IRAQ IS A DISASTER

[Stereotype V.001]

Villain, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking logically here, but the problem is no one on here is really in the position to institute major changes. The Marine Corps infantry has been good with teaching alot of counter insurgency tactics, 101st has been good as well, Army regular infantry has NOT. They have started on that road, but not even nearly as much as they should/need to be. But by that comment, I was referring to the need for SOF guys who deal with that specifically to broaden their horizons. The 18x enlistment option is a good start as well, but alot more is needed IMO.

 

Pakistan's nuclear threat could be neutralized literally over night, but we could also deal with that situation using good intell (again, the CIA) and with some overnight care packages via the C-130's.

 

The problem with the CIA is they have this "thing" against hiring people from middle eastern countries, even when they are much more qualified than others being placed in programs. Their knowledge of religion, cultural/regional info, and not only being able to fluently speak Arabic but also able to speak various dialects would significantly reduce the schooling phase.

 

And yes, the draft would be a good idea. If people really want to help with the situation, they can join the military and take up arms like alot of the middle eastern youth is doing. But for some reason, that doesn't go over too well with the nintendo police state amerikkka crowd. They instead like to moan and bitch on the internet.

[Salafi_Zahrah]

Originally posted by hobo knife+Aug 4 2005, 04:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hobo knife - Aug 4 2005, 04:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Aug 4 2005, 11:10 AM

Not to mention Iraq would become more of a terrorist hotspot then it is already, probably to rival what afghanistan was.

Quoted post

 

Iraq wasnt a terrorist hotspot before we invaded. If there aren't US troops there al-qeada has no reason to be there. I suggest we release saddam and allow him to have control of his country again. We should just admit our huge mistake and say sorry for all the dead people and for ruining a country. and pull out.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

Except for putting Saddam back in power. I agree with you.

 

CLEVELAND - Lance Cpl. Edward "Augie" Schroeder, 23, died in a roadside explosion Wednesday in Iraq.

 

19 Action News reporter Wendy Gillette spoke to Schroeder's parents, who believe our troops went to Iraq under false pretenses.

 

"This war as it's currently being fought is totally wrong. We have to fight a war or get out," Schroeder's mother, Rosemary Palmer, said.

 

Paul Schroeder, the father of the fallen Marine, said that he knows who to blame for his son's death.

 

"This is a Republican war. It's a Bush administration war, so the president, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, all the people behind it are responsible for this," he said.

 

Augie died just five hours before his parents got the news. When they heard about the attack, they had a bad feeling.

 

Their fears were realized when Marines from the Brook Park Reserve Center arrived with the bad news.

 

Schroeder's parents describe him as a team player, compassionate and understanding.

 

Now that he's gone, his mother said his death must make a difference.

 

"What we are doing there is not working, and if we get out, it would stop the senseless slaughter of our kids," Palmer said. "Bring them home."

[smooth talker]

a disaster it is.

[casekonly]

i guess this fits in here

 

more guns in crawford.

[shai]

what about when all these kids come back? does anyone remember what happened after vietnam? the government gutted the VA and social services, at least where i live, are a joke. i don't care who you are, if you spend a year killing people, you come back changed. how is our enlightened government going to address that? answer- they aren't. they didn't then, and for damn sure won't now. maybe they'll warehouse and chemically restrain the colonel kurtz types, but there's going to be a LOT of guys who won't have the support, mental health care, what have you...i had a friend who was in kuwait in 1991 and he's not the same guy who left...and then, i imagine a hundred thousand kids coming back, to gas that costs $3 a gallon and an administration that is trying to take the shirt off our backs... god. not to mention having to watch my generation go fight for nothing more than a family grudge- maybe the government doesn't deserve my respect, but i will try to understand when these kids come home, what they went through, and what they are now. it's the least i can do.

[s.urkaleeno]

The VA budget was not worthy enough to vote on before the senate went to recess. But the $80 billion corporate wellfare bill to Exxon Mobile sure as shit got passed before recess. Going to war for political capitol is beyond criminal.

 

also some one needs to tell George what the definition of fascism is.

[hobo knife]

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) -- Army Pfc. Lynndie England, who said she was only trying to please her soldier boyfriend when she took part in detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, was sentenced late Tuesday to three years behind bars.

 

England's sentencing wrapped up the last of nine courts-martial of low-level soldiers charged in the scandal, which severely damaged America's image in the Muslim world and tarnished the U.S. military at home and abroad......

 

....England apologized earlier Tuesday for appearing in the photos, saying she did so at the behest of Pvt. Charles Graner Jr., who she said took advantage of her love and trust while they were deployed in Iraq.

