War in the middle east and intervention debate

[Kults]

One hit and didn't detonate maybe they're referring to that one.? There's pics of it floating around

 

E: found it

 

 

 

[Kults]

So were not gonna talk about the plane they likely shot down themselves? Theory floating around is that the plane was cleared for takeoff earlier, did not take off until an hour or so after getting clearance, at that point the Iranian air defenses were up and the plane pinged and got shot down. 

 

No proof of any of this but what else could it be? I dont have a clue but the timing is really, really specific. Not like we're gonna see the black box either

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-ukraine-air-crash-canadians-tehran-1.5418610

 

63 Canadians on board were killed. All were Iranian immigrants to Canada but had their citizenships nonetheless. Gonna be interesting what our Gov does, if anything about this.

[Mercer]

 

[Hua Guofang]

Yeah, it looks that way. However unlikely the US would have know what Iran was targeting and been able to emply that specific hangar and where they would have taken that kit to make it even more secure. You can also see out on the tarmac a number of helicopters in place that haven't been moved anywhere to avoid being struck.

 

I have no idea what the facts are but I'd expect that it would have been personnel rather than kit that was secured with the knowledge of an impending strike (kit can be quickly replaced but trained and deployable personnel are much more difficult).

 

No doubt that this was Iran signalling its willingess to de-escalate but save face internally. I wonder if they targeted specific hangars in a message to the US - pure speculation on my part there.

 

I expect a high-profile assassination somewhere in the world over the coming 6 months, carried out by a proxy such as Hezbollah or another Shiite militia. I feel that this was the overt/theatrical response but that the real response will come later with some level of deniability. Basing this solely on what Iran has done in the past, not much else.

[Kults]

I think all that sounds likely

[Hua Guofang]

7 minutes ago, Kults said:

One hit and didn't detonate maybe they're referring to that one.? There's pics of it floating around

 

E: found it

 

 

 

They apparently had a huge failure rate too, around 40% or something.

 

Looking for more on that.

[Kults]

7 minutes ago, Mercer said:

 

Some truth in there

 

Hard to put that cat back in the bag since 9/11. Under War Time which is defined pretty broadly the President can override congress. I don't disagree with the point he's making though

[Hua Guofang]

Rand Paul also had a bit of a spray at the briefing. I don't agree with him on too much but what he said about the failure of 'maximum pressure' is on the money for me.

 

With Iran it has only increased conflict and the DPRK is again moving ahead with nukes. I don't think much could stop DPRK but I think this approach with Iran is seeing a backslide in security and efforts to reign Irain it. It's also directing resources against each other rather than on ISIS et al.

[Hua Guofang]

Random tweet from some one:

 

 

did not foresee meghan markle supplanting iran as the west’s greatest villain in the span of 24 hours

[Hua Guofang]

The whole Qanon thing is in overdrive on the Ukrainian jet:

 

 

 

The plane crash that killed 63 “Canadians” was really undercover clowns getting the fuck out of dodge after Trump threatened their black ops sites. Canada was the middleman in the U1 deal. The Uranium didn’t stay in Russia. It went to Iran (WW3). Trudeau = screwed

 

I think it’s likely that the Iranian regime shot down the plane. Q+ just knew it would happen (Looking Glass). At this point, I’d wager most passengers on that plane were involved (not just the 63 clowns). Do you think normal people could get out at that time? Also Q warned em

 

1. I’m hesitant to believe reports about children and families on board. I’m sure there’s much work being done to muddy the waters. Even the flight manifest may be unreliable. 2. Collateral damage is unavoidable in war. If it weren’t, Q+ would have stopped every mass shooting.

 

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND/COMP WHAT WE ARE CURRENTLY DEALING WITH? PEOPLE ARE DYING. WE ARE UNDER THREAT OF KILL EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY. THOSE WHO YOU TRUST THE MOST ARE THE MOST EVIL. THIS IS NOT A GAME. HUMMANITY IS AT STAKE. - Q drop 1746 For those of you who don’t understand

 

 

 

 

Oh internet, you silly old thing!

 

 

 

[Hua Guofang]

ICE T

 

@FINALLEVEL

 

WAR is not a game people.. Ya don’t respawn.

