12oz Lecture Series - Kimberley Strassel | The Resurgence of Socialism Today

[misteraven]

Thought a few of these might appreciate this video. Fair warning, the speaker is admittedly conservative. Personally I did note a bias to her position, but likewise, I thought her speech was well informed and if you check out her credentials, she's exceedingly well qualified. For the most part, my only real issue is she dedicates quite a bit more time criticizing the left and much less time criticizing the right (though she does).

 

In any case, a lot of you guys seem to be somewhat in support of socialism, or at the least, not critical of it. I've seen @Mercer occasionally drop some knowledge, though he's largely slowed down. I've also recently seen members like @glorydays drop terms like "class war". As I'm trying to leverage this forum not just for entertainment, but perhaps as a platform to explore and learn, if not elevate those that want to be elevated. I've had a few conversations that end with @6Pennies back a while ago. I also welcome intelligent individuals I know in real life like @Jokerand @Grassy Knowlesespecially because both live in an area that seems to be particularly in support of extreme philosophies like socialism.

 

Anyhow, there's a lot of amazing free learning content online, but I've found a lot of really great discussion and info on the Hillsdale College website, as well as their YouTube channel. I would suggest you guys to watch this video and encourage you guys to discuss (and respectfully debate). I'm not saying to just blindly accept what you're hearing, but listen and think about what's being said. Try and do your due diligence... Question the world around you, open your minds and apply reason and logic... Qualities sorely lacking in todays world.

 

In any case, video is embedded below, as well as links referenced above.

 

 

 

Hillsdale College - https://online.hillsdale.edu/

 

Hillsdale YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp5ZjtSZgURJy9EbuBCUlSA

 

Free Constitution 101 Course - https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/constitution-101

 

Free Federalist Papers Course - https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/the-federalist-papers

[misteraven]

P.S. If you don't at least take the time to listen to this speech, don't start jumping in about this or that unless its to mention you plan to listen and loop back. I'm sure you guys can find an hour or so and sit through it.

[misteraven]

Had a conversation recently with someone that brought up Norway as an example of socialized health care to make a point supporting aspects of socialism. Being honest, I know little about Norway, but had always assumed a lot of those Scandinavian countries and NW European countries were Socialist. Seems many are Constitutional or Democratic Monarchies. Either way, I've come to recognize how some systems simply do not scale, but again, was surprised to see what countries are actually Socialist once you take a moment to look into it:

 

The politics of Norway take place in the framework of a parliamentary, representative democratic constitutional monarchy.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Norway

 

List of socialist states

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

 

Would seem if you actually take a moment to learn which countries are indeed Socialist, it largely looses its luster. Certainly not the quaint Scandinavian countries that frequently get looped into conversations on Socialism.

[morton]

You do know there is a politics section to the forum right?

[glorydays]

I am watching currently

[Joker]

Speaking to a sea of old white people in a rural area, of course her mostly conservative ideas are going to resonate. 

 

Yes, I live in a very liberal city, and it's always been that way... well, for as far back as I've dug into its history. That said, I really feel like it's deep dive into the current climate we (my city) live in has been forming in the last ten to fifteen years. When I first moved here ('94) the city was liberal but not far leaning like it is now. There were community gardens everywhere, hippies, most folks rode their bike to get around instead of drive, political bumper stickers were majority democrat, etc. This led to a hug influx of people with a similar mindset - if not a more extreme mindset. This influx of folks have voted into place the current system and it has unfortunately failed us like so many other liberal leaning cities (San Francisco for example). Downtown is awful, there are less police on staff due to an anti-police view by some city officials, which has led to more crime, less convictions, and a somewhat lawless city. As a twenty-something writer... that would be an ideal environment to do work, but as an old dude who is just trying to get to work/home... I don't want to constantly be in fear that some wackjob will have that final eye-twitch and lose his shit while I stand waiting for the bus. The city itself has gotten so bad that after a year of owning a really cool mid-century home with an in-ground kidney-shaped pool, spending over $100k remodeling it myself... my wife and I sold it and moved into a lesser home in a better neighborhood that has it's own police force that takes no shit. Sure, my property taxes are higher but knowing my wife and I can sit on our patio and not have to listen to gun shots all day or constantly pick up garbage folks have thrown over my fence into my backyard or... I'm getting off topic and just ranting. 

