osma bin ladin died

[!@#$%]

bigdork, you managed to touch on a buncha shit that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. other things do happen in the world, and just because we have a shitload of domestic problems it doesn't make this irrelevant.

 

you forget that there were at least 3 wars over gas prices, we just had a long and arduous health care debate that the greedy gop won, and our economy is in a slow recovery.

what's distracting is arguing over NPR and planned parenthood.. yknow, basically what the House is doing..

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

This guy wasn't even responsible for 9/11.

 

Was he a "good guy"? No. But the list is endless as to bad guys we support.

 

And how many innocent people died in the pursuit of this man? Was it worth it? Would you have died just to say that America has finally dragged down the boogie man? I doubt it, I sure wouldn't have.

 

Small victory yes, but it's just a matter of time before retaliation is taken, and how big of a price?

 

I don't understand the burial at sea either, not to radicalize moderates? How about leaving their countries and the stopping of air strikes? To me these things have a much more likely chance to radicalizing Muslim moderates than not burying OBL in Muslim fashion. I guess I could be wrong though.

 

The false patriotism behind this is just hilarious to me. I guess I'm just cynical that way.

[..Rolls_Royce..]

THAT^^

[viperface]

I bet we're gonna see invasion in Libya/Syria before Obama's term ends.

All we need is proper aggression. Perhaps Gaddafi shot down the air france plane or someshit, we'll see...

[brothhalynch]

well im glad u guys posted here cuz tha channel zero one is in the wrong stop i was gonna put it there put i realized i goes here

[!@#$%]

^when really major events happen, there are often two threads..

 

the one in ch0 with jokes, gifs, and random commentary

and the one in crossfire, with opinions, debate and thoughtful ruminations

[Uzzi 9mm]

So will he be forever be remembered as the architect of splitting the world into muslim / non-muslim?

[izzyD]

black water

[Fist 666]

really? contractors. your understanding of how shit works is questionable at best.

 

 

this news practically brought tears to my eyes. i've lost good friends, seen pure atrocity, and put my life on the hunt for that bastard.

as to all the conspiracies and politics of war, OEF, and everything else--there are threads for that. i'm just glad he's dead.

 

also

 

 

i lived the first three years of my life in abbotabad. kind of amusing to me.

[DownSyndrome]

Man I was starting to wonder why Pakistan was complaining so much about the CIA operatives on the ground in the recent months, Do you guys think Pakistan knew Osama was hiding out there?

 

The following article was from April 11th 2011:

 

Kimberly Dozier Associated Press

 

 

WASHINGTON—U.S. officials say the CIA is considering greater co-ordination and information sharing with Pakistan’s intelligence agency, following a summit Monday between CIA Director Leon Panetta and the head of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence.

The Pakistanis want the American agency to identify all its employees in Pakistan, as well as reduce its overall agency staff, according to U.S. and Pakistani officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss matters of intelligence. Pakistani officials also want advance notice of CIA drone strikes, and fewer of them.

Early this year a CIA security contractor shot two Pakistanis dead in Lahore, Pakistan. In mid-March, a drone strike hit dozens of civilians, according to Pakistani officials. U.S. officials say those hit were militants.

The U.S. spy agency is considering some of the Pakistani requests but sees others as non-starters, according to one U.S. official briefed on the talks. The Pakistani request for more visibility is being discussed, the official said.

After the meeting between Panetta and the ISI chief, Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, CIA spokesman George Little said, “The CIA-ISI relationship remains on solid footing.”

Prior to the meeting, Pakistani officials said joint counterterrorist operations with the CIA had been on hold, limited to the sharing of information since the incident with the CIA security contractor, although U.S. officials dispute that. The mutual complaints about each other, often played out through the media, reveal a wide gulf in the relationship that one meeting is unlikely to bridge.

U.S. intelligence and military officials believe factions in the Pakistani intelligence agency support Taliban and other militant groups, which are killing U.S. troops just across the border in Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials complain that the CIA has been freelancing on its soil, running dozens of U.S. citizens doing low-level espionage missions in their country. The CIA’s refusal to claim CIA security contractor Raymond Allen Davis as its own in the initial weeks after his arrest fed that belief, Pakistani officials say, further fracturing the trust between the two agencies.

