Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Social experiment : ūüĒę


Recommended Posts

American oontzers,

How many of you have had a nearby active shooter event affect one of your days? 

 

A couple yrs ago I was in Vegas during one at Aria where the strip was locked down for a while and we were stuck in some shitty Hooters knock-off called Twin Peaks for hours.(Not the big one where the dude was shooting out of the window at the concert) 

Link to post
Share on other sites
This forum is supported by the 12ozProphet Shop, so go buy a shirt and help support!
This forum is brought to you by the 12ozProphet Shop.
This forum is brought to you by the 12oz Shop.

Well there was the one in Thousand Oaks, but that was more just shock at how many off duty cops were there.

 

Then there was the one where only 4 people were killed but this dude started off by having it be personal and it ended wiith him going after people who were just part of his routine. Like a cashier type deal. That was right around where I live NoHo and you could feel the disbelief.. It's the worst area but shit like that hits people on a different level.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been slightly inconvenienced by protests, terror attacks, natural disasters etc. here in NYC but never a mass shooting. Every shooting I've been effected by/witnessed was regular crime, gang related. A guy took out his own family about a block away last fall helicopters were swarming.

 

Also, came in here looking for tits.

 

1998803659_ScreenShot2019-08-31at6_12_08AM.png.df6425b3670c96e3284b00c37544902f.png

  • Props 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, IOU_ONE said:

When can we count the unlawful deaths caused by the cops as a mass shooting?

According to my calculations unarmed citizens of the world would be better off if we focused on just disarming governments, when they go hard at mass shootings the numbers can go into the hundreds of thousands.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_events_named_massacres#List_of_events_after_World_War_II

 

1902066444_ScreenShot2019-09-01at11_31_34AM.png.bc513e85582ffb4062af1de2890bee40.png

Edited by Mercer
  • Like 2
  • Truth 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Been shot at, seen people get shot, seen people who have been fatally shot, been in the vicinity of a crowded city environment during active gun shots, but I can't say I've been near a mass shooting. 

 

My prediction is eventually this gun shit will come to a head and laws will get super-strict, and those who live by the 2nd amendment will go down guns blazing, literally. There's already been a lot of chatter from middle-USA militia groups who have stated that if Trump doesn't win 2020,  quote - "all bets are off". When asked to further explain - they just repeated the sentiment. I wonder how they'll classify those mass shootings... terrorism or good people on both sides? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Joker said:

Been shot at, seen people get shot, seen people who have been fatally shot, been in the vicinity of a crowded city environment during active gun shots, but I can't say I've been near a mass shooting. 

 

My prediction is eventually this gun shit will come to a head and laws will get super-strict, and those who live by the 2nd amendment will go down guns blazing, literally. There's already been a lot of chatter from middle-USA militia groups who have stated that if Trump doesn't win 2020,  quote - "all bets are off". When asked to further explain - they just repeated the sentiment. I wonder how they'll classify those mass shootings... terrorism or good people on both sides? 

Yeah, I was alluding to this in the mass shooting thread. This isn't going to go anywhere good, but fact is also that it just wont get that far. We've seen states openly disregard federal law with Marijuana. Believe its now legal in more than a dozen states and several allow recreational usage and commercial distribution. That was an interesting precedent that I've seen referenced in many conversations on the gun topic and there's also several states that have made amendments to state constitutions or other types of legislation that protect 2A, regardless of where the Federal Government goes with it. Some even blatantly stating they'd arrest Federal LEO that came into the state to pursue any of it.

 

My prediction is it will go the same way things went when they outlawed the private ownership of gold in the USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act). Some idiots actually turned in their gold, but most people just hoarded it and kept it hidden. Reality is it was never enforceable and though they can make some high profile grabs, there's simply no way to go door to door and confiscate it. Considering that now we're talking guns, it's even less likely that it would happen and once a few raids go bad, you'll see this truly boil over. But couple that with the fact that middle America has a culture built on 2A, its logistically impossible. Where I live, I had a cop literally tell me that it was my own responsibility to take care of myself and that's how people in the area live. His job was to mop up the mess and right the report. It's also normal to open carry here and in fact, I regularly carry on my own property because we have so much predator activity.

