnot, I do respect much of its intent. And I feel like you have a good grasp of the better sidesof Islam and spirituality in general. I have a quesiton, for you though. It seems to me that you have converted to Islam?

 

 

I have a theory that those raised into an religion tend to miss its point and thus it becomes a bad situation. I typically end up having more respect for those that convert as they have taken time to find the true understanding of a religion.

 

 

Also, sorry for that outburst a couple days ago. I had been flying all day back to school and was pissed at everything. I do have a lot of respect for you, Dawood, I was just upset in general and at that story.

 

I would like to discuss evolutioin for a second as I think there are a few misconceptions in here. To back up symbols, there is quite more than just the fossil record. But let me first define the theory of evolution. It is that ALL ORGANISMS have a familiar ancestory. Not that humans came from monkeys, but that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

 

Also, if one wants to do some interesting research into evolution, especially at a global level, look at some of the mass extinctions in history. The cambrian explosion is an interesting example of evolution in practice. The amounts and variations of life that came about at that time is rediculous. Because much of the life forms were not ultimately too varied you can still see similarities in the structure of the forms. I think it's pretty cool... Thats also cus I'm a nerd at heart.

 

still promoting Taoist physics thread... Jan 2G6

[Dawood]

Shape, I am a revert to Islam. I use the word revert rather than convert because I beleive that everyone is born muslim, but it's our upbringing that makes us a christian, atheist, Jew, hindu etc.

Yeah, generally, people who reverted to Islam seem to practice Islam a little more faithfully, I guess, but that's just my American observation. A lot of the muslim immagrants that come to America come for worldy reasons and they get all caught up in the materialism of America and it's so called "freedom". In a lot of middle eastern countries the enviroment is very restricted in terms of being free to commit sins out in the open. Soceity there in general looks down upon unmarried relationships and liquor, drugs, and just general immorality due to the influence if Islam in the lives of the people. When they come to America, It's like a culture shock and a lot of immagrant muslims become infatuated with America's glitz and glitter while a lot of the revert American muslims are really unimpressed by it because we've seen it our whole lives. Although , some of the best muslims I know come from Morrocco, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Malaysia and were raised muslim so it's not really a standard.

 

And don't worry about it shape, I did'nt get offended by your outburst. I say things all the time I have to apolagise for because I feel bad about it later. You know, I respect a person who has the ability to do that. It's not always an easy thing to do.

[Krakatau]

Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 7 2006, 03:36 PM

Shape, I am a revert to Islam. I use the word revert rather than convert because I beleive that everyone is born muslim, but it's our upbringing that makes us a christian, atheist, Jew, hindu etc.

Quoted post

 

I didn't read past this little sentence, as it seems predicated upon this little bullshit snippet. Everyone is born a Muslim, and then various regional cultures are to blame for any deviation from the Islamic code of conduct? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

So just for clarity's sake, a child raised in complete isolation would grow into a perfect muslim.

[John Birch]

Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 7 2006, 04:51 AM

So, even though you reject Allah, he still feeds you and clothes you and gives you a place to live under his sky. He is merciful to you, even after all that, so who am I to Judge?

Quoted post

 

 

 

what about poor children who have no clothes, food or shelter? Doesn't seem like Mr. Allah cares about them.

 

 

Now that I think about it, Allah seems alot like Mr. Bush, but I won't get into that...

 

 

 

***

the gist of the matter I think between us "atheists" and muslims is that us "atheists" begin with the presumption that every person, every animal, every living being, or even all matter are EQUAL.

 

 

You think, because of some human created ideas, that some people, some cultures, some animals, some living beings are superior than others.

 

^^^that my son, is the root of all evil and hatred and racism, sexism, nationalism etc in this world.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by Krakatau+Jan 7 2006, 10:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krakatau - Jan 7 2006, 10:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Jan 7 2006, 03:36 PM

Shape, I am a revert to Islam. I use the word revert rather than convert because I beleive that everyone is born muslim, but it's our upbringing that makes us a christian, atheist, Jew, hindu etc.

Quoted post

 

I didn't read past this little sentence, as it seems predicated upon this little bullshit snippet. Everyone is born a Muslim, and then various regional cultures are to blame for any deviation from the Islamic code of conduct? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

So just for clarity's sake, a child raised in complete isolation would grow into a perfect muslim.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

not neccessarily a perfect muslim , but inclined toward his creator, Yes.

