Occupy Wall Street

[shai]

Oh yeah, some other points-

 

a) The city keeps saying there was a murder at Occupy Oakland....thereby conveniently forgetting what other important landmarks are also located at 14th and Broadway (City Hall and 12th Street BART). So as far as I'm concerned it could have happened at the other two places but nah...let's blame the one community/neighborhood that hasn't had a murder for over a month in Oakland. If you've lived here for a while you'll know that going for a week in certain parts of town without someone getting killed is practically unheard of, so we were beating the curve till yesterday.

 

b) Maybe the cops should actually SOLVE this homicide case so they can link it to the camp...oh wait, that's not what they do, since over 60% of the murders in Alameda County go unsolved and most of those occurred in Oakland. Moving right along...

 

c) The other night I went down to say hi to a couple of friends and the city had decided to cut the lights in the plaza for no apparent reason. What this did was make what is becoming an increasingly sketchy scene (sucks to say it but it's true) that much more dangerous....I was smoking a joint with said friends of mine and we got harassed by no less than five people we had never seen before in less than ten minutes. I finally pulled my knife out and left it sitting open on my leg just in case someone decided to try to step it up a notch...not to mention the fact that me and the two other people had at various points been on security detail, and none of us are exactly small dudes (I was the smallest at 6' and 215 lb).

 

d) If they do raid the camp (I've heard rumors it might go down this weekend) I'm not going back downtown just to get gassed and chased around by a bunch of trigger-happy cops I'll never be able to identify.

 

I'm going to keep working with my friends on the protest angle but as time goes on I'm increasingly more pessimistic about what the camp is actually accomplishing....sure, it's housing homeless folks, but we've bent over backwards get them to realize that they CAN do it themselves and they just keep fucking up and asking for more than we have to offer. They don't realize that we're standing between them and the cops coming in again, and the activists are starting to get fed up with dealing with the bullshit because we don't want to have to become the cops.

 

I'm headed back to check on my friends in about two hours...I really hope they're okay and have the sense to take a night off if they need it.

[Soup forgot his password]

Well jean quan's not blaming OWS for the shooting, but does blame OWS for taking the cops attention away from real crime.... Because before OWS cops always responded to crimes in progress. What a dumb ass.

 

Anyway downtowns always pretty sketchy. Mind as well move and join up with sf.

[Mercer]

If anyone is interested this is an article about uk-uncut which is loosely an OWS equivalent based in the UK

Fairly objective look at the strengths of their organization and other recent demonstrations.

 

 

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/11/uk-uncut/

[theprotester]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18042323&title=man-found-dead-in-pioneer-park-occupy-slc-ordered-to-leave-both-camps

[shai]

don't belong[/url] at Occupy.

 

I'm a liberal Libertarian and I haven't heard anything that doesn't completely piss me off...then again I don't take politics too seriously and I tend to keep my views to myself.

[MOOGLE?]

 

good lord thats a lotta white people...

[SWiF407]

^^^ Had that SAME exact thought. I can't help but notice how many caucasians are 'occupying' Orlando, many of them are upper-middle class, too. Actually, it's the rich white Winter Parkers who are making the most noise. I'm down with the cause and down for the effort, but you can't get a couple different colors into your mix? it starts to be a bad look...

[Soup]

don't belong[/url] at Occupy.

 

Elizabeth Schulte doesn't speak for OWS. There's a lot of libertarians involved in OWS. In fact the main focus of this whole thing has been the unfairness of income tax brackets and stimulus packages, which are libertarian ideals. Most libertarians (chicago school of economics) don't want to end the fed and return central banking to congress either. The OWS is not libertarian tho. There are many people who want more government regulation, or at least an investigation into why the current regulatory departments failed so hard. Why did the Canadian and Australian banking systems not feel the pinch during the credit/housing crisis? More regulation.

[Soup]

Sorry, I actually read the article.

 

 

Because you get on my case for not answering questions, when I already have, I'm just going to keep pressing this: Fifth time Im asking you to answer

 

Ok smart guy, if they're political, what's their platform? Are they on the side of big or small government? Rightists? Leftists? Centrists? What officials have they elected? Where are their lobbyists?