 

"I was used by Private Graner," England said. "I didn't realize it at the time."

 

England's defense contended she is a compliant person who took part in the maltreatment to please Graner, who prosecutors said was the ringleader of the abuse by a group of U.S. troops....

 

...Graner said he told officers about detainee maltreatment, which he claimed was done by order of military intelligence personnel. And at times, he said, military intelligence officers actually were present for the abuse.

 

"I nearly beat an MI [military intelligence] detainee to death with MI there," he said before Col. James Pohl, the judge, interrupted his testimony.

 

The judge said, "Shut Up!, Shut The Fuck Up!...Don't ever say that again you sack of fucking shit! No MI were present you fucking grunt! There were no officers present, never say that again or we'll send you down to gitmo for 10 years of brain washing."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/27/prisoner...d.ap/index.html

 

This is bad. Our military is blatantly covering this up....right on CNN dude's stating under oath that he was ordered by Military Intelligence to "beat an MI detainee to death" with MI present. and the military judge cuts him off. What the fuck will it take before we refuse to allow them to feed us bullshit like this and at the same time sweep it under the rug. It doesn't really bother me that some detainee and potential enemy combatant was tortured...shit happens, we're at war....what fucking pisses me off is that they won't just admit it, that they lie, like they are ashamed we're at war. Just tell us.."yes we are torturing prisoners of war, it's something we do all the time and something we knew we would do once we invaded Iraq.

[seven.13]

Ugh

 

http://www.nowthatsfuckedup.com

 

"The pentagon is investigating charges that American Soldiers having traded photos of dead and disembowelled Afgans and Iraqis in exchange for free access to a porn website. Islamic leaders in the United States, disgusted by the news, labelled the alleged swap a "trade in misery". "

 

Alleged my ass.

 

"Don't FUCK with the American Army"

 

" I'm just posting this to get into the Adult section"

[seven.13]

Nice one guys! Iraqi woman has just had her leg blown off by a landmine, and now you're posting her cooch in the internet so you can gain access to a fucking amateur porn site.

 

[KaBar2]

Yeah, apparently so. So what? I thought you guys were hard asses. People get killed in war, usually in really fucked up, nasty ways. The Arab TV stations broadcast pictures of dead American soldiers being mutilated and abused by mobs ON PRIME TIME TV.

 

As soon as the U.S. military saw that shit, an hour later 25 cruise missles should have blown their TV station right off the face of the earth.

 

But no, when they show humiliating pictures of dead Americans, that's perfectly okay. Fuck 'em. I bet when the shrapnel stopped falling they'd never fucking do it again.

 

Too bad about this woman's leg. Unlucky girl.

 

BTW, how come none of you guys ever bitch about the obvious fact that we attacked Iraq to defend Israel? This isn't a "war for oil" so much as it is a war against countries that might be a threat to Israel. Remember the Clinton line "It's the economy, stupid!"? Well, the war protestors should be honest and carry signs that say "It's the JEWS, stupid!" Of course it's the Jews. Iraq was absolutely no threat to the U.S., but their surface-to-surface missles like the enhanced SCUD were a serious threat to Israel. Israel could counterattack, but that would inflame the whole Middle East against them, because, basically, all the Arab and Muslim states in the Middle East hate and despise all Jews. So they used their "white slaves" (as our good friends the Saudis call us) to jump in and tromp the piss out of the Iraqis. The oil was just a perk. Of course, it's a lot more of a perk now that oil is three times as expensive. Boy howdy, I need to invest in some oil companies.

 

Creating democracy in Iraq is a worthy goal, but what the fuck, is it worth 1,600 or 1,700 (or more) American lives? I think our casualties are light, but I guess if it was my kid coming home in an aluminum box, I might not feel that way. Basically, the American people don't give a shit about Iraq, or any of the rest of those countries, OR their people, and they are pissed that the President and many of his friends are making out great from the war, but the rest of us are paying three bucks a gallon for gasoline.

 

If you can believe the Democrat Party, we don't even have a democratic form of government here, so who gives a shit if Iraq gets democracy? Fuck 'em, let them fight for democracy all by themselves if they want to vote so much.

 

To win the war in Iraq, we need about three times as many troops as we have there, and a RUTHLESS attitude. So probably, in the end, we'll leave Iraq still all fucked up and go home, after declaring "victory." The present political climate will not support a draft, and eventually our professionals will get tired of getting shot at for shitty pay, and will quit the Army or Marines and join the contract security forces guarding KBR. We ought to just admit the truth, hire mercenaries, pay them well, and turn them loose to do the job right.