 

I'm not even really adding to the conversation, and for the record I've never voted in my life, but I will say that I personally fall somewhere in the middle. I would suppose that's where most common sense people fall. Strassel's views are a little cringe-worthy at times but some of the things she said I can get behind. I personally don't know what the answer is that the whole nation would agree on, and I'm not even going to try. 

[glorydays]

CAVEAT STATEMENTS

I am NOT ANTI-CAPITALIST. I buy alot of streetwear, so i cannot be called anti-capitalist.

I am NOT AGAINST PROPER AUTHORITY. I am not an anarchist, no matter how cool they look.

I am NOT ANTI REPUBLICAN. I voted for Bush Jr. and actually supported him after high school.

I AM CRITICAL OF THE MSM. I do see the media sensationalizing eeeeverything. That's not an exaggeration, it is par for the course for the media cuz $$$$$$$. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this post is solely to critic the video i just watched. I even watched the q and a.

i wanted to give this video the respect it needed in order for me to form my own argument.

With that being said, let me get into the video. i am going to keep this short cuz i have some opinions i want to share with @misteravenand @Joker

 

this video is pre-COVID, so her position and her speech had the backing of a rising bull market and SHIT TONS OF SPENDING. 

 

There were alot of suppositions and assumptions in her speech:

1) every professor in every university is a liberal with the intention of promoting socialism

2) kids are dumb as hell, thus, them being in a university automatically programs kids to be socialist, PERIOD.

3) the MSM, being controlled by liberals, is blocking the truth about capitalism and that's why socialists like Sanders and Warren are getting so much air time

4) capitalism is being spun in a political matter in general, giving room for people to bring up socialism

 

I used to major in english right after high school. I learned to recognize thesis' and themes to essays.

What I learned from the first half of her speech is that, capitalism is just getting a bad PR job and needs to be spun better in the press by more conservative reporters and professors.

 

She did not ever take the other side, which would make this speech informed instead of a spoken editorial.

She did not define socialism, how it became normalized, and why it's being taken up.

She did not give the downsides of de-regulated capitalism in any part of her speech.

 

so, i literally learned nothing about socialism in america. I did get an understanding about her position and how strongly she feels about that position.

 

 

[glorydays]

There are:

 

540 Billionaires

70,000 millionaires earning between 100-500 million dollars

17.67 millionaires earning less than 100 million

 

I have nothing against them earning that much. i do not mind them at all.

 

What i do have a problem with is that everyone earning more than 100 million dollars IS NOT BEING TAXED.

 

people fail to realize that there are dozens of different types of capitalism

 

i advocate for a MIDDLE-OUT ECONOMY

tax cuts should be given to the entire middle class.

the middle class should be supported and backed by the government

the middle class should be the protected class, because 99% of all consumers in america are from the middle class

 

costco wasn't made for the super rich. it was made for the middle class trying to stock up on supplies.

the rich save their money, hide their money. the rich are not the ones buying bulk toilet paper at albertson's or kroger.

 

i don't understand this american tradition of protecting the super rich and heavily taxing the middle class.

trickle down economics was designed to support a growing upper class in the 80's...the population of 2020 cannot live on a trickle down method

 

the middle class is so big, that when COVID hit, america LITERALLY STOPPED MOVING.

 

i do want capitalism but i want the middle class protected.

[glorydays]

The one issuei have with strassel's speech was when she said that in socialism, quality of life will go down if you depend on the government.

 

but in privatization, you'll be depending on the bureaucracy for quality of life

that's, to me, bad because the bureaucracy will only be concerned with their bottom line

 

@Joker I believe people today are anti-police is not because they hate the police but hate what the police do

they see the police as the military arm for the rich

 

Every prison in america is privatized. The more people that are incarcerated, the more money these prisons make.

the prison-industrial complex has deep pockets in the government.

