The best reasons to believe that there is a God

[Fist 666]

time is circular.

[DPMS556]

proof there is no god

[ShortFuse]

proof there is no god[/url]

 

See now that is just a retarded way to look at things. Being that I do believe there is a god and a religious person I can see why that^^ happens in life. Believing that we were once perfect and lost our perfection long ago makes us the furthest from it. So we are the most imperfect beings and lack any stitch of that perfect structure thus making physical and mental deformities come about easily.

 

The conditions of life are too perfect to have just come about easily. Earths perfect placement in the universe to support life. Its axis position, the rotation of the planet, and the orbit. I think the diversity of the living things of the planet also show that there had to be a higher being creating and putting things in place. Life Cycles and the regenerative functions the world has as a running machine so to say. If rotation stopped the world would basically end and fail to support life. Everything was created to keep itself going...like think of earthworms, they consume and yet their by product provides good soil. Scientists say that if the people of the world could stop polluting it with toxic fumes from automobiles etc that the Earth would repair itself over time, its cycles would decontaminate itself. Human beings are too complex to have just happened. Something as simple as a goose bump when your cold. You shiver to warm your body and the goose bump happens to raise your hair straight up creating an effect that traps warmth near your skin...natural insulation. Although when youre an infant and dont have the ability to shiver and you dont have body hair BUT if the body of an infant becomes cold it uses a process called thermogenesis which burns the babies brown fat to raise the temperature of the bodys core.

 

There are so many little things that are in our everyday life that point towards intelligent design. I just think people are distracted with the need to see their creator instead of accepting that they themselves are the solid evidence they seek.

[Fist 666]

so are down syndrome folk allowed to look at themselves and say (read in tard voice) I AM EFFIDENTS OFF CREATOR or is that just for those of us that are remnants of a once 'perfect species?'

must they look at themselves and curse themselves for their original sin? be upset that they were predestined to be lesser? or should they just keep watching the pretty colors?

 

believing in a god is fine, believing that humans were once perfect is moronic.

your idea of intelligent design is also way off from any that i've read before.

[nsmbfan]

 

Look man, we can talk bout this stuff endlessly, but there is no need to be a dick about it. It doesn't make your arguments better and it just makes people smarter than you think you know even less than you probably do.

 

sorry to sound like a dick, i thought we were bouncing ideas of one another.

 

what you said makes sense, and given the write reading material my position could change. i didn't know fish did that. and i kinda can see how an emergent society would, in an effort of self preservation, manifest illusions of grandeur to try and solidify their presence in their created world.

 

it'd be like if pigs ruled the world and could talk. what kind of explanation might they concoct to explain their surroundings? i get it man.. it's actually on a whole nother level of thinking. thanks for that.

[nsmbfan]

so are down syndrome folk allowed to look at themselves and say (read in tard voice) I AM EFFIDENTS OFF CREATOR or is that just for those of us that are remnants of a once 'perfect species?'

must they look at themselves and curse themselves for their original sin? be upset that they were predestined to be lesser? or should they just keep watching the pretty colors?

 

believing in a god is fine, believing that humans were once perfect is moronic.

your idea of intelligent design is also way off from any that i've read before.

 

[Cracked Ass]

I find the whole creator-thing small. The rebuttal "who created the creator" however also falls under the same mindset: that of an imperfect understanding of time. People are hung up on the idea of one event occurring before another, and yet have the nerve to say things like "it would have appeared this way to an outside observer" when they are talking about things that occurred before conditions allowed for the formation of such an observer.

What I'm getting at is echoed in the foolish, humanocentric way of measuring time: in earth years. People say "ten billion years ago", but the earth is only five billion years old, since one year is the time it takes the earth, lately, to orbit the sun. Ten billion years ago, there were no "years". I know, when people do this they are using a form of retrograde extrapolation, using a currently useful unit of measure to count backwards, which is OK to a point. But it illustrates a blind spot, that of insisting time is a "line". Those of you that know the Two Brothers experiment understand that time is relative, particularly to gravity: it appears to go by faster (whatever that really means) closer to a gravitational source, and the stronger the source the faster the elapsing of time.

The Big Bang, therefore, cannot be regarded as an "event" per se. To say that before a certain "time" everything in the universe was compressed into a singularity, and exploded therefrom, seems a bit arrogant to me. What gravitational forces were present at any of various intervals shortly after this Big Bang? In an energy-dominated universe, short of matter and therefore most gravity, what could time have possibly meant? How slowly, or rapidly, would time have been passing then? The further back in time we go, the less meaning we could possibly attribute to "time" at all - especially in a universe that did not produce any intelligent observers that we are aware of for another 12 or 13 billion "years".