 

Likewise, its easy for me to understand how many people are absolutely disconnected from this mindset or the reality of it. How in places like NYC or Boston, that they'd think you can make laws and people just have to follow it and that's just how it is regardless of whether its applicable outside those areas or relevant to other lifestyles and realities. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. People will always find ways around laws that restrict them enjoying whatever the outlawed thing is.

 

Personally, I don't think guns will be outlawed, at least not in my lifetime. I think most sensible people know this and are merely asking for a more strict screening process to obtain a gun, or a knife for that matter. There is definitely a lot of folks screaming for zero guns but if that were to ever happen it's a long, long ways off. And, again, it will be a wild show to watch from the stands. 

 

I'm personally not against guns but I want nothing to do with them. With the way our city has grown, and the amount of gun wackos out there multiplying, I realize the situation this puts me and my family in but we've made that choice and we're fine with it. If I'm shot and killed for my wallet I trust you'll seek revenge ūüėČ

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Joker said:

Agreed. People will always find ways around laws that restrict them enjoying whatever the outlawed thing is.

 

Personally, I don't think guns will be outlawed, at least not in my lifetime. I think most sensible people know this and are merely asking for a more strict screening process to obtain a gun, or a knife for that matter. There is definitely a lot of folks screaming for zero guns but if that were to ever happen it's a long, long ways off. And, again, it will be a wild show to watch from the stands. 

 

I'm personally not against guns but I want nothing to do with them. With the way our city has grown, and the amount of gun wackos out there multiplying, I realize the situation this puts me and my family in but we've made that choice and we're fine with it. If I'm shot and killed for my wallet I trust you'll seek revenge ūüėČ

The thing thats crazy is that with the thousands of laws on the books, why anyone would think that more would make any difference? This is the insane thought when it comes to "gun free zones". A person that has already made the decision to go injure / kill as many people as they can, is suddenly going to be held back by a sign stating its "gun free"?!

 

As far as screening, what more can you do beyond what is already done? To buy a gun from a commercial dealer you need an FBI (NICS) background check. To buy a gun privately, most anyone knows that if you don't establish a clear transaction, that you're responsible for what happens with that gun, therefore making it self police in that it costs $10 - $20 to involve a FFL so you can absolve yourself of responsibility. Its so easy and so important, I've literally never seen it not done and all but 1 of my guns were bought privately (I won quite a few).

 

That said, knowing you and knowing you don't back down to confrontation, as well as the depth of your relationship with your wife being pretty obvious, why would you not carry a tool that has a chance to equalize a threat when you acknowledge how many wackos are out there? 

 

I can't help but picture what it must feel like to be in the helpless situation of watching people around you being gunned down indiscriminately, knowing that your only defense is hiding behind other people and using your own life as a shield that at best buys your loved one a couple more moments. That thought is terrifying to me. Playing odds on it not happening works great until it does.

 

So just curious your thoughts on that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, misteraven said:

The thing thats crazy is that with the thousands of laws on the books, why anyone would think that more would make any difference? This is the insane thought when it comes to "gun free zones". A person that has already made the decision to go injure / kill as many people as they can, is suddenly going to be held back by a sign stating its "gun free"?!

 

As far as screening, what more can you do beyond what is already done? To buy a gun from a commercial dealer you need an FBI (NICS) background check. To buy a gun privately, most anyone knows that if you don't establish a clear transaction, that you're responsible for what happens with that gun, therefore making it self police in that it costs $10 - $20 to involve a FFL so you can absolve yourself of responsibility. Its so easy and so important, I've literally never seen it not done and all but 1 of my guns were bought privately (I won quite a few).

 

That said, knowing you and knowing you don't back down to confrontation, as well as the depth of your relationship with your wife being pretty obvious, why would you not carry a tool that has a chance to equalize a threat when you acknowledge how many wackos are out there? 