[abrasivesaint]

I dunno what i’m looking at besides Ice-Ts Twitter 

[Mercer]

11 hours ago, Hua Guofang said:

Rand Paul also had a bit of a spray at the briefing. I don't agree with him on too much but what he said about the failure of 'maximum pressure' is on the money for me.

 

With Iran it has only increased conflict and the DPRK is again moving ahead with nukes. I don't think much could stop DPRK but I think this approach with Iran is seeing a backslide in security and efforts to reign Irain it. It's also directing resources against each other rather than on ISIS et al.

Still like his Rand Paul's dad more than him, he's a real libertarian and has always stood for peace and prosperity. He recently published and article from an Anarcho Capitalist's site called "Gold Goats and Guns" that went into detail why what Trump did by assassinating the general was completely unjustified, and criminal. I wanted to give Trump the benefit of the doubt here as anyone who's even slightly patriotic should when war is discussed, I mean I just assumed it was justified and supported his decision. Then, no justification was pesented outside of he was a bad hombre or whatever bullshit. The article described a "deep state" (pentagon, etc.) & Israeli plot to trick Trump into attacking Iran, then abandoning him to take the blame for it himself 100%. 

 

For anyone interested I've copy pasted it, a great read:

 

Quote

The silence is deafening. The lack of response from U.S. allies around the world to President Trump’s assassination of Major General Qassem Soleimani tells you things have fundamentally changed.

 

Normally when something like this happens the U.S. has all of its allies lined up with statements at the ready. A gaggle of the usual suspects behind lecterns pledging support replete with the requisite hand-wringing and virtue signaling.

 

That didn’t happen this time. Only arm-twisting by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo cajoled a few lukewarm responses from European allies stunned by Trump’s violations of International Law and escalation of hostilities.

 

It’s clear Trump stunned them into silence.

 

Because they know the world is more dangerous today than it was a week ago.

 

Pompeo’s whining that no one believed the White House’s ludicrous talking point that this strike was done to prevent a war rather than start one, betray epic levels of fatuousness.

 

But, make no mistake, Miracle Whip Mike got everything he wanted here.

 

The strategic errors the Trump Administration has piled up over the past twenty months since abandoning the JCPOA have reached a breaking point, especially with Europe.

 

Europe has taken the brunt of Trump’s belligerence with Iran and Russia.

 

Their businesses have suffered. Their energy security is threatened. The neocons have humiliated them and treated them like chattle. And to this point Europe’s leadership has been up to the task playing the part.

 

It’s obvious the Necons’ policy is to leverage Trump’s America Uber Alles mentality to get everything they want to subjugate Russia, China and Iran.

 

Trump’s instincts are the right ones, avoiding open warfare. Substituting economic leverage for tanks in the streets is still war, however.

 

Just because you don’t define it as war doesn’t mean it isn’t war.

 

Trump’s mistakes come from his believing sanctions are legitimate tools of terror, while simultaneously holding that Soleimani’s tools are not.

 

And that can no longer be an excuse to absolve him of the strategic and tactical errors he’s manipulated into by his staff or takes upon himself.

 

Pompeo’s whining about Europe betrays a solipsism and narcissism that reflects Trump’s madness and frustration. No amount of pressure on Iran seems to get the desired results.

 

He sees their attacks on U.S. troops as personal affronts and thinks raising his threats to existential levels will finally make people see he’s serious.

 

Iran knew he was serious three years ago. It didn’t deter them. If anything, their discretion in the face of open hostility only emboldened Trump to go farther.

 

But now he’s just a madman with nukes, being pulled by betrayal, frustration, anger and fear towards making even more dangerous decisions than the ones he’s already made.

 

Because, when you realize that Soleimani was in Baghdad to deliver Iran’s opening terms for a negotiated peace with Saudi Arabia, this attack was a blunder.

 

When you further realize that Soleimani was there at Trump’s behest with Iraqi Prime Minister Mahdi as broker, this attack looks like patently insane.

 

 

Soleimani was in Baghdad to begin the peace process, again, at Trump’s request. He was uniquely positioned within the Iranian government to handle said negotiations because of his position as head of the IRGC Quds Forces.