Only after the CIA admitted that Davis, a former Special Forces soldier, was a CIA contractor did the ISI agree to step in and persuade the families of the dead to accept money in lieu of prosecuting Davis, Pakistani officials say, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations.

Since that incident, Pakistani officials say their joint missions to capture terror suspects with CIA officers had slowed, compared to the previous year where the two agencies went on more than 100 joint missions. In one of those raids, in 2010, they captured a high-ranking Taliban member, Mullah Ghani Barader, Pakistani and U.S. officials say.

Pakistani and U.S. officials confirm that a CIA tip led to Pakistan’s capture this year of Indonesian Umar Patek, one of the accused masterminds behind the Bali bombings in 2002.

Pakistan rejected last week a White House report’s conclusion that it was doing too little to stop insurgent movements on its soil, and that it lacked a long-term strategy to stop militancy.

The spy agencies have overcome lows before. During President George W. Bush’s first term, the ISI became enraged after it shared intelligence with the United States, only to learn that the CIA station chief at the time passed that information to the British. The incident caused a serious row, one that threatened the CIA’s relationship with the ISI and deepened levels of distrust between the two sides. At the time Pakistan almost threw the CIA station chief out of the country.

To help repair the most recent rifts, the CIA appointed as new station chief a senior officer who was previously the head of the European Division, one of the most important jobs in the National Clandestine Service, the agency’s spy arm.

 

There's a bunch more articles covering different instances where Pakistan was calling for the CIA to end its operations in Pakistan.

[christo-f]

Yeah, lol @ contractors.....

 

 

 

So will he be forever be remembered as the architect of splitting the world into muslim / non-muslim?

 

Ah, you may want to look up people like Pope Urban II, Pope Eugene III, The Seljuqs, Saladin, Richard the Lionheart and a few others for that crown. This shit is better part of a thousand years old, this is just the latest installment of dumbness.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Man I was starting to wonder why Pakistan was complaining so much about the CIA operatives on the ground in the recent months, Do you guys think Pakistan knew Osama was hiding out there?

 

I for sure think that individuals were protecting him inside of Pakistan, and anywhere else dude layed his head for the last 10 years.

[DjKeNNyKiLoz]

[christo-f]

This guy wasn't even responsible for 9/11.

You're going to have to qualify that statement for it to be credible. For example; ...for 9/11 as it was an inside job; as Khalid Sheikh Mohommad designed it; it was the teletubbies that did it, etc. etc.

 

Was he a "good guy"? No. But the list is endless as to bad guys we support.

Yeah, well we usually end up killing or imprisoning them all int he long-run; Saddam, Noriega, etc...

 

And how many innocent people died in the pursuit of this man? Was it worth it? Would you have died just to say that America has finally dragged down the boogie man? I doubt it, I sure wouldn't have.

Given that we can't turn back time, stop the planes, restructure foreign policy and energy technology, etc., what would you have done with him, ignore him and let him live?

 

Small victory yes, but it's just a matter of time before retaliation is taken, and how big of a price?

His followers are attacking us anyway. To suggest that this will increase scale and tempo is to suggest that they were previously restraining themselves and leaving pre-planned attacks on the shelf increasing their risk of detection. That's not a rational picture. Sure, there may be an attack and forces may attribute it as revenge. However there has been a global insurgency being conducted for a few decades now and the chances are that such an attack would more than likely have been attempted anyway.

 

I don't understand the burial at sea either, not to radicalize moderates? How about leaving their countries and the stopping of air strikes? To me these things have a much more likely chance to radicalizing Muslim moderates than not burying OBL in Muslim fashion. I guess I could be wrong though.