Why do you think that, in most states, an eighth of weed is punishable for 3-5 years

 

incarceration for non-violent, "drug" offenders just pads the money going into privatized prisons who support hard-line politicians with campaign donations

 

this also feeds into the poverty-industrial complex, where people who cant afford the legal fees for petty crimes plead guilty.

The state makes money off of these people

 

the police also do raids on people's houses they suspect of doing illegal drug dealing, even on those who are allowed to sell weed, and take ALL of their property 

these siezures are allowed to be auctioned off after a certain amount of time and the police pocket the money

 

the police are also given millions of dollars for "anti-terrorist" reasons and are armed to the teeth which they use to intimidate citizens 

 

the industrial complexes that the governments create are being upheld by the police who "follow the law"

[misteraven]

1 minute ago, glorydays said:

The one issuei have with strassel's speech was when she said that in socialism, quality of life will go down if you depend on the government.

 

but in privatization, you'll be depending on the bureaucracy for quality of life

that's, to me, bad because the bureaucracy will only be concerned with their bottom line

She's talking about open markets. Generally that implies deregulation, which she goes on to actually specifically mention. That the opposite of bureaucracy. She's coming at it from the point of minimal; government interference, which is largely opposite the ideas of socialism.

 

bureaucracy is defined as a system of government in which most of the important decisions are made by state officials rather than by elected representatives. 

 

1 minute ago, glorydays said:

Every prison in america is privatized.

Not true. Its been a recent trend to outsource more of some responsibilities that had largely been shouldered by government but most prisons are not provate. Also, prisons don't make laws or enforce laws. They simply hold people that are convicted of violating some of them. So the over crowded prisons are a symptom of governments and the subsequent legislation enacted by them and not the prison industrial complex. Only gray area is the lobbying that takes place, but that is actually a separate discussion. If you'd like to consolidate it back into this one, I'd still argue that even that is a symptom of government since we've largely allowed them to rewrite rules and generally dismiss the consequences. All of this stems from government with too much power, which loops back to the idea of government having too much involvement over the day to day life... Something that Socialism is built upon.

 

1 minute ago, glorydays said:

incarceration for non-violent, "drug" offenders just pads the money going into privatized prisons who support hard-line politicians with campaign donations

Addressed above. 

 

2 minutes ago, glorydays said:

this also feeds into the poverty-industrial complex, where people who cant afford the legal fees for petty crimes plead guilty.

The state makes money off of these people

 

the police also do raids on people's houses they suspect of doing illegal drug dealing, even on those who are allowed to sell weed, and take ALL of their property 

these siezures are allowed to be auctioned off after a certain amount of time and the police pocket the money

 

the police are also given millions of dollars for "anti-terrorist" reasons and are armed to the teeth which they use to intimidate citizens 

 

the industrial complexes that the governments create are being upheld by the police who "follow the law"

Again, everything you're describing is a government with too much power. So if government is the problem, why would anyone advocate for more government (like Socialism)?

[Joker]

@glorydays- do people see the police as military because that's all the media shows? Because that's all people who spend half their day sifting through social media see? Because scared citizens who use Nextdoor as their news source are only reading third hand stories by their concerned "woke" neighbor?

 

I won't argue that police in major cities are armed to the teeth for something that may happen, but having so few police that only one squad car controls an 80 block square that has several gangs within in it seems like bullshit, to me. That's allowing criminals to run the neighborhoods, which is exactly what's happening. I won't even get into the homeless situation that has led to some of them turning to crime to survive, and it's been allowed to run out of control with no consequences. 

[misteraven]

1 minute ago, Joker said:

@glorydays- do people see the police as military because that's all the media shows? Because that's all people who spend half their day sifting through social media see? Because scared citizens who use Nextdoor as their news source are only reading third hand stories by their concerned "woke" neighbor?

 

I won't argue that police in major cities are armed to the teeth for something that may happen, but having so few police that only one squad car controls an 80 block square that has several gangs within in it seems like bullshit, to me. That's allowing criminals to run the neighborhoods, which is exactly what's happening. I won't even get into the homeless situation that has led to some of them turning to crime to survive, and it's been allowed to run out of control with no consequences. 