 

If he brought these terms to the table, the militias and proxies he trained and tacitly commands would take them far more seriously than if they were brought by President Hassan Rouhani. Rouhani represents, to them, the failed diplomacy that led to the current crisis, thinking the U.S. would honor their deals.

 

So, the meeting between Soleimani and the Iraqi Prime Minister would have been a major opportunity for peace.

But as we know, the U.S. is Not Agreement Capable, in the words of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

 

Quote

Remember what both Vladimir Putin and his foreign minister Sergei Lavrov have said about the U.S. It is ‘not agreement capable.’ Any deal made with the U.S. government or military will be broken at the earliest possible opportunity to further its goals.

So, now the question is why did this happen? What’s the rationale here?

 

A New York Times article detailed the situation in the White House in the days leading up to Trump’s decision. It reads like a Pentagon whitewash of its role in creating the atmosphere which led to Soleimani’s death.

 

It paints the picture of a president sinking into madness as the ‘attacks’ on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad unfolded.

It tries to deflect all the blame onto Pompeo and Vice President Mike Pence.

 

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Vice President Mike Pence were two of the most hawkish voices arguing for a response to Iranian aggression, according to administration officials. Mr. Pence’s office helped run herd on meetings and conference calls held by officials in the run-up to the strike.

 

Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and General Milley declined to comment for this article, but General Milley’s spokeswoman, Col. DeDe Halfhill, said, without elaborating, that “some of the characterizations being asserted by other sources are false” and that she would not discuss conversations between General Milley and the president.

 

But the big takeaway from this article isn’t just that the Pentagon is looking to deflect blame from Defense Secretary Mark Esper and CIA Director Gina Haspel onto Trump.

 

The big takeaway from this article is the Pompeo/Pence narrative of Soleimani was imminently primed to attack U.S. diplomatic targets was complete fiction.

 

Unwritten by the Times but lurking between the words is who was really behind this narrative, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It’s clear over the past six months Netanyahu couldn’t accept the idea of peace breaking out around him. He consistently pushed the envelope of Israel’s belligerence into Iraq over the opening of the Iraq/Syria border crossing.

 

Now the Saudis were wavering? This cannot stand. War with Iran must happen.

 

This is the most likely scenario that pushed Trump into this action with Pompeo, Esper and Haspel feeding him a steady diet of, at best, misleading information. Trump then does what Trump does best when the game gets too hard to figure out.

He filps the table.

 

Netanyahu worked so hard to manipulate events and people to get to that point. He needs a win back home to show voters he is the man to bring Israel salvation through the studious application of American exceptionalism.

 

Now, that he’s done so, he is abandoning Trump after pushing him into the pit.

 

 

So, given all of this, is anyone surprised the leadership in Europe isn’t happy here? They were instrumental in getting Iran to the table to agree to the JCPOA, which Israel was livid about.

 

It was in everyone’s interest for the deal to work, especially Iran’s.

 

Iran got sanctions relief and much-needed investment. Its heavy water reactor became a strong source of revenue. Europe got access to cheap Iranian oil and gas through that investment, securing its energy needs.

 

Moreover, with the deal in place, the undoing of the U.S./Israeli/Saudi plan to atomize Syria by Russia, Iran and Hezbollah ended the flow of refugees into Europe and began stabilizing the region.

 

That only happens because of the JCPOA.

 

Trump’s entire foreign policy is based on antagonizing everyone and subjugating them through dollar weaponization and energy dominance. That’s been his modus operandi.

 

He aligned himself with Israeli interests from the outset because 1) he wanted to and 2) it was the path of least resistance for him to stay in power.

 

At every critical juncture of his presidency Trump has knuckled under to the neocons in his office.

The biggest effect of killing Soleimani isn’t Iran’s response or even Iraq’s. Yes, they will impose costs which will change the geopolitical game board. How? We don’t know.

 

What we do know is this big effect; the realization that everyone around the world is thinking, “Are we next?” So far Trump has accepted no limits on who he will attack with sanctions. There is no rule he’s willing to breach.

 

The neocons in the Senate now have the ultimate leverage over him — Pelosi’s sham impeachment. The half-men in the Senate like Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio have been at full mast so long thanks to Trump’s bombing they need to see a doctor.