I have trouble working with this line of thought. Not to suggest that it has no validity but more so that it seems terribly Western-centric and doesn't address the fact that the jihadists operate and kill more Arabs/muslims/countrymen than they do Westerners or even more specifically US citizens. To make the claim that simply altering US foreign Policy would be some sort of cure-all or even remove the US from the sites of the Jihadists is to ignore some very fundamental issues concerning the current of global jihadism. Keep in mind that AQ/Jihadists also attack govts/people that are not US allies or puppets.

 

The 'Hoo-aahh' response is ugly and ignorant, I certainly agree with you there.

[lord_casek]

Glad he's dead if true. I hope it's not a political stunt.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

You're going to have to qualify that statement for it to be credible. For example; ...for 9/11 as it was an inside job; as Khalid Sheikh Mohommad designed it; it was the teletubbies that did it, etc. etc.

 

I'm not going to into the debate as to what my opinion is in that area, pretty sure I've explained at least an idea of where I am coming from on that regard though in other threads.

 

 

Yeah, well we usually end up killing or imprisoning them all int he long-run; Saddam, Noriega, etc...

 

I have no problem with the dude being dead, I am just talking about the road that took us there, where we are now and the consequences of all of the actions.

 

Given that we can't turn back time, stop the planes, restructure foreign policy and energy technology, etc., what would you have done with him, ignore him and let him live?

 

No. I couldn't possible plan, or say what I would do exactly. Probably wouldn't have started 2 separate wars, the evaporation of civil rights, and the murder of who knows how many civilians and the deaths of how ever many service men/women that have died in the process.

 

His followers are attacking us anyway. To suggest that this will increase scale and tempo is to suggest that they were previously restraining themselves and leaving pre-planned attacks on the shelf increasing their risk of detection. That's not a rational picture. Sure, there may be an attack and forces may attribute it as revenge. However there has been a global insurgency being conducted for a few decades now and the chances are that such an attack would more than likely have been attempted anyway.

 

You don't think that this inspires? Or it could trigger a specific event from happening that might not have come to fruition? Of course they are attacking us, we occupy their homelands. Until these things change, radicals will be able to preach their agenda, win people over and hold power.

 

 

I have trouble working with this line of thought. Not to suggest that it has no validity but more so that it seems terribly Western-centric and doesn't address the fact that the jihadists operate and kill more Arabs/muslims/countrymen than they do Westerners or even more specifically US citizens. To make the claim that simply altering US foreign Policy would be some sort of cure-all or even remove the US from the sites of the Jihadists is to ignore some very fundamental issues concerning the current of global jihadism. Keep in mind that AQ/Jihadists also attack govts/people that are not US allies or puppets.

 

No. The world isn't perfect and there will never be a point in history where total peace will be achieved. However, to think that are involvement does more good than harm in the manner at least in which we approach it now to me is incorrect.

 

Oh, and the point I was trying to make here was, OBL's body should have been brought back to be seen by the people. Not buried at sea. I'm not 100% with all of the deatils involving the story, but it is just odd to me that you would just dispose of the body before you can show it to the entire world. Perhaps this is me being ignorant and disrespectful, but for the amount of hate that exist's for this man here in the U.S. and probably other places, I'm sure people would have felt better seeing it.

 

The 'Hoo-aahh' response is ugly and ignorant, I certainly agree with you there.

 

Yeah, word.

 

Don't think that I am upset that this guy was killed. I could careless. I'm talking about the possibilities and what I think the reality is now that he has been killed and brought to "justice".

[christo-f]

I'm not going to into the debate as to what my opinion is in that area, pretty sure I've explained at least an idea of where I am coming from on that regard though in other threads.

fair enough.

 

I have no problem with the dude being dead, I am just talking about the road that took us there, where we are now and the consequences of all of the actions.

Yeah, I know what yo mean, but unfortunately when there is no possibility of trust in the jungle the most rational way of creating the best security you can is by being the best at being bad.

 

No. I couldn't possible plan, or say what I would do exactly. Probably wouldn't have started 2 separate wars, the evaporation of civil rights, and the murder of who knows how many civilians and the deaths of how ever many service men/women that have died in the process.

Fair enough. I can definitely say that there was at least one of those wars that I would not have started.