 

There, happy? Oh, and fascism is unlikely. The Republicans lack the guts for it.

[seven.13]

What I think is wrong is any soldier taking photos of human remains and or wounded civillians, in order to gain access to a pornographic website. But hey, thats just me.

This is not a TV station, a news channel reporting on actual events. It doesn't bother me that "The Arab TV stations broadcast pictures of dead American soldiers being mutilated and abused by mobs ON PRIME TIME TV." They are just airing footage of what's happening.

[KaBar2]

I guess I'm not surprised.

[hobo knife]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Sep 30 2005, 12:51 AM

BTW, how come none of you guys ever bitch about the obvious fact that we attacked Iraq to defend Israel? This isn't a "war for oil" so much as it is a war against countries that might be a threat to Israel. Remember the Clinton line "It's the economy, stupid!"? Well, the war protestors should be honest and carry signs that say "It's the JEWS, stupid!" Of course it's the Jews. Iraq was absolutely no threat to the U.S., but their surface-to-surface missles like the enhanced SCUD were a serious threat to Israel. Israel could counterattack, but that would inflame the whole Middle East against them, because, basically, all the Arab and Muslim states in the Middle East hate and despise all Jews. So they used their "white slaves" (as our good friends the Saudis call us) to jump in and tromp the piss out of the Iraqis. The oil was just a perk. Of course, it's a lot more of a perk now that oil is three times as expensive. Boy howdy, I need to invest in some oil companies.

 

Creating democracy in Iraq is a worthy goal, but what the fuck, is it worth 1,600 or 1,700 (or more) American lives? I think our casualties are light, but I guess if it was my kid coming home in an aluminum box, I might not feel that way. Basically, the American people don't give a shit about Iraq, or any of the rest of those countries, OR their people, and they are pissed that the President and many of his friends are making out great from the war, but the rest of us are paying three bucks a gallon for gasoline.

 

Quoted post

 

Give me a break. Saddam may have been a brutal dictator but he wasn't stupid. Saddam had no reason to shoot a scud missle at Israel. AND more importantly no one with half a brain would engage in formal war with Israel....especially a country like Iraq which had been severly sanctioned and decimated by the US ten years before. I don't think Saddam would provoke the US again, especially by bombing Israel of all places. Yeah sure creating a democracy in Iraq is a worthy goal...and no it is not OUR place to bomb and police the country into submission.

 

"because, basically, all the Arab and Muslim states in the Middle East hate and despise all Jews. So they used their "white slaves" (as our good friends the Saudis call us) to jump in and tromp the piss out of the Iraqis."

 

And who is "they"? The Saudi's had us tromp the piss out of the Iraqis because the Saudis hate the jews??

[DeanGulberry]

..the parallels between this boondoggle and Vietnam are really scary. The only disappointing difference is that we don't have a balls-out, willing-to-get-beat-down-by-the-cops opposition to this HUGE mistake of a war. Timing is everything, and while Hussein had to go, we definitely rushed this thing, and changed the rationale like 4 or 5 times now. At least the opposition march a few days ago drew 20,000, while the "you don't speak for me, Cindy" gathering drew 400 in D.C. This at least tells us where the pulse of the country is right now... I saw yesterdy Sen. McCain ask gen. Casey about his earlier statement (in July) that we had 3 divisions of Iraqi troops almost ready to defend the country, and where did that number stand now. After a bit of circular nonsense, Casey reworked his number to a reassuring and totally staggering figure of "one".. that is, ONE division of trained and equipped Iragi troops ready to relieve our forces. Fantastic! Tax dollars and lives well spent! Stay the course! Don't cut-and run! Mission Accomplished! Boy, that'll show China and North Korea and Iran that we mean business.. if you voted for this dolt and his cadre, I can only wonder what your IQ is.

[KaBar2]

The mistakes from the very start were trying to invade Iraq on the cheap, and misinterpreting what the Iraqi people wanted. Early on in the invasion, about the same time that they "toppled Saddam's statue", somebody interviewed an Iraqi college-age kid who spoke English. The conversation went sort of like this:

 

"Yes, we are very happy that Saddam is defeated. America has done a wonderful thing for all Iraqis. Now go home."

 

The situation is roughly analgous to Federal troops enforcing civil rights in the South. The reason it worked is that the troops didn't stay too long. If we were to leave Iraq tomorrow, the first item of Shiite business would be to slaughter the shit out of the Sunnis, and drive them out of Iraq. The second order of business would be to establish Sharia law from border-to-border. Third item, attack the Kurds, and try to sieze the oil-rich north.

