Attackers take over russian school, hold 400 hostages.

[WhiteOx]

Originally posted by nomadawhat

Wow...they screwed this one up. I'm begining to think the russian authorities are not the best in hostage recovery.

RIP.

 

Lets distinguish between the kind of operations that Swat teams and counter terrorism teams undertake in our first world countries and these rebel operations. These are small armies of soldiers, all highly equipped and most likely experienced. It is not like anythign we see in our sountries, dont forget that...

 

frankly these rebels will not surrender AND they operate in such numbers that a decisive assault against them is futile and near-impossible

 

It not some 19 year old gunman holed up in a 7-11

[fermentor666]

Just to add to what WhiteOx said, it is speculated that there were actually up to 1200 hostages. It is fact that the terrorists set-up booby-traps and mines around the gym. It is a fact that the hostages were not allowed food, water, or bathrooms and as you can see from the pictures, most of them were forced to strip from the heat.

 

There is also information coming out that a suicide bomb was set off in the middle of the gym were all the predominantly child hostages were being kept.

 

There is also the news that at least 10 of the killed terrorists were from Arab countries, not Chechnya.

 

There is no way that anyone can defend this aside from the lunatic psychopaths that did this. Using force to convey a message rarely works. Slaughtering children never works.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03...hool/index.html

[coolio]

^^ hell no theyre not from Arab countires, theyre from Chechnya, you probably made that shit up right now to make it seem like arabs are terrorists all the time, and if it was arabs then what were doing in Iraq is legit because Iraqis are arabs, or that what were doing to the Palestinians is legit cause theyre alos an arab country. its Chechnya just like the IRA (irish republican Army) would fight the British.

 

oh and TTBOY knows the deal.

[iloveboxcars]

i bet coolio is sprouting off some more ignorance. Want eternal bliss? click here.

[coolio]

hahaha:heated:

[fermentor666]

Haha, he's on my ignore list now, and I'm not taking him off. BTW coolio, even though I won't be able to read what you wrote, CLICK ON THE FUCKING CNN LINK I PUT IN MY POST! I DID NOT MAKE THAT SHIT UP YOU STUPID UNEDUCATED SHIT.

 

Ah bliss.

[porque]

...the latest report says that there are over 300+ dead most of which were children...and there are still 100's missing, presumably dead and un-identifiable...this is a horrible event...yet most americans have no idea about what happened...

[Drunk Sober]

hey coolio, media from around the world has said that arabs were in on it. got that DUDE?

 

Yo, someone tell fermentor to take me off his 666 list. I aint mad no more because of burritos and fast food! I realy am a nice asshole I swear!

[Guest sober]

Originally posted by iloveboxcars

i bet coolio is sprouting off some more ignorance. Want eternal bliss? click here.

 

HOLY SHIT THANKS MAN...good idea. that guy with his feel sorry for me over the internet gig on every thread he was up in was played. like i give a fuck if my neighbours black or white. you should make that your signature.

[fermentor666]

Originally posted by Drunk Sober

hey coolio, media from around the world has said that arabs were in on it. got that DUDE?

 

Yo, someone tell fermentor to take me off his 666 list. I aint mad no more because of burritos and fast food! I realy am a nice asshole I swear!

 

 

You ain't on my shitlist, don't worry.

[Dr. Dazzle]

Well this was a complete fucking disaster.....

[KaBar2]

I always wonder

 

Whenever something like this hostage thing happens, if it wasn't set up somehow by the government, so they can justify a huge, repressive, state security apparatus and have the population accept it.

 

For instance, the so-called Patriot Act (which I do not like at all) would NEVER have passed Congress without the 9/11 attacks. Never. Only something on the scale of Pearl Harbor or 9/11 could get the American people to accept such a draconian attack upon civil liberties. So the terrorists, while they are not acting in concert with the anti-civil-liberties crowd, they are serving their interests with continuing attacks and threats against the U.S.

