Another person killed for pulling a "bb gun" on police.

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

Wow. Criminals defending police... WTF has 12oz become.

 

To serve and protect. Trigger happy pig fucks that resort to deadly force without using their bat-belt to full capacity are the problem. NOT dumb kids, hoodlums, thugs, whatever. Of the last dozen or so headline sized murder-by-cops that have happened, 100% could have been deescalated with other tools on their belt--tazer, pepper spray, baton, VERBAL COMMUNICATION, etc. This "split second" pull the trigger justification is nonsense--I could have killed at least one Afghan a day, following much stricter rules of engagement, but I didn't, and neither did most of my fellow soldiers. Cops have been given impunity for their actions, that any of you justify their tendency to shoot first cause they're scared is pure shenanigans. As taxpayers all of us pay for training and certification of these pigs for all tools on their belt, there is no excuse for them to not be used. Yes, the system is broken and they need much more and more frequent training than they receive, but when dipshit citizens like you give the police a free-pass with the "stupid prizes" argument you negate the chance of those necessary improvements happening.

 

The Constitution protects even the most stupid--don't be so willing to shit all over it because you've learned to pre-lube your asshole and grab your ankles for the officer, sir.

 

 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Didn't we used to argue about this with you being on the boot licking side?

If so, then I'm glad to see you come to your senses. If not, then my bad.

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

^110% cosigned!

 

I was thinking the same exact thing....a pro-police thread on 12oz???....wtf?!

 

The majority of my interactions with the police have been fucked up....i've been talked shit to, cussed at, had racial slurs thrown at me, my arm twisted up and all this as im in the back seat of a cop car trying to be respectful (or as d_habz put it refer to cop as "officer" and be on my best behavior)....not to mention the one time the cops didnt have shit on me when i was pulled over cause i was riding clean and he came back to my window and threw my license and registration at me and was being extra condescending.

 

I also agree with the deescalation with verbal communication especially...they get trained for this...but theyd rather shoot first, ask questions last....they show no restraint at all....are there cops that follow the rules?....yes....are there others that think they are above the law?...YES...the reason im on a fuck ALL cops type shit, is because even the ones that follow the rules don't hold the ones that dont follow the rules accountable.....heres an example of one cop following the rules while the other cop is a straight up fucking asshole prick...

 

 

and as fist said theyve been given impunity for their actions, so they can get away with this shit.

 

Now they have "blue lives matter" and cops are full on wearing blue line patches....its a fucking slap in the face to the black lives matter people who are trying to bring attention to the senseless loss of black lives....here are some cops in my city wearing said patches....

 

 

P.S. Thank you for your service Fist.

 

 

 

Yo Cali-G, remember when I was mad outnumbered by cop sucking boot lickers on here arguing about this exact same topic?

I was like "how the fuck is yall on a graff site with that pig dick jammed so far down your throats?"

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

Real shit, and this is the absolute truth... this is a fact, these pigs these days are actually trained to be trigger happy. They are literally trained to be paranoid at every single interaction with the public, and trained to shoot first and ask questions later. They are also trained what to say (he moved his hand and I was in fear for my life), and what to say to legally cover for each other. And then after all that training to be trigger happy, they are even more encouraged by the fact that every time one of their buddies shoots somebody it's a automatic paid vacation.

So then this myth about "cops don't show up to work deciding that they're going to kill somebody that day" is completely thrown out the window. As soon as they're feeling stressed about anything, whether it be work life or home life, they know for a fact that all they have to do is shoot somebody and they will be automatically be put on paid vacation and they will never be fired, much less charged, because even if the police chief wanted to their union won't let him. And to top it all off, police have to literally FLUNK an IQ test to be hired. They have to take an IQ test to prove that they'e stupid enough to be a cop, and if they score too high then they're told to kick rocks.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

[~KRYLON2~]

This shit is crazy

[Fist 666]

@DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Haha. I've definitely argued with you about a lot of shit, but I've never had a pro-cop stance.

I can think of a couple arguments related to justified use of force, the 21-foot rule specifically, where I've argued that deadly force was within reason (and I do think on occasion it is) with your response being that I'm a boot-licker...

[misteraven]

Not sure how I missed this thread... Interesting to see the opinions here, which seem to basically parallel what I've seen in the real world.

