Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mercer said: Neither one of you geniuses have offered any alternative outside of permanent deployment, which is the worst case scenario for the United States since neither Assad, Erdogan, nor the Kurds are a threat to us. You just want to criticize our withdraw because of knee jerk "Orange Man Bad" sentiment, and haven't given this any thought. Name calling just makes it seem like your upset that someone is questioning your opinions. You’re the one that started discussing the content of the meme. I just had a (mostly) counter point of view. I don’t care that it was Trump that pulled the plug, that has nothing to do with my opinion, and don’t try to tell me what MY position is. My comment about being a classic Trump move is because it is a classic Trump/shit head corporate move. “I got mine, now fuck off.” I’m not naive and believe “Orange man bad, orange man must go,” Is going to fix the US’ problems. In fact, i don’t believe in this nonsense impeachment witch hunt. I think the dudes gotta go, but it needs to be done properly. I’ve been “giving this thought” and saying we need to pull back since we first entered after 9/11. My opinions after 9/11 were VERY contrary to damn near EVERY American. The US should have never started this fucking war, but we did, and here we are. We’ve been helping stir the shit pot in the middle east for decades and it finally slapped us in the face on a public level on 9/11. It was a taste of what the rest of the world has to deal with FAR more often than we do. Edit: Like the spoiled rich kids we are, we over reacted, and are dealing with the consequences. We helped make the mess, we made the alliances, we need to be held accountable. Fact is, we’re always going to have permanent deployment. It’s the American way baby, whether it’s Syria or somewhere else. We should be held accountable for jumping from one nation to the next, helping create and perpetuate absolute chaos, and then throwing up the peace sign and saying “y’all have fun now ✌” Edited October 20, 2019 by abrasivesaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 @abrasivesaintI'm waiting fr you to describe a better course of action than us pulling out.... *waits patiently* 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 30 minutes ago, Mercer said: @abrasivesaintI'm waiting fr you to describe a better course of action than us pulling out.... *waits patiently* There’s no easy answer and you just want an easy answer. We stay and help figure this shit out. I’ve said numerous times we helped create and perpetuate this shit storm, we need to help fix it. There has to be a way we can pull troops from active combat in many of the situations and still back the Kurds in some manner. From what i’ve seen it seems many military personnel think we should honor that alliance. Clearly they still want to, and we should figure out how to. Our country racked up the bill and now we can’t pay up, so we're trying to slide out the door without having to do the dishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I’m still looking for Mercer to back up his statement the Kurds would just as soon kill us. *waits patiently* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 There’s no win there and so much of what has been don’t in the USA and abroad by both us and virtually all the power players out there are going to be painful to undue. The whole thing is so far gone that there is no gentle transition unless you’re willing to take generations to unwind it, which to me is just more an excuse to perpetuate a broken system and poor policy than anything else. best analogy I can think of, is to scale to levels you can understand. So consider you’re a single dad and have a home that’s mostly being paid by a trust fund of money that wasn’t earned by you. Your home is falling apart, your job situation is precarious, you’re in real danger of losing all of it, because the installment payments in your trust fund aren’t enough to carry it all and you’ve been steady narrowing against future trust fund payments you believe you’re entitled to, but might not even exist. So on one side, you have your cousin, two times removed, that you barely know anything about asking to move into your garage. You also have your brother, that’s hardly holding it together asking to move onto your couch. Meanwhile, you’re spending your time across town, telling your friend how to live and jumping into fist fights in his front yard cause he doesn’t get along with the neighbors. Clearly dude is in over his head and though his cousin is going to get assed out and maybe his brother... Certainly his friend will need to sort his own shit out His own shit, dude needs to balance his budget, get his house fixed and stabilize the situation before him and his kid end up homeless. Sucks to have to look out for yourself for a few but getting you can’t help other people when you don’t have your own shit together. Best you can do is give them advice, wish them luck and cooperate where it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: There’s no easy answer and you just want an easy answer. No, a realistic one would be nice, like pulling the fuck out of there. 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: We stay and help figure this shit out. There's nothing to figure out, it sucks being a Kurd basically. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. There's nothing we can do short of taking a tremendous loss of capitol/life sticking around playing referee for another 100 years. If this is what you're advocating for, wouldn't out time/efforts be better spent doing this for a people where there's an actual hope for self sustainability? These things work for advanced societies with a high level of education like Germany/Japan post WWII, it's not going to work anywhere in the middle east because the overall culture there is incompatible with having a free society. Our best hope is to find individuals who do want to live free and helping them relocate, not trying to diss everyone, but the reality of the situation is there has never been a free/stable system in the middle east and no amount of bombing/bullets will change that. 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: I’ve said numerous times we helped create and perpetuate this shit storm, we need to help fix it. This is like expecting a rapist to become an effective psychotherapist to help their victims deal with PTSD. We can't "fix it", you have no idea what "fixing it" even means. You're just parroting talking points put together by the military industrial complex, hell bent on perpetual war. Think about it for a second, what could we possibly do for them other than murdering people on their behalf? 