Wholetrains

[nG]

Originally posted by socks

and if there is such a large source of graffiti media in europe why not send photos there.... a good metro panel is a good metro panel regardless of continent... this would also divert attention from local authorities who might read your Clouts your Vapours and your LSD but probably dont read XG, subwaynet, UP....etc.etc.(too many to name)

 

i think cope2 realised this a long time ago. he's got subways, streets and legal walls in everything: wanted, graphotism, XG, stylefile, brain damage etc etc.

[niseNSF]

re: houses getting raided - you dont get your house raided *after* you get caught...you get your house raided if they *think* (and can get a warrant) you are doing trains. they use what they find in that raid to arrest you.

 

re: what socks said: good points man. heres what i think: shots in transit are diffuclt here..the only real way your gonna something is if they happen to miss it. i dont think this is cause american transit systems are tougher or anything, i just think its more like "whoa, what the fuck, pull that car out of service!" cause they get hit so rarely here, its like a big deal. whereas in europe, it gets done often enough everywhere that its not like a crazy rare event. so, from my limited experience, most flicks are gonna be night flicks in the yard or layup. however, even if you do get a shot in transit, you could 'claim' to have just taken the photo, like henry c style, sure, but thats gonna be you and your lawyer trying to convinve a judge that you just *happen* to like graffiti enough to have been there 12 hours later taking a photo of it.....like i said, since theres nothing on any trains here, you really cant proclaim to be like 'benching' subways - it will loook bad regardless if you have photos of graffiti on trains. its not an open and shut case, and im sure if you can get an ill lawyer, you could beat it, but most writers dont have the money to afford really good lawyers (often 200-300 US dollars per hour, with 2000 dollar retainer fees). so, its just kinda complex.

 

and as for amiling flix to the european mags, theres another american thing that differs from europeans: we are usually very much against mailing your own photos to magazines. its considered self promotion and its frowned upon. as dope as Cope2 is, people do ridicule his habit of promoting himself (book, video, mailing his own trains to every mag on earth, etc) many US writers, myself included, were raised to believe that your work should be put out in the public and if people wanna flick it or publish it, great. but mailing shit into mags distorts the lines....there are kids we call "stamp lickers" who paint like 20 freight trains a year but they mail EVERY last one to mags, get published, and then create the image that they are getting benched all the time. which is weak.

 

therefore, theres this tradition of not really mailing your own shit anywhere..the feeling is, if you do enough work on streets or on trains, objective 3rd parties will flick it and youll get the rep you deserve. like someone like revok from LA: he does the work, and people publish him regardless of whether they know him or are down with him..he just earns the press by working hard. on the other hand (i wont name names) you have american magazines that merely publish the 20 or so writers they know or from ther local city/crews, along with people like revok or cope2 or king157 or whoever. so, that gets frowned upon.

 

i have to confess, i dont really know how that dynamic plays out in europe, but the sense i get is that its OK to mail your own flicks to magaznes and stuff like that. am i wrong? im really not sure. but in europe, how do you feel about someone who paints 20 panelsa year but gets all 20 published in a mag, vs. someone who does 100 panels a year but only gets one or two in a mag?? who has really earned the rep?

 

is graff about how many people see it, no matter what the means to the end? i tend to think not, and i think theres a real measure of rep beyond just what gets published...and for me thats the streets. you cant fake a roof top. and fr8 trains in the US are really easy generally, and they more about a different, more patient form of graffiti....imagine if you had 1000 panels running, but over the entire continent of europe, and you were racing with other dudes trying to get as many as you can, mastering what goes to what region, on what types of cars and what not....its a lot different than subways/commuters, but it also has its own skill/talent and while its less dramatic, its more about patience and persistence...different version of a similar passion: the adrenaline rush verus the patient slow boil. and real fr8 heads in america will tell you you cant fake/manufacture that rep either....people send their shit into mags and get published, but the rel heads keep track of who *Really* gets benched in every region of the USA. if you are popping up in lots of mags but no ones ever benched you, it becomes immediately clear that you are a stamp licker and someone is mailing your photos to magazines, manufactuiring your rep.

 

SO, long story short, even the few americans that are getting flicks of clean trains have another level of built-in aversion to self publicizing their work...for lack of a better word, its considered "tacky" here...even the great cope2, as i said, gets criticized for it...people think its really tacky to make an entire movie about yourself. and i dont disagree really.