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, there was no then then. "Before" does not compute at such a distant juncture - that is a humanocentric designation applied to something outside of our bailiwick. In short, to me the Big Bang is not an event that happened, but a distance beyond which we cannot meaningfully decipher anything using the rearview mirror we currently have.

[nsmbfan]

i always thought time was the most misunderstood part of our existence. we can only measure it, like you say, given our current situation with the rotation of the earth.

 

but as earth shifts slightly out of orbit with each passing year, scientists can predict how far outward it will travel, outside its current eliptical orbit. they did this same test in reverse, did they not? I remember seeing something like that. they measured how long earth has been around based on how close it got to the sun I think. the whole test was kind of a fallacy anyways. i'm sure theres much more complex math and trigonometry going on, plus tons of unknown variables.

 

gravity affecting time... that's why in space movies they say "it will only be a few weeks for me at warp speed, but here on earth you'll have died already" ?

 

maybe i should stop getting my knowledge from movies.

[Fist 666]

nsmb--find some intro to physics audiobooks, they'll help you a lot with those questions

[the.crooked]

I think I can break down time pretty simply (not to sound arrogant, and not to say I'm right, I have just thought a lot about it).

 

Ok,

 

 

 

What is time? Is time the measurable effect of change over some index of expanse? Or is it something more implicit? Is it merely a social agreement?

 

Simply said, it is all these things. The underlying principle which unifies these varying forms of time is difference and the perception thereof.

 

I say this with several thoughts in mind:

 

1. We are finite beings that process information intermittently. We experience a consistent and perpetual flow of perception, but that experience is somewhat of a lie. Take the visual system. The visual cortex interprets an image on average 24 times a second. Think of when you are walking by a fence, each time you catch a glimpse of the space between the planks it is disconnected and separate from each other glimpse you catch as you walk by. But, if you were driving by the fence, you are likely to interpret a fuller and more consistent image of the space behind the fence because the time in between those glimpses between the posts decreases, approaching the 24 frames per second mark. "Aliasing" is another visual experience that can provide insight into the way "time" plays into visual perception. When a wheel reaches a certain rotational velocity, we perceive the spokes as moving backwards, and depending on the acceleration of the wheels turning, we eventually see them moving back forwards. Why is this? Visual perception has a certain wave quality to it. When the rotational velocity of the wheel exceeds our cognitive computational boundary, we start seeing each perception in a slightly off pattern timing. Thus while we know the wheel is moving forwards we occasionally perceive it to be doing the opposite. I could go on for quite a while about time and the visual experience, however, I hope this has sufficed as a good example of how human perception is broken up into bits of different information that is pieced back together in the form of experience.

 

2. Look at the use of "time" in science and mathematics. The simplest way to describe this is by thinking of a two variable graph of the form "x/t" where "x" is some chosen variable. There is an index of a chosen variable and an index which delineates the different instances of the first variable. The former is "x" and the latter is "t" or time. Time is merely a reflection of difference at the points in which we measure variable x. This time is what I consider to be the basis of all other forms of Time. Here we can see Time as change, for change is difference over time. In the next two points I will outline how Time can be experienced as a measure of difference in two very different forms. And finally close with how time is measured socially.

 

3. Time in mental experience. How would we experience Time if we had no sensory input? No measure of the outside world in which we exist? Theoretically, it would be difference in thought. However, there would be no uniform or standard of when a thought begins or ends; there would only be the inherent knowledge that you have indeed moved from one thought to another. This sort of experiential difference is what some have said leads to Kant's belief that mathematical knowledge is gained or performed in an intuitive act. It is an a priori knowledge confirmed by experience. To know that there is difference but not know the boundary of that difference is to imply a larger structure; if there is one thing, there there must be something other than that one. and if there is something and something else, then there must be something that is not either of those things, or either of those things together (ad infinitum). Math is a hollow structure of difference that can be applied to the real world and thus gain the boundary of that difference. This application of mental difference is what leads to geometric or physical Time.