 

The only reason there is any talk of democracy is because we are there trying to encourage it. The Sunni-Baathist-fascist element has engendered enough Shiite ill will to virtually seal their doom once the Americans (oh, let's use the Iraqi term: "the Jews") are gone.

 

The Israelis attacked Iraq several times to prevent Saddam from doing one thing or another. You may remember the time they sent F-16s to bomb his nuclear plant before it was activated. They considered him a serious threat, that's why they were dancing in the streets when 9-11 happened. "Now the Americans are going to move against the Arab threat!" The Palestinians were dancing in the streets because they hate us, and the reason they hate us is that without American money and military power, Israel would not be nearly as strong and able to defend itself as it is. The Muslims in the Middle East hate and despise all Jews. Given the opportunity, they would kill every Jew in Israel, men, women and children, and bulldoze the entire country into the Mediterranean.

 

Frankly, although Israel is like a huge land-based American aircraft carrier in the Middle East, they are really no friend to the U.S. They are just using us to get what they want, and they don't hesitate to spy upon the U.S. inside our own country (several have been caught, tried and convicted), they don't hesitate to attack our ships if they deem it necessary (U.S.S. Liberty, and maybe the Cole---there is a worrisome theory that Mossad had a hand in the Cole attack) and they meddle in U.S. political affairs through powerful political lobbies here within the U.S. They manipulate us at every turn.

 

It's like having a brother-in-law that lies, steals and cheats everybody around him. Your neighbors hate you, because you defend your brother-in-law, but what choice have you got? He's married to your sister.

[hobo knife]

Dude, As far as I can tell Israel bombed Iraq once in 1981 over 20 years ago....when Iraq was at war with Iran. Since 1991 Iraq has been so heavily sanctioned it was basicaly going bankrupt, and had an almost non-existant army as well has being closely watched by the US and UN weapons inspectors. For Iraq to have done anything to Israel now would have been an invitation for the US to bomb the shit outta baghdad and the rest of the country for that matter. Trust me Saddam wanted to stay in power, he wasn't about to commit political suicide by bombing Israel. Iraq was really not a threat to any other country.

 

I would venture to say that we convinced Israel to bomb the reactor even though we publicly condemned it.

 

on a side note...this is what it looks like to have a guilty conscience.

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by ink Lunatic@Sep 30 2005, 01:56 AM

What I think is wrong is any soldier taking photos of human remains and or wounded civillians, in order to gain access to a pornographic website. But hey, thats just me.

This is not a TV station, a news channel reporting on actual events. It doesn't bother me that "The Arab TV stations broadcast pictures of dead American soldiers being mutilated and abused by mobs ON PRIME TIME TV." They are just airing footage of what's happening.

Quoted post

Inferring that Al Jazeera is a legitimate news source is pretty funny. It does bother me that they are allowed to display and glorify every single one of Zaraqwi's home videos of our soldiers getting killed, and more or less tell the friendly local arab population just why all of the infidel Americans need to die. But that's just me.

[Stereotype V.001]

"This is bad. Our military is blatantly covering this up....right on CNN dude's stating under oath that he was ordered by Military Intelligence to "beat an MI detainee to death" with MI present. and the military judge cuts him off. What the fuck will it take before we refuse to allow them to feed us bullshit like this and at the same time sweep it under the rug. It doesn't really bother me that some detainee and potential enemy combatant was tortured...shit happens, we're at war....what fucking pisses me off is that they won't just admit it, that they lie, like they are ashamed we're at war. Just tell us.."yes we are torturing prisoners of war, it's something we do all the time and something we knew we would do once we invaded Iraq."

 

This, I agree with. No way kids that couldn't spell "rapist" right knew the cultural sensitivities involving dogs and that paticular type of public humiliation. Someone else was covering their ass by having those photos taken too.

 

But Dean Gullible, not so much. We needed to take Saddam out, yet we shouldn't have? It's exactly like Vietnam...except there is a fraction of the casualties...and there isn't one central leader...and it isn't based on a political ideal...and the opposition is less organized...and they are incapable of launching any sort of offensive on a large scale (like the Tet offensive). Yes, just like Vietnam. Just out of curiosity, why don't you tell me how many troops are in a division..since it is so very pathetic? If you want the type of opposition to this war as a war of yesteryear, the draft will have to come back. I can't see the majority of the armchair quarterbacks like yourself actually taking any sort of action unless it directly affects you. And we need to cut and run, but once we have new training camps set up I'm sure you will have some other expert advice regurgitated from some cable news pundit who also has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

[SF1]

This country would end up alot better off if the idiots that support this fraud Bush and his bullshit war would just enlist and go die.

