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Hua Guofang

War in the middle east and intervention debate

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11 hours ago, Mercer said:

ISIS is dead, fights been over for a while now.

I missed this the first time around. But hey, it's never to late to point out horse shit when it exists:

 

ISIS inside Syria:

 

ISIS supporters escape camp 13 Oct: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/13/turkey-isis-syria-kurds-045669

"IS not only has sleeper cells in the region, but also had thousands of fighters who were incarcerated in the Kurdish enclave and guarded by YPG/SDF forces": https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/who-gains-from-trumps-sudden-syrian-withdrawal/

Esper said those troops will be stationed in western Iraq where they will continue the fight against ISIS: https://www.vox.com/world/2019/10/20/20923308/us-troops-leaving-syria-fight-isis-iraq-mark-esper

Esper did not rule out the idea that U.S. forces would conduct counterterrorism missions from Iraq into Syria: https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2019/10/20/pentagon-chief-says-american-troops-leaving-syria-for-western-iraq/

" The reality is that ISIS and al Qaeda were enjoying a resurgence even before Trump’s withdrawal and the Turkish invasion—ISIS in eastern Syria and al Qaeda in the west of the country. Now, with the United States headed for the exits, the Kurds battling Turkey, and the Assad regime and its backers focusing on other priorities, no force is left to counter an extremist revival." https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2019-10-16/isis-already-rising-ashes

 

 

ISIS outside of Syria:

 

US airstrike on ISIS base in Libya: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/us/politics/drone-isis-libya.html

ISIS attack in Nigeria, August: https://thedefensepost.com/2019/08/14/nigeria-iswap-images-borno-gubio/

ISIS in Indonesia Two weeks back: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/wiranto-attack-and-isis-impact

ISIS in ITaly: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/16/alleged-isis-supporter-accused-of-st-pauls-cathedral-bomb-plot

 

 

etc. etc. etc.....

 

 

 

So I'm keen to hear why you think the fight is over and why ISIS is dead when pretty much everyone else thinks otherwise.

 

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Again, here we go with semantics. Your definition and mine differ.

Facts: the caliph is dead, and ISIS holds no significant territory.

 

Here's a fact warmongers (you) wont ever address:

Our presence there is causing, and has caused way more harm than good.

 

That's why you have to twist the facts now to argue for us to stay. This garbage narrative that we're "the good guys" and we need to stay. Do you suggest we just continuously bomb the region, send in special forces to clear every house/building 1 by 1 until every former ISIS fighter is confirmed dead? Think about how you're defining ISIS not being dead for just one second, and what it would take to achieve your preferred definition.

 

It's amazing, I don't think either one of you would consciously take part in any racism, or xenophobia and I mean that. That's why I find it so strange people like you, and@Fist 666are grasping at any bullshit excuses to continuously blow up brown people over there on a permanent basis. Why do you think people are joining these groups? What would you do if your country was invaded, and military defense was wiped out? Matter of fact, don't answer that, we know your position on civilians taking up arms.

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Hahaha, holy shit, semantics?

 

@MercerISIS is dead, the fight is over.

 

@Everyone else: ISIS is not dead, we will keep fighting them.

 

HA, where have I argued that the US should stay in Syria? And now I want to continuously blow up and kill brown people.

 

All because I pointed out that you were wrong when you said that ISIS is dead and the fight is long over.

 

You sure don't like being called on your bullshit, do you?

 

RIP sane discussion.

 

.

Edited by Hua Guofang
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43 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Hahaha, holy shit, semantics?

 

@MercerISIS is dead, the fight is over.

Yep, you can't make an argument against the very valid point I made because I'm 100% correct. Your only argument is me condensing a complex point into 3 words for the sake of conversation. Semantics.

 

Quote

 

@Everyone else: ISIS is not dead, we will keep fighting them.