I'm not talking about the Islamic code of conduct, I'm talking about the Islamic BELEIF that there is no true God to be worshipped except the true God who created everything who is not a man, nor a stone or a statue, nor is he created, Allah is the creator. This is the thing that I'm talking about, It is called the fitrah. The natural inclination toward one God. We all have it. It is ingrained in our selves. Not wvwryone recognises it or knows it is there, but It is there, just as sure as our heart is present in our bodies, the fitrah (natural inclination toward a creator) is there. The Islamic code of conduct, the morals, the manners, the prayers, fasting, etc. This comes later, but what makes a person a beleiver as opposed to a disbeleiver is this ingrained state of being. That you recognose there is none worthy of worship but your true Lord and creator whose revealed name is Allah.

You may not like religion, you might not even like the idea of God, but something continually allows your heart to beat until it's prescribed time and then lights out....then the angels will start to question you. In the quran Allah talks about death as being the ultimate certainty. Meaning , if you don't know now, you will soon come to know.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by John Birch+Jan 8 2006, 01:37 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Birch - Jan 8 2006, 01:37 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Jan 7 2006, 04:51 AM

So, even though you reject Allah, he still feeds you and clothes you and gives you a place to live under his sky.  He is merciful to you, even after all that, so who am I to Judge?

Quoted post

 

 

 

what about poor children who have no clothes, food or shelter? Doesn't seem like Mr. Allah cares about them.

 

 

Now that I think about it, Allah seems alot like Mr. Bush, but I won't get into that...

 

 

 

***

the gist of the matter I think between us "atheists" and muslims is that us "atheists" begin with the presumption that every person, every animal, every living being, or even all matter are EQUAL.

 

 

You think, because of some human created ideas, that some people, some cultures, some animals, some living beings are superior than others.

 

^^^that my son, is the root of all evil and hatred and racism, sexism, nationalism etc in this world.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

it seems like youre missing the picture John, Muslims beleive that all people are created equal. Although not all people end up equal. Some are better than other according to who is best in beleifs and good deeds and only Allah knows that. a person is not better than another based upon money or culture or race or title or whatever.

The best of us is the one who has the most Taqwa (God consciousness or Love, Fear, Hope ) for Allah. That's what makes us better.

evil and hatred and racism, sexism, nationalism is exactly what Islam was sent to abolish and destroy. If you need references from the Quran I can post them. Also, you can't blame Allah for the evil in this world. People put themselves into situations, not Allah.

Allah is the creator and creates the actions of people and he also created the fact that they have free will to choose between goodness or evil. Just because a person chooses to be evil , this doesn't mean that Allah is to blame for this persons choice. Allah gave him free will, If Allah hadn't bestowed on us free will , then we could argue some injustice, but this isn't the case. We should know that whatever good comes to us is from Allah and whatever bad comes to us is from what our own hands have earned. And as for poor children with no food clothes or shelter, then, that's probably because Bush's army wiped them out , (nah, jk) But seriously, people are tested with different things. Some of us will be tested with having money, some with having no money. Some with having children, some with having no children etc. Everybody has a trial.

[hello1]

i hate reading parts of page that are away from most recent posts.. getting absorbed into them i feel like respoinding and they come out irrelevant to the recent posts but.. the ship analogy.. what the hell is that? we drive the world like we drive a ship.. it should have been who designed the ship.. to which i woluld have replied who designed god (and all your defintions of god points to a designer)

 

f around post for now casue im mad i read far away from recent posts..

[Dawood]

nobody designed God, God is the designer. nothing else has the ability to create.

 

“And your God is One God; there is no true god besides Him. He is the Most Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy. Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allâh sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed Ayât (proofs, evidences, signs, etc.) for people of understanding.

[sooratul-Baqarah 2:163-164]

 

 

 

So use the creation as a proof for (the Greatness of) the Creator, and do not burden yourself with what is beyond your understanding.�

[Dawood]

Allah:

 

from the perfection of His Power and the implementation of His Will, Desire and Decree is that anything that He Wishes to do, He does and there is none to prevent Him or protest. He has no assistant or supporter in anything that He does, rather when He Wills a thing to be He merely says, "Be! And it is." Despite the fact that He does what He Wills, His Will acts in accordance to His Wisdom and Praise. He is described with Perfect Ability and Power, and with the implementation of His Will and He is described with complete and all-encompassing Wisdom.