[Stereotype V.001]

SF, assuming that's directed towards me, where did I say I support Bush whatsoever? If you read my posts I have alot more negative things to say about him than anything else...but if I have a viewpoint different from "The government abducted Iraq and was behind every terrorist attack uber fascist police state bro" I'm automatically a Bush supporter?

 

And I hate to break it to you, but the casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan make up less than a percent of all our soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines. I highly suggest you repeat that statement to any of the aforementioned people IN PERSON to see what their thoughts are about going to die. Thanks bud.

[isor357]

We should have let Israel take care of this. They could easily wipe that shit clear off the map. They have come pretty close to doing it a couple times before yet we stopped it... Iraq should not be our problem. Those people hate us. Iraqis dont want Americans in Iraq. Americans dont want Americans in Iraq. The rest of the world would rather we werent in Iraq either. The fuck cares what happens to them anyways. If i see the president get up and explain how important, special, or exciting it is that the Iraqi people to vote in free elections 1 more time i could get sick.

 

I highly suggest you join. ha thanks bud!

[SF1]

Last I heard we've killed way more civilians than actual sodiers and insurgents. Anyone have the latest statistics on that?

[SF1]

yEah bRo mY nAEm iZ SterEoTypeR aNd if yoU AreGue Wit mE I wIlL acUse YoU ov TyPinG And TalkIng LieK a Nut CuZ i GoTz nO otHeR DefeNce ThEn tO dO dat an cAll U a CoNspirAcy nUt.

aNd iF U hAve a poiNt i'L sCan 4 enY misPelled weRds aNd acUse U ov tYpinG liEk dIs cAuse it maEks mE lOok smArter liEk a 5tH grAed sPelLing -bEe Champ bRO!!!! YeaH buD! I'm cHesS teAm CaptaiN BRO!!!!

[Stereotype V.001]

To answer your question - Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated 32,300 to 65,800

 

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Estimated 45,470

(second time I've post this-attention to details) So no, I'm sorry to say you are incorrect. But it would be better for your argument to say that there is 10x the civilians dead, so let's just go with that.

 

Anywho, this is the third or fourth reply to one of my posts where you type like your usual self and imply that I was trying to correct your spelling. Well, I double checked my post and didn't see anything about spelling mentioned...want to point out where I did? It seems to me your whole "I support the troops, just undermine everything they do!" facade went down the toilet with your "enlist and die" comment and your trying to change the subject. Or maybe you don't want to admit you'd never say that sort of comment in person to someone who has the backbone to fight for what they believe.

(BTW-Chess team leader is the name preferred, not captain.)

 

As another member said before, "SF- Stereotype brought up historical inaccuracies and pointed out that the tone of the article is obviously not neutral. Your response to that was essentially 'You are stupid!'. Here is an idea: Try responding to a few posts without talking about the poster. Just deal with the content of the post. I've yet to see you address his original post in any depth. I'll give you five bucks if you pull it off, no lie. "

 

Maybe read it like 3 times. Or 4 might be better.

[SF1]

Last Marine in Squad Mourns 11 Friends Killed in Bombing

All but One in Close-Knit Unit Die in Roadside Attack in Iraq

By ANTONIO CASTANEDA, AP

 

HADITHA DAM, Iraq (Oct. 1) - Cpl. David Kreuter had a new baby boy he'd seen only in photos. Lance Cpl. Michael Cifuentes was counting the days to his wedding. Lance Cpl. Nicholas Bloem had just celebrated his 20th birthday.

 

 

And Then There Was One

 

Travis Williams remembers them all - all 11 men in his Marine squad - all now dead. Two months ago they shared a cramped room stacked with bunk beds at this base in northwest Iraq, where the Euphrates River rushes by. Now the room has been stripped of several beds, brutal testament that Lance Cpl. Williams' closest friends are gone.

 

For the 12 young Marines who landed in Iraq early this year, the war was a series of hectic, constant raids into more than a dozen lawless towns in Iraq's most hostile province, Anbar. The pace and the danger bound them together into what they called a second family, even as some began to question whether their raids were making any progress.

 

 

"They were like a family. They were the tightest squad I've ever seen."

-Capt. Christopher Toland, platoon commander

 

Now, all of the Marines assigned to the 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 25th Regiment, based in Columbus, Ohio, are gone - except Williams. They died in a roadside-bomb set by insurgents on Aug. 3 that killed a total of 14 Marines. Most of the squad were in their early 20s; the youngest was 19.

 

"They were like a family. They were the tightest squad I've ever seen," said Capt. Christopher Toland of Austin, Texas, the squad's platoon commander. Even though many did not know each other before they got to Iraq, "They truly loved each other."

