^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 burn in hell tookie williams. I cant even begin to understand how some of you think he's an asset to the community.. boggles my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Ironhead and others who are adamant about him dying. He killed four people. How many young lives has he saved with his work with gang members? I'm not saying he can some how "work off" the mistakes he made, but how many more lives could he save if he were given the chance to live? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isor357 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 maybe he didnt kill them people. Positive note- he doesnt cost money for taxpayers negative note- the money we save preserving this dude will be be used to kill iraqis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Look you stupid fucks, no one is saying to let him back out on the streets or reintegrate him into society. This is a kill him or let him rot debate. Rotting yields both the books and a strong voice in opposition to gangs, violence, and bullshit in general. Killing him makes a bunch of bloods happy. I mean honestly, why is the world a better place tomorrow when tookie is dead vs. if he were to keep living? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Krakatau@Dec 12 2005, 10:18 PM Fuck, what does he have now.... 45 minutes or so? Killing him serves no benefit. That is where I stand. Quoted post No, it's that the world is gonna be a safer place, or that seems to be what everyone here seems to think... ...Inaccurately, at that. I doubt Tookie had anything to do with the Crips being what they are today...shit didn't really get get rolling till the mid eighties, when crack blew the fuck up...and well after he was locked up, so it's a tough call. I lived in LA when all that stuff got publicized right after "Colors" came out...but, you know what? Sean Penn and Robert Duvall had to bring it to Kansas so some soccer mom can say, "OOOOH, kill that scary negro! KILL HIM DEAD!" I never had anyone from my family get killed...however, my girlfriend did get held up at gunpoint a few months ago. So, I DO know a little bit about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by IRONHEAD+Dec 13 2005, 01:19 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IRONHEAD - Dec 13 2005, 01:19 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by dumy@Dec 13 2005, 07:04 AM <!--QuoteBegin-dumy@Dec 13 2005, 12:19 AM I'm against the death penalty. Getting blood on your hands because of someone else doing the same thing doesn't solve anything. I sympathize with the families of the victims of convicts on death row but it really strikes the wrong chord with me when those same people seek closure through death as well. Quoted post qouting myself in support of the intelligent people on this forum. Quoted post this makes perfect sense. you are intelligent because you believe that everyone has a right to stay alive and have no sort of punishment whatsoever. murderers, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, etc. well all they have to do is say "geez, im sorry, i was really wrong for sodomizing your 80 year old grandma and then cutting her into 87 pieces....you cant kill me that'd just be insane. i deserve to go back into society and make a noteworthy contribution because i am "rehabilitated"" fuck that man. if you believe in something like that i think id be a little quick to call you something other than intelligent. Quoted post [/b] did I ever say that I wanted mutherfuckers back on the streets? Rapists, Serial Killers, pedophiles, really, who the fuck do you take me for man? THE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP, I don't know how to fix it but I know for damn sure it ain't up to me play God on someone else. Doesn't it strike you as odd that you hold murder up as a crime punishable only by inflicting that same act upon the person accused, really how does that do anything but make you like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 eye for an eye. tooth for a tooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by ^ . ^@Dec 13 2005, 12:28 AM eye for an eye. tooth for a tooth. Quoted post Hammurabi's code is outdated, dumbass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRONHEAD Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 true, how many lives have been ruined because of what he helped create? no it dosent bring anyone back if they kill him. it dosent bring anyone back if they change his sentence to life in prison. then it just costs alot of money. what does it do if you release him back into society? does it make you feel any safer letting your daughter walk down the street knowing that people of this guys caliber are out walking the streets as well? even if they have been deemed rehabilitated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by IRONHEAD@Dec 13 2005, 12:29 AM true, how many lives have been ruined because of what he helped create? no it dosent bring anyone back if they kill him. it dosent bring anyone back if they change his sentence to life in prison. then it just costs alot of money. what does it do if you release him back into society? does it make you feel any safer letting your daughter walk down the street knowing that people of this guys caliber are out walking the streets as well? even if they have been deemed rehabilitated. Quoted post Nope, wrong again. Killing people costs a lot more than giving them room and board until they just up and die on their own. Most people really don't need help reaching the goal in that area, there is no reason to speed them along. AND AGAIN, DUMBASS, NO ONE WANTS HIM ON THE STREETS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by