 

I can't help but picture what it must feel like to be in the helpless situation of watching people around you being gunned down indiscriminately, knowing that your only defense is hiding behind other people and using your own life as a shield that at best buys your loved one a couple more moments. That thought is terrifying to me. Playing odds on it not happening works great until it does.

 

So just curious your thoughts on that.

I agree with you, I was only stating what I think sensible folks are looking for. I think anyone with a brain knows a sign does nothing to stop someone hellbent on causing another person harm. 

 

Please know my knowledge of this subject is very limited, so I hesitated to even reply, but realized that I could learn a thing or two if I ask questions.

 

What exactly does an FBI background check entail? Does it only look for a history of arrests and/or criminal infractions? 

 

Asking you as a gun owner - is there an answer to slowing down the gun violence in the US or is it the new norm so get used to it? Do you feel more trained people with guns is the answer to civilian gun violence? Has there always been a lot of public mass shootings by civilians but because of media we're now in the know more than we were 40 years ago? Those are all sincere questions by the way - you  know me, you know I'm not being an ass - I'm honestly interested in your thoughts. 

 

To answer your question - part of it is my relationship with my family when I was child/teenager and how guns played a role in those relationships - how they were used to amplify threats or as a scare tactic, and part of it is that I don't really like guns, which may stem from the first reason. Again, I've nothing against them or anyone who owns them but I personally don't like them. As a designer and creative, I love to marvel at them, though.

 

I totally understand your point of view, and I know deep down you're absolutely right, but I can't bring myself to it. I know I'm not those people who cared for me as a kid, and I know I have a duty to protect those I love, but I can't put that foot forward. It's almost like I'm scared to get on the rollercoaster for fear that it'll come off the rails... if that makes sense. And even if I could get over that hurdle, my wife is against having them in the house. Years ago a good friend of ours was over (who's carried a gun with him everywhere he goes and has for almost thirty years) and she knew he had a gun in his bag, so she kept looking at the bag all night like a big spider was going to pop out of it. It was a little funny, and kind of jarring. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Joker said:

What exactly does an FBI background check entail? Does it only look for a history of arrests and/or criminal infractions? 

Here's the Wikipedia detail on this subject, but basically its a consolidation of several LEO databases that gets accessed for a check within an FBI regulated background check system. If it results in a hit, then the FBI reaches out to the corresponding agency for additional detail, but usually this results in an application being declined. This is required, at minimum, for any commercial gun purchase. Many states have additional checks that are also required. There is a time limit to a check, due to the system having the potential for abuse where they can hold up an application for an unreasonable amount of time, sort of like they do for other apps like Class2 and Class 3, which often take about 9 months, but can take upwards of well past a year. Not mentioned in the Wikipedia entry, but also plays into it is that under the ACA, doctors can also report into these databases so that your denied based upon a doctors recommendation, which opens up a huge can ow worms, particularly when it comes to veterans. Likewise, there's a lot of stories that have come out about veterans avoiding reporting PTSD as seeking counsel is yet another situation that has resulted in being denied on a NICS check.

 

The bigger issue that is rarely mentioned is the failure of the NICS system in enforcing laws already on the books. For example, the NICS system will frequently uncover a wanted felon, but its rare that there will be any follow up. Also rarely mentioned is that there are sub sections of the Patriot Act and the NDAA that allow a person to be denied, without allowing for appeal as there is no established protocol in place for dealing with false positives in that system. Now many states are implementing red flag laws and there's also debate at the federal level about national red flag legislation that would completely circumvent due process outright, by denying certain rights and liberties based upon someone simply calling in and reporting an individual. Obviously you can see what a slippery slope that is.

 

-------

 

After the prospective buyer completes and signs a Firearms Transaction Record (ATF Form 4473),[4] the FFL contacts the NICS by telephone or Internet. When the background check is initiated three databases are accessed: the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), the Interstate Identification Index (III), and the NICS Index. According to the FBI, checks are usually determined within minutes of initiation. If there is no match in any of the checked databases, the dealer is cleared to proceed with the transfer. Otherwise, the FBI's NICS Section must contact the appropriate judicial and/or law enforcement agencies for more information. Per the Brady Act, the FBI has three business days to make its decision to approve or deny the transfer. If the FFL has not received the decision within that time it may legally proceed anyway.