[shai]

good lord thats a lotta white people...

 

Poor people don't go to UC Berkeley. That's why I don't hang out there.

 

We decided to let them do their thing without any input on our behalf besides observation and necessary intervention...they've got the numbers, they're just going to have to figure it out on their own.

 

It looks like the Oakland camp is going to be a wrap soon. At this point things are either over or moving to the next level...time will tell, I guess. If it isn't too hot I'll keep things updated here.

[Soup]

Ok, sure. Ive got a few mins.

 

You are conflating issues again. A political movement is not the same as a political party. A movement is much broader in definition and scope. The two can coexist, yet are not conceptually the same and do not necessitate each other in order for either to exist. So, movements can coalesce in formalised institutions such as parties, or lobbying groups, or other indirectly politically engaged social organisational forms. Yet, parties can also form without being underpinned by a movement; on the basis of key figures, interests, or existing institutions. Political institutions generally need a platform, as their formalised nature requires a documented mission statement for the purpose of internal organisation. Yet movements only tend to require a rallying idea, or even a loose aggregate of rallying ideas.

 

As such, as a political movement rather than a formalised institution, the Occupy protests rally around notions of dissatisfaction with varying conceptions of corporatism within the Federal government. I would argue that their international manifestations have been a combination of solidarity and dissatisfaction with local forms of corporatism or general political crony-ism.

 

So to summarise the answer to your question, they do not require a platform, a firm political ideology, or representatives to be considered a political movement. A protest is inherently a political act, and, in this case, the way it is being conducted is via a loose message in the negative sense; we want less of X, as opposed to the positive sense; we want more of X.

 

Yours truly,

 

Smartguy.

 

The tea party is called a political movement. You can still answer the questions about them. Stop avoiding the questions. This is the SIXTH time Im you're being asked to respond.

 

To expedite the process here because you're still not getting it, there are many kinds of protest. Protest is not inherently political. There are social protests, religious protests, media protests, consumer electronic protests, air pollution protests. Politics involves politicians. There are no politicians involved in OWS.

[Soup]

So what you're saying is tea party is political. OWS is social.

 

Thanks.

 

To expedite the process here because you're still not getting it, there are many kinds of protest. Protest is not inherently political. There are social protests, religious protests, media protests, consumer electronic protests, air pollution protests. Politics involves politicians. There are no politicians involved in OWS.

[Soup]

Right, so if there were political actions taken by OWS you'd be able to answer at least one of those questions. Seventh time here.

[Soup]

Um, i dont think you know what gully means. Just like you dont know what protest means. You'd think if protests were inherently political then that would be written in their definition.

 

That wasn't a definition of "political" you posted. You posted the antithesis to all definitions of "political." This rhetoric of "if nothing is political, everything is political." That might sell a lot of dictionaries, but it doesn't support your argument. What does "POLITICAL protest" or "POLITICAL movement" mean if these things are inherently political? Its a rhetorical move. It's semantics.

 

If OWS was political, as in, they decided that the way they would get what they wanted was through legislature, as in THROUGH the political process, they would need to get a foothold in congress by first creating a team of lobbyists to gain support of one or more senators in order to pass anything into law. The other way would be to elect federal or state representatives. The movement then becomes a campaign for their election and to have the bills they have passed into law. OWS has taken no such direction with their protest and has stated numerous times they have no intention of electing such officials.

 

The "tea party movement," has a platform, elected officials, state representatives, has been co-opted by the republicans and can be very easily pointed out on the spectrum of political ideologies. They're very clearly a "political movement" because everything they do is concisely towards manipulating congress. OWS as a group has no political ideologies, no representatives, has no support from any political party, has not campaigned for or against any political legislature, has not lobbied or taken any congressional action in the slightest and remains to show no progression that direction.

 

So tell me, how are they political? Do you even understand the political process or do you rely on dictionaries? If you understand the political process and OWS you should be able to point to at least one political THING they have done.