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: There has to be a way we can pull troops from active combat in many of the situations and still back the Kurds in some manner. Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Unfortunately the Kurds have nothing to offer, while Turkey on the other hand is a major ally. So we'd be shooting ourselfs in the foot providing weapons, or anything that could be used to fight our shady ass ally. Fact is, we actually need Turkey, and have a long history of cooperation with Turkey. Personally I really dislike Erdogan for multiple reasons, but not enough to warrant killing Turks either by proxy, or directly. 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: From what i’ve seen it seems many military personnel think we should honor that alliance. Clearly they still want to, and we should figure out how to. No shit, you'd have to be an asshole to want the people you've been fighting side by side with to perish, or suffer. Our military personnel would like nothing more than to do something to help people who need it, that's the best thing they can hope for. Unfortunately, that's not how chain of command works. The US military is supposed to defend the United States, and not act as a police force for the entire planet. If anyone really wants to enter the area on their own accord and join the Kurds, I have no problem with it, I just don't want the American taxpayers to pay for it. 1 minute ago, abrasivesaint said: Our country racked up the bill and now we can’t pay up, so we're trying to slide out the door without having to do the dishes. I'm at the table now suggesting we stop ordering more food/drinks in the restaurant, we know we can't pay for it. Seriously, we can't fix this problem for them, nobody can. Why go bankrupt trying to achieve the impossible? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said: I’m still looking for Mercer to back up his statement the Kurds would just as soon kill us. *waits patiently* They're indifferent at best, like most people thousands of miles away. In the unlikely event Iraq, Turkey, Syria, or Iran cease to be a threat to Kurds within their borders, you best believe YPG would take aim at the western infidels occupying their land. There's no mideast culture that consciously aspires to western values. The Kurds have a very strong, tight nit fundamentalist culture, and actively seek "Kurdification" of any non Kurdish cultural group that finds themselves under Kurdish control. This is the only way a minority group under oppression is able to survive as a culture. That's not to say there are no Kurdish individuals that do appreciate western/outside cultures. I'm saying in general if they had a choice, they wouldn't want us, or any other group there occupying their territory. Unfortunately they don't have a choice in the matter and haven't since 1923, so lesser of two evils is their only choice realistically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, misteraven said: best analogy I can think of, is to scale to levels you can understand. So consider you’re a single dad and have a home that’s mostly being paid by a trust fund of money that wasn’t earned by you. Your home is falling apart, your job situation is precarious, you’re in real danger of losing all of it, because the installment payments in your trust fund aren’t enough to carry it all and you’ve been steady narrowing against future trust fund payments you believe you’re entitled to, but might not even exist. So on one side, you have your cousin, two times removed, that you barely know anything about asking to move into your garage. You also have your brother, that’s hardly holding it together asking to move onto your couch. Meanwhile, you’re spending your time across town, telling your friend how to live and jumping into fist fights in his front yard cause he doesn’t get along with the neighbors. Clearly dude is in over his head and though his cousin is going to get assed out and maybe his brother... Certainly his friend will need to sort his own shit out His own shit, dude needs to balance his budget, get his house fixed and stabilize the situation before him and his kid end up homeless. Sucks to have to look out for yourself for a few but getting you can’t help other people when you don’t have your own shit together. Best you can do is give them advice, wish them luck and cooperate where it makes sense. The only issue i’d have with this is we started the fist fight, our friend backed us up, and we bailed when things got sketchy and our friend got jumped as we ran away. From what i’ve seen there’s been sanctions and such that are aiming to prevent any more violence from Turkey, but we should have had these precautions in place before we ran from the fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said: The only issue i’d have with this is we started the fist fight, our friend backed us up, and we bailed when things got sketchy and our friend got jumped as we ran away. From what i’ve seen there’s been sanctions and such that are aiming to prevent any more violence from Turkey, but we should have had these precautions in place before we ran from the fight. ISIS is dead, fights been over for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrasivesaint Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) I meant “jumped” by Turkey. edit PS: i have to do real life shit, i’ll address some parts of your other posts a little later. Edited October 20, 2019 by abrasivesaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Re ISIS... Also, analogies are about as useless a tool as memes for explaining anything complex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misteraven Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Hard to unsee this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I do what I can lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 Had to dip for tappas. One thing I have to hand to@abrasivesaint Taking on@Kults&@Mercer simultaneously in the political memes thread is prop-worthy, and sorely needed if we're all being honest. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kults Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hua Guofang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Mercer said: Neither one of you geniuses have offered any alternative outside of permanent deployment, which is the worst case scenario for the United States since neither Assad, Erdogan, nor the Kurds are a threat to us. You just want to criticize our withdraw because of knee jerk "Orange Man Bad" sentiment, and haven't given this any thought. Goal posts shifted. I didn’t criticize the withdrawal. You said that the entire mess is due to US intervention. I said that is horse shit. Try and stay focused. . Edited October 20, 2019 by Hua Guofang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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