 

just to be clear again: im not dissing either world..just trying to shed some light on what i think contributes to the big gap in US/Euro graff culture. i really think it boils down to the fact that in europe, as much as the *doing* of graff is illegal and dangerous, for some reason the after product is OK to puvblish and spread around and be open about (mags, videos, festivals, specialized paint,etc) whereas in the states, *doing* graffiti is not the only illegal part.....publicizing it just as dangerous and frowned upon. no festivals, hardly any videos, defintiely no paint made for graffiti, etc,etc.

 

i think if you took an american and put him in europe, hed do trains just as much as yall do. and vice versa, if you take a european train writer and plop him in boston or nyc or philly or dc, he will be in jail after a few months of trying to do clean trains regularly. it is quite easy to come here, get over on trains, then leave and dissappear. but its like the old rule of "dont shit where you eat" for those of us who live here, we are gonna cut our careers short by doing cleans locally often. some ways around it have been rocking fake names or aliases, or travelling to other cities. and, there are lots of people doing just that. and they have photos of it all. but no where to show them. sucks, but, hey its what we have to deal with.

 

as a solution to this, i propose that any of you europeans invite me over to your house so i can paint lots of trains with you all. that would be pretty cope. i mean dope.

 

:p

[T.T Boy]

Originally posted by cheerleader

 

i have to confess, i dont really know how that dynamic plays out in europe, but the sense i get is that its OK to mail your own flicks to magaznes and stuff like that. am i wrong? im really not sure. but in europe, how do you feel about someone who paints 20 panelsa year but gets all 20 published in a mag, vs. someone who does 100 panels a year but only gets one or two in a mag?? who has really earned the rep?

 

 

put it this way, i could put together a freight magazine monthly if i sat at the lines and benched. if i sat in say, london victoria street station (only an example of a busy station for commuters and subways) it would take a long time to put out a mag of strictly commuters and subways caught on those lines.

 

basically, people will catch freights eventually, cleans, well, maybe. ive sat for hours on places like london (3 visits not one train seen in service) amsterdam central (2 trips seen one panel in service). thus, making it acceptable to send in a yard shot or the piece in traffic for the one line it makes. cause if you dont send it in, noone else can really. then again, there are a bunch of guys whom ive met personally and have hit a ton of trains regularly and get 0 play in the euro mags ive seen. who gets more respect? i dont know. i cant say. im only kind of a euro. youd better ask a real one yourself.

 

im not an expert, just kind of an observer giving a perspective.

[css_lover]

has cope ever been arrested for painting since he never masked himself and always showed loads of pics?

 

:confused:

[Locofanclub]

Originally posted by T.T Boy

put it this way, i could put together a freight magazine monthly if i sat at the lines and benched. if i sat in say, london victoria street station (only an example of a busy station for commuters and subways) it would take a long time to put out a mag of strictly commuters and subways caught on those lines.

 

basically, people will catch freights eventually, cleans, well, maybe. ive sat for hours on places like london (3 visits not one train seen in service) amsterdam central (2 trips seen one panel in service). thus, making it acceptable to send in a yard shot or the piece in traffic for the one line it makes. cause if you dont send it in, noone else can really. then again, there are a bunch of guys whom ive met personally and have hit a ton of trains regularly and get 0 play in the euro mags ive seen. who gets more respect? i dont know. i cant say. im only kind of a euro. youd better ask a real one yourself.

 

im not an expert, just kind of an observer giving a perspective.

TT, i can understand not seeing anything running in London, unless you get a tip off, or are REAL lucky. ( ive been going to London for years, and its only recently ive started seeing stuff running) But on 1 panel in 2 trips to Amsterdam....now thats unlucky fella! :eek:

[nG]

...and the first time i ever used the london tube i saw four panels in one day (and a LOT of bombing). my friend from north london has seen just two in a lifetime of using it. its definitely all down to luck.

[niseNSF]

TT: yeah thats what i thought (i just didnt wanna say definitively since i dont know firsthand): no one catches shit in traffic really anywhere, so in europe (at least the flicks in mags i see) its usually night flix or flix taken the next morning or whatever and therefore its pretty clear that its not only OK to mail in flix, its expected. hence another big difference...in the US, there is no mag to really send flix to and theres the whole etiquette against mailing flicks, and the whole legal issue of the heat those published flicks will bring you.