 

Firstly, it's great to see you guys share opinion and discuss without this degrading into insults and argument (despite being a pretty highly charged topic). Kudos to you guys for that... Not to stray off topic, but it seems to me that people no longer know how to disagree. It's my opinion that school, media and society in general are actually being taught / encouraged to pick a side and defend it, rather than be able to apply intelligent, independent thought, logic, rhetoric and ultimately accept that we can (and often will) reach different opinions / conclusions about topics and that's okay. It's not a contest and though it can be satisfying to open a persons mind and get them to get on your page, we're all best served when we can question the world around us, debate intelligently, review and analyze. Again, seems like this is becoming an increasingly rare thing. And not to stray further off topic, but it also seems to me that there's a conspiracy that is pushing this. Considering how old the strategy of 'Divide and conquer' is, I can't help but wonder if that's what we're seeing in this hyper-polarized world, especially when it comes to politics.

 

I know we have a presidential debate thread, but makes me think that that when you have a plate with a big steaming pile of shit on it, does it really matter if you hold the spoon with your left hand or right hand when you're still forced to eat it? That's what politics has become as far as I see it.

 

But back on topic... I happen to find myself agreeing with what @One Man Banned is saying. There's plenty of good cops and definitely plenty of bad ones. Undoubtedly a number of them have really fucked up lately. The dude that got choked to death on camera for selling loose cigarettes is a glaring example. In my opinion a kid pointing a bb gun is not. I'd definitely heap a lot of accountability on his parents, but fact is a kid that's 11 (and especially one that's 13) knows you don't point a gun at anyone and especially not a cop. Now, did the kid deserve to die? No, I don't think so... It's definitely tragic, but with the state of the world, and especially with the anti-cop sentiment, you really surprised that a cop sees a kid pointing what appears to be a gun at him (and at any distance) have the ability to identify that it might not be a real gun and therefore not react with deadly force? Even if the front was painted orange, that wouldn't be enough to sway me on it. You have to be a complete idiot to point anything at a cop. Literally, even using your finger to mimic a gun and doing that to a cop is a retarded idea considering how charged up shit is. And if the black community is going to be critical of law enforcement how they're treated, that community should be especially aware that perhaps you might want to tread that much more lightly around cops until the situation calms down a bit.

 

Now, I'l likely open myself up to criticism for saying it, but I feel race relations in this country took a step back 30 years after Obama was elected. Some might say his winning the presidency brought out all the racists in this country, but my thoughts are that everything has been engineered to divide people since he's come into office. It's not really just race, its literally everything... People are compelled to pick a side and argue it (often emotionally instead of logically). Now I'm not going to say racism doesn't exist, but I find it hard for anyone to acknowledge that the divisiveness we're seeing has been exacerbated exponentially in the last half decade or so.

 

Further to that, I'm also seeing some a lot of bullshit going the other way. The way the media seems to be glossing over white people being attacked by black people or selectively editing protest footage to not show anti-white slurs and rioting really makes me believe that there's an agenda at play. I know BLM isn't quite as decentralized an organization as Anonymous for example, but it does seem to be appropriated by many all over the country and if not decentralized is at least disorganized. That being said, I've seen enough video footage, audio and images to see that it often devolves into blatantly racist rhetoric and action as well. Considering how many of those types of transgressions I've seen and the disorganization of it in general, it's amazing to me that it's being taken as seriously as it has.

 

Anyhow, kinda keep wandering off topic, but I did listen to a very interesting podcast that was discussing this issue. A lot of what it had to say is that the employment criteria for law enforcement is largely to blame for what we're seeing. That there's a lot of quota shit and all sorts of union rules that have fundamentally altered the way they hire cops. That though many are now required to have a minimum education level or not discriminate based on sex or physical size and ability that ensuring they meet criteria or quota has taken priority over what in the past was them looking a temperament and physical ability. So for example, they have to hire women despite the fact that there is very little selection to pull from as most women aren't interested in being cops, they wind up hiring ones that really aren't qualified. Likewise for males, rather than find someone very physically capable and that might have the right temperament to deal with the rigors of the position, they instead have to narrow the selection pool to meet a specific criteria that often leaves them hiring less physically capable men that probably don't have the ideal temperament. The net result is that besides being ill prepared in terms of temperament, they're also reaching for tasers and guns before they should because they're physically unprepared to cope with many situations through regular old brute force. Anyhow, was an interesting angle that I hadn't considered and made a ton of sense to me in terms of explaining why now and why is this happening pretty much everywhere at once.

 

Just my two cents.

[CALIgula]

I wouldn't necessarily say that President Obama's election took race relations back 30 years, but rather it brought underlying racist views out into mainstream culture again.

 

To me and my girlfriend, we see racism as not what it was like during the pre-civil era years. It still exists, but it is subtle and not all in your face. However, since President Obama's election a lot of people have felt emboldened by their peers and right wing media to bring it out of subtlety. I've seen the N-word (and similar words) being dropped more often in the last eight years than I have ever seen in my entire 36 years.

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

@DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Haha. I've definitely argued with you about a lot of shit, but I've never had a pro-cop stance.

I can think of a couple arguments related to justified use of force, the 21-foot rule specifically, where I've argued that deadly force was within reason (and I do think on occasion it is) with your response being that I'm a boot-licker...

 

Yeah, that must've been it. The 21 foot rule is a part of the conspiracy to train cops to be trigger happy that I was talking about.

Obviously the 21' rule might maybe apply if you're dealing with some ninja or buff ass, fit ass dude speeding on meth and wielding a Rambo knife or machete. But the vast majority of the time it's either just some old ass, homeless, schizophrenic dude ranting to himself with a pen knife in his hand, or some suicidal kid who refuses to show his hands. Or something similar to that. Cops have other methods and tools at their disposal other than just going straight to the gun and pumping led. The fuck is a taser even for? Seems like the only time they ever use that is to taze women for talking back during traffic stops.

The 21' rule is a huge part of training cops to be trigger happy and giving them a excuse to just go for their guns and open up a street side firing squad where they all empty their mags on somebody for no real reason.

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

I wouldn't necessarily say that President Obama's election took race relations back 30 years, but rather it brought underlying racist views out into mainstream culture again.

 

To me and my girlfriend, we see racism as not what it was like during the pre-civil era years. It still exists, but it is subtle and not all in your face. However, since President Obama's election a lot of people have felt emboldened by their peers and right wing media to bring it out of subtlety. I've seen the N-word (and similar words) being dropped more often in the last eight years than I have ever seen in my entire 36 years.

 

Spot on. Obama being elected brought all the DL racists out the closet. Trump's campaign has done even more than that, it's given them license to proudly wear their racism as a badge of honor.

[misteraven]

Not sure I'm really buying into the fact that Obama getting elected brought out all the dormant racism. As mentioned, I've been seeing it go both ways, though black on white crimes have gone under reported from what I'm seeing. Likewise, when a protest entails smashing windows and setting shit on fire, it's a riot not a protest.

 

I don't associate with racists, at least as far as I know. Being as how I've been in NYC for most of the last 15 years, its about as diverse an ethnic makeup as you can get. That being said, I've absolutely noted an uptick of insults and intimidation from my own personal experience. Think it was about 2 - 3 years ago, it was some sort of trent for black kids to sucker punch white kids, calling it 'knock out'. I recall an MTA worker on his way home getting knocked out and literally dying. Likewise, all this conversation about white privilege and make privilege and all this other stuff is just a bunch of nonsense as far as my opinion.

 

My belief is that this racist dynamic (on both sides of the fence) is being manipulated / encouraged methodically. I just don't see it at all being something that was hidden all along and then suddenly came to the surface organically because we now have a black president. Sorry, just not going to subscribe to that, the same way I can't believe that the political divide and gender divide and all the other divides we're suddenly seeing pop up is systematic to a fucked up culture. Again, The Art of War written by Sun Tzu in the 5th freakin century BC, which is still fundamental to modern military strategy, discusses the concept of 'divide and conquer'.

 

While the focus remains on fighting each other, whether it' skin color, class, gender or whatever schism gets promoted and encouraged, politicians are literally getting away with murder. People these days are quick to pick a team and then rabidly defend that team, even if the ideologies no longer line up to it. Democrats, which have an ideology that adhere's to an anti-war stance flock to Obama, who's actually bombed and invaded more countries than Bush. Likewise, few Republicans are as hawkish as the Clintons, whether it's Bill or Hillary. They're also traditionally anti Wall Street and few politicians are as connected to Wall Street as the Clintons. On the flip side, George W Bush created the DHS, which was an exponential growth of government and the exact opposite of Republican ideology.

 

You can literally watch it unfolding right now... The media is focusing on an 11 year old open mic comment from Donald Trump regarding grabbing pussies and almost no mention that Russia is mobilizing nuclear missiles and both them and China are actively announcing they are entering a war stance via their national media. We've literally turned politics into a reality show filled with nonsense and nobody seems to be concerned that geopolitically we're just about as close to World War 3 as we've ever been when you consider what's actually happening in Russia, Iran, North Korea and even China.