 

He is described with the Attribute of The Master and Owner. These are Attributes of Grandeur, Majesty, Omnipotence and Regulation of the affairs of creation. The One Who directs all of the affairs to do with creation, command and recompense. To Him belongs the whole of Creation, all of it is subservient, owned and in continuous need of Him.

 

As you can see, what ever "human" answer you give, you'll still philosophically lose, because GOD will be "defeated" (in our earthly and human logic) in either way you take. If He can, then He'll lose, and if He can't, then there are things that He can't do, and therefore, it is wrong to say that "He can create anything" as He Says in the Noble Quran When He wishes to Create anything "Be, and it is" (19:35) according to the argument. He obviously can't Create a rock that He can't lift, and He can't create a GOD that is stronger than Him.

 

A question , or paradox of this sort is really disrespectful to God and his true omnipotence. With a question like this , we are trying to limit God's capabilities and create doubt. Confusion is the absence of doubt and I don't particularly like to be confused so , Me personally, I reject these type of doubtful things and stick to what is clear and straightforward.

You get all soggy, smelly and nasty when you swim in the murky water.

[!@#$%]

Dawood

 

maturity will not affect my spirituality or views on god

I'm pretty fucking old compared to the average ouncer

and i've been through quite a fucking bit in my lifetime

 

having a critically ill mom for my entire life has been an eye and brain opener, and until you have the experience of a beautiful and treasured loved one having to endure a lifetime of pain, suffering and progressive paralysis, the whole 'god' thing seems simple.

[shape1369]

I wanted to respond to something you said awhile ago Dawood. I forgot to do it until now. You asked if I ever consider the reprocussions of my disbelief. Yes. Every day of my life I think about me dying, and what will happen then. If I am condemning myself to eternity, an amount of time I can't even concieve of, in "hell" or any other manifestation of these religous concepts. I think one general misconceptions about athiests and agnostics is about what it is we concern ourselves with if we do not dedicate ourselves to religion.

 

Like someone else said, I have always gotten the quintessential question of morality from people when they find out I'm athiest. Next is the question "You know your going to hell right?" to which I have always responded "Yup, and I'll see you there." Not just to be a smartass, but to make the point that I probably think about whats gonna happen to me more than most of the people who ask that to me.

 

Not a day goes by that I don't wonder if I have things wrong, If I just haven't seen the light yet. I would love to believe in something like a religion. My life would be much happier if I did, but for as much as I wish to believe in it, I experience nothing to that end. The day I don't question myself is the day I am dead. I'll have my answers then. But until that happens, I'll stick with what I experience and what I can deduce from my own observations of the world.

 

I don't mean to make athiesm seem so morbid and rediculous, but I feel like by showing the harsher side of it, I better answer Dawood's question about my level of skepticism to my own beliefs. It's fucked up to think about if I'm wrong and I never realize it, I may spend eternity licking the shit off a demon's boot, but its even more fucked up to accept that. I say this only in the hopes to show that it is very mentally taxing to risk one's possible eternal life for a mere average of 72.314159 years of our life. For most people I have met that are athiest or agnostic, it is a pretty big mind trip that they go through before they decide what ever it is they believe.

 

Of course, I believe none of this shit will happen. I don't know, but I will some day. I accept that I may be wrong, but until you prove me wrong, I'm right.

 

 

I can't really respond to your dismissal of the omnipotence paradox as we are on completely different wave lengths with that.

 

 

I do have a question for you: What do you see was god's intent in creating us?

[John Birch]

I do have a question for you: What do you see was god's intent in creating us?

 

 

bro, that question is beyond us, so we shouldn't even ask that...

 

 

 

but you make a good point. its funny, but I think atheist types are the most religious in a sense because they do the most thinking about the whole subject of metaphysics. I think religious types clash with atheist types because religion's purpose is to give answers. Science's purpose is to ask questions.

 

Anyway I'm watching this documentary about the hajj. I find it as hilarious and as pathetic as watching people swarm malls and disneyland...

 

 

but to me it seems that if God really existed then belief is irrelevant. For me, I don't believe in anything because truth is a human created concept that we can't fathom nonetheless. So if truth exist, we can't comprehend it and anybody says they do, and you believe then I have the brookln bridge to sell you and some cream to add 10 inches to your manhood, lol...

[gasfacevictm]

we're all monkeys with concsiences. get over it.