Police have been militarized to a great degree. There's many programs in place to offload retired military vehicles and equipment to LEO under the idea that it was paid for with tax payer money and they're simply getting more use out of the investments. Further, military is a standard feeder for LEO so they're often hiring veterans to fill those roles. This also lends itself to the militarization of police since it has a military culture. Its obvious that you'd take that training and find ways to apply it. Worse though, and this has been disclosed in many places from the NYT to Snowden, is that often times the equipment comes with strings attached. You don't just get handed a Mine Resistant Vehicle with a handshake and that it. Turns out that many departments are being forced to run joint exercises and cooperate fully with other groups like DHS that fall even close to military. Or share data on American citizens. Again, lot of news on this if you look.

[glorydays]

3 minutes ago, misteraven said:

She's talking about open markets. Generally that implies deregulation, which she goes on to actually specifically mention. That the opposite of bureaucracy. She's coming at it from the point of minimal; government interference, which is largely opposite the ideas of socialism.

 

bureaucracy is defined as a system of government in which most of the important decisions are made by state officials rather than by elected representatives. 

 

Not true. Its been a recent trend to outsource more of some responsibilities that had largely been shouldered by government but most prisons are not provate. Also, prisons don't make laws or enforce laws. They simply hold people that are convicted of violating some of them. So the over crowded prisons are a symptom of governments and the subsequent legislation enacted by them and not the prison industrial complex. Only gray area is the lobbying that takes place, but that is actually a separate discussion. If you'd like to consolidate it back into this one, I'd still argue that even that is a symptom of government since we've largely allowed them to rewrite rules and generally dismiss the consequences. All of this stems from government with too much power, which loops back to the idea of government having too much involvement over the day to day life... Something that Socialism is built upon.

 

Addressed above. 

 

Again, everything you're describing is a government with too much power. So if government is the problem, why would anyone advocate for more government (like Socialism)?

I wouldn't generalize it to the entire government having too much power

 

i would agree with you about elected officials who take advantage of a deregulated market to make money off of contractors and privatized institutions for government work.

 

Bloomberg used his connections with private prisons to have prisoners act as phone banks for his campaigns.

William Barr advocated for more incarceration using privatized prisons in his paper "The Case for More Incarceration"

 

there are prisons in america that make so much money that the prison, in and of itself, becomes a publicly traded entity

[misteraven]

Just now, glorydays said:

I wouldn't generalize it to the entire government having too much power

Okay, so where do you define the limits? Also keep in mind that we're discussing a dynamic system here... Government will never reach a point of equilibrium in which it simply agrees it has enough power and stops seeking more of it. Its a tug or way that never ends and all government power truly comes at the expensive of individual freedom and liberty. That simply how it works. What they gain, comes directly from you and what you gain comes directly from them.

 

Just now, glorydays said:

i would agree with you about elected officials who take advantage of a deregulated market to make money off of contractors and privatized institutions for government work.

Not sure you fully understand what deregulation means. Deregulation isn't a free for all or absent of all rules. It largely means that business is free to conduct itself without government intervention. For example, we have legislation against monopolies, but fact of the matter is regulation is precisely what leads to monopolies. It most often creates a high bar for entry so that an upstarts simply cannot compete because its forced to allocate much of its energies and investments towards regulation rather than the business its trying to conduct. So in the end, the big companies wait it out and push for more regulation it can easily absorb, and force the little guys to sell out or forfeit.

[glorydays]

@misteraven

 

i really don't believe that the government et al. is the be all and end all of all economic trouble.

 

again i advocate a middle out economy

 

i also believe that privatization of all industries leave consumers vulnerable to corporations more concerned with making money than caring for the consumer.

 

and because of the lobbying, elected officials are tempted to take the cash than care for their constituents 

 

the dangers of an unregulated economy coupled with the risk of elected officials prepared to protect the rich instead of the consumer majority leads to many points of failure

 

COVID has proven to our very faces that the consumer middle class is the heart and soul of capitalism in the US.

when the consumption stops, the markets crash.

 

look at the oil market right now....gas in my town went to $1.25

consumers make the market

edmund burke said that

adam smith was wrong.

Edited April 7, 2020 by glorydays

[where]

Not to chime in out of turn but gas is primarily inexpensive because of increased production not decreased demand, OPEC and Russia are in a price war. I like the idea of a cogent political  discussion in the more mainstream section on here, I will watch the video and come back with my insights.

Edited April 7, 2020 by where

[glorydays]

2 minutes ago, where said:

Not to chime in out of turn but gas is primarily inexpensive because of increased production not decreased demand, OPEC and Russia are in a price war. I like the idea of a cogent political  discussion in the more mainstream section on here, I will watch the video and come back with my insights.

I am going to push back on that heavy, bro, I'm sorry

 

It's be cause of less consumption, not a price war

 

the ban on travel, the ban on shipping containers overseas, and people staying home

those three are the big money makers for oil corporations

 

restriction on travel and consumer goods transportation is the main reason if not the sole reason, of the price drop

no way would a price war drop the price by more than 50%....no way

[misteraven]

18 minutes ago, glorydays said:

i really don't believe that the government et al. is the be all and end all of all economic trouble.

 

18 minutes ago, glorydays said:

i also believe that privatization of all industries leave consumers vulnerable to corporations more concerned with making money than caring for the consumer.

 

and because of the lobbying, elected officials are tempted to take the cash than care for their constituents 

In a couple sentences you've said government isnt the problem and then turn around and describe how they are the problem.

 

Those corporation rely on government in order to exert power. In an open market, we're free to decide who we rather give our money to in regards to product and services. Big business that takle advantage of people can only really do so when the government is involved. Otherwise, we simply decide we dont want to mess with that company and move put business elsewhere. Unfortunately when government gets involved, those same companies you're describing bank roll politicians in exchange for specific legislation that gives themselves unfair competitive advantage and / or make changes to the environment that puts their competition and disadvantage.

 

Only way to fix that situation is limit government so they cannot interfere and leave the markets to sort things out through cost and innovation. It still leaves those with deeper resources ad an advantage, but its as fair a playing field as you're going to get and also one which ultimately benefits consumers more than anyone else.

[where]

6 minutes ago, glorydays said:

I am going to push back on that heavy, bro, I'm sorry

 

It's be cause of less consumption, not a price war

 

the ban on travel, the ban on shipping containers overseas, and people staying home

those three are the big money makers for oil corporations

 

restriction on travel and consumer goods transportation is the main reason if not the sole reason, of the price drop

no way would a price war drop the price by more than 50%....no way

Oil price went up 25% last Thursday when Russia announced it would cut 10-15 million barrels a day, those talks have just stalled and it’s going back down. I said primarily cause everything is relative but the driving factor in the current situation is production and not demand.

[glorydays]

@misteravenI think there's a communication gap 

 

I want government to place rules to limit lobbying and to cut the amount of money going to politicians

 

using lobbying to influence laws, i believe, is not a problem with the government but industries taking advantage of a lack of control

 

the consumer will never have the ability to influence politicians as well as a rich lobby can

 

privatization is not a symptom of big government, which is the miscommunication is between you and i

i think privatization undermines government regulation and quality control

[Dirty_habiT]

I don't think she went too harsh on the democrats.

[misteraven]

14 minutes ago, glorydays said:

@misteravenI think there's a communication gap 

 

I want government to place rules to limit lobbying and to cut the amount of money going to politicians

 

using lobbying to influence laws, i believe, is not a problem with the government but industries taking advantage of a lack of control

 

the consumer will never have the ability to influence politicians as well as a rich lobby can

 

privatization is not a symptom of big government, which is the miscommunication is between you and i

i think privatization undermines government regulation and quality control

So you want government to try and regulate itself.

 

I'm saying I want to neuter government so there's no need to worry about them being able to regulate themselves. Virtually everything you've brought up as criticism stems from them having more power than they should have. Rather than hope they'll come up with a set of rules for themselves and abide by them, I'm saying take away all the privilege and power and not worry about it.

 

Asking them to regulate themselves is like asking a kid to come up with his own punishment or asking a kid what grade he should give himself.