mackfatsoe@Dec 13 2005, 06:21 AM Ironhead and others who are adamant about him dying. He killed four people. How many young lives has he saved with his work with gang members? I'm not saying he can some how "work off" the mistakes he made, but how many more lives could he save if he were given the chance to live? Quoted post If you want to play "tip the scales": how many people have become addicted to drugs that the crips made readily available; how many people have died from crip-related gang violence; etc., etc.? I'm not stressing over this guy getting his come-uppance. If this were 100 years ago, he would have been hung in the town square within a week of the murders. Meanwhile, there's a whole lot of other shit going on in the world that demands our immediate attention, but this has the backing of Hollywood and the glitz and glamor of gang violence so it's all you see on the news. I just listened to Bush say that "we will accept nothing less than a complete victory" in Iraq over the "terrorists and Saddamists". China's reverse-engineering the US missiles they bought off of Al Queda, which we supplied to them during the Cold War. World War 3 is brewing and all everyone in this country seems to be concerned about is a death penalty meme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by ^ . ^@Dec 13 2005, 01:28 AM eye for an eye. tooth for a tooth. Quoted post I keep saying over and over that this guy is actively helping kids escape gang life, but no one on the opposite side of the arguement wants to respond. I think the bottom line is, you value the lives of the people murdered by Tookie more than you value the lives of the black inner city gang members he is working to save. edit: haha, fermentor just responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by fermentor666@Dec 13 2005, 01:32 AM Meanwhile, there's a whole lot of other shit going on in the world that demands our immediate attention, but this has the backing of Hollywood and the glitz and glamor of gang violence so it's all you see on the news. I just listened to Bush say that "we will accept nothing less than a complete victory" in Iraq over the "terrorists and Saddamists". China's reverse-engineering the US missiles they bought off of Al Queda, which we supplied to them during the Cold War. World War 3 is brewing and all everyone in this country seems to be concerned about is a death penalty meme. Quoted post ^^maybe that's part of the plan? FERMENTOR'S A SMART NIGGA LISTEN TO HIM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tough Love Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by dumy+Dec 13 2005, 01:27 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumy - Dec 13 2005, 01:27 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by IRONHEAD@Dec 13 2005, 01:19 AM Originally posted by dumy@Dec 13 2005, 07:04 AM <!--QuoteBegin-dumy@Dec 13 2005, 12:19 AM I'm against the death penalty. Getting blood on your hands because of someone else doing the same thing doesn't solve anything. I sympathize with the families of the victims of convicts on death row but it really strikes the wrong chord with me when those same people seek closure through death as well. Quoted post qouting myself in support of the intelligent people on this forum. Quoted post this makes perfect sense. you are intelligent because you believe that everyone has a right to stay alive and have no sort of punishment whatsoever. murderers, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, etc. well all they have to do is say "geez, im sorry, i was really wrong for sodomizing your 80 year old grandma and then cutting her into 87 pieces....you cant kill me that'd just be insane. i deserve to go back into society and make a noteworthy contribution because i am "rehabilitated"" fuck that man. if you believe in something like that i think id be a little quick to call you something other than intelligent. Quoted post did I ever say that I wanted mutherfuckers back on the streets? Rapists, Serial Killers, pedophiles, really, who the fuck do you take me for man? THE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP, I don't know how to fix it but I know for damn sure it ain't up to me play God on someone else. Doesn't it strike you as odd that you hold murder up as a crime punishable only by inflicting that same act upon the person accused, really how does that do anything but make you like them. Quoted post [/b] you fix things by not being capitalist, and not having ppl who feed off greed to better their own welfare, thereby eliminating any need for crime in order for self benefit because everyone would be equaly valued and respected and have a place in society more or less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CACashRefund Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Sparoism@Dec 12 2005, 09:59 PM "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."- Noted wifebeater, Mahatma Gandhi Quoted post he was a wife beater, from the pictures ive seen i doubt he could beat his own meat let alone his wife. /no homo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 krakatau- i dont think having a good debate involves calling people dumbasses because you dont agree with their views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by fermentor666@Dec 13 2005, 12:32 AM meme. Quoted post Oh snap. Agreed and apologies, little asian character looking thing. Second time I've had the debate on here, and I was just pissed at all the people dropping the "Yo, what about when he shoots your daughter because you didn't want to kill him" dumbassery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 So, how did Arnie suffer from this? The murders happened around the time he was still smoking weed and shooting up steroids with his Mr. Universe buddies. When Tookie went on Death Row is around the time the first "Conan" movie came out. Just as a timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by CACashRefund+Dec 12 2005, 10:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CACashRefund - Dec 12 2005, 10:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Sparoism@Dec 12 2005, 09:59 PM "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."