 

All that is left are photos and snippets of video, saved on dusty laptops, that run for a few dozen seconds. As they pack up to return home by early October, the Marines from Lima Company - including the squad's replacements - sometimes huddle around Williams' laptop in a room at the dam, straining to watch the few remaining moments of their young friends' lives. Some photos and videos carry the squad's adopted motto, "Family is Forever."

 

In one video, Lance Cpl. Christopher Dyer, who graduated with honors last year from a Cincinnati area high school, strums his guitar and does a mock-heartfelt rendition of "Puff the Magic Dragon" as his friends laugh around him.

 

In a photo, Kreuter rides a bicycle through a neighborhood, swerving under the weight of body armor and weapons, as Marines and Iraqis watch and chuckle.

 

Each video ends abruptly, leaving behind a blank screen. Some are switched off as soon as they start - some images just hurt too much to see right now.

 

The August operation began like most of the squad's missions - with a rush into another lawless Iraqi city to hunt insurgents and do house-to-house searches, sometimes for 12 hours in temperatures near 120 degrees.

 

On Aug. 1, six Marine snipers had been ambushed and killed in Haditha, one of a string of cities that line the Euphrates, filled with waving palm trees. Two days later, Marines in armored vehicles, including the 1st Squad, rumbled into the area to look for the culprits.

 

 

"I just had the basic view of the American public - it can't be that bad out there."

-Lance Cpl. Travis Williams

 

Like other cities in this region, Haditha has no Iraqi troops, and its police force was destroyed earlier in the year by a wave of insurgent attacks. Marines patrol roads on the perimeter and occasionally raid homes in the city, which slopes along a quiet river valley. Commanders say insurgents have challenged local tribes for control and claim Iraq's most wanted terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, once had a home here.

 

Since their arrival in February, the Marines had spent nearly all their time on such sweeps or preparing for them, sometimes hurrying back to their base to grab fresh clothes, then heading off again to cities that hadn't seen American or Iraqi troops in months.

 

The intense pace of the operations, and the enormous area their regimental combat team had to cover - an expanse the size of West Virginia - caught some off guard.

 

The combat was certainly not what the 21-year-old Williams had expected.

 

"I didn't ever think we'd get engaged," said the soft-spoken, stocky Marine from Helena, Mont. "I just had the basic view of the American public - it can't be that bad out there."

 

In some sweeps, residents warmly greeted the Marines. But in others, such as operations in Haditha and Obeidi near the Syrian border, the squad members met gunfire and explosions. In the Obeidi operation in early May, another squad from Lima Company suffered six deaths. Williams himself perhaps saved lives, once spotting a gunman hidden in a mosque courtyard, said Toland, the platoon commander.

 

The night before the Aug. 3 operation, an uneasy Toland couldn't sleep. Instead he spent his last night with his squad members talking and joking, trying to suppress worries the mission was too predictable for an enemy that knew how to watch and learn.

 

"I had concerns that the operation was hastily planned and executed, with significant risks and little return," Toland said.

 

The road had been checked by engineers and other units, Marine commanders say. But insurgents had been clever - hiding the massive bomb under the road's asphalt.

 

Several Humvees first drove over the bomb, but the triggerman in the distance apparently waited for a vehicle with more troops. Then, as the clanking sound of their armored vehicles neared, a massive blast erupted, caused by explosives weighing hundreds of pounds. It threw a 26-ton Amphibious Assault Vehicle into the air, leaving it burning upside-down.

 

The blast was so large that Toland and his radioman, Williams - traveling two vehicles ahead and not injured - thought their vehicle had been hit by a bomb. They scrambled out to inspect the damage, but instead found the blazing carnage several yards down the road.

 

A total of 14 Marines and one Iraqi interpreter were killed.

 

There was no time for grieving - not at first. There was only sudden devastation, then intense anger as the Marines pulled the remains of their friends from the vehicle.

 

Then there was frustration, as they fanned out to find the triggerman. Instead, they found only Iraqis either too sympathetic toward the insurgency, or too afraid, to talk.

 

Although the bomb had been planted in clear view of their homes, residents claimed they had seen nothing of the men who had spent hours digging a large hole several feet deep and concealing the bomb.

 

It was a familiar - and frustrating - problem.

 

"They are totally complacent with what's going on here," said Maj. Steve Lawson of Columbus, Ohio, who commands Lima Company. "The average citizen in Haditha either wants a handout, or wants us to die or go away."

 

In a war where intelligence is the most valued asset, the Marines say few local people will divulge "actionable" information that could be used to locate insurgents.