 

You don't think that this inspires? Or it could trigger a specific event from happening that might not have come to fruition? Of course they are attacking us, we occupy their homelands. Until these things change, radicals will be able to preach their agenda, win people over and hold power.

YEs, it definitely increases motivation but there is more to it than that on the tactical side.

 

First, if some one had a plan sitting on the shelf waiting for something like this the attack would have occurred at one time or another as there are numerous triggers for actions; attacks on Libya, KSA troops in Bahrain, STL releasing indictments, etc. etc. If some one is going to have an attack planned to the point that all they have to do is walk out the door and execute it I think it's safe to say they are going to find a reason to carry through with it regardless. Keeping in mind that the planning involves radicalisation, commitment, conceptualisation of the attack, target choice, target surveillance, recruiting accomplices, acquiring weapons, pre-operational surveillance, transportation, etc. etc. pretty hard to get to a point where a shelf attack is ready to roll but the person is still not yet fully committed to carrying it out.

 

Second, if the attack isn't fully conceptualised, planned and with the target fully surveilled (my new word!!) then were are going to see a lot of hastily carried out preparations that will be sloppy and faulty. That will increase the opportunity for security services to identify and intercept the attackers before they execute their attacks.

 

I believe we are already seeing this procedure playing out in places like London for example.

 

 

So yes, an attack may and probably will slip through the net and there will be something that we can point to as 'blowback' of the OBL operation. However if it was hastily arranged the chances are it will be a failed (Richard Reid/Underwear bomber) attack or small and ineffective. IF it is a large attack that was obviously well planned and executed I'd suggest that that attack would have occurred at some point in time given the advanced stages that the attack was already in prior to the OBL operation.

 

 

 

As for occupy their homelands, the US never occupied KSA, it is Saudi's who run the country and fuck other Saudi's over, regardless of where the support comes from. The US never occupied Libya in the 70-80's and Gadhafi was never a Jihadist, he was a revolutionary aligned with socialist forces. The US has never occupied Yemen, the US has never occupied Pakistan and the rulers that have been and are in power were not put there by the US. The US has never occupied Sudan or Mali. The US never occupied Russia but they used countless terrorists and insurgent forces against the US. The US has never occupied Indonesia or Malaysia. The US has never occupied Uzbekistan or Tajikistan however the IMU seems to constantly prepare attacks against US/Western interests.

 

In all these cases except for Libya and Russia the terrorists found in these countries have attacked their own people and government as much if not more than the US/West and in the majority the US has no responsibility in putting their leaders in power.

 

Yes, I agree, the US/West could have a smarter, more compassionate and less greedy foreign policy and that would lessen the threat to a measurable degree. But let's not fool ourselves in to believing that the US is holey and solely to blame for all of this. It's far to complex for such simple answers and the fact that they are killing their own countrymen and govt that are not connected to the West has to show that there is much more to the dynamic and motivations than grievances against US foreign policy and changing those policies will not make the problem go away.

 

Another smaller point for me is that these dictators that the US supports are always their own countrymen, with their own countrymen parliamentarians, bureaucrats, soldiers, police officers, lawyers, etc. So whilst in some cases it shows that their own states can be targets it also shows that the grievances are not generalised across the countries just like we see dissatisfaction with Gadhafi is not generalised across Libya.

 

So I'm not trying to make excuses for US foreign policy as it does have a lot to answer for as does any imperial foreign policy. And I will also agree that there would be strategic and tactical benefits out of alterations to US policy. I just find it waaaaaay too simplistic to believe that these changes would keep the wolf from the door given what I have said above.

 

 

No. The world isn't perfect and there will never be a point in history where total peace will be achieved. However, to think that are involvement does more good than harm in the manner at least in which we approach it now to me is incorrect.

More good than harm is a subjective concept that is pretty difficult to boil down. But I still get what you're saying and to a pretty large degree I think we are on the same page on what we are saying.