 

Whether or not Chechnya should be a country under the influence/control of Russia and the CIS is very much like the question of whether or not Northern Ireland should/should not be under the control/ influence of the UK. This was a good analogy. The ethnicity/religion thing is not too good an argument, unless you intend to argue that a homogenous population has some right to enforce ethnic and racial "purity," which I cannot accept. If Chechnya has some right to do that, then so does Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Uganda, Serbia, etc., etc. Since I do not believe that Bosnia-Herzegovina has any right to ethnic and religious homogenization then I cannot believe that Chechnya does, either. That sort of thing is against human freedom to live wherever one wishes to live. Chechnya had a recent election. The pro-Russian candidate "won." These guys who attacked the school didn't like it, so they feel entitled to kill a shitload of innocent Russian school children.

 

Where is the logic in that? You notice these heroes didn't attack a Russian ARMY BASE, did they? Assholes. If they "came here to die," then they could have accomplished it a lot more efficiently by attacking a Russian military base. They didn't go there to die, they went there to kill a bunch of helpless women and children and try to terrorize the Russian people. I guess they never heard of Stalingrad and the Eastern Front. They better fucking hope the Russian people don't really get pissed off about this whole school attack-- it could make wholesale war on Chechnya much easier to sell to the Russian people. In fact, I predict that the U.S. and Russia will turn out to be big allies in the "war on terror."

[TheoHuxtab|e]

Those Chechens are no joke. I was shocked when I first heard of the terrorist bombings on apartment buildings that happened in Moscow back in '99. And then there were the the movie theater killings in Moscow, the train bombings, the plane bombings, and the assasination of that local Russian leader near Chechnya. I'm surprised with Russia's military arsenal, they've been unable to quel the Chechen terrorists and resisters that are doing this in their own country almost at will.

[ralphy.sj]

thw world is not a peaceful place...it will never be until we take the money and power from the rich....education wins over ignorance

[trackstand]

Originally posted by coolio

well i theres gonna be such a big deal about this, why not make a big deal about the oppression the chechnyans have to live with under the russians? shit, russian lives are more valuable than chechnyan lives, or is it that the way the chechnyans get payback a little too extreme for the world?

 

Palestine forever

 

You are so fucking dumb you make my brain hurt. You obviously know absolutely nothing about politics and world affairs, you are, quite obviously basing your opinions off of what all your "comrades" say. Just to see someone try and justify the MURDER of hundreds of innocent CHILDREN makes me sick. Anti-Flag lyrics hold more validity then anything you have to offer.

[seven.13]

terrorism is impossible to stop. look at the ira or the uvf. the only way to stop terrorism is to lock down the entire earth.

[WhiteOx]

thats really profound

[TURBOCAPSLOK]

Originally posted by anus1

thw world is not a peaceful place...it will never be until we take the money and power from the rich....education wins over ignorance

 

DUDE, QUIT TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS.

[Mr. Peanut]

Originally posted by trackstand

Anti-Flag lyrics hold more validity then anything you have to offer.

drink drank punk :lol:

[Joker]

We, as Americans, will never understand anything of war and politics...

[villain]

Here is part of the Downing Report made sometime in the 1990s that I found on the DOD website. Just thought some of you may find it interesting.

 

It shows that terrorism is not a new threat, and that it was a likely possibility in the post cold war era.

 

It also postulates, in the words of John Kerry, "Fighting a more sensitive war on terror." With more reliance on HUMINT and surgical strikes. Not full scale wars and occupations.

 

If Chechnya wants independence, I say let them have it. What do they have to do with Russia anyways other than being a territory of it for so long?

Not hard to imagine Chechnyian rebels killing innocent children after years of reading about Russian bombing campaigns on civilian targets in Chechnya.

Violence begets violence.