It wasn't everyone, it was only you, and@Fist 666who's opinion I have zero respect for. He normally only chimes in if I'm already engaging with 2 people (as usual) who are actually able to articulate an argument. Like that weaker friend in the group who doesn't join the fight until 2 of his boys are already jumping someone. Seriously @Fist 666why do you always lurk, closet hating until I'm engaging someone else to chime in?

 

Quote

HA, where have I argued that the US should stay in Syria? And now I want to continuously blow up and kill brown people.

 

All because I pointed out that you were wrong when you said that ISIS is dead and the fight is long over.

 

You sure don't like being called on your bullshit, do you?

 

RIP sane discussion.

 

.

Again, you have zero to contribute. The pussy ass cop out "where have I argued*, without clarifying your position. Much like @Fist 666the idea of sharing your own opinion is terrifying, because you don't have any coherent opinions of your own. Your thoughts are an abstract mess void of clear vision, or purpose, impossible to put into words. You just like parroting talking points you've seen/heard someplace else to pretend you've got a solid world view. In the end this contributes nothing to the actual conversation (again), it only derails the conversation into semantics arguments, AKA your idea of a "Sane Discussion".

 

I remember what it was like having a world view that was incomplete/inconsistent, and still very abstract, but I always had the balls to actually say what I was thinking even if it wasn't solid yet. You should be more open to real debate, and allowing yourself to be wrong, that's a crucial step towards evolving into a better version of yourself. One day you may gain the confidence to share YOUR opinion for once, instead of copy pasting articles, or finding a quick summary of a complex point to attack it.

Edited by Mercer
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5 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

This is awesome. 

That's what I thought, nothing...

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My personal favorite was "Look, I was in the military buddy, you can't possibly have a valid point on ammunition" 🤣

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If i’m not mistaken ISIS has been launching attacks in Iraq and Syria, and many say they are far from dead. 
 

I’ve read the numbers range from 14,000- 20,000 depending on who you ask and leaving the Kurds to deal with Turkey resulted in thousands of escapees and potential for more, not including camps where their families dwell scattered about the regions that they’re apparently or at least feared to be currently recruiting from.
 

 

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As an ideology, sure it’s still around. As a functional organization for all intents and purposes it’s dead. A few pockets

of insurgents claiming ISIS doesn’t negate Mercers point

 

Should I copy pasta walls of text I likely haven’t even read myself to back my case or Na?

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Either way, since the opening post was my argument being taken completely out of context, I'll re-state my original point for clarification.

 

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE MILITARY FORCES ON THE GROUND IN SYRIA,

 

nor should we have ever dropped a single bomb on any mideast country outside of Saudi Arabia.

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Ya kinda agree. Im more of an interventionist than you are, obviously. But at this point Im willing to concede there's FA to gain by staying there

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Spit and moved from https://forum.12ozprophet.com/topic/86733-the-political-memes-thread-memes-too-spicy-for-channel-zero/page/99/

 

 

-----------

 

Cleaned up this thread so its back on topic... Obviously I'm all for exploring topics and debating individual viewpoints, and no doubt conversations can get heated, but arguing with a wall is a waste of time and if debate degrades into personal attacks, obviously defenses go up and minds close down and for all intents and purposes you're arguing with a wall. 

 

If you seek to inform and express, there's more productive ways to construct counter positions, plant seeds and open eyes.

 

Obviously in the case of the middle east, its a vastly complex situation with conflict that spans millennia. The tribes out there likely don't even remember why they hate each other, its been that many generations. They just know they do and since most are living in conditions of general ignorance, religious zeal and abject poverty, its a clear a freakin powder keg with no true solution or at least none that will be solved anytime soon and unlikely by the USA unless we were to literally turn the region into glass and let it start over a gain in a few hundred thousand years when the radiation dissipates. (Not suggesting this as a solution, but seeing as they've been at war for thousands of years, its unlikely this will be resolved anytime soon).