 

They got him to kill Soleimani, ensuring there will be no peace with Iran.

 

They’ve begun the upward escalation of tensions which likely ends with an airstrike on Iran’s Fordow Nuclear Facility.

 

 

 

 

If you don’t think that’s what that tweet means, then have either your eyes or your reading comprehension checked.

 

Many of Trump’s tweets are nonsense, bluff and bluster to misdirect and/or stir the pot. This has been a clear message he’s sent since the campaign trail.

 

And this attack on Soleimani was the next step in that process. He’s hoping it brings Iran to the bargaining table.

But it won’t.

 

And that’s why this only ends with bombing Fordow.

 

The Israelis and neocons have used Trump’s animus towards Obama and Europe to try to subjugate them as well. It’s not that Europe is praiseworthy or anything. The EU leadership deserves their comeuppance for trying to build an Empire to replace the U.S.

 

But regardless of whether the EU sucks or not, this incident is your point of no return in U.S./European relations. They have no choice but to slowly back away from the insane man in the White House and break bread with the sober one in the Kremlin.

 

Angela Merkel already arranged a meeting with Putin for next week.

 

This has cost the U.S. whatever moral status it has with the rest of the world. It stands alone now.

 

The only deals Trump will get from here on out are ones that don’t matter. He’s set the U.S. squarely on the path to its own destruction as the world realizes the cost of doing business in the dollar just rose immensely.

 

I’ve been looking for that moment where Europe makes the decision to move out of the U.S.’s orbit and into Russia’s. Their silence tells me this was it.

So TLDR, we elected an easily manipulated moron who's just committed a more egregious war crime than Bush did. As time moves on it's going to become clear he fucked himself (and the United States) in a major way.  Even the alt right are distancing themselves from Trump. Makes sense, he's so genetically inferior his sons look like Beavis & Buthead despite being spawned from a model. That's why he's been so silent since then, he knows he's been betrayed.

[Mercer]

Forgot to post source links: Gold Goats & Guns & Ron Paul Institute For Peace and Prosperity

[misteraven]

There’s so much he said, she said flying around... Every time you open a door, you find 5 new doors behind it to form this bottom less rabbit hole of misdirection, lies, deceit and ulterior motives. 
 

The more shit like this I read, the more it seems that most of it is the result of globalization. Ironically, walking your country off and just focusing on you and your own, site as the antithesis to popular opinion. Ironically gets called out as Nationalism. Seems ludicrous to me that one of the common criticisms I hear of Libertarianism is its non interventionist policy, despite the endlessly consistent track record that no matter how good the intention seems in stepping up to intervene on the behalf of whoever... Behind that facade lies all kinds of ulterior motives that end up in decades of consequences. In fact, it’s becoming painfully obvious more and more that the decades of consequences play right into the hands of those ulterior motives, if not straight up being the game plan. 
 

Guess with how unsustainable all this is, eventually it’ll collapse and come full circle to nobody having the capacity to intervene in the affairs of others because they’ll be too busy fighting for their own survival. Sucks, but humans have proven that we just aren’t mature enough as a species, let alone global society to partake in this dream of a world wide utopia. In the USA we can’t even agree on the definition of gender, yet most the nation feels it’s their duty to chime in and meddle in the affairs of everyone else, whether it’s across state lines or the other side of the planet. 
 

Hard not to get depressed about it, since all these leaps in technological process and understanding of the universe has basically led us to a point where we’re more divided as a species than we’ve probably ever been, can’t agree on even the simplest of distinctions like what makes one male and another female or can apply reason, rhetoric and respect to daily conversation. 
 

Sad. 

[misteraven]

Fuckin auto correct. 

[Mercer]

Swear to god, this gun grabbing bag of dicks says some of the dumbest shit sometimes. I just don't see his point, he's either trying to give this Iranian General (that hated us BTW) a post mortem BJ, or wishing we were a stupid ass country that worshipped our generals enough to cause 120 people to die from being trampled at the state funeral. No thanks.

 

 

 

 

[Mercer]

Also, what do you think would happen IF one of our generals got murked by a foreign government. There would be a huge turnout in DC to say the least, and we'd respond with much more than firing off a few duds into the middle of the desert. 