----------------------------------------------

 

PART I: BACKGROUND

 

SECURITY OF U.S. FORCES IN THE POST COLD WAR ENVIRONMENT

 

The Changed Security Environment. For nearly 50 years following the end of World War II, the United States and its allies engaged in a protracted struggle with the former Soviet Union and its client states. This conflict, often manifested in bloody civil wars in which U.S. and Soviet forces participated both directly and in support of proxies, was fought to prevent Communist expansion and to promote democratic ideals and free market economic systems. The specter of nuclear war limited direct confrontation between U.S. and Soviet forces and caused both nations to restrain the hostile actions of allies and friends. This phenomenon created a bipolar world with relatively well defined "rules" of political and military conduct. However, even in this relatively controlled environment, U.S. military forces stationed overseas came under periodic attack from terrorist elements operating both independently and under state sponsorship.

 

In the few short years since the end of the Cold War, the international security environment remains unsettled. The expected peace from the end of the Cold War has not materialized. Regional and intra-state conflict, once suppressed by the influence of the United States and Soviet Union, has occurred frequently in formerly peaceful regions. Peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations, primarily under the auspices of the United Nations, but most recently in Bosnia under the authority of NATO, have increased in number and scope during this period. Other threats to peace have emerged as well. The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and their delivery means in some regions threaten long-term prospects for peace. Terrorism of a more virulent nature has struck at both civilian and military targets to weaken resolve and coerce stronger powers into acceding to the will of the few.

 

In this environment, the strategy of engagement and enlargement has committed the United States to the security of friends and allies throughout the world in an effort to develop a community of nations with shared interests in peace and stability and the economic benefits that accrue from this condition. U.S. forces operating overseas remain a critical component of this strategy. These forces are engaged daily in operations to deter and prevent hostile action against friends and allies and in security assistance activities to provide these nations a self-defense capability over the longer term. Their presence demonstrates U.S. commitment to the security of these friends and allies and grants the United States access to critical facilities needed to defend its vital interests. Executing the national strategy requires the physical presence of U.S. forces in many nations, exposing them to a variety of hostile acts.

 

Threats to U.S. Forces. Even with the downsizing of their armed forces, the United States and its allies retain conventional force dominance across all military dimensions. The inability of enemies to challenge this U.S. and allied military power directly will likely lead to their asymmetric use of force to deter U.S. initiatives, attack forward deployed forces, and attempt to drive a wedge between the United States and its coalition partners. These attacks are intended to weaken U.S. resolve to maintain a force presence in threatened regions and to influence U.S. public and congressional opinion. Asymmetric use of force could include employment of weapons of mass destruction and terrorism. In either case, the target will be U.S. citizens. Creation of casualties, whether from attacks like the one on Khobar Towers or more discrete attacks designed to establish a pattern of insecurity and helplessness, allows an enemy to demonstrate U.S. vulnerabilities at overseas locations and achieve his political aims through indirect means.

 

Terrorism--An Undeclared War Against the United States. Some describe terrorism as "a weapon of the weak," but it is no less a powerful strategy. At least since 1983, certain states have supported terrorism against the United States and its allies. Terrorism provides these nations a force projection capability far beyond their conventional military means.

 

In some cases, terrorist organizations have no direct state affiliation, but operate with impunity across national borders in support of multiple causes. The emergence of Afghan war mujahadin veterans from across the Muslim world has created a loose network of international terrorists, the "terrorist's Internet," whose potential for violence is immense.

 

The DoD defines terrorism as "...the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological." U.S. military members, their families, and facilities have become important, and increasingly frequent, targets over the past 25 years. Terrorist attacks have killed over 300 DoD service members and civilians and injured more than 1,000 during this period, including the attack on Khobar Towers. The losses in property damage total in the millions of dollars. Recent terrorist attacks indicate a tendency toward more lethal devices. The estimated 3,000 to 8,000 pound bomb employed at Khobar Towers represents a continuing escalation of violence in Saudi Arabia. The use of chemicals in the Tokyo subway by the Aum Shinrikyo demonstrated the potential that these weapons could have in the hands of well-financed terrorists.