 

THIS IS THE EIGHTH TIME YOU'VE AVOIDED THE QUESTION.

 

 

Oh and hey check this out: I read the OED definition of the word "political" and protest wasn't even mentioned. So it got me thinking, is political in the definition of protest? http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/protest?region=us

That's SO weird, "political" isnt even in the definition! Maybe I'm looking at the wrong oxford english dictionary. Or maybe austrialians have some crazy political process that does a lot of protesting. See here in america protests ARENT apart of the process. We use this thing called "beurocracy" and when protests within the "beurocracy" break out, the political process actually shuts down. Gosh what a silly term "political protest" is by your logic.

[Soup]

This is getting ridiculous. The point is this: the voices of OWS are not unequivocal and while the media keeps demanding them to be, but that was never OWS's intention. It's just a bunch of people who want to discuss the real problems we face today instead of having them swept under the rug by rich companies lobbying congress and TV through their ad revenue.

[Soup]

Im not about to subscribe to your poetical definition of, "Football, Jesus, and Bees are all political." End of story. Lets make that clear first and foremost, because it would linguistically make differentiating political, economic, social, agricultural, and environmental issues fucking impossible. They are different areas of academic study and that's the end of it. It's also a very distinct rhetorical move to define something as everything. A Rhetorician, if you're not familiar with the term, is for intents of purpose a troll. You dont want to be a troll so lets use words as they're commonly used today.

 

As for your three examples:

 

-A person holding a sign isn't reflective of an entire group of people.

-The port of oakland was occupied to protest against working conditions. That is a social issue. Not political.

-Its a constitutional right to assemble.

 

Now getting back to a working definition of "Political Movement" The Tea Party is a political movement. The entire purpose of the tea party is to garner support of bills and elected officials. There is no other purpose for the tea party. There is no other purpose for a political movement.

 

OWS has more in common with congress than the tea party. It's purpose is to include all groups and all problems in hopes of bringing about consensus within a pluralistic society. Maybe that's why you as an australian have such a hard time accepting this concept. You're all pretty much the same.

 

And another thing since you keep thinking I'm misinformed and poorly educated. I've studied socioeconomics at university. I didn't graduate in it because my field of focus is Architecture but my father graduated in socioeconomics from UC berkeley and has been a banker for 32 years, so I've always overcompensated and read more than him. My family has also been involved in Rebuilding Oakland and has been on TV as sort of their spokesperson for the last 15 years. Everything around OWS and Occupy Oakland is personal for me.

[Decyferon]

man you two can go on for ages!!

 

As far as I am concerned OWS isn't a political movement like the tea party as they have no backing but as the vast majority of the things being protested come down to policies and government and business I would say you would be stretching pretty thin to say they aren't political themselves, so in a way they are a political movement, maybe a political protest more than a movement.

 

OWS might not be unified in the things that they want, but they definitely have political viewpoints they are trying to express.

[MOOGLE?]

Poor people don't go to UC Berkeley. That's why I don't hang out there.

 

We decided to let them do their thing without any input on our behalf besides observation and necessary intervention...they've got the numbers, they're just going to have to figure it out on their own.

 

It looks like the Oakland camp is going to be a wrap soon. At this point things are either over or moving to the next level...time will tell, I guess. If it isn't too hot I'll keep things updated here.

 

is anything going on in san bernardino county you know of?

pretty much all of my friends there dont care or are too busy on the daily grind to notice. plus sifting through information online for that county is time consuming

[Soup]

Ok. That's wonderful man. I'm glad you're doing well in life. This, here, is a different issue though. For the purpose of this conversation I don't really care what you dropped out of, or who your dad is. The problem here is your conceptual knowledge and analytical ability is poor. You present misinformed opinions as fact and then start frothing at the mouth if I call you on any one of a litany of errors. Then, in the process of trying to show me how clever you are, you make 3 more! Its like watching a train wreck. Despite the horror of the situation I cant look away! If you weren't so arrogant I would feel sorry for you.

