1. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum...
    You are currently logged out and viewing our forum as a guest which only allows limited access to our discussions, photos and other forum features. If you are a 12ozProphet Member please login to get the full experience.

    If you are not a 12ozProphet Member, please take a moment to register to gain full access to our website and all of its features. As a 12ozProphet Member you will be able to post comments, start discussions, communicate privately with other members and access members-only content. Registration is fast, simple and free, so join today and be a part of the largest and longest running Graffiti, Art, Style & Culture forum online.

    Please note, if you are a 12ozProphet Member and are locked out of your account, you can recover your account using the 'lost password' link in the login form. If you no longer have access to the email you registered with, please email us at info@12ozprophet.com and we'll help you recover your account. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum (and don't forget to follow @12ozprophet in Instagram)!

The Libertarian Party...?

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by CIPHER_one, Jul 18, 2004.

  1. CIPHER_one

    CIPHER_one 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2000
    Messages:
    2,300

    The Libertarian Party...?

    Discussion started by CIPHER_one - Jul 18, 2004

    What are everyone's thoughts on this party? Pros? Cons?

    I've heard some convincing arguments.
     
    CIPHER_one - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    2,300
    - Joined:
    Jul 3, 2000
  2. the_gooch

    the_gooch 12oz Loyalist

    Joined:
    May 15, 2002
    Messages:
    11,566

    the_gooch - Replied Jul 18, 2004

    [​IMG]
     
    the_gooch - Rank: 12oz Loyalist - Messages:
    11,566
    - Joined:
    May 15, 2002
  3. Kr430n5_666

    Kr430n5_666 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    19,229

    Kr430n5_666 - Replied Jul 18, 2004

    [​IMG]
     
    Kr430n5_666 - Rank: Banned - Messages:
    19,229
    - Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
  4. KING BLING

    KING BLING Guest

    KING BLING - Replied Jul 18, 2004

    Its a lot like corporate anarchy, I understand the logic to it but its not applicable to our world...
     
  5. T=E=A=S=E

    T=E=A=S=E 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,271

    T=E=A=S=E - Replied Jul 18, 2004

    bunch of pussies if you ask me...

    :D
     
    T=E=A=S=E - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    3,271
    - Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
  6. rubbish heap

    rubbish heap 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,563

    rubbish heap - Replied Jul 18, 2004

    fuck it, they're a step above republicans and fascist mother fuckers!

    but if theres any third party i'd be supporting it'd be greens because i'm a liberal fuck face from portland.
     
    rubbish heap - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,563
    - Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
  7. High Priest

    High Priest 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Messages:
    4,928

    High Priest - Replied Jul 19, 2004

     
    High Priest - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    4,928
    - Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
  8. rental

    rental Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
    Messages:
    7,641

    rental - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    if there were a party with the name 'womens liberation organization', i would vote for it just because of their name.
     
    rental - Rank: Dirty Dozen Crew - Messages:
    7,641
    - Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
  9. CIPHER_one

    CIPHER_one 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2000
    Messages:
    2,300

    CIPHER_one - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    Browner, Mental, Seeking??? any thoughts?
     
    CIPHER_one - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    2,300
    - Joined:
    Jul 3, 2000
  10. Nekro

    Nekro 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,568

    Nekro - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    I like the IDEA of the libertarian party. I like the idea of being free from government except whenever necessary, but in practice it's not so rosy. Dramatically reduced government means no public schools, no government subsidized health care, no social safety net, and no oversight of coroporations.

    What we'd end up with is a few extremely rich, well armed drug lords and corporate monopolists controlling the government. The vast majority of the population would be sent into poverty.

    Libertarianism is like communism: nice on paper, but when people get involved it gets fucked up.
     
    Nekro - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    2,568
    - Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
  11. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,121

    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    Libertarians

    Think of all the political positions as being placed on a big circle (the Political Wheel), with the authoritarian Statists listed up at the top (Communists on the Left, Fascists on the right) and libertaian, "No-Statists" listed towads the bottom. The respective degrees of left- and right-wing parties are dispersed between these two extremes.

    Back when I was an anarchist, we used to party with the Libertarians. We both basically had similar ideas about freedom, but arrived at relatively close respective political positions from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Most anarchists start from the Left (anarchism is a branch of Socialism) and go farther Left to arrive at a position of anarchism.

    Libertarians start on the right (many of the ones I knew were Young Republican activists in the '60s) and go farther Right, to arrive at a position just the other side of the line from the anarchists.

    If either side continues to become more radical (anarchists "more left" and Libertarians "more right") they actually change sides. I knew a number of anarchists who were former Socialists and former left-wing extremists (Trotskyists, Maoists, etc.). I knew a number of Libertarian Party members who were former Goldwater Republicans and members of the Young Republicans. Their ideas had just continued to progress until they became ardent opponents of their former comrades.