- Noted wifebeater, Mahatma Gandhi Quoted post he was a wife beater, from the pictures ive seen i doubt he could beat his own meat let alone his wife. /no homo Quoted post [/b]Yeah, I read the story. Dude did lots of good for the Indian people but he was no saint on a personal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezpot Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Here is Tookie's apology message from his website... Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men. Raymond was murdered in 1979. But if he were here, I believe he would be as troubled as I am by the Crips legacy. So today I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did. As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle. I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life. I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others. I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions. Amani (Peace), Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Surviving Crips Co-Founder, April 13, 1997 He sure gloats about being a founding member of the crips, he probably wrote kids books so uneducated gang bangers could read them too. :haha: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRONHEAD Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 there is many problems in the world yes. so what these people are saying is that everyone deserves to live. are we drawing a line anywhere? ok forget the whole back into society thing. we'll assume that someone who is serving life in prison really has no chance of getting out. you people think they should all just sit in jail forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "World War 3 is brewing and all everyone in this country seems to be concerned about is a death penalty meme." No shit...just wait till they bring back the draft. You'll see just about EVERYONE here screaming bloody murder...especially all the ones of draft age. Bush only has three more years to kill us all...and, from the looks of things, he's working overtime. And we're not even paying attention...hmmmm, wonder what's going on over in "Brickslayers"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 wow 12oz is full of debates tonight..I took upon myself to name the teams TEAM A ALSO KNOWN AS: SMART: FERMENTOR SPAROISM MACKFATSOE KRAKATAU* HARVEY** TEAM B WHO GO BY THE MONIKER OF MISGUIDED: IRONHEAD SUGAR RANDOM ROOKIES NOW, LET'S E-FIGHT! *MOST of the time **suprisingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams...reut/index.html Williams claim of founding Crips is disputed Gang expert: Crips 'helped destroy the black community' LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- The debate over the imminent execution of Stanley Tookie Williams hinges partly on his claim that he founded the notorious Crips street gang -- then renounced a criminal life in a quest for redemption. Though Williams, who is scheduled to die Tuesday, maintains his innocence in the four 1979 murders that landed him on death row, he takes credit for founding the Crips a decade earlier with another teenager, Raymond Washington, and says he now regrets his role. Prosecutors question the 51-year-old Williams' sincerity in repudiating the Crips. Experts say the convicted killer and his supporters have also overstated his role in founding the gang -- which has a reputation for violence -- as a way of emphasizing his claim of redemption. "Actually, everybody but Tookie gives Raymond Washington credit for starting (the Crips)," said Malcolm Klein, an emeritus professor of sociology at the University of Southern California who has studied gangs since 1962. "Instead of founding the gang, which is what Tookie claims, what you're really talking about is emerging as a dominant figure," Klein told Reuters. "Because he is such a dominant, violent, articulate bad guy, rather than leadership you're talking about influence." Latino gangs first surfaced in Los Angeles after the turn of the century, historians say, and black gangs may have formed in the 1930s. Blacks moved to Los Angeles in large numbers during World War II and those gangs gained strength until the mid-1960s, when youths were drawn to the civil-rights movement and radical political groups like the Black Panthers. Williams as anti-hero By the end of that decade, the Panthers had faded and 15-year-old Washington stepped into a power vacuum, creating a gang he initially called the Baby Avenues. The origins of the name "Crips" are hazy, though one theory attributes it to a disabled member known as a "cripple" to his comrades. "The Crips were already well established when Tookie came on the scene," said retired Los Angeles County Sheriff's Sgt. and gang expert Wes McBride. "(That he created the Crips) is part of his mystique that his supporters are using to try get him commuted. It gives him a stature as an anti-hero kind of person that has now turned his life around." McBride says Williams, known by his middle name Tookie or the nickname "Big Took," helped build and solidify the Crips. The gang caught the imagination of the media after killing the son of a prominent black attorney and entering the popular culture through Hollywood films. The Bloods emerged as rivals to the Crips in the early 1970s and the two gangs