[T.T Boy]

yeah i was pretty unlucky in amsterdam. but now its so fucked in holland it seems noone is painting, or noone wants to paint anymore.

or the guys who are painting are the ones who owe so much in fines they dont give a fuck anymore and just keep bombing. i dunno, so many people have had amazing luck in holland painting. i got unlucky there twice. but super ultra hardcoregermany was always nice to me. oh, and you can still catch panels on the rome subway like it was 1978. but its mostly garbage. cheerleader you must be able to vouch for that?

[rental]

jesus fucking christ...all those whole cars....damn...damn.

[Locofanclub]

Originally posted by T.T Boy

yeah i was pretty unlucky in amsterdam. but now its so fucked in holland it seems noone is painting, or noone wants to paint anymore.

or the guys who are painting are the ones who owe so much in fines they dont give a fuck anymore and just keep bombing. i dunno, so many people have had amazing luck in holland painting. i got unlucky there twice. but super ultra hardcoregermany was always nice to me. oh, and you can still catch panels on the rome subway like it was 1978. but its mostly garbage. cheerleader you must be able to vouch for that?

Best wekend i had, which was a serious trainspot wekend, ended up with 40 different peices (No lie!) From panels, to end to ends....Knackered from running around getting photos..and the last thing i saw that i missed was a e-2-e with taylor and friends....damn! :crazy:

[T.T Boy]

lucky bastard.

[niseNSF]

tt: yeah i was actually hoping to meet you in roma for some panels this falll...but ive heard you scooted along to new pastures. shame. i might hafta bop over to the UK. but yeah i can attest to roma transit....babrely any buff, but almost all crap...the best things i saw running were some STAND panels. the locals are definitely killing streets with bombing (which is dope) but the piecing skills tend to be a tad lacking.

[johnny]

cheerleader throws out some nicely written answers to some of these arguments.

 

personally, aside from the sheer destructiveness of a wholetrain, i don't see the purpose of it. it comes down to me rather seeing 40 simples in a yard that will definitely overwhelm a system into running panels than trashing a single train that will most certainly run once right to the buff.

[nG]

Originally posted by johnny

cheerleader throws out some nicely written answers to some of these arguments.

 

personally, aside from the sheer destructiveness of a wholetrain, i don't see the purpose of it. it comes down to me rather seeing 40 simples in a yard that will definitely overwhelm a system into running panels than trashing a single train that will most certainly run once right to the buff.

 

come on, these are wholetrains. theres a couple on the stockholm subway in this thread - i know that you post in a lot of european steel threads so i'm sure you can appreciate what a mission that must have been, and to have daylight shots of it...:eek: even if it does run straight to the buff, thats some achievment.

 

these are one-offs for most writers. one of the eight-car MOAS efforts that Europe posted on page one took 56 cans of silver, all paid for. they could have done 100 panels on most of the cars in the yard, and caught them running, but they do panels and throwies every week anyway.

 

sorry i sound kind of patronising, its early in the morning and i can't phrase it any better. :D

[vynlone]

All this bullshit about yard conditions and mags is irrelevant. Whats the point? To have done the biggest fucking piece of transit graff you will ever see and its your tag on it! Who cares if no cunt sees it? There are plenty of writers to show it too anyway. Net and mag fame is cheap as chips.:lol:

[johnny]

Originally posted by nG

come on, these are wholetrains. theres a couple on the stockholm subway in this thread - i know that you post in a lot of european steel threads so i'm sure you can appreciate what a mission that must have been, and to have daylight shots of it...:eek: even if it does run straight to the buff, thats some achievment.

 

these are one-offs for most writers. one of the eight-car MOAS efforts that Europe posted on page one took 56 cans of silver, all paid for. they could have done 100 panels on most of the cars in the yard, and caught them running, but they do panels and throwies every week anyway.

 

sorry i sound kind of patronising, its early in the morning and i can't phrase it any better. :D

 

it comes down to preference man. if i sounded like i was dissing wholetrains up there i didn't mean to. my point is i'd do the opposite in my case but more power to anyone that can do these. i know what kind of time, effort, determination, timing, and coordination something like that takes and i'm certainly not trying to take away from that.

[Locofanclub]

Originally posted by T.T Boy

lucky bastard.