 

Some Iraqis apparently fear reprisal attacks from militants. Many just want to stay out of the crossfire. Others hate the Americans enough to protect the insurgents: Marines say lookouts in cities would often launch flares as their vehicles approached.

 

In this region ruled by Sunni tribal loyalties, few voted for the new central Iraqi government, and many suspect the U.S. military is punishing them and empowering their longtime rivals, the Shiites of the south and the Kurds of the north.

 

"From a squad leader's perspective, the intelligence never helped me accomplish my mission," said Sgt. Don Owens, a squad leader in Lima Company from Cincinnati, who fought alongside the 1st Squad throughout their tour.

 

"Their intelligence is better than ours," Owens said.

 

The first night after the attack, Williams couldn't sleep. He stayed near his radio, listening to the heavy sobbing of fellow Marines that punctured the night around him.

 

He thought of his best friend, Lance Cpl. Aaron Reed, a 21-year-old with a goofy demeanor and a perpetual smile, now dead.

 

A world without his second family had begun. The young men Williams had planned to meet up with again, back in the States, had vanished in a matter of minutes. He was alone.

 

Yet from a military standpoint, it was important to press on to show the enemy that even their best hits couldn't stop the world's most powerful military. The Marines were ordered away from the blast site, to hunt insurgents, just one hour after the explosion.

 

They stayed out for another week, searching through dozens of homes in the nearby city of Parwana and struggling to piece together intelligence about who had planted the bomb.

 

"I pushed them back out the door to finish the mission," said Lawson. "They did it, but they were crying as they pushed on."

 

As word spread back in the United States that 14 men had been killed, the Marines on the ongoing mission couldn't even, at first, contact their families to let them know they had survived.

 

Marine commanders say the large-scale raids in western Anbar province have kept the insurgency off-balance, killing hundreds of militants and leaving a dwindling number of insurgent bases in the area.

 

They say the sweeps are critical to beat back the insurgent presence in larger cities such as Ramadi and Baghdad, where suicide bombings have been rampant.

 

But, among some Marines and even officers, there are doubts whether progress has been made.

 

The insurgents lurk nearby - capable of launching mortars and suicide car bombs and quietly re-entering cities soon after the Marines return to their bases on the outskirts.

 

"We've been here almost seven months and we don't control" the cities, said Gunnery Sgt. Ralph Perrine, an operations chief in the battalion from Brunswick, Ohio. "It's no secret."

 

Even commanders acknowledge that with the limited number of U.S. and Iraqi troops in the region, the mission is focused on "disrupting and interdicting" the insurgency - that is, keeping them on the run - and not controlling the cities.

 

"It's maintenance work," said Col. Stephen W. Davis, commander of all Marine operations in western Anbar. "Because this out here is where the fight is, while the success is happening downtown while the constitution is being written and while the referendum is getting worked out. ... If I could bring every insurgent in the world out here and fight them all day long, we've done our job."

 

For Williams, the calculation is much more visceral and personal.

 

"Personally, I don't think the sweeps help too much," he said quietly on a recent day, sitting in a room at the dam, crowded with Marines resting from a late mission the night before.

 

"You find some stuff and most of the bad guys get away. ... For as much energy as we put in them, I don't think the output is worth it," he said.

 

Williams, a Marine for three years, has decided not to re-enlist.

 

Instead, in these last days in Iraq, he thinks of home and fishing in the clear streams of Montana. He hopes to open a fishing and hunting gear shop once he returns and complete his bachelor's degree in wildlife biology. He looks forward to seeing his mother, his only surviving parent, and traveling to her native Thailand this fall.

 

He said his "best memory" will be the day he leaves Iraq. His only good memories, he said, are of his friends:

 

Of Dyer, 19, an avid rap music fan who would bop his head to Tupac Shakur. He played the viola in his high school orchestra and had planned to enroll in a finance honors program at Ohio State University.

 

Of Reed, his best friend. He was president of his high school class from Chillicothe, Ohio, and left behind a brother serving in Afghanistan.

 

Of Cifuentes, 25, from Oxford, Ohio. He was enrolled in graduate school in mathematics education and had been working as a substitute teacher when he was deployed.

 

"I think the most frustrating thing is there's no sense of accomplishment," Williams said. "You're biding your time and waiting. But then you lose your friends, and it's not even for their own country's freedom."

[SF1]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Oct 1 2005, 10:36 PM

To answer your question - Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated 32,300 to 65,800

 

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Estimated 45,470

(second time I've post this-attention to details) So no, I'm sorry to say you are incorrect. But it would be better for your argument to say that there is 10x the civilians dead, so let's just go with that.