 

So crazy to me. But yeah, really don't think any of this has to do with white's in America being inherently racist.

[Hua Guofang]

Couple of quick thoughts for you:

 

• If there is a divide and conquer agenda who is trying to conquer who, for what outcome and what will victory look like?
  
• I don't think political/ideological/religious polarisation is limited to any one place in the world at the moment. One might suggest that Sunni/Shiite antagonism is as bad as it has been for generations. Conservative V. Progressive folk are very divided in Australia and the UK as well. Brexit is pure manifestation of division and nationalism and populism are on the rise in many countries. Niall Ferguson has argued for years that economic downturn will result in populism and nationalism - and that's exactly what we've seen since the GFC. I know that you're an international dude as you've traveled and lived overseas. However, the discussion that you're having here and in the election thread come across as a bit narrow in vision as you seem to be talking about the US as it is its own microcosm that exists aside from global trends and influences. I say that because it would seem to me that you're not placing the US in a global context and if you did you may see that what the US is experiencing with social polarisation is not exclusive to your country. That would suggest to me that US media, politics, etc. are likely not the driver of polarisation but are manifestations of it and the drivers are to be found elsewhere. My suggestion would be its a bit of a backlash against globalisation, a speed hump on the road to the future, teething pains of a world more interconnected, etc. etc.
   
  
• I agree, we are moving in a dangerous direction and things are looking bleaker each year in regards to international relations. However, barring an improbable trigger (such as the US bringing down a bunch of Russian aircraft or taking out a Russian base in Syria or some trigger-happy captains on the South China Sea refusing to back down and starting a shitfight) I think we're still a long way from war yet.
   
  
• Regards your comparison between Bush the isolationist, conservative that invaded two countries and created the DHS and Obama the peace lover, human rightist that carries out extrajudicial killings by drone and presides over many military actions - I think this goes back to what I was talking about above: the world has more of a say in how the US president acts than does his/her ideology or intentions. Bush became an interventionist (both abroad and at home in terms of the patriot act, etc.) as a result of what some dudes planned and carried out from Afghanistan and elsewhere (no, I'm not a truther). Obama who wanted to get out of the Mid East and close Gitmo was forced to engage with Islamic State and couldn't find countries to take the Gitmo prisoners. US foreign and domestic policy is influenced and constrained by global trends and events and foreign policy under presidents is a reflection more of what is happening in the world than the way the Pres. chooses to see the world
  
• Back to social polarisation, this is not the first time we've seen such divided societies. I agree, society is pretty dang far from cohesive in many, many countries right now but its not the first time as things were pretty bad during the first half of the 21st century and during the Cold War we saw McCarthyism and the red scare, etc. etc. During the first 100 years of Australia's history the country was very racially divided with riots, massacres, state suppression and brutality, etc. I think ewe can find periods in the modern era where society has been very divided similar to what we see today.
  

[One Man Banned]

Sun Tzu is good, classic even, but so is Confucius, had a lot of interesting things to say about leadership and governing that still applies today.

 

On the topic of racism, 1st I'm surprised that 12oz is able to intelligently tackle this issue as past discussion led to replies of wonksaggin and thread closures. I find it important to note that there is bias everywhere and in pretty much everyone. Sometimes it is obvious, but at other times it has been planted there in an obvious manner but we are so used to it as to not give it proper attention. For example, when people think of propaganda I think the images that come to mind are old Nazi posters or ones from China or Russia depicting Communism, but there is a shit ton of propaganda put forth by mainstream American media that people readily gobble up as "news" without realizing they are being fed an angle that represents the political or other views of that media source. This influences sterotypes, discrimination, and racism.

 

I don't think America became more racist with Obama, but I do think BLM members/supporters could note that having a black president has not appeared to reduce racism or help their cause. Obama running likely did attract more black voters, some of who may not have voted otherwise, but it's also true that a lot of white people and others had to vote for him too. The N word is an interesting topic that could carry its own thread, but briefly, it's use has become more outward, more prevalent over time, feel like a lot of that came through rap music and white culture embracing/imitating that. However it came to be, I believe that the word is too steeped in racism to simply decide that if we change the word from nigger to nigga that it is non-racist and now acceptable. This is not like gay culture reclaiming the word queer. Further, there are some who seem to feel that the word is acceptable for blacks to use but not whites. I can think of no other word in any language or culture where the use of that word is aceptable for one group of people but banned for another. Just helps maintain division. Final thought on the N word, sometime during his run or after being elected I think it was Jesse Jackson who was overheard referring to Obama as a nigger. When a white person (of stature) gets caught using the N word I tend to see them meeting with someone like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson to make amends, so who does JJ go to for having done the same?

