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nsmbfan

The best reasons to believe that there is a God

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i wasnt mad or trying to attack you, im just sayin i get a kick in the pants out of the idea that we were 'created' so that god could have a relationship with us.

 

yea i dont know if i necessarily believe it, but ive heard alot of people say things along those lines.

 

just tryin to throw in ish ive heard to hear differant perspectives, thats all

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the.crooked:

The theory thing? Im a physics minor bra im quite aware of scientific correctness and definitions...

 

its just half the ish im sayin are the stances of people i have talked to in the past, never said thats how i feel("i" in my previous posts="them"). Just tryin to get good responses to all the standpoints in order to promote further discussions outside 12oz.

 

discussing this is wack anyway tho. noone is going to change anyone elses mind. fun to see reactions tho ha

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dang it sorry for the posts fellas

the.crooked:

or the human mind grasp thing?

I agree with you on that--the human mind cannot possibly fathom eternity, or even the vastness of our own solar system let alone the universe.

But while the whole 'well our contention is' thing is the most likely conclusion based off the fact that it has yet to be disproven, it is still a 'we dont really know, its a guess, but we are fairly certain its this because experiments prove xy&z..yattayatta ' Definately the most likely truth, but we cannot control for every single one of the inconcievable factors that also 'may have been present'. Thats what all my professors have said anyway, unless i misunderstood or somthin.

 

their basic sum up in the debates that continue to this day in my classes is you dont know, i dont know, noone else knows, so whats the effin point. on to more theory testing.

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Yeah,

 

I think that's the basic caveat:

 

Rather than get hung up on the minutia of the fact that science will never know fully, we should at least do what is useful in science.

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holy fucking shit. a lot of responses, and well versed people.

 

science explains how, not why. i can agree to that.

 

religion is a fallacy, trying to explain the why. but even when I read "god created the heavens and earth", there was no clear reason as to why. boredom with infinite power?

 

I originally intended for this thread to bring out religious people and their convictions. Faith is fucked up and leads to controversy, more often than not. I live in the south. You can only imagine the pious group of fuckwits I see on a daily basis. This is cause for concern for me, because I fear stupid people in groups.

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I'm an atheist. when you interject this bit you lose me. if we're going to be scientific about things, why do you suppose we're aliens/intergallactic travellers? it sounds like a big heaping pile of bullshit to me.

 

because of the unexplained ancient evidence left behind by people from all over the world.

 

Chariots of the Gods - free PDF ebook download here: http://www.mediafire.com/?cyjtmieqzez

Erich Von Daniken

http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html

 

 

 

what I propose is that everything we know is based on observation. and before TV, people observed the skies. very much so. they toiled laborously creating massives structures in key astrological points on our planet. why? my guess is to appease "the Gods".

 

I barely understand most of what has been posted on here about physics, I have a high school education. Maybe I am bat shit insane, but if you can come up with a better theory as to why shit like THIS exists, I'm all ears:

 

nazca-lines1.gif

OR

nazca-lines-200811-ss.jpg

 

The truth is, you don't know. Science could explain how they were made. But why make a bunch of pictures in a windless, dry, arid, unforgiving landscape... that can only be viewed from hundreds of feet in the air? These pre-date any technology capable of flight, yet here they are.

 

And I can't find it right now, but also the map that was from the dark ages, showing north american and south america in rigid detail, accurately depicting rivers and mountain valleys... but here's the catch, the map was drawn as if looking at the earth from several miles up. It was sketched so that if you were to contour it around a modern GLOBE, the flat paper map would wrap around the globe and match up perfectly with everything. This thing was drawn as if the artist were looking down at the world, spherical. Hard to explain without seeing it. I'll hunt down a picture.

 

But fucks sake man, somethings going on here.

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NSMBFAN-

 

There have been many arguments as to why "God" created earth.

 

If you are curious about them,

 

I suggest you look into The Ontological Argument.

 

This is essentially the various philosophical arguments for the existence of God from an a priori stance. That page even includes an argument for the non-existence of God.

 

However all of them are mired down by moral or value statements which as a foundational statement of the argument do not hold in all cases or interpretations.

 

One of the more interesting arguments for existence and God's creation of it, at least in my mind, is along the lines of Leibniz and his concept of possible worlds. God, in his infinite nature must create everything for it would be delimiting him and his powers were he not to. And because god is infinitely good, he must only make that which is infinitely perfect, or in this case, the best. Because of our existence, it stands to reason that this is the best of all possible worlds and thus the necessity of our creation stands on that point.