 

3. What I call physical Time is how we perceive difference in space. Classically, Time is considered the 4th dimension. I find this nomenclature to be somewhat misleading. Try to imagine starting in what I call the null dimension, a point. A point, is a mathematical object with an exact location in space (it is mathematical because it can only exist. If there is that point, then there must be the potential for another point that is not in the same place as the first point. This necessitates the potential for the 1st dimension; a line. A line is a segment of space delineated by the boundaries of two end points. Already we see a geometric difference that if represented graphically would necessitate at "time." This process of building the dimensions goes on from line to plane, and from plane to a space. Each one of these dimensions requires the existence of "time" no more or less than the one before it. Even the "null dimension" requires the potential for difference. If you name the position of a point, then you are implying a space for that point to exist in. "Time" in this sense is the exacting difference of applying a name to mathematical difference. Said another way; it takes time to cross a space.

 

4. Lastly, Time as a social measure: Time in regards to the "time of day" is simply no different than any other agreed upon standard of measurement. This is arguably the simplest form of time to understand. In most industrialized societies and some non, time is defined as comprised of seconds, minutes, hours, days and years. The standard definition of the base unit, a second, is the amount of time that it takes a Cesium-134 atom to reshuffle its structure when a charge is introduced to it. That is why we have "atomic clocks." The malleability of these definitions show the relative nature of Time in its social application. Regardless, it still maintains the essential characteristic of being a measure of difference, arbitrary or not.

 

So, Time is an intrinsic property of existence. There are difference applications and uses of the word, but there is an aspect of it that is necessary and thus persists beyond the varying ways in which it is used in language. We experience difference necessarily, for if we did not, our existence would comprise of a single point of experience in which everything occured. It is damn near impossible for our minds to wrap our heads around that concept because we can not actually understand the infinite or the void beyond how we break those spaces up, via Time.

 

Hope that in some way helps nsmb.

 

But I do agree with fist. Go read some physics.

[Fist 666]

related only to this conversation by the subject of time and its role in our lives--less science, more angst.

 

lyrics to BURIED INSIDE's "Chronoclast"

[the.crooked]

If anyone is curious what my influences for such thoughts are, I'll put these thinkers forward:

 

Henri Bergson

His work on Time and memory is pretty great. He was a turn of the century French philosopher who was trained classically as a mathematician. Time as change is largely his belief. In his early writings he seperated Time from spacial existence, but later incorporated his view of "Duration" (his view of Time and existence) into his perception of Space as well.

 

Gilles Deleuze

A mid to late 20th century French philosopher. His work on difference and repetition is rather interesting. For him the "difference" and "repetition" of meaning and change is the essential quality of existence. His view was one of an interlaced and weaving complexity for not only how we interact with the world around us but also the language we use to communicate and describe that experience.

 

Emmanuel Kant

For one of the most defining and important experiences regarding human logic and experience, read Kant. His work is seminal in the epistemology of human knowledge. Read him.

 

Ludwig Wittgenstein

Wittgenstein's work on the infinite is and what the word "all" means in a mathematical sense is very important when trying to understand what the word, its application and how humans cognate about such.

 

Albert Einstein,

I shouldn't have to even justify this one.

 

There are lots more, but I'll leave it at this for now.

[nsmbfan]

very, very insightful.

 

i think i wanna take intro to physics at the community college next semester now.

[the.crooked]

to answer your question about how we previously measured seconds, there is a whole history to it.

 

i'd say do a little research into the history of clock making for some interesting looks into that.

 

quartz has been used as well, there have been more than a few methods for creating a standard measurement of a second.

[the dark horse]

Time is the difference between two points only .. it is 100% relative and, as such, cannot be accurately quantified. As far as I can tell, the best way to define time to yourself is to simply understand the conditions under which our physical manifest exist, and to be aware of the coming and going of singular instances which define lateral thought and perception (sort of like the way a film strip or a flip book shows a number of instances in a progression). So we see how we can measure time through revolutions and other movements, from the macro the micro. But time itself is just a plane of existence through which our individual physical constructs manifest, reaching fruition and then degrading ... how many times does the sun go across the sky from your point of molecular conception, inception and birth to the physical breakdown of your personal system and eventual decay? Without the plane of object and subject under which we exist, time does not have an observer capable of definining it ... which is where the idea of god comes in to me. My beliefs follow those of the platonic ... that is, existence of pure consciousness before all, with eventual knowledge of self (and reflection on oneself) being the event which would set the stage for our plane of existence as third-party observers to come to realization. And we are still going .... evolution is going to keep coming, and I'm very excited to see what it may bring!