 

But back to cops and robbers... lots of complicating factors in here, racism is only part of it. I remember learning in a sociology class the concept of the symbolic offender. Take a cop working a gang neighborhood in the 80s, when repping colors was full out in your face. As the cops have increased interactions for criminal mattes with people wearing red bandanas, for example, the more they come to identify people with red bandanas as being criminals. Of course, this will also screw any non-gang affiliated individual who is out wearing a red bandana as they are automatically seen as suspect. That's not racism, it's the cops learning to associate certain features with criminal activity. Going after the people with red bandanas makes sense from the cop's perspective, but it does open innocent people to unwanted attention, harrassment, etc. Again, not defending cops, just understanding the complexity of the issue. Also not denying that there are some cops who are flat out racist assholes, but then there are plenty of people who are not cops who fit that category well.

 

In the end cops should be better trained at what they do- they're not. Your general beat cop is kind of jack of all trades, responding to accidents, missing persons, traffic violations, disputes, and straight out criminal activity. They really don't get to master any particular subject and I suspect that the majority of them are not properly trained to use even one of the tools available to them to resolve an issue, including their own mouth. I lived in NYC for a number of years and found it quite lame at how the police are able to resist oversight of any degree while at the same time having the power to stop and frisk anyone of their choosing without real cause. Something like the Garner incident- the cop used a hold that is not allowed and did so in a situation that was not life or death- people should be held responsible for that and people should have consequences for that.

 

Going back to the origin of this thread, as a gun owner I think what would I do if I had my weapon on me and saw someone else pointing a weapon at me? Chances are I'm going to draw my weapon and defend myself as necessary. Final thought, is a BB gun a toy, or a weapon? Both? In their anger I think some are trying to make it out like poor kids, they were out playing with their toys and got shot by cops who should have recognized it was a kid with a toy.

 

 

Hmm- looks like Hua posted while I was typing this, so none of this is in response to his last post.

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

Not sure I'm really buying into the fact that Obama getting elected brought out all the dormant racism. As mentioned, I've been seeing it go both ways, though black on white crimes have gone under reported from what I'm seeing. Likewise, when a protest entails smashing windows and setting shit on fire, it's a riot not a protest....

Can you tell us again about why you moved to Katispell Montana?

 

http://www.abcfoxmontana.com/story/27432840/whitefish-residents-take-aim-at-white-supremacist-group

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

Oops, think I meant to post this one.

Just asking.

http://gawker.com/5814365/montana-town-becomes-hotbed-of-angry-white-people

[misteraven]

@DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER I haven't moved to Kalispel. Plan is to move to NW Montana and won't be far from it. Kind of a long story, and you might be able to piece some of it together from some of my other comments on here, but I'd been going to Wyoming a bit over these last few years. Not sure how many people here have been to Jackson Hole, but it's literally one of the most beautiful places on earth, starting with the little airport they have that feels like a ski lodge and exists at the base of the Grand Teton Mountain range. Anyhow, I met some really great people out there and after living in NYC for so long decided that the idea of living in a place opposite of NYC appealed to me. So I started looking around and unfortunately, Jackson is super expensive due to the influx of wealthy Californians moving there. Likewise, many are bringing California politics to the state and starting to change it from what it's been which I find to be a bummer considering how overly legislated California is. Anyhow, while house hunting for a property with lots of land and great views, we came up on a beautiful spot up in Whitefish, Montana. I had a little free time, so we decided to road trip and really loved the area, which happens to sit at the base of Glacier National Park. We put an offer in on the place and after two months of haggling lost it to the sellers friend. So we started looking around that area some more since it's about as beautiful as Jackson, but not nearly as expensive.

 

So, no big conspiracy... Just wanted to live in the least densely populated area I could that also had as few politicians as possible. Here's some pictures of the area, which will probably help you understand (not to thread jack).

 

 

 

[misteraven]

*yes, it's far North enough to catch some of Northern Lights.

[misteraven]

**will get back to the previous comments when I get some time to draft a proper response. slammed at the moment.