Being a professional trainspotter helps..... ;) :lol:

[nang'eds!]

ok afew pages back some silly yanky boyo was trying to talk about them starting the graff scene well, byatch! it was started by the romans many thousand's of years back it is wear the wored comes from so battyflex keep them un-learbn-ned fingers at bay next time you faggend..PS someone should definately get either the tox.03 one man window down w/t or the "mr easy peasy neasy(chrome) da planet's mine(colour) 1 man t2b w/t..for nnow peace euroope holds the scene!!!!!

[freeque]

Originally posted by nang'eds!

ok afew pages back some silly yanky boyo was trying to talk about them starting the graff scene well, byatch! it was started by the romans many thousand's of years back it is wear the wored comes from so battyflex keep them un-learbn-ned fingers at bay next time you faggend..PS someone should definately get either the tox.03 one man window down w/t or the "mr easy peasy neasy(chrome) da planet's mine(colour) 1 man t2b w/t..for nnow peace euroope holds the scene!!!!!

 

My spelling and grammar lessons obviously haven't done you any good... :crazy:

[johnny]

it goes back a lot farther than the romans... egyptians rocked out and so did much earlier cavemen.

[johnny]

The thing that I think you are missing is the fact that all train companies, transit authorities, police and the independent graffiti removal contractors make a record of the work they do.

 

this isn't true in my neck of the woods.

[WalterSobcek]

talky talky talky

 

those moas whole cars are tasty treats.

[PornoStars]

Re: BUMP

 

Originally posted by DripOfAWish

From what i gather, he's implying that Stamplicking is what keeps transit graff alive in europe, and that if stamplicking was frowned upon there like it is in the US, european writers may also look for other means as to getting there names up.

 

No one has addressed this. I don't hate on european graff at all, just want to see someone's rebuttal.

 

Same as in the States from what i've heard, there are people renowned for Net / Mag fame who do send every flick out to every magazine. However there are people who hold their flicks like its a matter of life and death and wont show anyone.

 

Personally I think a happy medium is best!

[se_FOUR]

Isn`t it good to see a nice discussion with no aggro for a change.. Bump for all parties involved...

[Locofanclub]

Originally posted by se_FOUR

Isn`t it good to see a nice discussion with no aggro for a change.. Bump for all parties involved...

<span style='color:purple'>Thats because this thread isnt titled "London Undergound......."</span> :lol:

[niseNSF]

for clarification: im not calling euro people stamplickers..im saying the whole culture over there is set up so that you can and will get your rep off magazines and photos, not as much word of mouth/caught in traffic. get me?

 

like in the states, the only real measure of whos doing what is word of mouth from what people see....which is why street shit motivates more people.....if you get a nice roof, or high-vis fillin, or whatever, you know X amount of people will see it, and thru word of mouth that rep multiplies exponentially. if you do a commuter or subway, no one will see it at all, so your only exposure is the photo, and you have to control how that photo gets seen. here, in the states, its unlikely to be printed in any magazine unless you send it (and dont care about the heat that it might cause). so beyond that, its sort of like whoever you show it to. but most american clean train people are like uber-paranoid and dont show that shit to anyone. ive met kids (like some on this board) who are all "yeah ive done about 100 panels"...and i never knew they did ONE! they keep that shit ultra ultra hushhush.

 

but in europe, you have an insane amount of magazines and outlets for the work....so you know that, no matter what, that panel can and will get seen. which creates incentive to do it, in my opinion. i know some kids do it just for their own photo files, but in a lot of ways, thats the same as me doing a hundred fillins under a rock, flicking them and then having this insane flick book of the fillins i did that no one ever saw....everyone that does graff is doing it for the fame...and anyone that says they are breaking into train yards for the sheer fun of it and could care less if anyone ever sees it is either crazy or lying.

 

bottomline: i really think it just boils down to there being an *outlet* in europe...theres press to be had if you do trains. you do a wholecar, its gonna get in lots of zines, its gonna get seen and talked about. here, in the US, no one will ever know most likely. so people gravitate towards what *does* get them chatter: streets and freight trains. i, for one, think fr8 trains are boring. but as i said before, they are more about patience and plotting rather than adrenaline. some people prefer that slow burn rather than the flash in the pan..to each their own...its all illegal, its all real, and its all good to see.

 

lets see some more wholetrains......plus, what is up with the definition of a whole train....4 cars or 8 cars?