have feuded ever since. McBride dismissed as "nonsense" claims by Williams that he started the Crips to defend his neighborhood against other gangs. Williams has become a cause for anti-death penalty activists, including rapper and former Crips member Snoop Dogg and Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx, who starred in a sympathetic TV movie about the convicted murderer. His case is one of several that have drawn attention to the U.S. use of the death penalty, as America recently passed its 1,000th execution since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstituted capital punishment in 1976. McBride said there are now some 200 Crips gangs, though most are only loosely affiliated, with some 25,000 members in the Los Angeles area. Hundreds of people, mostly young black men, are killed each year in California by gangs. Washington was killed by a rival gang member in 1979. "There's not a whole lot of difference between the Crips of today and the Crips of yesteryear, only there's more of them," McBride said. "They are more involved in narcotics trafficking than they used to be, but Crips will do whatever they can to make money. Bank robberies, armored car robberies." "Their legacy is that they've helped destroy the black community," McBride said. "Gangs kill communities just as surely as they kill people." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Fermentor, I think it's a big stretch to put the future criminal activities of the crips on this guys shoulders. The truth is, gangs are a seemingly permanent reality in inner city, and you can't say that without Tookie kids wouldnt be doing the same crazy shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Sparoism@Dec 13 2005, 06:41 AM "World War 3 is brewing and all everyone in this country seems to be concerned about is a death penalty meme." No shit...just wait till they bring back the draft. You'll see just about EVERYONE here screaming bloody murder...especially all the ones of draft age. Bush only has three more years to kill us all...and, from the looks of things, he's working overtime. And we're not even paying attention...hmmmm, wonder what's going on over in "Brickslayers"? Quoted post I'm telling you, I just read some of the scariest shit ever about what's happening in communist China. There's a real storm coming and it's going to outlast the Bush presidency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 misguided? i wouldnt really say that having an opposing view is "misguided". we all have different views, morals,etc. It doesnt make them wrong.Just different. Shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ^^^FERMENTOR, THREAD?? at the least the link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isor357 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 yep. in the old days the leader would fearlessly lead his troops into battle........ oh horse. alot of shit has changed. Nowadays things like this are political distraction. the prez loves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folgers Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 :hatred: on the real half of the replies ive read on this thread has been some of the most ignorant shit that ive ever heard,should he be slayed???personally i cant be the judge of that.considering the good things and the bad things hes done though its obvious to see that death is in his karma.i can tell you this much though him talking about him looking like a snitch to little kids that hes trying to help,you gotta be an oblvious motherfucker to tell me that shit isnt the truth when it comes to younger cats saying that he created a race that kill each other???wrong!!!man decides that shit on his own.but while were on the topic what about movie directors, celebrities any body in general that portray these roles of genocide theyre not helping out. if you ask me i think parents not playing their role is what allows shit like this to happen so often and with ignorant parents cycles like this will repeat themselves.but unlike many parens or people in general he took the time out to reach out to t he youth and even the bloods and the crips..truth is our government doesnt want to help out the gang violence situation and theyre about to prove it, it would be more understandable in my eyes if one of the relatives killed him themselves but truth is either way its not gonna solve shit. i lived in a third world ass country for a good amount of my life where starting atleast at 11 or 12 your average kid is ready to stab if not atleast swinging bats at heads and thats not just one area its the whole country i wish we had a cat like this there .as for GEEZPOT your comment about innocent taxpayers blah,blah,blah bullshit!!!!!get real homey im assumimng you write up if your on this website .please have some fuckin sense when you talk about taxpaying in a graffitti site cause for one were all a contribution for this useless taxpaying,two our money is sending soldiers to kill innocent families on the otherside ofthe world,three what the fuck is our money going into ???the school system still sucks ,aids and cancer are still around...etc,point blank i could go on forever and could of just ended at the fact that im pretty sure all of us contribute to tax inflation by tagging(which i really dont care cause i gotta live too) and regardless of whether we bomb or some guilty or non guilty cat is staying alive in prison ,our money is going into shit!!! either way it was a useless argument, and this cat is doing something that i know half of the people on here wouldnt bother doing for what is expected to be our future,peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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