misteraven Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 He’s an idiot. Even the dems are trying to sabotage his run at this point since he’s working against them with all the outrageous anti gun talk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) The sound bite at the beginning of this always made me laugh. I’ve tried to find it's origins but have never had any luck. edit: fuck, seems you need to play the song from the actual Spotify app to catch the sound bite. Edited October 19, 2019 by abrasivesaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_habiT Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 You guys would puke if you saw how many people are still driving around Austin Tx with Beto stickers on their cars. It's like they don't care about backing a loser. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 On 11/11/2019 at 8:20 PM, Dirty_habiT said: It's like they don't care about backing a loser. Name a candidate that wouldn't apply to (current president included)... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 21 minutes ago, Joker said: Name a candidate that wouldn't apply to (current president included)... Here we go lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I'm definitely too uninformed to speak about this, so I'll just ask a dumb question that I'm sure will be shot down with links, graphs, and statistics... As Americans, is needless/senseless gun violence just part of who we are so we need to get over it and get used to it? Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb it (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? I'm not anti-gun, just posing a question to people who are more informed than I am. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Not American so take my opinion on this with a massive grain of salt but I think the problem with violence is cultural and has little if anything to do with actual guns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I'm glad there are barely any guns here, yea people still get shot but rare and generally only between criminals settling scores anyway. People do get stabbed too. I don't actually have a issue with guns but I also wouldn't trust 99% of British people with a gun either, so works out ok here, for me anyway. If I lived in the US though, I'd definitely have a gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 If I had to choose between everyone having a gun or no one having them. I'd opt for no one has them. That would just be my personal preference but then again the UK doesn't have a gun culture like America. I've only ever seen 1 gun in person outside of police/military people carrying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Joker said: I'm definitely too uninformed to speak about this, so I'll just ask a dumb question that I'm sure will be shot down with links, graphs, and statistics... As Americans, is needless/senseless gun violence just part of who we are so we need to get over it and get used to it? Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb it (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? I'm not anti-gun, just posing a question to people who are more informed than I am. I'll take a jab at this... In the entire history of mass shootings, not a single one was conducted by an NRA member. In fact, I'm unable to even find a unjustifiable homicide attributed to an NRA member after searching extensively. Likewise, if we simply look into the idea that guns are the problem, then logic would dictate where there are more guns, there are more gun problems. Yet, there are never any acts of violence, ever, when you look at gun ranges, gun shows, gun trade shows, etc. Likewise, I've posted several times that according to the NICS system, which is a requirement when buying a gun from any commercial dealer, that gun ownership has grown as a massive pace. Not just incremental gun ownership, but exponential. In just 2019 alone, there has been 22,562,956 NICS checks with two months left to report. Not all necessarily conclude in a final purchase transaction, but likewise, it does include transactions where multiple guns were purchased during a single transaction and since this isn't something you submit for fun... This is a fairly accurate representation of US gun sales. So this being said, if the idea is that guns are the problem and more guns equal more problems, than why is gun violence statistically on the decline, year over year for decades, despite the explosive growth in firearms purchases (no pun intended)? Further, why are most mass acts of violence conducted in 'gun free' zones and why are areas of the country with the highest gun ownership per capita, most often (and almost entirely consistently) the places with the least gun crime (or any crime for that matter)? All of this points to a different driving force behind those acts of violence. At the same time, note the consistency with mass shootings... Almost always a young white male on a rampage in a gun free zone. Then note the statistical probability for gun crime in general... Overwhelming a young black male in the inner city and most often one of a handful of key cities that also most often have strict gun control laws. Real issue is that this topic is low hanging fruit for politicians that really have no interest in solving the issue or they'd approach it pragmatically and with an evidence / fact based approach instead of the emotionally driven arguments that dominate that conversation. Reality is that it doesn't even make up the top 10 of what kills Americans prematurely and when compared to what does, gun murder in its entirety is hardly a rounding error by comparison (appx 30,000* versus 2.8 million). *This 30,000 figure also includes justifiable homicide and suicides which represent 66%+ of that full figure. Side note... The NRA is a legal non profit. As such, they're required to post their tax returns. If anyone takes the time to review it, you'll note the over whelming majority of their income are membership dues and not the dark money from the gun industry. In fact, when you consider the NRA round up program where most gun and outdoor companies allow you to round up your purchase and donate it to the NRA, that accounts for the majority of even that small revenue percentage. Sources: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_year_by_state_type.pdf/view 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, Decyferon said: If I had to choose between everyone having a gun or no one having them. I'd opt for no one has them. That would just be my personal preference but then again the UK doesn't have a gun culture like America. Not to spiral the debate, but the UK is also discussing banning knives because your knife violence is growing at such a rapid rate. In fact, London had more murders this last year than New York City. Not that I agree with banning knives, or guns, and absolutely believe the right to personal protection is a natural right that supersedes any and all government, as well as the fact that we also have a right to the best tool available to us for personal defense, but there's no putting that genie back in the bottle and try as we might, you can't legislate away evil. Man has been finding innovative ways to more efficiently inflict violence since before we figured out how to make fire. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 P.S. Here's a link to the NRA's 2017 Tax Return. Kind of busy, but you guys can google and link 2018. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5300476-NRA-2017-990.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, misteraven said: Not to spiral the debate, but the UK is also discussing banning knives because your knife violence is growing at such a rapid rate. In fact, London had more murders this last year than New York City. Not that I agree with banning knives, or guns, and absolutely believe the right to personal protection is a natural right that supersedes any and all government, as well as the fact that we also have a right to the best tool available to us for personal defense, but there's no putting that genie back in the bottle and try as we might, you can't legislate away evil. Man has been finding innovative ways to more efficiently inflict violence since before we figured out how to make fire. Thing is how are you gonna ban a knife? So if you get rid if the hunting/combat knives, there is a still a knife in every kitchen. London is really not representative of the rest of the UK tbf there are just loads of gangs and stabbings. But these are generally all gang related with some innocent people getting caught up in it but it's all socioeconomic, these kids have fuck all to live for and no prospect for the future so easy to get caught up in that life. Like I previously said though, I dont have a problem with guns and would own one in the US. If there was a vote to allow anyone in the UK to have ready access to guns, I would vote against it, again due to my distrust of the general public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I can't see where London had more murders than New York in 2018. NY had a percentage reduction while London increased, however overall NY still had more murders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Decyferon said: Thing is how are you gonna ban a knife? So if you get rid if the hunting/combat knives, there is a still a knife in every kitchen. London is really not representative of the rest of the UK tbf there are just loads of gangs and stabbings. But these are generally all gang related with some innocent people getting caught up in it but it's all socioeconomic, these kids have fuck all to live for and no prospect for the future so easy to get caught up in that life. Like I previously said though, I dont have a problem with guns and would own one in the US. If there was a vote to allow anyone in the UK to have ready access to guns, I would vote against it, again due to my distrust of the general public. Same issue here... Its not about the tool used, its about the intent and the circumstance that drives that intent. Huge disparity with socioeconomics provides a fertile breeding ground for gangs, which in turn leads to gang violence. So only London has that issue because that's where the socioeconomic disparity is concentrated. As that extends outwards, and it most certainly will most of the time, so does that circumstance. Left unchecked, the gangs will push outwards, even if the environment that leads to their birth does not. Get rid of that circumstance and give people a reason to care for themselves and their achievements and you largely eliminate that particular issue. But in the meantime and always, the people that live around all that shit (and not), have a natural right to defend themselves in the best way they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Decyferon said: I can't see where London had more murders than New York in 2018. NY had a percentage reduction while London increased, however overall NY still had more murders. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43610936 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/03/londons-murder-rate-higher-than-new-york-citys/480860002/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 NY had 289 murders in 2018 and london had 135. Murder rate doesnt mean more murders? I don't know I'm just going off the actual numbers. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/ng-interactive/2019/jan/14/london-killings-2018-homicides-capital-highest-decade-murders https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/nyc-sees-record-low-homicides-in-2018-based-on-preliminary-data/5000622/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Yea there are gangs all over the UK, Liverpool has it bad too, we have them here too. London just has it way worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Seeeeeee... I told you there would be links and graphs and shit. LOL! Thanks for the links, but you didn't answer the one question I was hoping you would... Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? I'll assume most gun owners feel that it's not their problem, but if anti-gun advocates want to take your guns because idiots keep killing innocent people and folks are getting tired of this being the norm, wouldn't responsible gun owners be interested in a solution to silence the critics? I get it, you have stats that should silence them, but stats are not helping. And I understand guns aren't even in the top ten of what kills Americans. The number of auto deaths and gun deaths are pretty close from year to year (well, it seems that way. Many graphs to look at from many resources but all are pretty similar so I'm assuming that rings true), but disease is by far the biggest killer of Americans. I get all that. I'm asking do responsible gun owners have thoughts on how to curb the violence around the tool they love. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_habiT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Joker said: Name a candidate that wouldn't apply to (current president included)... I'm saying, if your candidate lost and has already been shown/proven to be a clown, there's no reason to keep flying their bumper sticker on your car unless you are either ignorant to the fact that they're a clown or you just "don't care about backing a loser." Someone who didn't lose was Ted Cruz in regards to Ted Cruz vs. Beto in the Texas elections. I don't condone, endorse, or support this news outlet, but here's a story on it from last year if you're interested in the specifics between the two candidates. "loser" is only in the context of the fact that he "did not win, " in reference to Beto. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_habiT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Joker said: I'm definitely too uninformed to speak about this, so I'll just ask a dumb question that I'm sure will be shot down with links, graphs, and statistics... As Americans, is needless/senseless gun violence just part of who we are so we need to get over it and get used to it? Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb it (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? I'm not anti-gun, just posing a question to people who are more informed than I am. People in Japan just commit the same types of acts with swords/knifes and such. And, in some cases, they do have illegal guns there. I won't get into the gun debate too deeply, but I agree with @Kultsthat this is a cultural thing. We have a society of wimpy people that need attention some of them choose that their cry for help is shooting innocent folks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_habiT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 55 minutes ago, Decyferon said: Thing is how are you gonna ban a knife? The same way you "ban a 3d printed gun" and the same way you keep prisoners from making and using shanks...... you don't. This is where "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" comes from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Joker said: . Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? i'll assume most gun owners feel that it's not their problem, but if anti-gun advocates want to take your guns because idiots keep killing innocent people and folks are getting tired of this being the norm, wouldn't responsible gun owners be interested in a solution to silence the critics? I get it, you have stats that should silence them, but stats are not helping. I'm asking do responsible gun owners have thoughts on how to curb the violence around the tool they love. Proof of gun safe ownership = discount on guns and ammo purchases would be a nice incentive for more people to lock their shit up. I don’t really know too much else that could be done by the individual owners. We aren’t the ones getting guns made in Austria into the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 minute ago, KILZ FILLZ said: Lower the price of gun safes. That curbs gun violence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I edited as you were quoting. @Joker where do these school shooters get their guns? Their parents closet. If the gun is in a locked safe the kid can’t get to them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Joker said: Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? The only real answer to this question is no, there's nothing responsible gun owners (or anyone else for that matter) can do. As much as we'd like there to be, there's just no simple answers. Even if responsible owners always have their weapons effectively locked away, and disabled (which many already do), they can't control the actions of "irresponsible owners". Likewise they can't control the actions of "the wrong hands", or control when a person who is normally "the right hands" randomly becomes the wrong hands. A responsible gun owner can only put an end to a "wrong hands" type of situation should it arise. Even passing a law outright banning the legal ownership of firearms will not effectively "curb" guns getting into the wrong hands. They can't even stop max security prisoners from having cocaine and cellphones. Besides, you can 3D print your own gun now without anyones's permission. More importantly, banning legal ownership does not translate into less murders, it only translates to less murders by firearms, when their accessibility access is squeezed out over time. Looking at places in the world where murder is most common, you'll see that legal firearm ownership by citizens plays an insignificant role overall. Edited November 21, 2019 by Mercer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_habiT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 37 minutes ago, Joker said: Is there nothing responsible gun owners can do that can curb guns getting into the wrong hands (short of saying everyone should own a gun... because everyone shouldn't)? If this could be solved with policy/law then we could also stop the sale/use of illegal drugs. We can't even stop people from using heroin. The real attack I think that can be launched is on what is "socially acceptable" in society..... and I'm not talking about culture being more politically correct in how they talk/act. Raven touched on it by saying you cannot legislate away evil. I've heard it said "you cannot legislate morality." That means that we cannot make anyone "be a good person" if they want to do shit head type activities. This is precisely why no matter what laws we have for guns, it won't stop people from using them for bad purposes. The very best protection you could have against someone with a gun is someone else with a gun that the assailant wasn't prepared to deal with or is unaware of. That's kind of a long shot because if you look at the number of times a legal gun owner stopped a gun wielding criminal from committing crimes, it's probably not that high. I'm ignorant of the numbers so it may be higher than I am giving it credit for. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Do you think better mental health care in America and at least background checks on all gun sales and records kept of when guns change hands would help? I suppose it doesn't matter really. You could stop selling guns in the US now and you already have enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 44 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said: The same way you "ban a 3d printed gun" and the same way you keep prisoners from making and using shanks...... you don't. This is where "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" comes from. I agree, like Raven said, guns in the US is a genie out the bottle. There is no way to ban guns in the US now. Only reason it works here is because we've not had them, so there aren't massive numbers of guns floating around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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