[misteraven]

12 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

I don't think she went too harsh on the democrats.

Damn, who jacked @Dirty_habiT's account?

 

But which part for example. I dont think she was harsh at all. Pretty much all of it rang true. My problem isnt she was hard enough on the republicans.

[where]

8 minutes ago, misteraven said:

asking a kid what grade he should give himself.

my dog ate my homework 

[glorydays]

1 hour ago, misteraven said:

So you want government to try and regulate itself.

 

I'm saying I want to neuter government so there's no need to worry about them being able to regulate themselves. Virtually everything you've brought up as criticism stems from them having more power than they should have. Rather than hope they'll come up with a set of rules for themselves and abide by them, I'm saying take away all the privilege and power and not worry about it.

 

Asking them to regulate themselves is like asking a kid to come up with his own punishment or asking a kid what grade he should give himself.

what i want to ask tho, is, are you equating government stopping lobbying and kick backs to government regulating itself

 

regulations, if i understand them correctly, is not to keep government small but to keep private industries from taking advantage of consumers

 

and i understand for government to take a step back from certain industries...but there are many more industries out their that act as predators towards consumers

[Dirty_habiT]

1 hour ago, misteraven said:

Damn, who jacked @Dirty_habiT's account?

 

But which part for example. I dont think she was harsh at all. Pretty much all of it rang true. My problem isnt she was hard enough on the republicans.

I was saying that in reference to the fact that I think she went light on them.  There may not have been enough fuel or ammo to have a pinata party about the Republicans  this time.

[Dirty_habiT]

13 minutes ago, glorydays said:

there are many more industries out their that act as predators towards consumers

In a free country there is no method to make anyone be smart about what they consume.  I'm not victim blaming, I'm just saying that I'd enjoy hearing you expand upon which industries are predatory towards consumers.

[Dirty_habiT]

@misteraven- just spit balling here but what does a "neutered government" do if you've taken away all the things they can do?  If the purpose in some peoples' minds is for the government to be as small and without power as possible, then what's the point of even having a government at all.

 

I certainly do not want anarchy, dictatorship, socialism/progressivism, etc.

 

What I think needs to happen is the money needs to be extracted out of politics.  It seems now more than ever that it's a race to see who has the biggest bank to campaign the hardest.  That doesn't mean you will win, but it means that your odds of winning are tremendously increased.

I really don't know what the answer is, but it is REALLY clear to me that I don't want more govt regulation and more taxes.... and I don't want anarchy.

[glorydays]

1 minute ago, Dirty_habiT said:

In a free country there is no method to make anyone be smart about what they consume.  I'm not victim blaming, I'm just saying that I'd enjoy hearing you expand upon which industries are predatory towards consumers.

gold/cash to check places

low credit score credit cards by certain banks -- especially chase and wells fargo

ARM mortgages by credit unions -- especially the ones that focus on low credit scores

everyday needs like gas for vehicle -- before COVID, gas was at 4 dollars a gallon...since the crash it's now at a dollar

 

even now, and its not even the poor that's being targeted, masks for nurses and health workers are being price gouged

these masks were priced at 50 cents each...it is now 6 dollars for a paper mask

[misteraven]

1 hour ago, glorydays said:

what i want to ask tho, is, are you equating government stopping lobbying and kick backs to government regulating itself

its exactly the same... you're depending on government to basically untangle itself from their main source of money. 

 

1 hour ago, glorydays said:

regulations, if i understand them correctly, is not to keep government small but to keep private industries from taking advantage of consumers

Regulation, in general, is government interfering in a market or sector. They'll always say its for the greater good, but we all know that they are not unbiased and fact is most legislation is actually drafted by lobbyists. Government just rubber stamps it into law. Markets, for the most part regulate themselves. If a company takes advantage, and you don't like it, you stop doing business with them. When there's regulation, it often becomes you forced to do business with them due to regulations. Again, its a middle man that is disrupting the natural order of things.

 

1 hour ago, glorydays said:

and i understand for government to take a step back from certain industries...but there are many more industries out their that act as predators towards consumers

Okay, lets analyze a few... Please drop examples and we'll explore and discuss.