 

Anywho, this is the third or fourth reply to one of my posts where you type like your usual self and imply that I was trying to correct your spelling. Well, I double checked my post and didn't see anything about spelling mentioned...want to point out where I did? It seems to me your whole "I support the troops, just undermine everything they do!" facade went down the toilet with your "enlist and die" comment and your trying to change the subject. Or maybe you don't want to admit you'd never say that sort of comment in person to someone who has the backbone to fight for what they believe.

(BTW-Chess team leader is the name preferred, not captain.)

 

Quoted post

 

 

My bad Chess team "leader". I saw you correcting someone elses spelling earlier, something about how he's an idiot for not knowing how to spell rapist correctly. It reminded me of everytime I shut you down and all you had to defend your bullshit retoric was how I'm an idiot cause I misspelled a word or two. Then you would constantly bring up how stupid I supposedly am because I misspelled suppose.

So I will continue to do you the favor and ask you to quote just one of my posts where I supposedly "tYeP LIeK mY uSuAl sElf".

 

Also I said "This country would end up alot better off if the idiots that support this fraud Bush and his bullshit war would just enlist and go die." What I meant was let the idiot Bush supporters go and fight his bullshit war for him, maybe that would free up the ones that are over there and are against this fraud of a war to come home and be ready to defend America incase we actually do get attacked. In my oppinion that's what our millitary should be for to begin with. Defense, not unprovoked pre-emptive offense. :umm:

[KaBar2]

Sad, very sad. Every Marine knows there is a substantial risk to serving in the Marine Corps. The difference here is that fifty years ago the neighborhood would have suffered seriously for having harbored insurgents. Today, why not? "We can kill the Americans and they are such pussies they won't do anything. The ones we miss will run around asking questions and then they will leave, and we can set up another IED for the next patrol."

 

But, of course, how could we possibly arrest or punish innocent neighborhood people? They didn't set the bomb. They just live here. The insurgents are the bad guys, not the local people.

[John Birch]

Actually the insurgents are the good guys. We invaded thier country so they could be liberated. now they are fighting us to liberate themselves from America. From my understanding of freedom, they're the good guys...

 

 

I don't know if this is addressed, I only read the last page, but one of my best freinds is in Iraq right now. I talk to him on aol IM and e-mail.

 

he tells me, contrary to popular beleif, that down to the last man, every soldier over in Iraq hates the war, doesn't support the mission and thinks getting killed is just a waste. The only problem is, is that soldiers are not allowed to express this sentiment. Only commanding officers can talk to the media and they have to express only propanagnda viewpoints. If a soldier does express his or hers feelings, they can be sanctioned or blackballed etc etc, which nobody wants...

 

 

So I say yeah, let the poeple who support the war fight the war, and bring home everyone else who joined the military to get out of poverty, or to defend America from real military conflicts, which would never happen, btw, and not for some oil baron's corporate crusade that I, my freinds, my family or any of my neighbors will never profit from...

 

long live the insurgency and may they prevail!!!

[Stereotype V.001]

"My bad Chess team "leader". I saw you correcting someone elses spelling earlier, something about how he's an idiot for not knowing how to spell rapist correctly. It reminded me of everytime I shut you down and all you had to defend your bullshit retoric was how I'm an idiot cause I misspelled a word or two. Then you would constantly bring up how stupid I supposedly am because I misspelled suppose."

 

Yes, you certainly shut me down everytime by calling me stupid and saying my only defense is spelling mistakes, even though I didn't mention that in regards to you in my original post (feel free to point out where I did). Congratulations, you just won the internet. Go ahead, pat yourself on the back.

 

Yes, I said the kids posing in the prison abuse photos spelled rapist wrong. They are pretty stupid for allowing themselves to be patsies. I'm sorry you disagree.

 

John Birch- Actually, the insurgents, or I guess "freedom fighters", are more accurately from Syria, Pakistan, Chechnya, ect. But it's all the same anyway. They are certainly fighting for their freedom by blowing up all them pesky civilians too.

 

Your friend is dead on about all the soldiers not being allowed to express discontent. Every single member of the US armed forces actually hates the war, it's just like a green day music video! And if they speak out, the red laser of death created by the government/nazis strikes them down. Ask haji about it.

 

Did your friend also tell you he is an elite navy Seal (note the partial capitalization) Green Beret Ranger Scout Sniper PJ Delta operator with the CIA? Because I bet it's true, he sounds like a very reliable source.

 

I love this website.

[SF1]

And Stereotype proves his stupidity level yet again. :dunce: