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Weigh In: Social Credit System, Red Flags and how to identify the trouble makers amongst us


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Oh, and yes, they are exporting this to other authoritarian and autocratic countries as well as encouraging borderline authoritarians to take it up, because "look how stable China is, even when the US

Wow I’m a hot mess I meant to post that in the nonsense thread, I’m still trying to decipher what drunk me meant, but I really appreciate the dialogue and people’s perspectives. 

LOL, there is no reward. Reward is you dont get fucked for being bad.

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Weigh in - this only applies to everyone especially all of us, if you have a SMIDDGEN of your stuff out in the sphere you’re GOT....as damn nearly everyone said  it’s inevitable,. Most people on here myself included have gross misgrievence with the economic puppet show but there AINT any  venues to air it out. At the same time though most of us are opportunistic, I personally have been leveraging myself on the plus side for the big picture. Even though I have contradicting ideas with those of the structure I still contribute and benefit indeterminatly and  implementing my suggestions which I feel are common would be very painful and more than likely be a trepanated mess,  so it is what it is.

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So I haven't the time to read through this in total, nor reply properly either, sorry. But a few thoughts straight up.

 

China mixes legitimacy with control/power. As an example, when Xi Jinping came to power he enacted a huge anti-corruption campaign, which was sorely needed. This campaign both reigned in the uncontrolled debauchery that was occurring in the Party from the lower levels to the highest offices (some very big names fell) but it also took out a lot of Xi's competitors. And of course, none of Xi's family or close power base have been impacted/investigated. This Social Credit system is the same, it has positive elements to it, as in, theoretically, punishing those who rip off charities, people who are repeat offenders, corrupt officials in public and private office, etc. Many people in China support this system. But it also, at its foundation, is a tool of control and coercion.

 

The hardest thing for me to accept that it is not based on law, something that should rule all parts of society, but it largely includes values. Of course, on boards such as the Oontz, law is a matter for discussion. However, in China the Party, by way of the constitution and proclamation, is actually above the law - there is even an internal mechanism for punishing impropriety within the Party with its own 'justice' system and detention facilities. And on top of that, apparently the Party gets to decide what national values are and personal values are in China - not the nation nor the person. Put it this way, group sex is illegal in China because it's "against Chinese values".

 

Determining social values in China gives the Party power in at least two ways. Firstly, it allows the Party to set the spiritual foundation of society in China, it sets values that support Communist Party power and rule. Secondly, it allows the Party to look virtuous by being imbued with values that are exclusively Chinese. After the fall of the Soviet Union, China decided that part of the reasn that "great system" collapsed was the infiltration of Western values and ideas (funily enough, Communism and Socialism are Western ideas based on a version of equality and fairness that is at odds with traditional confucianism). So when the Party sets the values they also are placing themselves as the guardians of China and all that has evern been in the Central Kingdom (the guardians at the gate defending against the barbarian horde) and they allow themselves the space in creating an enemy that the country can unite against. Of course, not only does this make an "us against them" mentality and allow everyone to think that the Chinese people are unique in the world and nobody else understands China but it also justifies controlling information flows into the county, the Great Firewall, censorship and a police state to defend against the constant threat from outside that is perpetually trying to destroy China. Soviet Russia was very, very similar.

 

The Social Credit System does a number of things. It creates an Orwelian system that invades all areas of society to allow surveillance and the knowledge within society that you are always being watched. One of the PArty's great tricks is to kill a chicken to scare the monkey - make examples and then let fear dictate everyone's behaviour. Once people know what can happen and that they have no defence they will censor their own behaviour and you can go about making yourself look benevolent and the one that brought stability to a land that was previously chaotic.

 

The system also collects unimaginable amounts of data - biometric, behavioural, financial, geographic, etc. etc. that all goes into training China's AI R&D, which will then be turned back on the population for even greater control. In Xinjiang, where the Han run concentration camps against the Uighurs (well documented, look it up), they are taking blood samples, voice samples, full biometrics, etc. etc. They are getting to know the local population inside and out. The Han population don't push back against it as there is a terrorist threat from the region (partially jihadi and partially pushback against the Han, which have colonised the region. These people are Turkic, they are not "Chinese") and the Party has developed a racist attitude in China against the Uighurs, which allows them to seem justified in persecuting them. What they Han don't realise is that Xinjiang is a testing ground and this will eventually be rolled out across the country. Even if that is not the plan now, future leaderships won't be able to resist the temptation to increase control.

 

So much for a quick response......

 

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Oh, and yes, they are exporting this to other authoritarian and autocratic countries as well as encouraging borderline authoritarians to take it up, because "look how stable China is, even when the US is trying to destabilise it"!

 

There are a number of reasons why they are doing that. Firstly, they make money out of it and allow their industry to become champion in this space. Secondly, proliferating China's style of governance makes the world safer for China..., or more accurately, makes the world safer for the Communist Party of China. The fewer countries there are pressuring China against human rights abuses and whatnot the safer Party rule is. It also creates a nascent "Sino-bloc" in the world, similar to the 1st and 2nd world blocs during the Cold War (that's western V Sovietled/socialist bloc. The Third World was the non-Aligned movement (which actually overlapped with both 1st and 2nd and was more anti-colonial than anything else) and it's where the Third World country terminology comes from today as most of those post-colonial countries were poor and under-developed).

 

Lastely, many suspect that China will have a 'look' into the systems that it is exporting, in terms of data capture, which will then increase their ability to commit espionage, develop AI, track their own opponents outside of China, etc. etc.

 

Clearly, this is as bad as it fucking gets. No government should be doing this kind of shit, least of all an authoritarian autocratic single party state.

Edited by Hua Guofang
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  • 4 weeks later...

So a whole lot happening in relation to this topic since this thread was first kicked off. 

 

Hong Kong thread is bumping and the situation over there is struggling to stay containing. Would seem to me that this topic is now more relevant than ever and there's quite a bit more context to the discussion, as well as more evidence coming to light of just how insidious the efforts are to control people.

 

Shit is a mess, but maybe 12oz braintrust can continue to solve the worlds problems.

 

@Mercer- handing the baton over to you now.

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Also, going to push some attention over to a similar topic...

Weigh In: Individual privacy and freedom versus collective *safety and security*

 

Though this quickly twists and turns down thew rabbit hole to a lot of others as well, including... (Might have to start merging some of these.

2nd ammendment being justified by 2020 candidates

Politics and Guns - Presidential Debate

THIS IS AMERICA. SANDY HOOK BACK TO SCHOOL PSA

Social experiment : 🔫

Mass Public Shootings

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On that note, would seem with all the attention going towards politics, we're about due for another mass shooting.

 

Kind of a joke and hoping it doesn't happen, but prove me wrong. They seem to always pop up at just the right time to swiftly and completely change the direction of the social conversation.

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10 minutes ago, misteraven said:

Man, I saw that. @misteraven

 

I had a chance to go to Ares Arms and slept. Now I have a "paperweight" I need to do the hard way. Have a buddy with plans of opening a machine shop. Biding my time. 

 

Everytime I think of it i kick myself for missing the Ares boat... I'm glad the guy behind it is catching a break event though the long term result is not good. 

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I guess im thinking of a different one. This story still fits in with the orwellian Babylon system theme we got going on here tho. 

 

***

 

Karras said they had their polymer lower receivers locked in a closet ready to turn over to the ATF since Wednesday. He was more concerned about the federal agents taking lists of his customers’ information.

 

“If anybody is a criminal organization that should be investigated, I think they should look in the mirror. We gave them a black eye publicly,” Karras said. “They tried to do an underhanded deal with us. They said, ‘Hey hush, hush. Keep it secret and nobody’s going to know that we took the customer list from you. Nobody’s going to know we took this from you.’”

 

The investigation has some customers nervous about their right to bear arms.

 

“I’m on that list, and I’m waiting for the knock on the door to tell me they are here to remove my second amendment rights,” one customer told Fox 5.

 

 

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/17/feds-raid-gun-parts-stores-despite-court-order/amp/

 

Screenshot_20191013-123029.png

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The Chinese Communist Party is the government you always thought the US was:

 

GTCOM claims to collect ‘billions’ of pieces of globally sourced unstructured data. Through just one of its many platforms, focused on traditional and social media, GTCOM claims to gather 10 terabytes of data a day (equivalent to 5 trillion words of plain text) as part of its ‘cross-language big data’ business, and 2–3 petabytes a year (equivalent to 20 billion photos on Facebook). Anything translated by the company’s translation services is part of the bulk data it collects.