[Von schnabel]

Then ofcourse its not like euroheads dont bomb streets, rooftops or trackside..infact If you take a ride along the lines youll se the same crew names over and over and over again, and conseqently they are often the same crews who destroy the transit..

 

The transit you see in mags are but a small percentage and is rarly representive of anything but the editors bias, most people know whos up thru word of mouth anyway. The thing with transit is that it is like a hard currency, a subway is always a subway no matter where it is, if some one says he has done 500 panels you know he has paid the full price for it, you cant say the same about walls.

[niseNSF]

i agree with that too...but thats pretty much a good way of understanding how it happens here: a writer does 500 panels, its his word only....the little inner circle of clean train people may give him props, but 90% of the rest of american writers will be like "i never heard of him". do 500fillins or rooftops and people have heard of ya. its simple math. htere is simply no outlet for clean trains to get published/exposed here. im not making this up.

[Von schnabel]

I think you are partly wrong about your incentive theory, i think it has more to do with values. European writers simply value transit higher.

It has never been like in nyc here, and even when mags and the internet did not exist or in the way it does today trains was still the main focus. Its more like the reason theres alot of mags is because the way the train scene is. And the fact that you dont see trains everyday makes it all the more special when you do..its like the whole train thing gets an aura of mystesism.

 

"but thats pretty much a good way of understanding how it happens here: a writer does 500 panels, its his word only....the little inner circle of clean train people may give him props, but 90% of the rest of american writers will be like "i never heard of him". do 500fillins or rooftops and people have heard of ya. its simple math. htere is simply no outlet for clean trains to get published/exposed here. im not making this up."

 

What you are talking about is fame on an international level (or maybe national in americas case), the people in the city, toys or not dont need mags to know whos down. But yes you probably need to be published to reach an international audience since neither walls nor subways crosses many borders.

[niseNSF]

dropofawish: no sorry needed..i knew you werent man!

 

von schnabel: hmmm, also good points....kind of like the chicken and the egg..which came first. i think my theory is obviously way oversimplified, but i do haft say that as early as like 92, i was able to buy copies of mags like 'overkill' from germany when there was basically no graff mags in color at all in the states besides 'can control' graphotism also was around way early with full glossy color exposure.

 

id agree transit IS valued way more..i guess i was getting at how/why that happened, or better yet *stopped happening* here. i thinks its a mix of things, but mostly, its the lack any after-market outlet for peoples work here. its no harder (and arguably easier) to actually *DO* transit steel in the US (and certainly less competition or crowds in yards)...but people still dont do it. i doubt any of the more levelheaded europeans really believe that americans are "scared"...do they? we are just as ballsy as any other writer, anywhere....as evidenced by the limits weve pushed street shit to.......so, if its not a matter of fear, what else could it be?

 

i think there was simply a cultural divergence where the trains of early 80s nyc became a sort of holy grail/symbolic thing for all of europe (the hwole style wars thing). whereas americans have had graffiti in the city, growing organically, forever.....people like myself grew up seeing graffiti on street corners, rooftops, bridges, alleys...i never and never will see a panel in transit with my own eyes in philly. the first graffiti i ever saw on a train was in Dortmund in 1992. there really was no "oooh SEEN, amazing" moment for me...i didnt even see style wars until i was writing for like 3 years already. and lots of other americans are similar. add that formula to my theory about magazines and exposure and i think you get a clearer idea of how it simply isnt really ever explored as an option really here in the states.

 

i dont think any of this is bad..its simply two different ways the cultures went. if anything, i think its fun to have both teams doing different things. i was on a busy street corner in philly last night doing fillins and it took me over an hour, having to stop and start for pedestrians and cars and police and what not.....and would i rather have been painting steel? not really. seeing all the crowds of rush hour people walking and driving past the fillins the next day felt much more like *my* graffiti roots than having a night photo sitting on my computer for me and my close friends to look at. both are cool, of course, but do you see how, based on my roots, my history, why one thing just appeals more? flicks of panels that never run are for you and other writers only. for me, graff on the streets is about everyone in a city, about adding to the whole melting pot, seeing things alive out there for everyone, not just me and a few other writers. if trains ran throughout the city, you can bank on the fact that id be painting the,....but thats my breeding, my history, thats what we were raised with. ones not better than the other, its just a different way of doing the same beautiful artform. fuck shit up forever.