 

States may implement their own NICS programs. Such states become the point of contact (POC) between their FFL dealers and the NICS. A few partial-POC states run FFL handgun checks, while the FBI runs long gun checks. FFLs in other, non-POC states access the NICS directly through the FBI.

 

Authorized local, state, tribal, and federal agencies can update NICS Index data via the NCIC front end, or by electronic batch files. In addition, the NICS Section receives calls, often in emergency situations, from mental health care providers, police departments, and family members requesting placement of individuals into the NICS Index. Documentation justifying entry into the NICS Index must be available to originating agencies.

 

The ATF has designated some states' firearm possession or carry permits/licenses as exempting that person from the NICS background check requirement since ownership of such permits/licenses require a background check.

  • Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  • Is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  • Is a fugitive from justice;
  • Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
  • Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution;
  • Is illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
  • Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
  • Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced U.S. citizenship;
  • Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner;
  • Has been convicted in any court of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence", a defined term in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)

 

2 hours ago, Joker said:

Asking you as a gun owner - is there an answer to slowing down the gun violence in the US or is it the new norm so get used to it? Do you feel more trained people with guns is the answer to civilian gun violence? Has there always been a lot of public mass shootings by civilians but because of media we're now in the know more than we were 40 years ago? Those are all sincere questions by the way - you  know me, you know I'm not being an ass - I'm honestly interested in your thoughts.

Statistically, the worst gun violence occurred at about the height of the years in which we had a National Assault Weapons Ban. There's been some small up ticks in some years since, but as a whole gun violence is trending down. Especially interesting because gun ownership grown exponentially in the years since. To give you some context, NICS checks don't necessarily equate to a firearm sold, only that a person was serious enough about wanting to purchase, that an application was submitted. It's still a fairly accurate figure when you compare checks to how number of firearms manufactured that are not exported to other countries. The last month on record show that 2,030,661 applications were submitted (July 2019). A massive number, but still slightly lower than the month before which was 2,312,309. Pretty staggering numbers... The total for 2018 was 26,181,936.

 

Link: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/view

 

So when reviewing this chart, the total since NICS was implemented in November of 1998 is 320,524,675 or about as many total people as there are in the entire USA. Considering how ingrained gun ownership is and how it was far more socially accepted back in the first half of the last century, coupled with the fact that it wasn't uncommon for WW2 vets to come home with guns and there were 16 million American soldiers in WW2 alone, we're talking a massive number. I've seen estimates of upwards of 1 billion total guns in the USA, which honestly still seems to be a conservative number, but point I'd like to make is that with gun ownership / availability going up exponentially, if guns were the issue, we'd expect gun violence to increase at a similar rate. Rather the opposite is true according to statistical evidence.

 

But to answer your question, I think mass shootings are absolutely up, despite being statistically insignificant. I have theories as to why, but mostly I think we can all look around and recognize that people are far more wound up today than they were a few years ago and certainly the trend seems to be accelerating. I think when you whip people into a frenzy and then keep stirring the pot as we see day in and day out, whether its politics, global warming, ebola, racism, terrorism or whatever else... Coupled with an increasing feeling of marginalization / alienation and hopelessness, it's easy to understand, if not predictable that shit will start going sideways.

 

Personally I expect this to get far worse in the coming years. 

 

2 hours ago, Joker said:

To answer your question - part of it is my relationship with my family when I was child/teenager and how guns played a role in those relationships - how they were used to amplify threats or as a scare tactic, and part of it is that I don't really like guns, which may stem from the first reason. Again, I've nothing against them or anyone who owns them but I personally don't like them. As a designer and creative, I love to marvel at them, though.

I've met a lot of people with similar stories.