 

Anyhow, feel free to carry on at https://forum.12ozprophet.com/topic/87938-war-in-the-middle-east-and-intervention-debate/, but if the discussion can't maintain civility I'm going to just lock the thread.

 

-----------

 

Obviously @Mercerand @Hua Guofangknow a lot on the subject and obviously they have differing view points. I agree With a statement Mercer made in regards to definition. Seems a bit crazy, but I see over and over again when people argue that often times, the argument stems from lack of clarity to the specifics of meaning. You have to be on the same page and clarify the specifics in order to fully articulate a view point and I can see how it can quickly degrade if not be outright sabotaged from jump street if there's any confusion of misunderstanding in regards to statements / objectives, etc.

 

Anyhow, carry on but please keep it civil.

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10 minutes ago, Mercer said:

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE MILITARY FORCES ON THE GROUND IN SYRIA,

This I can’t agree with. It’s too late for that now in my opinion, as I’ve stated. 

 

Quote

nor should we have ever dropped a single bomb on any mideast country outside of Saudi Arabia.

This we could potentially agree upon.

Edited by abrasivesaint
Reworded slightly.

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Any evidence that suggests we can successfully function as a stabilizing force over there?

 

Every bit of evidence I see is we have failed at this miserably, over, and over,  at the cost of countless lives lost, permanent injuries, and trillions of dollars.

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Not to sound harsh but seriously, I don't want to fund any more help for these people.

 

 

If it were anyone else besides us, they'd be moved down with machine gun fire.

 

Props to our troops for the restraint.

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I mean, we’ve kept the fight out of the US for the most part and had these groups on the run in the Middle East. The claim that ISIS is defeated is sort of contradictory to the claim that we’ve failed at the objective. 
 

I obviously feel for the lives and limbs soldiers have lost, but again, they chose that path. Whether by being duped into that belief by war propaganda or what they’d deem an informed decision, they still chose. I’ve always hated the war, but support the troops (mostly.) 

 

Growing up there was nothing more i wanted to be than a Marine, or potentially a Navy Seal. Getting into punk music at 12-13 and politics at 14-15 changed all of that. I refused to sign up after the War on Terror kicked off. 

Edited by abrasivesaint
Grammar spelling all that shit

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3 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Not to sound harsh but seriously, I don't want to fund any more help for these people.

 

 

If it were anyone else besides us, they'd be moved down with machine gun fire.

 

Props to our troops for the restraint.

Come on, that’s like judging the vast amount of rational Americans based on what you see portrayed by the media because of a handful of cunts on Twitter and in the news cycles. 
 

There’s plenty of people there who like the US, and want things to change over there. 

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25 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

I mean, we’ve kept the fight out of the US for the most part ....

for centuries without any "need" for intervention. 

 

A friend of mine that was in the Marines during 911 brought back Bin Laden's book along with a few other amazing war trophies when he returned. Interesting read, was also freaked out by dudes signature. In the book it explained exactly why he thought attacking America was necessary. (I looked up the translation) The main point he had that I could understand, was just a map of the U.S. military bases surrounding what he called "the holy land". He went on to explain with us there interfering in their affairs, Arabs would never be able to oust corrupt regimes (like the House of Saud) and thought that by attacking the U.S. the entire mideast would rally together to oust us. Right about us interfering, but boy was he wrong about what would happen if he attacked us. He fucked the entire region for decades pulling off the attack.

 

Either way, sometimes it's effective to look at things from your opponents perspective, and understand what motivates them instead of just engaging with the symptoms of their motivation. If we leave, the next generation will have much less of a quarrel. As long as we're there, blowing people up, and interfering with their affairs through use of force, we're increasing our threat in the big picture.

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I still think you’re naive to think violence on a massive scale is going to just stop because we leave.


There are Syrians who want a Democratic system. I’ve seen a few reports that “pro-Turkey mercenaries” and “Turkish-backed mercenaries” are murdering civilians, regardless of the “ceasefire.” 