 

Oh, and the point I was trying to make here was, OBL's body should have been brought back to be seen by the people. Not buried at sea. I'm not 100% with all of the deatils involving the story, but it is just odd to me that you would just dispose of the body before you can show it to the entire world. Perhaps this is me being ignorant and disrespectful, but for the amount of hate that exist's for this man here in the U.S. and probably other places, I'm sure people would have felt better seeing it.

 

Yeah, nobody has a fucking clue what is going on except the peeps at the top and those holding the stiff. I also get the impression that this is the way they want it. OBL could be fucking anywhere in any kind of state right now...., including in a 5 star suit in Majorca sipping pina coladas for all we know.

 

The last place he is, is in the Arabian fucking Sea, though.....

[!@#$%]

i don't think his assasination/death/murder is going to incite anyone if they weren't already

 

with everything that is going on in the middle east (and in that al qaeda is far behind the ball, if they are even applicable) people are hardly going to rush to avenge him

 

do people honestly think that any plot that wasn't going to happen already is now in the works? to me that is really naive. i'm quite sure that any terrorist who wanted to 'get at us' is well on his way, and the death of bin laden isn't exactly going to light a major fire under anyone's ass.

 

it also funny to me that no one ever really wanted to give these guys real credit for pulling off 9.11, as though they couldn't have done it on their own. what a gross underestimation of their determination.. (sure, maybe ppl looked the other way, but the idea of an 'inside job' is just funny, even to me, and i know all about our foreign policy...) ...and now to see how they've been hamstrung, blowing up buses in london and putting bombs in a guy's underwear.. i think it goes to show how badly 9.11 tapped them out. if they had it in their power, they wouldn't have held back for this.

 

christo-f, i think that's one of the few places we disagree.. since hearing his daughter's statement to pakistan, knowing what ubl is capable of, i do think they killed him and disposed of the body

[christo-f]

Pretty significant source of intelligence to just slot and dump in an ocean.

 

I don't buy that the couriers were capped either. They know where the cut outs are and how they are contacted. Why would you kill that information off?

[ArnoBOSTON]

Now americans jsut gotta watch their asses even more, look out for some HUGE retaliation from Al'Qaeda

[SonmyD]

[100%juice]

to think that someone by that name ever truly existed or was responsible for all of the things which are said.

 

if you are looking for a scapegoat to protect your blindness from threats of daylight shining you have found your cake and eaten it too. enjoy the full feeling of disinformation filling your guts and giving you the same false satisfaction that mcdonalds does..

[!@#$%]

christo, we got the hard drives, that's why. not to mention what tactics that guy would use in interrogations, how'd we ever know what was real?

[funny to me to that the valuable ksm info on this was obtained during regular-ass interrogation]

and why is it hard to believe that these guys just refused to be taken alive?

i know the seals are truly capable, but i doubt ubl would ever allow them to capture him..

 

mangs the conspiracy shit just makes me guffaw.

[Decyferon]

I was reading up on burial rites etc and the only acceptable time to bury a muslim at sea is iif you cannot get to land within the 24hours you have to bury him, so even though KSA wouldnt take him under muslim law they should have buried him, I understand why they didn't but that is something that a lot of muslims are pissed about.

 

Then again he killed so many muslims I don't think they should really be defending his rights and how his body should have been treatd.

 

I was listening to the news and they said America were deciding whether or not to release photos of the body due to their graphic nature and for fear of upsetting the muslim world.

I am sure most moderate/normal muslims would be happy to see his death photo considering he is one of the people responsible for vilifying their faith.

[!@#$%]

yeah, this guy was hardly a righteous keeper of the faith

he probably did more damage to Islam than anyone ever.

[brothhalynch]

leon Panetta said that we only damaged the group not finished them

[cunt sauce]

Call of Duty Legend Status.... 3000 kills, 1 death. Not to shabby.