 

2 hours ago, Joker said:

I totally understand your point of view, and I know deep down you're absolutely right, but I can't bring myself to it. I know I'm not those people who cared for me as a kid, and I know I have a duty to protect those I love, but I can't put that foot forward. It's almost like I'm scared to get on the rollercoaster for fear that it'll come off the rails... if that makes sense. And even if I could get over that hurdle, my wife is against having them in the house. Years ago a good friend of ours was over (who's carried a gun with him everywhere he goes and has for almost thirty years) and she knew he had a gun in his bag, so she kept looking at the bag all night like a big spider was going to pop out of it. It was a little funny, and kind of jarring. 

As I wrote above, I've seen a lot of this and I understand where you're coming from. Being honest, it took me a minute to get used to seeing people open carry where I live after so many years in NYC, despite having a lot of experience with firearms and tactics. Likewise, I can also relate to the feeling of a gun being an animate object, similar to a coiled snake, that's just waiting for the right time to rear up and strike. Being honest, I still occasionally double take when I see friends that carry 1911's because its easy to see (and most often carried) in a state called "cocked and locked". This means there is a bullet in the chamber and the hammer is cocked and ready to fire. Mechanically there are two safety and a couple pounds of trigger pull required to do so, but yeah... Likewise, it took a while to get used to the idea of owning / carrying a Glock, where there is no flip safety. The safety on a Glock is the trigger itself, which has a small mechanical mechanism that has to be depressed along with the trigger in order to fire.

 

Anyhow, point I'm making is that your reaction is completely normal. We've been conditioned to think the way you are and the only way to break that barrier down is experience. When you've taken the time to learn about them in a safe and comfortable environment, you begin to realize its simply a tool and like all tools, if you don't handle it with respect, you can hurt yourself. The rules to safely handle any weapon are very simple and if you follow them, its literally impossible to hurt yourself or anyone else.

 

Indeed the engineering on many guns is really amazing. I enjoy them for many reasons, but the main reason is that its the only thing I've ever found that allows me to exist in the moment. The effort and focus that is required to put around on target accurately and safely, especially in a tactical situation, does not allow my brain to process anything else. Sounds weird, but its the closest I've gotten to being able to meditate... To tune out the entire world and bring my focus to bear on one single point in time and space. I find it incredibly relaxing for that reason and incredibly rewarding when I'm able to harness all the moving parts to put a round on target as I've intended.

 

I'd love to take you out sometime. I would certainly respect if after your position was unchanged and you still felt it was not for you, but I've probably got two dozen examples of people that told me precisely the same thing and totally changed their mind (and in many cases really got into it after), once I spent an afternoon with them. Think I've also mentioned elsewhere that there was a time not long ago where I could literally not mention the word in front of my wife. After years in NYC and being a part of that conversation that exists out there where there's simply no good reason for anyone to have a gun, its been amazing to see how in just a couple years she now understands the role a tool like that has. We have a shotgun by the door. I have a couple AR's leaning in different corners of the house and these days, generally always have a pistol on me most of the time. Might seem completely ludicrous to anyone that exists outside my reality, but I happen to live in a place where bears roam freely and can be seen sometimes even in the day. Where mountain lions wander around regularly and where wolves and coyotes scamper through the tree line a few dozen yards away half the evenings when I feed my horses. Would suck to see one of my dogs turn into a snack for one of these predators, but I also have two kids a wife and myself that I'd rather not see become a meal for one of them. Ultimately though, I've come to have a very deep rooted and sincere appreciation for individual freedom and recognize that with it, comes responsibility and accountability. I've been around way too much fucked up shit in my life (as you have) to trust that some stranger, even if available, will be willing to sacrifice themselves for me. I'm not even sure I could bring myself to have the entitled feeling that they owe me that, even if it was the law (which it is not). As such, I feel best knowing that I'm not entirely helpless if I find myself or loved ones in a really fucked up situation.

 

For reference, these are the 4 rules I mentioned. All very simple to understand, learn and follow.

  1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded, always.
  2. Never point a gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
  4. Be sure of your target, what lies in front of it and what lies beyond it.

 

 

1148902462_ScreenShot2019-09-04at2_52_58PM.thumb.png.14829d724c44bef200b05c8fc18226d9.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

√ó
√ó
  • Create New...