dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by ^ . ^@Dec 13 2005, 01:47 AM misguided? i wouldnt really say that having an opposing view is "misguided". we all have different views, morals,etc. It doesnt make them wrong.Just different. Shit. Quoted post I also said "lets e-fight!" I was trying to lighten the mood by poking a little humor at our debate as well as ourselves. You are aok with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Yo folgers, break that up into paragraphs and I might read it. And Fermentor. get over into Crossfire with the china thread, I want to read the article. China is going to rock house in the next few unless we dodge the bullet via H5N1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezpot Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Dumy, I hope I'm not one of the misguided "Random Rookies" This is a great debate btw. :love2: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 sorry. went right over my head... which isnt a big surprise. i hafta sleep, this thread is pissing me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ^Are you the one that hooked me up with some massage therapy technique for my head because I had some crazy sinus infection long ago? I think maybe so. Regardless, I don't think your misguided. I just don't agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRONHEAD Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 im serious though, im trying to understand your way of thinking here dumy. you say that he deserves to live because no one can just play god and kill him. isnt someone playing god by keeping him incarcerated for the rest of his life? doomed both ways really? where is the line? well just keep all of the terrible people in one big prison for all eternity. im sorry that sounds ridiculous to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^ . ^ Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 yea that was me. :) its ok. I'm a goofy bitch. I wouldnt agree with me either. off to bed. :love: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by mackfatsoe@Dec 13 2005, 06:46 AM Fermentor, I think it's a big stretch to put the future criminal activities of the crips on this guys shoulders. The truth is, gangs are a seemingly permanent reality in inner city, and you can't say that without Tookie kids wouldnt be doing the same crazy shit. Quoted post It's not his role in creating the gang, it was his role in perpetuating the gang. Here's a quote from an article posted on the first page: "By 1992, he was a changed man, he says. His courage, once based on violence and indifference, now was based on faith and redemption, he says." The timespan between his conviction and imprisonment in 1981 and 1992 is over a decade. He says, himself: "Williams arrived at San Quentin's death row on April 20, 1981. He continued his trouble-making ways during his early days in prison. "I gave this place hell," he says." The crips started in 1971, he was perhaps the most prominent figurehead of the gang and was most-assuredly running things for a good chunk of time while in prison. I know that people's minds are made up on the matter, but it helps to get the facts straight. Especially when California is such a media fantasy-land that they elected the fucking Terminator as their governor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Chinese Communism is falling apart faster than a cheap suit. And, the old men in charge of it make Bush look like a rank amateur as far as the kinds of shit they're willing to pull to keep their shell game propped up. This country has 229 years of "diplomatic" experience behind it...China has 6000 years under its belt. Sadly, I believe Fermentor is right. We may be in for a rude shock soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by dumy@Dec 13 2005, 06:47 AM ^^^FERMENTOR, THREAD?? at the least the link? Quoted post I read it in one of the weeklies out here, I'll have to dig it out of my bag to find the website. I'm on it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 At least we're finally worried about some real shit...that hollowtips thread was kinda serious at times, but it can't hold this topic's jock ANY day of the week. And it's up to 9 pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 two minutes by my count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Okay, fermentor I understand what you're saying now, and I agree with you on some level. But the fact that he, and he alone has the chance to save so many gang members from the life he chose, that doesnt even make you think twice about killing him? About not even giving him the chance to do more good for the people that need it most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Thanks, dumy, but I just want to be on the compassionate side, is all. Killing is killing, no matter who pulls the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezpot Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by folgers@Dec 12 2005, 10:48 PM as for GEEZPOT your comment about innocent taxpayers blah,blah,blah bullshit!!!!!get real homey im assumimng you write up if your on this website .please have some fuckin sense when you talk about taxpaying in a graffitti site cause for one were all a contribution for this useless taxpaying,two our money is sending soldiers to kill innocent families on the otherside ofthe world,three what the fuck is our money going into ???the school system still sucks ,aids and cancer are still around... Quoted post In the big picture there is lots of unecessary tax paying, but my opinion is criminals convicted on death row should be executed and not held in prison for over 