Im doing great man, but uh I didn't drop out of socioeconomics. It wasn't my major. And the rest of your statement: this is what you do every time you run out of facts and really really want to win the discussion. It's not rocket science why you can't stop yapping for two seconds and just admit you're wrong. Nobody would even fault you for being wrong. You're an australian pretending to understand american politics and economics. Nobody expects you to know these things. Just stick to your shtick of being an anarchist libertarian. That's all it takes to be a pseudo intellectual.

 

Lets count how many times you've resorted to this kind of nonsense:

 

1. When you were giving shit to adam smith. Which confuses the hell out of me because if you're a libertarian I dont know how you dont know who Milton Friedman is, who talks about the significance of adam smith all the time.

2. When you were giving shit to symmetrical accounting of the GDP and said it was socialism.

3. And now. Look at you. You dont even know why you were trying to make the distinction between a political party and a political movement. You've just got a hardon for this banter.

 

Give it up. You know you're wrong. You wouldn't resort to personal attacks if you didn't.

[shai]

is anything going on in san bernardino county you know of?

pretty much all of my friends there dont care or are too busy on the daily grind to notice. plus sifting through information online for that county is time consuming

 

Took thirty seconds to find this-

 

http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_19317803

 

It sounds like they're just getting things off the ground there.

 

The cops served "eviction notices" yesterday here in Oakland....you'd think the city would know that you can't use the cops for service of process, but you'd be wrong. Or maybe I'm wrong...I was a process server for five years, things change but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 

Thus some people are leaving voluntarily but the veterans are moving in, which means it's high time for another demo...a lot of the activists I know seem like they're just going through the motions but when things get nutty again I'm sure it will be go time.

[Soup]

man you two can go on for ages!!

 

As far as I am concerned OWS isn't a political movement like the tea party as they have no backing but as the vast majority of the things being protested come down to policies and government and business I would say you would be stretching pretty thin to say they aren't political themselves, so in a way they are a political movement, maybe a political protest more than a movement.

 

OWS might not be unified in the things that they want, but they definitely have political viewpoints they are trying to express.

 

Exactly. I dont know how more clearly I can state it that this is a headless assembly of people from all different social, political, demographic affiliations. There is no one right set of ideas. It's experimental and to shove it into a category it doesn't belong in, because the reporters find it easier that way, is just wrong. How funny is it that the reporters want to call it a movement and then get frustrated when it doesn't have any similarities to a movement? It's a venue. Just let it be a venue.

[MOOGLE?]

thanks for making me feel lazy as fuck shai...

 

now i remember why ive never liked the sun newspaper though...

[Soup]

So what you're saying here in a couple hundred words is, "Dude quit playing, you know what I mean." No dick head, I don't know. Try explaining it instead of using your go-to, "Dude your whole analytical process don't work, yo."

[Fist 666]

peaceful resistance in portland.

[Decyferon]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/cops-occupy-huge-rio-slum-drug-crackdown-152426576.html

 

Occupy Rio haha

[Fist 666]

anybody in contact with rocinhajj anymore?

[shai]

I read this op/ed piece earlier today...

 

http://oaklandlocal.com/posts/2011/11/my-viewpoint-occupy-oakland-community-voices

 

I love Oakland. It’s my home. But the past two weeks have left me with emotions that I’ve never felt so fluently before. In the current moments, I am sad. My city is in crisis.

 

I am centered in between the Oakland Police Dept and City Hall/ Frank Ogawa Plaza and I can’t escape the ripple effect from Occupy Oakland. Occupy is such an interesting word for me. My grandmother’s country was occupied during World War II and ultimately led her to immigrate to the United States. She used to tell me stories about the military. Her father and brother died in the concentration camps, taken by the people who occupied her country.

 

Occupy Oakland “happened” to us. They just showed up one day and in the beginning everyone thought it was pretty cool. There was general support from neighbors, community members, and even some city council members. I didn’t know what to think. Living in an urban setting, you have to be weary of people and your surroundings. It’s hard to trust a mad group of people you’ve never seen before.

 

As the days went by, the city became aware of complaints or grievances from and about the camp. They sent letters to Occupy Oakland. However, the truth about the camp is that it is a group of individuals within a group of individuals. The plaza was taken over and it became an open park welcome to any one who wanted to come and stay. In the camp, you have transients, homeless, kids who smoke and drink, concerned citizens, people who believe in tactical elements to protests, and yes, some that don’t live within the city. Most of these groups are committed to a peaceful yet powerful protest. But the groups typically only interact with each other in situations involving conflict, leaving out opportunities to really get to know each other. It’s an interesting place where division is felt but not discussed openly.

 

But I would also say that it is an interesting self-sufficient mini-city. In this one park, you have health services, places for prayer, a media center, an art tent, supply tents, food to eat, and hopefully a place to sleep. But, as in any urban city you have you people that are left without city services. Folks who’ve been evicted from their homes. People who have real mental issues (schizophrenia, bipolar, and other complicated diseases). All these people living in one place. A melting pot of realities, ideals, and challenges.

 

The sadness comes from the reaction to this camp from my peers. Reactions from organizations I, as a citizen, am supposed to trust. Organizations I frequently work with through my normal channels of business. The mayor, the police department, the chamber of commerce, the cbd’s, and merchants that I support with my dollars. At the very least, I figured on some level we could all be in the same room with each other and have a grown up conversation. Instead we are pointing fingers, placing blame, and causing a scene while we neglect to ask ourselves if there’s anything we can do to help find a solution.

 

Oakland has its problems. We have so many local government issues that need to be fixed. I am sick of the parking situation. I am angry that our city government knows that federal prisons and jails routinely drop convicts off in downtown Oakland (where I live). I want to know what our city is actually doing about the foreclosure problem that plagues our residents, many whom are unfairly evicted from their homes. I want to know what they are doing to make the banks accountable for empty blighted properties they leave in our neighborhoods. I want us to review our tax structure and for the city to give us a real line item budget numbers (in human readable form) so we can understand where our money is being wasted. I come across people all the time who work for the city who don’t provide the services in which they are obliged to. I’m asking for transparency.

 

This is what I say to you. How powerful and effective would it be for us to get behind some of those problems? How powerful would it be for Occupy Oakland to effectively change our local city government? How powerful could you be as a part of that change?

 

I would ask the Chamber to take a moment and step back. I would say to you that you don’t speak for me when you say “residents”. I have worked with you and I respect you. But I disagree with you in the way that you are addressing the issue at hand. We know this is an urgent situation, but the reality is – this is a complicated issue that is going to take some time to work out. I would say to you - I am not afraid to live in my city. Nor am I afraid to walk Downtown or any where in Frank Ogawa Plaza and yes I still patronize my local businesses. The media’s consistent slant on Oakland feeds on negativity. You are saying to the world that we are afraid of our own city. I ask that you change your language on how you speak about Oakland. I ask that you instead engage the merchants and find ways to pull them together and strategize on new business opportunities. You are better served to this community by providing the resources you specialize in – supporting businesses in Oakland. Use your successes and business related activities to promote attraction, growth, and the collective power of the merchants.

 

To the CBD’s I would say – Shame on you. Your responsibility is to take care of your communities. Organize your merchants. Create safe spaces for dialogue and for relationship building. Put together events that promote your coverage area and the merchants within. The property owners and city funds pay very good money to fund your services. Stop listening to the guy who lives in San Diego and start paying attention to the citizens you serve. They are located right here Downtown, Uptown, and Lake Merritt, Oakland, CA. The letter recently sent from your office to the Mayor, was offensive. The face of our neighborhoods is not what defines us. Use your money and political power to give our neighborhoods what we need. Provide light to dark corridors, help resolve parking issues, organize merchants to strategize on unique neighborhood happenings, provide parklets to much needed urban space. Do everything you can to help merchants and residents define a collective voice.

 

To my City Council members – I ask you to stand up and quell the panic. I ask you to lead us in the direction of finding solutions rather than focus on the removal of the camp. We need you to help us work this out. Don’t stand in line with anyone except the constituents from your neighborhoods. Represent your people at the meetings, represent our needs above any others. Come to your communities and hold listening sessions. People are affected. Ask neighbors to come out and speak about their experiences and what they think about Occupy Oakland. Encourage their voices to be heard along with those of the camp and our peers. Our voice is not being represented.