 

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/13/middleeast/syria-turkey-kurdish-politician-intl/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/kurds-say-turkey-is-still-shelling-key-syrian-town-testing-cease-fire-11571488971

 

 

 

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/popular-front/id1364539980?i=1000453983525


“We speak to journalist and filmmaker Khabat Abbas, a local born and raised in Qamishli, NE Syria (or Rojava). She refuses to leave as the Turkish invasion of Rojava gets ever more brutal.

 

Khabat takes us through the last week and a half, explaining what she's seen on the ground as Turkey and its mercenaries try to destroy what the Kurds have built in NE Syria”

 

 

I forget who recommended that podcast, someone around here. 

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Also, centuries ago, shit 100 years ago they couldn't hop on a plane and be here in hours, and vice versa. 
 

I always try to look at things from all perspectives, mine, opponents, whoever. I understand what you're saying about his motives, but what sort of regimes are they replacing those they’re looking to oust with? 
 

One corrupt regime replacing another corrupt regime isn’t a win. It’s just a changing of the corrupt guard. 

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12 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

I still think you’re naive to think violence on a massive scale is going to just stop because we leave.

It won't stop. They've been warring for centuries. It's all they know. Think what @Merceris saying it's not our business and its time to start acting like its not our business.

 

Not our monkey's not our circus. Let them continue on with their bullshit out there and reality is none of this will matter for much longer. We're maybe another decade away from the the internal combustion engine representing the minority of vehicles on the road. Why do you . think the UAE is pouring billions to turn themselves into a tech and tourism destination? Unlikely the USA willk do the right thing and pull out entirely due to all the invested interest from the Military Industrial Complex and big oil. Likewise there's external influence challenging the petro dollar (crypto) and soon demand for oil will shrivel to a fraction of what it once was due to EV's. Between all the technological advanced making existing sources of crude oil viable and the massively decreased demand, it'll be harder to qualify our involvement. With the collapse of the petro dollar, it simply goes away and the military industrial complex will look elsewhere for a new boogeyman most likely. That's assuming the entire dynamic doesn't collapse entirely due to the wildly unsustainable spending and debt and the only check protecting the dollar from hyper inflation (petro dollar), suddenly being a chapter in history.

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?i=1000454242099

 

Listen to the whole thing or start at about 4:40. A former US Special Forces officer who now works for a group called “Free Burma Rangers” goes on about how we betrayed the Kurds, the Kurds are being displaced and all believe regardless of the ceasefire they are going to die because of what has been happening during this “ceasefire.” 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/19/erdogan-threatens-to-crush-the-heads-of-kurdish-fighters-refusing-to-withdraw

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14 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

One corrupt regime replacing another corrupt regime isn’t a win. It’s just a changing of the corrupt guard. 

Its not about stamping out corruption. Its about installing our own puppet so the corruption is done in our favor.

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1 minute ago, misteraven said:

.. and reality is none of this will matter for much longer. We're maybe another decade away from the the internal combustion engine representing the minority of vehicles on the road. Why do you . think the UAE is pouring billions to turn themselves into a tech and tourism destination? Unlikely the USA willk do the right thing and pull out entirely due to all the invested interest from the Military Industrial Complex and big oil. Likewise there's external influence challenging the petro dollar (crypto) and soon demand for oil will shrivel to a fraction of what it once was due to EV's. Between all the technological advanced making existing sources of crude oil viable and the massively decreased demand, it'll be harder to qualify our involvement. With the collapse of the petro dollar, it simply goes away and the military industrial complex will look elsewhere for a new boogeyman most likely. That's assuming the entire dynamic doesn't collapse entirely due to the wildly unsustainable spending and debt and the only check protecting the dollar from hyper inflation (petro dollar), suddenly being a chapter in history.

I won’t argue this. Once oil is obsolete we’re all but gone. Fully agree with that. 

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