[lord_casek]

Greenwald has a good article about the b/s coming from the Whitehouse

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden/index.html

[Yot1]

You hadn't try to decipher this, even Binny Bin Laden knew, it was a set up. The habit of the habitually drugged up. The H is like it's place. Infinity. H, aka, Hydrogen. This is the final hackney on the course, yet it has no mane. The vroom is to the tomb. Haberdashers can never sell flesh, but they can cover it. No habeas corpus up until now. Still reading the Bible, yet to see the Habakkuk, or did I. This isn't even me hacking away at this. The hacker, is in my brain. I do it for the hackneyed and those about to get it by the hacksaw. Away with had, death will say. It always, leads to Hades, in the end. Where's my forty mules and a hacienda? Everyones a habitue to this ride we call life, regardless if you like what's running, wait till you get to the intertainment. Mirrors never lie, your teachers will. The Ha, hah, is back. This is going to habituate the masses like confusion at a soon-to-be-closed-school pta meeting. Touch my hackles, and I'll kill you, said the cat. If I'f hadst it, I've had it all. So I keep going. Attachment is even habit forming. Be above the influence. I walk on ice, like jesus walked on water. Look ma', no magick. And Icarus wasn't just some myth, keep collecting your feathers, it really works. The iceman is on the streets, and the product will ice you up. Stay with me, I will stay with I, now you say it 3x repeated. Look up iambic and let me know, wait, we got a DELAY. To slow. This ship is Titanic fast. I know Georgia remembers Iberia. Don't you guys? Nothing like that Iberian Peninsula swims to start your day. WTF!?$ Where do I come up with such drivel. The mountain accepts Ibex, yet even they rarely stray to the top. God, Jesus, Mary, ididem. Get the pHuck out of here. I'm the reddish green ibis they never saw coming. To alertable, yet why. The ice age is over, but not in the mind. Tinker to your iceberg while you can. I see that the iceboat is down, who stole the skates. The icebound love is so apparent, money has overwarped safety. The icebox is, what it is. Even though it pumps warm, it's still cold. The ice skate reappeared when the icebreaker broke the ice, and passed on by. The icecap once covered so much, but it never suited it's stay with the moment. Ice cream in ice cream cones, now that's just lazy. They won't see another like it. The first on the ice fields of the soul. Boom in the tomb, call it Icelandic but RIP isn't taking you to Iceland. I had blue balls, not cause of the girl, it was the ice pack, I fell asleep a lil to long. So wrong, now the ice pick to chisel away the damages. Never jack a jackal, ever.

[da1lyoperations]

Dumped in the sea so nobody could turn his burial place into a place of worship or 'holy land' and allow him to become a martyr among his followers.

I hate conspiracy theories. Well, they're interesting to read but never credible. Think about how many theories come out and there's people believing all of the different ones.

 

People saying the government are behind fake photos when it's just the media publishing emails they receive. People saying Hitler and Osama died on the same day and it's a big government plan.

Lol.

Well, Hitler died at the end of April and he killed himself. I dunno, people eat up these 'coincidences' too much and end up sitting at home with foil on their head thinking the government are after them.

This is a war, it's not too unbelievable that it took since the late 90's to get Osama is it?

Hitlers 'thousand year reich' took 11 years to end.

 

I'm sure we'll see some real pictures/video at some point. Saddam's video came out quickly because it wasn't the US who hung him, there wasn't the level of control they would have had and someone snuck their camera phone in. There is a video, which probably will get leaked. Just wait, I mean, Obama watched it live, the soldiers had cameras. On their helmets I guess.

 

I'm not really responding directly to anyone in here but mostly to the stupid Facebook statuses saying that the government were doing nothing and all of a sudden in one week they found him. It was obviously a much longer operation but they couldn't release anything or how would they find him, if they told the world they knew where he was. He'd be long gone then.

 

"It took years for the compound to be located. Initially, the CIA knew only the nom de guerre of a man believed to be a trusted courier for bin Laden. Four years ago, his true identity was discovered and two years ago the places in Pakistan where he frequented were established.

 

The crucial breakthrough came last August when the compound where the courier lived along with his brother, another courier, was pinpointed and President Barack Obama briefed. The compound was in an affluent area of Abbotabad where many retired Pakistani military officers lived. "

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8487355/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-how-the-deadly-US-raid-unfolded.html