[Zeek-ATL]

i think the whole think with time and who created the universe cant be answered. I think the universe was always there, i know its a hard thing to consider being we are humans and we in fact know that everything has to have a start and a end. but im sure we all know the universe cant END so why does it have to have a beginning? science has proven a lot; from evolution, to how the earth works, and many other things to do with the universe, world, and evolution. If god created us or the world then why would he make it so imperfect? why would he make is so the world could end without his say so? why do humans hurt each other why do we have hate for emotion? why do little kids who cant help them self's starve? why do we die?

 

I dont think god or any type of god or anything along the lines of a god exist. Yes i used to go church all the time and i know some about MANY religions. but ever since i was young i wondered if god was real and how the earth came about. I have always wondered, THE PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT GOD! WHY DO THEY RAPE LITTLE KIDS? Why do millions of people die for no reason? why cant every one be happy and never have war, fight, be mean, argue? there are SO many bad things in this world, there are more bad things then good things in this world. so my question is why is there? why cant we all be happy, never die, never fight, and be perfect? or is this all gods little game of chest?

[GnomeToys]

im sure we all know the universe cant END

 

We do?

 

WHY DO THEY RAPE LITTLE KIDS?

 

 

For fun?

[Zeek-ATL]

yea, well i mean besides the dumb asses who have to make them self's feel better by being a ass over the net

[nsmbfan]

Time is the difference between two points only .. it is 100% relative and, as such, cannot be accurately quantified. As far as I can tell, the best way to define time to yourself is to simply understand the conditions under which our physical manifest exist, and to be aware of the coming and going of singular instances which define lateral thought and perception (sort of like the way a film strip or a flip book shows a number of instances in a progression). So we see how we can measure time through revolutions and other movements, from the macro the micro. But time itself is just a plane of existence through which our individual physical constructs manifest, reaching fruition and then degrading ... how many times does the sun go across the sky from your point of molecular conception, inception and birth to the physical breakdown of your personal system and eventual decay? Without the plane of object and subject under which we exist, time does not have an observer capable of definining it ... which is where the idea of god comes in to me. My beliefs follow those of the platonic ... that is, existence of pure consciousness before all, with eventual knowledge of self (and reflection on oneself) being the event which would set the stage for our plane of existence as third-party observers to come to realization. And we are still going .... evolution is going to keep coming, and I'm very excited to see what it may bring!

 

i dont wanna say lolwut. but can you please break this into concise paragraphs?

 

too hard to read.

 

lateral thought prevails society, no idea why. but you're right. it must be a defense mechanism of the primitive brain, trying to understand something it is not capable.

[GnomeToys]

yea, well i mean besides the dumb asses who have to make them self's feel better by being a ass over the net

 

No, really. Please go ahead and explain why the universe can't end. The other part was the joke. AFAIK all theories currently being paid attention to involve either a "Big Crunch" situation where the universe collapses to a singularity, or an expanding universe... in either case, it is believed that heat death will occur either before the crunch or as a condition of complete thermal regularity as the universe expands infinitely where all matter spreads out to the point where no gravitational or frictional forces matter anymore and the temperature of everything becomes extremely close to absolute zero. If you've seen anything else recently please post it, I'd like to know.

[nsmbfan]

i think the whole think with time and who created the universe cant be answered. I think the universe was always there, i know its a hard thing to consider being we are humans and we in fact know that everything has to have a start and a end. but im sure we all know the universe cant END so why does it have to have a beginning? science has proven a lot; from evolution, to how the earth works, and many other things to do with the universe, world, and evolution. If god created us or the world then why would he make it so imperfect? why would he make is so the world could end without his say so? why do humans hurt each other why do we have hate for emotion? why do little kids who cant help them self's starve? why do we die?

 

I dont think god or any type of god or anything along the lines of a god exist. Yes i used to go church all the time and i know some about MANY religions. but ever since i was young i wondered if god was real and how the earth came about. I have always wondered, THE PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT GOD! WHY DO THEY RAPE LITTLE KIDS? Why do millions of people die for no reason? why cant every one be happy and never have war, fight, be mean, argue? there are SO many bad things in this world, there are more bad things then good things in this world. so my question is why is there? why cant we all be happy, never die, never fight, and be perfect? or is this all gods little game of chest?

 

because every luxury you take for granted was made available to you through years and years of death, torture, hatred, sin, and anger. all through a means of self preservation.

 

in the christian belief, after adam and eve got thrown out of Eden, they had to fend for themselves. this created the struggle we experience today.