 

The small group of rogue nations and transnational terrorist organizations, operating outside the norms and conventions of international law, will continue to present a viable threat to U.S. and allied interests. They and their state sponsors have begun an undeclared war on the United States. These terrorists are not criminals in the conventional sense. They must be seen as "soldiers" employing different means of achieving their political and military goals. They wear uniforms we cannot recognize and use tactics that we find repugnant and cowardly. Cells are the military units of terrorists, notoriously difficult to penetrate and attack. Conventional analysis provides few clues to their targets, priorities, and mode of attack.

 

To counter this enemy capability, U.S. armed forces must develop appropriate countermeasures. Combating terrorism must focus on offensive and defensive means to preempt, deter, or thwart terrorist attacks on U.S. servicemen and women, their families, and facilities and mitigate damage when attacks succeed.

 

Future intelligence collection and analysis must provide improved indications and warnings of attack and increased specificity at the tactical level. Because the terrorist has the ability to choose "where, when, and how" he will attack, his actions will always be difficult to predict. He has the advantage of time - time to select his target and the choice of the exact time of attack. Fanatics will be prepared to sacrifice their lives to achieve their goals. Human intelligence (HUMINT) will assume greater importance to the effort than technical intelligence, although they will remain complementary disciplines and cannot succeed in isolation from each other. Precise warning of terrorist attacks depends on HUMINT to identify specific targets and the time and nature of the attack. The United States must invest more time, effort, and resources into developing these crucial sources of information. Moreover, policy restrictions on recruitment of sources may hamper the efforts of national intelligence agencies and must be reexamined.

 

If the United States proves incapable of responding, terrorism will continue to be a threat to the nation.

[THE CORONER]

good article^^

 

i used to have respect for the Chechen Freedom fighters in the same way that i have respect for someone ona losing team but cant help it. they used to only attack military targets, and there is a lot in chechnya, and they would not let any foreigners join in the jiihad. so i had mad respect for that, but now i have lost mostly all of it. its fuckin children for gods sake. but on the other hand, if russia actually wanted the killing ot stop, theyd hand over chechnya like they did all the other Iron Curtain countries which were given their independance, and ill tell you that chechens (because i know a few) are a whole lot diffrent than the russians. for a little history: in the gulags of 1930's 1940s russia, the russians had to build special wings and buildings for the chechens because they would always fight with one another. there has always been bad blood between these two, and if russia would allow chechenya theyre indpepndance, i think a lot of this would stop/ but there is no way i agree with what happened in that school.

[ODS-1]

The russians do atrocious (sp?) shit all the time, but hey two wrongs don't make a right.

[villain]

Sadly, Chechnya is the last place the Russians will withdraw from.

It holds too much strategic value.

"Russia's military presence in the Caspian basin includes the combat forces that are based on taht portion of its territory lying within the region. These forces are assigned to the North Caucasus Military District (M.D.), one of six major military commands in the Russian Federation. At the end of 1999, this command had at its disposal some 80,000 ground troops, divided into two motorized rifle divisions, one airborne division, three motorized rifle brigades, a Spetsnaz (special forces) detachment, an artillery brigade, and a variety of specialized units. Also located within this M.D. is the Fourth Air Army, equipped with some 475 combat planes (mostly MiG-29s, Su-22s, Su-24s, Su-25s, and Su-27s), and a small naval contingent based at Astrakhan on the Caspian itself.

 

Although the Russian military as a whole has suffered substantial reductions in strength since the breakup of the Soviet Union, it is evident that the Russian leadership has attempted to shield the North Caucasus M.D. from the heaviest personnel and equipment cutbacks. This was especially evident in 1999, when Moscow unleashed a ferocious campaign against anti-Russian forces in Chechnya. Besides committing large numbers of ground troops to the campaign, Russian generals employed a great deal of armor, artillery, and airpower to subdue the rebels-levling Grozny and other Chechen communities in the process. The use of all these military assets in the subjugation of Grozny was all the more telling because it represented the first significant political act of Russia's new president, Vladimir V. Putin."- Michael T. Klare, from "Resource Wars"

 

The Caspian Basin is the new oil El Dorado. Strange how all these terrorists come from poverty stricken, yet oil rich nations.

[shaolinmasta]

Originally posted by anus1

thw world is not a peaceful place...it will never be until we take the money and power from the rich....education wins over ignorance

Incorrect, the world seriously will always have problems, why?

 

Because it is human nature to fuck up, to kill things, have fights, steal, etc etc.

 

That's why you have try to look at the beautiful things in life, like falling in love with a girl, listining to some music you really enjoy etc etc.

[villain]

I say we live like the Native Americans.... Well if we could.

I think they did very well.

[KaBar2]

Admirable, but a doomed lifestyle

 

The thing that really spelled the end for the Native American culture was coming into conflict with a much more numerous, technologically advanced culture with a belief in owning land and limiting access to it. I feel ya when you say you'd like to live like the Indians, but they got thrashed in a big way. No thanks.

 

I've often had the same thought, though. I'd like to retreat back into the boondocks and live like a mountain man. Raising your own livestock, it could be done on a culture-wide level (i.e. the Southern Appalachian culture---a cross between the Cherokee and European cultures--no large group of people can exist by hunting any longer) but the level of existance is primative and there are quality of life issues that would deter most people. As soon as commercial logging was introduced into the Appalachians, and then later, coal-mining, it was curtains for the true mountain culture. Today, their biggest problem and greatest joy is Wal-Mart. Does that suck, or what?

 

Hoboing and riding trains is what I did instead.

[THE CORONER]

thats all fuckin bullshit. im sick of people all saying, lets get back to nature, lets get back to nature. it pisses me off

you fuckin hate technology and want to get rid of it?

 

stop talking on the internet.stop driving a car. dont go to a hospital when you get hurt

 

seriously its the dumbest ass thing ive ever heard of. human being will NEVER GO BACK TO THE WAY THINGS were, they wont. so fuckin suck it up, stop whining about how technology sucks as you talk on the internet and get calls on your cell phone and drive your car, or bus, or plane or fuckin anything.

 

seriously enoughs enough. technology is here to stay. and if you wanna go to the mountains have fun, because i guarantee you you wouldnt last for the rest of your life.

 

and you wanna live like indians? good call brah. except, what do we do with the already existing cityscapes, and buildings and roads, and money and people, and hospitals?

 

fuck off with that anti technology bullshit your all frontin, if you actually hated technology you would never talk on here.

 

peeace out

[fermentor666]

Originally posted by THE CORONER

good article^^

 

i used to have respect for the Chechen Freedom fighters in the same way that i have respect for someone ona losing team but cant help it. they used to only attack military targets, and there is a lot in chechnya, and they would not let any foreigners join in the jiihad. so i had mad respect for that, but now i have lost mostly all of it. its fuckin children for gods sake. but on the other hand, if russia actually wanted the killing ot stop, theyd hand over chechnya like they did all the other Iron Curtain countries which were given their independance, and ill tell you that chechens (because i know a few) are a whole lot diffrent than the russians. for a little history: in the gulags of 1930's 1940s russia, the russians had to build special wings and buildings for the chechens because they would always fight with one another. there has always been bad blood between these two, and if russia would allow chechenya theyre indpepndance, i think a lot of this would stop/ but there is no way i agree with what happened in that school.

 

 

How can you have respect for someone on a Jihad? It's a fucking holy war. Like the Crusades, the fucking dark ages except it's 2004.

[Brownbread?]

like villian said Chechnya is too valueable to Russia so there will be no independent Chechnya any time soon. And Chechnians? know this thats why they've been so desperate lately. It seems sick and it is, but when you can't beat a giant you gotta kick him in the nuts. It's just like every other fucked up situation in our fucked up little world where both parties have blood on their hands.

 

Villain whats so special about living like Native Americans? Not to hate on them but did they not enslave and beef with one another like everybody else?