 

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/engineering-global-consent-the-chinese-communist-partys-data-driven-power-expansion/

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Sounds almost like China is evolving itself into the Borg.

 

Wondering what exactly the end game is with all this? No doubt they'd love to control the Eurasian continent, but lot of big hurdles in that. Wondering if in their mind they think they might actually control the world?

 

@Hua Guofangcurious your perspective on it. We've been looking at this from a fairly ground level POV. What does this look like at 20,000 ft? Would seem to me that the Chinese government has near absolute control, over its own country and already has a population of workers beyond what it even needs or can adequately support. It has near absolute influence, if not power in its region and we could argue that perhaps its pretty far along on accomplishing that on a global scale.  But Chinese culture is foreign even in regions like where you live and that difference becomes more notable as it spreads further West. I can't see Western Europe ever fully embracing Chineses culture as its own culture is too old and entrenched as to be taken out of its population, even after generations of trying. Almost worse situation in the USA as far as that goes.

 

So what's the end game here. At what point do we see WW3 kick off where Japan is replaced by Germany and perhaps Russia steps up to replace Germany. Aspirations seem there and all of this seems to be a new dimension in the Cold War, that can only be made possible with all this new tech and rush towards globalization. 

 

Anyone else want to hazard a guess on this?

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@misteravenThe answer your looking for is a few volumes long. Many many people spend their careers on this stuff. If you're interested I can send you names and/or reading material on the matter.

 

China, without  argument, wants to be the regional power that it once was. China once held all other regional powers in suzerainty, under a tribute system. This implied that China was the boss, so you'd not want to do anything against their interests. That's the kind of power that China prefers. It does not want to be a colonial power (any more than it already is - Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Qinghai and some would argue Kunming, Naning and Guangzhou are not Han China, they have been conquered by the Han and drawn into the empire. Unlike the British Commonwealth, the Chinese empire is contiguous). China prefers ambiguity, it prefers to have people make up their own mind that China is the boss, not to straight up tell them (it's how they do censorship in the country as well - don't make the rules too explicit, just make some examples and have people self-censor because they are scared of you).

 

The Chinese call their own country Zhongguo (jong gwor), which translates to Central Kingdom. They see themselves as just as exceptional as many Americans do. They would love to be the country that everyone looks up to - the light on the hill. But at this point, they are more aiming for regional power based on overwheling force (achieved by incremental creep rather than outright war). Everyone can have their own culture, their own governments, economies, etc. etc. As long as everyone consideres China's interests before they do anything. If it goes against Chinese interests, then don't do it. All countries are like that, to a degree, including the US. But the US has brought a lot of good into the world, alongside all the destruction and deceit. It's less likely China will do that as their culture is extremely selfish (some would suggest that's because there is an absence of religion in their culture that often breeds that element of charity, empathy and selflessness).

 

China also wants to make the world safe for its own brand of authoritarianism. The more states there are like it, the less states there will be that challenge the Party due to its values system. That's one of the reasons why they're exporting their brand of tech/governance.

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@Mercer- I'm not sure about that source you've quoted but most of what they say agrees with my knoweldge and the common understanding. The popular refrain is "China will get old before it gets rich". I don't know about some fo the economic and demographic theories (the stuff where his postulates what will occur in the coming decades and what strategies will manage it), but the demographics that he discusses are all 100%. One thing, though, there is a bit of a pension scheme. There's not much to talk about there but my parent inlaws are on it. And that means the population will become increasingly expensive as they age.

 

Another take away is that with the one child policy, people think that China will be less reluctant to fight wars as every soldier killed takes all the children away from a whole family (think the premise to Saving Private Ryan). Secondly, a poisonous living environment, due to the fact that the Party prided economic growth over environmental protection, hits every family harder as they see their only child get sick from the air and the water. This creates greater demands of a government and in a one party system, the tension is ratcheted up as the social contract is "we'll forego any say in decision making as long as you make good decisions". If you're kids are dying from skin and respiratory problems, the govt hasn't made good decisions.....

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