 

if you believe that. i think the struggle has always been there, just like in the animal kingdom. you are a byproduct of the smartest and strongest (or luckiest) of people in the past thousands of years. congratulations, you are special.

 

now be less of an asshole, keep to yourself, and things will be ok. woo-sah.

[nsmbfan]

yea, well i mean besides the dumb asses who have to make them self's feel better by being a ass over the net

 

he feels better about himself for more than that reason.

 

seriously, dudes got skills at computers and whatnot. the random trolling does indeed break up the doldrums of serious conversation. you should thank him.

[Zeek-ATL]

re all trying to have a serious conversation and he comes in and starts to act like a dumb ass. but his second post to me was much better, and i thank you for that.

 

Testicular Catastrophe: What i like to believe, and no i haven't studied it TO much but the universe is huge and we dont even know what else is beyond our milky way. (like i said, i haven't studied it to much) but we are not sure what the farthest planet is so how do we know it could end? yes we could make up theories all day but that doesnt mean they will come true.

 

nsmbfan: That is a respective answer, and kinda unserstandible. but i still dont think its right for people to suffer like MANY people do! and like i said, why didnt he make us perfect. He could make something so great and complex im sure he could of just not added hatred as a emotion. See then even his own son (i think) kane wouldnt of killed that person if he didnt add those bad emotions to us. and that whole trial and error thing is just another way of saying evolution. also and sorry if i came off as a ass in my post. i didnt mean for it to be like that. That was just the best way i could put it.

[GnomeToys]

re all trying to have a serious conversation and he comes in and starts to act like a dumb ass. but his second post to me was much better, and i thank you for that.

 

Testicular Catastrophe: What i like to believe, and no i haven't studied it TO much but the universe is huge and we dont even know what else is beyond our milky way. (like i said, i haven't studied it to much) but we are not sure what the farthest planet is so how do we know it could end? yes we could make up theories all day but that doesnt mean they will come true.

 

They are up to an estimate of 100 billion galaxies within observable distance, which should be considered infinite by human standards due to the distances involved, but apparently several methods (microwave background radiation, radioactive isotope based dating) agree on an age of ~13-14 billion years, which means that we can't observe anything that wasn't that distance or less in light years from our area when it began emitting light / radiation / etc... Having a beginning in the dimension of time would indicate that it is not infinite, at least in that dimension, because anything infinitely long in duration would have no beginning.

[abcs]

I dont participate in religion.

I was baptized and confirmed and thats all i know.

It may have been a catholic denomination or a christian

one. No clue. I haven't set foot in a church for anything

short of a funeral in 20 years.

 

I figure religion will be the undoing of humanity. It has

caused so many problems over the last 2K years. Only

difference between now and then is modern weaponry.

The next religious war could easily be fought with biological

weapons and other nasty shit.

 

I try to govern my actions in a moral and logical way.

I kno whats right and wrong and for the most part i try

to do right. If you require religion as a foundation for

living a honest and wholesome life then its all good by me.

I dont think people should need this kind of reinforcement

but hey... Who am i to judge.

If religion makes you happy. If you need this for fulfillment

and satisfaction... Im all for it.

I just rather not have to hear about it or see it or have people

try to influence me in their beliefs.

Thats all.

[Zeek-ATL]

.........Having a beginning in the dimension of time would indicate that it is not infinite, at least in that dimension, because anything infinitely long in duration would have no beginning.

 

thats why i said i dont there is a beginning. nor cant have a ending. i think its impossible for something THAT big to happen to destroy everything. it just just to big for one thing to happen. and i think something has always been there. even if its small or big there was always something there.

[Fist 666]

i dont there is a beginning. nor cant have a ending.

 

 

wat.

[the dark horse]

i dont wanna say lolwut. but can you please break this into concise paragraphs?

 

just take it one sentence at a time .... let it marinate. you'll understand if you take it slowly ...

[GnomeToys]

thats why i said i dont there is a beginning. nor cant have a ending. i think its impossible for something THAT big to happen to destroy everything. it just just to big for one thing to happen. and i think something has always been there. even if its small or big there was always something there.

 

Back to what I said before, a massive catastrophe isn't necessary. Even if the universe continues expanding, eventually there will be a form of heat death where matter is so spread out that there are no molecular interactions occurring to increase temperature and everything will wind up being absolute zero. This is a slow process that wouldn't happen until so long after our own sun burned out that it's barely worth mentioning, because the chances of our race surviving that long are extremely small.

[GnomeToys]

wat.

 

He accidentally the whole ending!