30 years wasting tax payers money. The warden probably gets a nice fat paycheque percentage from keeping death row inmates alive, I don't understand it, he is on death row! He will be killed on death row so why wait and waste everyones money, kill them and free up some more loot for more important issues. :huh2: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I'm on the left coast...he's got an hour. I'm keeping an eye on this on a couple different newsfeeds. Opera is the joint, by the way. (random plug for my web browser) Fifty seven minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 This is the point where it becomes a stalemate. I also have to sleep. Really, the absurdity of the matter is that he has been sitting on death row for 25 years. I forgot the statistics, but California has a death row population in the hundreds, if not thousands, and since they re-enacted the death penalty however many years ago only a handful have actually been executed. No arguement on that, I just find that fact absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 no doubt Sparo, you still haven't responded to my message. shoutout to fermentor for keeping it this real even when we just chilling at the bar having drinks together... or when we are gnibmob spots.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by geezpot@Dec 13 2005, 01:02 AM In the big picture there is lots of unecessary tax paying, but my opinion is criminals convicted on death row should be executed and not held in prison for over 30 years wasting tax payers money. The warden probably gets a nice fat paycheque percentage from keeping death row inmates alive, I don't understand it, he is on death row! He will be killed on death row so why wait and waste everyones money, kill them and free up some more loot for more important issues. :huh2: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quoted post The fact that you spelled 'check' with a 'Q' makes me wonder. Here's a pretty good reason for people to sit on death row costing shit tons of money: juries can be wrong. Just because there is more than one person weighing in on a decision doesn't make the decision correct. Cali should sub contract death row to Texas. They'll git r dun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Oaky, this is long, but I think it definitely belongs here...it's the clemency statement issued today by the Governator. Text Of Gov. Schwarzenegger's Clemency Decision POSTED: 3:07 pm PST December 12, 2005 Here is the complete statement by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denying clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams. Stanley Williams has been convicted of brutally murdering four people during two separate armed robberies in February and March 1979. A California jury sentenced him to death, and he is scheduled for execution on December 13, 2005. During the early morning hours of February 28, 1979, Williams and three others went on a robbery spree. Around 4 a.m., they entered a 7-Eleven store where Albert Owens was working by himself. Here, Williams, armed with his pump-action shotgun, ordered Owens to a back room and shot him twice in the back while he lay face down on the floor. Williams and his accomplices made off with about $120 from the store's cash register. After leaving the 7-Eleven store, Williams told the others that he killed Albert Owens because he did not want any witnesses. Later that morning, Williams recounted shooting Albert Owens, saying "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes. On March 11, 1979, less than two weeks later, Williams, again armed with his shotgun, robbed a family operated motel and shot and killed three members of the family: the father, Yen-I Yang, who was shot once in the torso and once in the arm while he was laying on a sofa; the mother, Tsai-Shai Lin, who was shot once in the abdomen and once in the back; and the daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was shot once in her face. For these murders, Williams made away with approximately $100 in cash. Williams also told others about the details of these murders and referred to the victims as "Buddha-heads." Now, his appeals exhausted, Williams seeks mercy in the form of a petition for clemency. He claims that he deserves clemency because he has undergone a personal transformation and is redeemed, and because there were problems with his trial that undermine the fairness of the jury's verdict. Williams' case has been thoroughly reviewed in the 24 years since his convictions and death sentence. In addition to his direct appeal to the California Supreme Court, Williams has filed five state habeas corpus petitions, each of which has been rejected. The federal courts have also reviewed his convictions and death sentence. Williams filed a federal habeas corpus petition, and the U.S. District Court denied it. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals confirmed this decision. Williams was also given a number of post-trial evidentiary hearings, and he and his lawyers had the opportunity at these hearings to present evidence that was not heard at trial. The jury's decision has withstood these challenges. In all, Williams' case has been the subject of at least eight substantive judicial opinions. Prior to the filing of the clemency petition, the state court habeas process was completed on June 21, 1995, when the California Supreme Court denied Williams' fourth state habeas corpus petition. The federal court habeas process was completed on October 11, 2005, when the United States Supreme Court denied Williams' writ of certiorari. The claim that Williams received an unfair trial was the subject of this extensive litigation in the state and federal courts. The courts considered the sufficiency of his counsel, the strategic nature of counsel's decisions during the penalty phase of Williams' trial, the adequacy and reliability of testimony from informants, whether Williams was prejudiced by security measures employed during his trial, whether he was competent to stand trial, whether the prosecutor impermissibly challenged potential jurors on the basis of race, and whether his jury was improperly influenced by Williams' threats made against them. There is no need to rehash or second guess the myriad findings of the courts over 24 years of litigation. The possible irregularities in Williams' trial have been thoroughly and carefully reviewed by the courts, and there is no reason to disturb the judicial decisions that uphold the jury's decisions that he is guilty of these four murders and should pay with his life. The basis of Williams' clemency request is not innocence. Rather, the basis of the request is the "personal redemption Stanley Williams has experienced and the positive impact of the message he sends" (quoting Williams' own clemency reply). But Williams' claim of innocence remains a key factor to evaluating his claim of personal redemption. It is impossible to separate Williams' claim of innocence from his claim of redemption. Cumulatively, the evidence demonstrating Williams is guilty of these murders is strong and compelling. It includes: (1) eyewitness testimony of Alfred Coward, who was one of Williams' accomplices in the 7-Eleven shooting; (2) ballistics evidence proving that the shotgun casing found at the scene of the motel murders was fired from Williams' shotgun; (3) testimony from Samuel Coleman that Williams confessed that he had robbed and killed some people on Vermont Street (where the motel was located); (4) testimony from James and Esther Garrett that Williams admitted to them that he committed both sets of murders; and (5) testimony from jailhouse informant George Oglesby that Williams confessed to the motel murders and conspired with Oglesby to escape from county jail. The trial evidence is bolstered by information from Tony Sims, who has admitted to being an accomplice in the 7-Eleven murder. Sims did not testify against Williams at trial, but he was later convicted of murder for his role in Albert Owens' death. During his trial and subsequent parole hearings, Sims has repeatedly stated under oath that Williams was the shooter. Based on the cumulative weight of the evidence, there is no reason to second guess the jury's decision of guilt or raise significant doubts or serious reservations about Williams' convictions and death sentence. He murdered Albert Owens and Yen-I Yang, Yee-Chen Lin and Tsai-Shai Lin in cold blood in two separate incidents that were just weeks apart. But Williams claims that he is particularly deserving of clemency because he has reformed and been redeemed for his violent past. Williams' claim of redemption triggers an inquiry into his atonement for all his transgressions. Williams protests that he has no reason to apologize for these murders because he did not commit them. But he is guilty, and a close look at Williams' post-arrest and post-conviction conduct tells a story that is different from redemption. After Williams was arrested for these crimes, and while he was awaiting trial, he conspired to escape from custody by blowing up a jail transportation bus and killing the deputies guarding the bus. There are detailed escape plans in Williams' own handwriting. Williams never executed this plan, but his co-conspirator implicated Williams in the scheme. The fact that Williams conspired to murder several others to effectuate his escape from jail while awaiting his murder trial is consistent with guilt, not innocence. And the timing of the motel murders -- less than two weeks after the murder of Albert Owens -- shows a callous disregard for human life. Williams has written books that instruct readers to avoid the gang lifestyle and to stay out of prison. In 1996, a Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series was published. In 1998, "Life in Prison" was published. In 2004, Williams published a memoir entitled "Blue Rage, Black Redemption." He has also recently (since 1995) tried to preach a message of gang avoidance and peacemaking, including a protocol for street peace to be used by opposing gangs. It is hard to assess the effect of such efforts in concrete terms, but the continued pervasiveness of gang violence leads one to question the efficacy of Williams' message. Williams co-founded the Crips, a notorious street gang that has contributed and continues to contribute to predatory and exploitative violence. The dedication of Williams' book "Life in Prison" casts significant doubt on his personal redemption. This book was published in 1998, several years after Williams' claimed redemptive experience. Specifically, the book is dedicated to "Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, Dhoruba Al-Mujahid, George Jackson, Mumia Abu-Jamal and the countless other men, women and youths who have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars." The mix of individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts and some have been convicted of committing heinous murders, including the killing of law enforcement. But the inclusion of George Jackson (a militant activist who founded the Black Guerilla Family prison gang and was charged with the murder of a San Quentin prison guard) on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems. There is also little mention or atonement in his writings and his plea for clemency of the countless murders committed by the Crips following the lifestyle Williams once espoused. The senseless killing that has ruined many families, particularly in African-American communities, in the name of the Crips and gang warfare is a tragedy of our modern culture. One would expect more explicit and direct reference to this byproduct of his former lifestyle in Williams' writings and apology for this tragedy, but it exists only through innuendo and inference. Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise? Stanley Williams insists he is innocent, and that he will not and should not apologize or otherwise atone for the murders of the four victims in this case. Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption. In this case, the one thing that would be the clearest indication of complete remorse and full redemption is the one thing Williams will not do. Clemency decisions are always difficult, and this one is no exception. After reviewing and weighing the showing Williams has made in support of his clemency request, there is nothing that compels me to nullify the jury's decision of guilt and sentence and the many court decisions during the last 24 years upholding the jury's decision with a grant of clemency. Therefore, based on the totality of circumstances in this case, Williams' request for clemency is denied. ----------------------------- And, there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezpot Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Its almost like a waste of time for re-instating the death penalty. I agree that there is some crazy stuff brewing in Asia and Bush is losing allies quicker than myspace virgins. ;) <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by dumy@Dec 12 2005, 11:08 PM no doubt Sparo, you still haven't responded to my message. shoutout to fermentor for keeping it this real even when we just chilling at the bar having drinks together... or when we are gnibmob spots.. Quoted post What can I say? I'm a busy boy. I'll get on that soon. Forty five minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezpot Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Krakatau@Dec 12 2005, 11:09 PM The fact that you spelled 'check' with a 'Q' makes me wonder. Quoted post Its a canadian variant thing, kinda like color/colour. Seriously go cheque it out. <bad pun. :haha: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ^hahaha.that was bad, but good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Haha, after I posted that I noticed that I spelled decision with an 's' in front of the 'c'. Twice. I'm tired, but staying up until tookie dies. Anyone who may have skipped the big article above, it's worth reading. Even more so when done in Arnold's voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackfatsoe Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by geezpot@Dec 13 2005, 02:16 AM <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quoted post You really need to stop with this shit. No, but really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sparoism Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Sparoism+Dec 12 2005, 11:14 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparoism - Dec 12 2005, 11:14 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-dumy@Dec 12 2005, 11:08 PM no doubt Sparo, you still haven't responded to my message. shoutout to fermentor for keeping it this real even when we just chilling at the bar having drinks together... or when we are gnibmob spots.. Quoted post What can I say? I'm a busy boy. I'll get on that soon. Forty five minutes. Quoted post [/b] It's on the way, dumy....coming to a PC near....YOU. Thirty five minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by mackfatsoe+Dec 13 2005, 02:23 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mackfatsoe - Dec 13 2005, 02:23 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-geezpot@Dec 13 2005, 02:16 AM <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quoted post You really need to stop with this shit. No, but really. Quoted post [/b] yeah, not to sound like a dick but, I would like you so much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folgers Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 In the big picture there is lots of unecessary tax paying, but my opinion is criminals convicted on death row should be executed and not held in prison for over 30 years wasting tax payers money. The warden probably gets a nice fat paycheque percentage from keeping death row inmates alive, I don't understand it, he is on death row! He will be killed on death row so why wait and waste everyones money, kill them and free up some more loot for more important issues. :huh2: <this emoticon best describes the above statement Quoted post i have to agree with you on the warden getting some loot out of the deal,but think about our money going into more important issues ???seriously ,thats what s supposely has been going on for ages in this country,maybe he cant hand back the lives he took ,but atleast he took aim at the gang violence issue in a more sensible manner instead of the way the system wants to see it be done which would be killing each other until were all extinct,this country was built on useles hatred regardless if you really wanna break down the knowledge .thats man kind for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isor357 Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 killing is merciful someone should do me in i desere it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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