 

To the Mayor – I am still angry at you. You’ve never apologized to our face what happened the night of 10/25. We deserve explanations on how the discussion for tactics of force were approved, we deserve to know why you got on a plane and left when this happened, and we want you to say to us what you think you are accountable for. The best thing you can do for the city is prevent another violent situation similar to which occurred on 10/25. I implore you – to stand on the side of citizens who live downtown and do not create a hostile situation. I know you are being backed in a corner, but your actions put you there, and this is going to be uncomfortable for awhile.

 

To OPD – I would say I can’t imagine what it’s like to be an Oakland police officer. I grew up in East Oakland and understand your realities. But I would say the division between the police department and the community it serves is clear. I strongly feel that some officers (or all) need to be retrained. Trauma and emotions leave scars deeper than physical wounds and we need to continuously revisit our mission to stay focused. The brutality complaints are very real and we ask you to respond to them.

 

To the Downtown Merchants – I say that if no one comes to your aid, that it is still your duty to come together. You have a powerful voice that is not being accurately represented and you should be heard. I will say to you that a mass appeal to Occupy Oakland would serve as a powerful message. Some are ‘caught up in the hype’ and neglect to take the time to understand their surroundings. Remind them of the major problems in Oakland. The unjust issues stemming from corporate greed and ask them to refocus that energy and help you in your fight against those issues. Ask them to help change the local city government. The majority of occupiers support local merchants and understand how vandalism and violence affects the occupy movement.

 

To everyone I would say that I know we want to go back to “the way life used to be.” Unfortunately, I don’t think we can. This movement is bigger than Oakland. Oakland is the center and our history commits us to activism.

 

I’m not proposing we leave the situation untenable. I am proposing a cooling off period until Dec 5th. We can’t afford another million dollar bad publicity stunt. Thanksgiving is in 2 weeks. The holidays are here. It’s almost time for the Children’s Parade. America’s Cup is coming. There are community members out there actively trying to help the situation but they need time and ultimately YOUR compromise.

 

Let’s pull together and realize Oakland is our common ground.

[Fist 666]

jay z makes occupy shirts...

 

wife linked me to this. what an asshole.

[theprotester]

No wonder he's worth half a billion.

[IHATEU]

pardon my intrusion of your "crossfire" area but i liked this alot....

 

 

 

Everybody’s been too damn polite about this nonsense:

 

The “Occupy” movement, whether displaying itself on Wall Street or in the streets of Oakland (which has, with unspeakable cowardice, embraced it) is anything but an exercise of our blessed First Amendment. “Occupy” is nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists, an unruly mob, fed by Woodstock-era nostalgia and putrid false righteousness. These clowns can do nothing but harm America.

 

“Occupy” is nothing short of a clumsy, poorly-expressed attempt at anarchy, to the extent that the “movement” – HAH! Some “movement”, except if the word “bowel” is attached - is anything more than an ugly fashion statement by a bunch of iPhone, iPad wielding spoiled brats who should stop getting in the way of working people and find jobs for themselves.

 

This is no popular uprising. This is garbage. And goodness knows they’re spewing their garbage – both politically and physically – every which way they can find.

 

Wake up, pond scum. America is at war against a ruthless enemy.

 

Maybe, between bouts of self-pity and all the other tasty tidbits of narcissism you’ve been served up in your sheltered, comfy little worlds, you’ve heard terms like al-Qaeda and Islamicism.

 

And this enemy of mine — not of yours, apparently - must be getting a dark chuckle, if not an outright horselaugh - out of your vain, childish, self-destructive spectacle.

 

In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers. Go back to your mommas’ basements and play with your Lords Of Warcraft.

 

Or better yet, enlist for the real thing. Maybe our military could whip some of you into shape.

 

They might not let you babies keep your iPhones, though. Try to soldier on.

 

Schmucks.

 

 

FRANK MILLER (legendary comic book artist)