[Kults]

Looks like the early rumors were true... can you believe these putzes 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/plane-crash-us-officials-confident-iran-shot-down-passenger-jet-bound-for-ukraine-today-2020-01-09-live-stream-updates/

[Mercer]

6 minutes ago, Kults said:

Looks like the early rumors were true... can you believe these putzes 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/plane-crash-us-officials-confident-iran-shot-down-passenger-jet-bound-for-ukraine-today-2020-01-09-live-stream-updates/

I could have told you that based on the footage of the plane being on fire as it went down. For a second I was worried it was us.

[Dirty_habiT]

I see his point, the Iranian people somehow "love" their military.  This would be the same thing if we fucked up north korea's military leader..... people would be all crying and shit because they've been brainwashed to think that these "leaders" are good people and they lost someone great.

 

I don't get into that gender shit @misteraven... call me a bigot or whatever.  If you got a dick, you're a dude /nohomo.

[Dirty_habiT]

 

[Kults]

https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313

 

Quote

The Ukrainian flight that crashed just outside the Iranian capital of Tehran was struck by an anti-aircraft missile system, a Pentagon official, a senior U.S. intelligence official and an Iraqi intelligence official told Newsweek. None of the officials was authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

Fucking chodes inflicted more damage on themselves than on their opponent. Well done ... LOL

 

[Hua Guofang]

1 hour ago, Kults said:

https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313

 

Fucking chodes inflicted more damage on themselves than on their opponent. Well done ... LOL

 

Whilst I have to keep in mind that these are the same orgs that were telling us that Iraq having WMD was a slam dunk and that the US has a reason for the world to think that Iran was responsible, I'm still more inclined to believe this explanation than most others, at this point.

 

Well, at least we can tell Tehran to STFU now when they continue to complain about the Iranian passenger jet that was shot down by the US in the 1980s.

[Kults]

2 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Whilst I have to keep in mind that these are the same orgs that were telling us that Iraq having WMD was a slam dunk and that the US has a reason for the world to think that Iran was responsible, I'm still more inclined to believe this explanation than most others, at this point.

 

Well, at least we can tell Tehran to STFU now when they continue to complain about the Iranian passenger jet that was shot down by the US in the 1980s.

Its pretty much confirmed at this point. Not just the US agencies confirming it either. Even bald face liars CNN agree

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/politics/is-iran-ukraine-plane/index.html

 

Quote

Trudeau and Johnson say they have intelligence Iran shot down Ukrainian airliner

Canadian and British intel confirms it

[Hua Guofang]

4 minutes ago, Kults said:

Its pretty much confirmed at this point. Not just the US agencies confirming it either. Even bald face liars CNN agree

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/politics/is-iran-ukraine-plane/index.html

 

Canadian and British intel confirms it

Makes it pretty difficult to think much else happened, at this point. Fucking retards, they'll never admit it though.

 

Had this pop up when I was on the CNN website:

 

[Kults]

3 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Makes it pretty difficult to think much else happened, at this point. Fucking retards, they'll never admit it though.

 

Had this pop up when I was on the CNN website:

 

Can you believe the level of incompetence required to fuck up that hard though? And these clowns think they stood a chance in all out war with the dominant super power?! Fuckin l.o.l. they didnt even last the day without embarrassing themselves 

[Hua Guofang]

Well, they certainly aren't the first to shoot a civilian passenger jet out of the sky. As mentioned up the page, the US shot an Iranian one down by mistake in the Gulf a few decades ago, then there was MH17 and I think the Russian's may have dropped one during the Cold War as well.

 

But given they set the SAMs up near the airport, you reckon they might have been paying extra close attention to that particular issue, right?

 

I'm already groaning in anticipation as to what BS the Iranians are going to come up with to excuse the act. Given the surveillance radar network the Russians have around that region I'd say that they would also have identified a SAM being launched as well.

[Hua Guofang]

Australia joining the party:

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-canada-receive-intelligence-blaming-iran-for-deadly-ukrainian-plane-crash

 

Prime Minister Scott Morrison says Australia has the same intelligence as Canada regarding a plane tragedy in Iran.

[Mercer]