    The Libertarian Party wants "government" to get out of everyone's lives. They want little or no taxes, little or no government services, and as small a military as possible. They want the military to be all-volunteer (NO draft, at all, ever) and the population to be able to arm themselves with whatever weapons suit them. They want every service presently performed by government with tax dollars coerced out of the citizenry by force to be privatized, and performed by private companies.

    They are opposed to government-run anything except Courts and the Self-Defense Forces, which would be manned essentially by mercenary soldiers, more-or-less like private rent-a-cops, only soldiers instead.

    Police forces, prisons, etc. would all be privately owned and contracted to the government.

    No National Parks--they would be privatized, and fee-based.

    No subsidized housing, no welfare, no Food Stamps, no government owned transportation.

    Also--no drug laws, at all. No laws governing sexual matters, except to outlaw exploitation of children and vulnerable people incapable of consenting or defending themselves against exploitation. Government would not even be in the marriage business at all.

    Bars and saloons would be able to sell whatever they pleased to anyone old enough to pay for it, and their hours would be as long or as short as they pleased.

    Everyone would be free to engage in sex, any way they want, with whomever agreed to do so, completely without the government interfering at all.

    No "labor laws" preventing people from working.

    No immigration laws.

    No income taxes--only taxes based on sales, land, or importation/exportation of goods. (A lot of Libertarians are "Flat Taxers"--one fixed tax for everyone, no exemptions).

    The law would only exist to prevent someone from harming other people physically or from taking their property.

    Anybody, anywhere, would be able to start their own business without licenses, permits, fees, or any other impediment to commerce. No labor laws means no "forced bargaining" at the government's behest.

    They envision a world free of government interference, and where everybody is free to succeeed, or fail, based on their own efforts or lack thereof.

    Is it realistic? Well, maybe not. But their emphasis is on "free to do whatever you please, as long as you do not harm anybody else, and you can afford it," is a great deal different than "Mamma-knows-best."

    We are so used to the government telling us what we can do and not do, it seems normal. Imagine a world where everyone is totally responsible for himself. Want to work hard and be rich? Great. Want to shoot heroin all day and lay in the gutter? Also great. It's YOUR responsibility to take care of yourself. That's the Libertarian Party, in a nutshell.
     
    KaBar2 - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    2,121
    - Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
  12. Nekro

    Nekro 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,568

    Nekro - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    That's basically the constitution in a nutshell, nothing revolutionary about that except the economic focus.
     
    Nekro - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    2,568
    - Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
  13. rinse

    rinse 12oz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2003
    Messages:
    703

    rinse - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    Re: Libertarians

    this is insane... i never really understood their politics. sounds like a few countries in central africa could loosely fit under the blanket of liberatarianism if only by default.
    sorta like how, out of neccesity, the government of sierra leone hired a mercenary army from the private sector to squash a revolutionary group threatening to sieze power.
     
    rinse - Rank: 12oz Member - Messages:
    703
    - Joined:
    Dec 28, 2003
  14. Cracked Ass

    Cracked Ass 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    7,898

    Cracked Ass - Replied Jul 19, 2004

    My nutshell take is that I love the idea of less government and more freedom, but in such a society corporations would absolutely take over, instead of only sort of taking over like they do today.
    I guess some vigilante militias would be easier to form, to put corporations in their place, but I rather suspect the corporations would have bigger and better private "security" forces of their own.
    If I could throw a switch and make the libertarian world a reality, I probably would. Life would be pretty interesting in short order. I might wind up part of a band of anti-corporate guerrillas holed up in the Appalachians or something.
     
    Cracked Ass - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    7,898
    - Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
  15. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,121

    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 20, 2004

    I'm not very well versed in Libertarian political philosophy. We used to (drunkenly) argue with the Libertarians at parties, and there was sort of a cross-pollenation thing going on with the inter-group dating.

    The big argument was about what we called "the Water-Hole Theory."

    The Libertarians say, "This guy was crawling across the desert, dying of thirst, when he comes upon a water hole. He drinks his fill, sets up camp, and declares the water hole to be "his." When the next guy comes along, he charges him $100 for a drink. But he advances him credit to do so."

    The anarchist says, "This guy was crawling across the desert, dying of thirst, and he comes upon a water hole. He drinks his fill, sets up camp, then declares the water hole to be "the property of the working class." When the next guy comes along, he makes him join the union before he allows him to drink."

    This, supposedly, is the difference between anarchists and Libertarians.
     
    KaBar2 - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    2,121
    - Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003