 

I'm prolly missing something in the argumentative line, but that's the general gist of it.

 

This is also where the idea of accidental and necessary functions arise (as I alluded to in my initial response to MAR). It is accidental in the sense that there is any other possible world that can be imagined, but it is necessary that this is the one that occurs.

 

The last point can be made from a myriad of positions (both secular and non). To the former, if one ascribes to the validity of science and of cause and effect, then the universe has necessarily ended up this way because each event affects the other. And it is simply so that it has occured this way.

 

A way to look at it is sort of like looking at free will in deterministic systems: "I know that I will come to a choice. What that choice may be, I can not say until I have made it. But I can assure you a choice will be made." There is an inevitability of the future that allows this concept to play out. So, accidental and necessary properties of existence are sort of moot, for anything has its hand in both; Things are accidental until they occur, at which point they become necessary.

 

The non-secular version of the argument is much like that of Leibniz's best possible world. Existence is the best it can be because of God's infinitely good nature. Plain and simple.

 

These are the moments where you can see MAR's vision of co-existence playing out.

 

To further that view, I think MAR should look into Spinoza's conception of God. For Spinoza, it was the playing out of an eternal existence that comprised what "God" is. His views are very closely tied to that of the secular version of accidental and necessary properties I spoke about earlier in the post.

 

If I weren't at work I'd draw out a diagram to sort of show how Spinoza's conception of time, space and action play into all this, but yeah. The store is flooding on the day before thanksgiving, and I have sale tags to print.

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because of the unexplained ancient evidence left behind by people from all over the world.

 

what I propose is that everything we know is based on observation. and before TV, people observed the skies. very much so. they toiled laborously creating massives structures in key astrological points on our planet. why? my guess is to appease "the Gods".

 

I barely understand most of what has been posted on here about physics, I have a high school education. Maybe I am bat shit insane, but if you can come up with a better theory as to why shit like THIS exists, I'm all ears:

 

 

The truth is, you don't know. Science could explain how they were made. But why make a bunch of pictures in a windless, dry, arid, unforgiving landscape... that can only be viewed from hundreds of feet in the air? These pre-date any technology capable of flight, yet here they are.

 

And I can't find it right now, but also the map that was from the dark ages, showing north american and south america in rigid detail, accurately depicting rivers and mountain valleys... but here's the catch, the map was drawn as if looking at the earth from several miles up. It was sketched so that if you were to contour it around a modern GLOBE, the flat paper map would wrap around the globe and match up perfectly with everything. This thing was drawn as if the artist were looking down at the world, spherical. Hard to explain without seeing it. I'll hunt down a picture.

 

But fucks sake man, somethings going on here.

 

There is always going to be a certain disconnect between historic cultures and our own analyses of them.

 

I think it's fine that you have speculations about the creation, purpose and use of these structures, but just as you are claiming that we and science can say little on them, you should keep that in mind yourself.

 

I think all Ski Mask and I were saying is that speculative commentary is not going to get you anywhere in a scientific argument. That's all.

 

I too have somewhat out there views on these things, but I'm not gonna put them out there because it doesn't have dick to do with anything really. It's best to leave what you can't speak with some validity or certainty on out of arguments where there is more than enough to speak about aptly.

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*conciousness

*the universe

* math (sacred geometry,the flower of life the fibonnocci sequence)

*existance

those are all proofs of something, remember god is just a word made up by man and translated over time relying on words to explain things to you will hardly ever get you anywhere

 

all of that was probobly already said but enjoy

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nsmbfan:

Did you ever see that documentary on some of that mayan(?) or some civilization where even by todays standards, the archetecture/physics of the remaining ruins were impossible? They showed a huge pillar, like some huge gigantic tonnage, and 3/4 of it was underground with the remainder above ground, and it all supported this large stone structure. The thing is, the pillar was made of a type of stone that can only be found 10 mountain ranges away or somthing.

 

Furthermore, the cuts and inscriptions on alot of the stone they were saying couldnt even be done today by lasers-they were that precise, even thru thousands of years of weathering. I forgot what channel it was on, but it was some crazy stuff!

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I find the arguement of science and religion to be pointless, science has an idea, questions it and then trys to either backup or refute the theory with hard evidence.

 

Religion says this is what it is deal with it, there is no questioning, no trying to prove or disprove (because even religious people know there is no way to prove that their fairy tales are true because theyy aren't), no reasonable suggestion of anything factual of evidence based or with any grounding in reality.

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Ive kind of agree with Decyferon on this argument. But at the same time neither side really has evidence to support their claim (there are always missing links) but I think the argument is a waste of time. If you believe in God or alien space lizards or that there is no devine spirit thats fine but it doesnt make sense to worry about others beliefs. I mean we'll all find out someday...

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I don't really like Spinoza.

 

My views on a supreme being are very closely tied to Judaism.

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I'm well aware.

 

We have had gone back and forth on this before if you remember.

 

I was droppin Spinoza just to elucidate some different views of the word "God" in philosophical history.

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I also agree that the use of the word "god" can be seen in a somewhat secular sense. I think, however, that for those of us with such a view, the word "reality" suffices and fits our ethos much better.

 

Take certain particular uses of the word "god" in regular religious idioms;

 

"God works in mysterious ways." and things like that.

 

Replace the word "god" with "reality" and you will a striking functional equivalence;

 

"Reality works in mysterious ways."

 

"God willing" versus "Reality willing"

 

The phrasing may seem awkward, but the semantic content remains almost completely unchanged.

 

Both refer to an external realm of forces and uknowns.

 

In the latter case the semantic function refers to the future, to that which is yet to be seen or known.

 

In the former it refers to the way the entirety of existence happens and "works."

 

I don't think that this interpretation of the word "god" is necessarily secular. It's risky to generalize about religions the world over, but I think many religious visionaries throughout history have had a similar definition. Aldous Huxley's "The Perennial Philosophy" is a pretty interesting examination of this. It's not exactly philosophically rigorous, but he demonstrates some convincing parallels between eastern and western religions that revolve around this "reality" based conception of god.

 

I think the origins of gods, both in monotheistic and polytheistic traditions, arose out of reverence and awe of various aspects of the natural world, or, in monotheism, the entirety of reality itself. The abstraction of the idea of god from a sort of underlying, animating force to an actual being, a "creator" in the human sense seems like a perversion. I suppose I like to continue using the term "god" because of the timeless weight the word carries, despite its baggage.

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As I said before, I was have only been using the form of "God" as hinted at and laid out at the beginning of this thread by NSMBFAN.

 

 

I am not trying to say these comments extend to every interpretation of that word, capitalized or otherwise. Thus my reticence to say it applies to Mar's "G-d," etc...

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I couldn't believe in a god if I tried!

Unless dude made me aware of his presence in a way he knows I would buy.

If I'm ever on the road to Damascus and get blinded by the light, I'll pay attention. Until then, science is my little lantern in this corner of the dark universe.

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I agree cracked, I have always said that the only thing that would convince me of god would be him appearing in front of me and doing some crazy god like stuff to convince me of his ultimate power, otherwise I'm not buying it. I mean I wouldn't believe in god if I died and someone appeared in front of me claiming to be god, they need to exercise their power before I believe.

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Shit, we are always trying to validate our existence somehow. My opinion? Accidents happen all the time, plus I prescribe to the Everett model. I honestly think being faithful for some gives them a sort of reassurance that they're living for a higher meaning. Gives em steam to get by. And unfortunately incubates egocentricity and acts as a handy veil to hide ignorance and intolerance. I'm perfectly fine with accepting the possibility of an accidental existence. Perhaps those who prescribe to a deity need that "meaning", and if they were to accept an accident their lives would unravel. But what do I know? Not much at all and I'm cool with that.

 

Remember, we are living on a speck of dust nestled in an infinitesimal pocket of space.

 

Be Cool,

 

SystemFailure

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it seems to me that this thread may serve to feed trolls on both sides of the issue. i personally belive God created me and everyone out of love. i personally plan to be a catholic priest. i understand why some either never developed faith or have lost it, and i pray for those individuals everytime i do pray, and i also dont disrespect those who have no faith. that is what we are taught (or should be tought to belive) that god will accept anyone and loves everyone, and i figure if God accepts and loves everyone who am i to throw His teachings away just because i dont agree with them.

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NSMBFAN-

 

One of the more interesting arguments for existence and God's creation of it, at least in my mind, is along the lines of Leibniz and his concept of possible worlds. God, in his infinite nature must create everything for it would be delimiting him and his powers were he not to. And because god is infinitely good, he must only make that which is infinitely perfect, or in this case, the best. Because of our existence, it stands to reason that this is the best of all possible worlds and thus the necessity of our creation stands on that point.

 

 

 

Therefore god created Detroit, therefore god is not good.

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