Don Tahn Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by SenorSeven I disagree wholeheartedly- Alcoholism is a disease. It can be passed from one generation to another. My family is notorious for producing alcoholics (on my mothers side). Just because no one is forcing one to hit the bottle/take the drugs does not mean its not a disease. No one is forcing people to have sex (with the exception of rape), but getting HIV is catching a disease- Its the same thing with just different variables... I know I am one drink away from being an alcoholic. I've been down the path before and I realized what it can do ones life. Now, I drink maybe 4 times a year. One being the HRC dinner, one my birthday, maybe a friends birthday and 4th of July would be the fourth. Theres other things i partake in, but also know when to control that. Saying it is not a disease is the bullshit part. You also say you have no sympathy for people who get addicted. I have an extremely addictive personality. When ive experimented with certain drugs, I found myself becoming addicted VERY quick- NO MATTER what drug- nicotine,caffeine, street drugs, prescription drugs etc.... I didnt sign up for having an addictive personality, I just have it- Sometimes i do agree, its the will power of the person. Other times, its something the person cannot control. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be aware of conditions they have. I've spent years and years and years in therapy with counselors, physciatrists and pyschologists...I am just lucky enough to have been in a situation to afford this to make myself aware of these conditions I was born with. One thing that really bugs me when dealing with conversations about this is the lack of experience of most people when they want to speak. Too many variables are ignored or passed off as "weaknesses." I'm supposed to take medication everyday for the rest of my life- is that a weakness of mine? Doubt it....You need to look at something with a wellrounded view and not just from your view point or atleast, include other variables for your argument or your argument is just irrelevant words meshed together to form pretty little sentences. a lot of truth in here im in rehab and go to a few NA meetings a week right now they cover some good shit in there and id recommend it to anyone with a serious addiction... i should have more to say than this but i dont right nowwww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Tahn Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK Refer to my other post, but I just think that most doctors don't know shit. Putting a substance in your body willingly is not a disease. If so, it is also the easiest one to cure ever. JUST STOP, that is the easiest cure. Tell someone with HIV that if they could stop doing one part of their life, that they will be cured, I bet they will stop in a heart beat. To put addiction as a disease, is to take all those horrible diseases and say that everyone that has one has it willingly, bullshit. Ask a leper if they like having lepersy(I can't spell) and that they asked for it. what are you basing this on? it must be a lack of personal expereince and a good case of the suburbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overtime Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 its all about being addicted to the internet, take the test kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by onesecondple see, thats how its different than a disease, you can decide to quit, you have the power to realize that its a problem. You can think "i dont want aids" and then up and quit aids, you cant un-have downs syndrome, those are diseases. Thats how its different Dont get me wrong, i think its a problem, but not a disease what makes you think that someone ever doesnt have to deal with addiction once they are off drugs? is there a certain point or length of time where they no longer have it and are in the clear? if so, you might want to talk to some of my friends who were clean for 20+ years, thought they could dabble and have lost jobs, houses, spouses, and in some cases their lives over it. im sure they felt the same, but reality proved much different. Originally posted by E MARTYR i was talking about alcohol. i dont believe its addicting, unless you abuse it. I drink for fun, when i feel like getting fucked up. I dont need it 24-7. see tease, what people are saying is you dont probably abuse it, unless you are addicted. and if you are addicted, you abuse it. but you probably wont understand until that line has been blurred and you are standing on the other side of it. with a bagged bottle of cheap wine in your clutches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIZENO Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by toaztlove as for 'pussy', christ... I see sex treated as an intoxicant every day... so much infact, that I wonder if theres any hope for kindness... I've seen a lot of people do or say whatever, regardless of their true feelings, to get the ass, keep it up pal! you're part of the problem... try to be honest and open and people can't believe it, they think you want something from them or you're just bullshitting them just like most everyone else... its easy to subscribe to that bullshit mind state, 'im tryin to get a piece of ass'.. hah, fuck it... continue living emotionally retarded and inconsiderate... if every time someone had sex with someone they were completely honest with, unconditionally loving of and ready to emotionally support their partner in whatever manner possible... well, I think there'd be a whole lot less wackness in the world... one word ... PORN !!!!!!!!!!!!!! it has forever distorted our view of reality. If all the damn GOD fearing folk were not so afraid of their own sexuality we wouldnt need to hide from it. Outside the US nudity is not something to hide, they do not fear their own sexual being. we try to act so PC all the time .... fuck that ... know what you like live it and dont fear !!!!! sorry to stray from the subject at hand ... but this is as much an addiction as drugs in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intangible Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 life is the addiction...some of you need to get off that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK Addiction and disease are different. what if you knew addictin had a genetic or physiological component? it's being shown. i study disease. i agree with dusty's assesment of addiction as disease. your statement offers no proof. just an opinion. source: http://www.buffalo.edu/reporter/vol32/vol32n9/n7.html Dopamine, addiction linked Bozarth to address conference on reward deficiency syndrome ............ Scientists postulate that a biological condition known as "reward deficiency syndrome" may predispose up to 88 million individuals in the United States to addiction and/or other psycho-pathological behaviors. The syndrome is defined by abnormalities in brain-reward processes involving specific neural pathways. It is suspected in some cases to have a genetic component that may predispose some individuals to addiction-not only to strong stimulants like opiates but to weaker stimulants like alcohol, nicotine, gambling, sex, violence, cannabis and food. Michael Bozarth, associate professor of psychology, was among a small number of scientists whose research originally suggested an empirical relationship between the neurotransmitter dopamine, which is associated with feelings of pleasure, and certain addictions. Bozarth, director of the Addiction Research Unit in the Department of Psychology in the College of Arts and Letters, will present an invited lecture on this subject to the First Conference on Reward Deficiency Syndrome: Genetic Antecedents and Clinical Pathways, to be held Nov. 12-13 in San Francisco. He will address the relationship between neural-reward mechanisms and normal and pathological behavior, and specifically, the dopamine link as a target for therapeutic intervention in addictive behavior. Bozarth explains that those participating in the meeting will include many scientists whose studies suggest a relationship between addiction, dopamine production and the dopamine D2 receptor, and scientists whose pioneering research suggests the possibility of a genetic disorder that predisposes tens of millions to addiction. Although Bozarth's research does not involve the study of genetics, it indicates that dopamine plays a role in addiction to opiates, such as heroin and morphine. His work contributed significantly to the current view that different addictions, as well as psycho-pathological behaviors like problem gambling, may involve a common neural substrate. Prior to this finding, scientists had assumed that different mechanisms were responsible for various substance-abuse disorders. Bozarth points out that in healthy individuals, normal life activities provoke the release of dopamine, which evokes feelings of pleasure. It is presumed that in some individuals, however, this reward system in brain is not working properly. "Their brains appear to release less dopamine than might be expected under normal circumstances or the released dopamine has less effect because its receptors in the brain are not functioning properly," Bozarth says. "This may be because of depression or other underlying pathology, some of which are genetically based." Under most circumstances, he says, such people may be relatively anhedonic-that is, unable to feel pleasure to the same extent as most people. Even people with normal, healthy brains can be easily addicted to drugs like cocaine and heroin, Bozarth says, because such drugs provoke the release of a flood of dopamine, producing pleasure so intense that it often results in a craving that can, in turn, can lead to addiction. "Some scientists postulate that individuals whose brains do not release dopamine in normal quantities, or do not have properly functioning receptors for dopamine, would be particularly susceptible to addiction," he says. "This is because when they are introduced to an external stimulant, the feelings of pleasure produced are extremely intense compared to what they normally experience. They are overwhelmed by a craving so profound that the pursuit of the stimulant begins to take over their lives. They seem to lose control over their own behavior. The brain actually changes. "It is further postulated," he says, "that such individuals are vulnerable not just to extremely addictive drugs like heroin or cocaine, which as I said, can addict even normal brains, but to weaker stimulants as well—alcohol, nicotine, gambling, sex, food. In this case, too, the pleasure they receive from exposure to these stimulants so far exceeds what they normally feel that a craving is set up even to the lesser stimulants." Bozarth emphasizes, however, that while some such addictions may indeed be produced by dopamine deprivation, "it is certainly the case that not all substance-abuse disorders are caused by a common action on a single brain system. "What has spawned a new way of looking at addiction," he says, "is the fact that many of the potent motivational, and hence addictive, properties of different substances seem to involve a common neurochemical action. The (San Francisco) conference will address new findings about the relationship between neurotransmitters, their receptors in the brain and addictive action." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK Most addicts look at everything else as a reason for there lowered way of life other then the truth, which is that they choose this life everytime they buy/steal whatever substance they use. see, i just think of people i know who have prostituted themselves, some at times to the same sex when they werent even gay, or murdered over this, or sold, stole, traded, disreguarded everything they grew up learning to be true, for one more.... and it just cant be a choice. you want to oversimplify it and take logic out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Tahn Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK I don't live in the suburbs, never have and I also have vast training in this and have talked and seen many people that have problems. Most addicts look at everything else as a reason for there lowered way of life other then the truth, which is that they choose this life everytime they buy/steal whatever substance they use. look the suburbs thing wasnt the point.. how do you know all this stuff man id really like to know? im taking some of this personally because it directly applies to me. i just dont think you know what your talking about here big dogg. there are different stages of addiction and maybe you just need to get those straight but in recovery that shit starts to change and i think thats what a lot of people are talking about right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 btw as an addict, i do not have a 'lowered way of life' i graduated from college and have had several excellent jobs throughout the years of use. i wouldn't call that use 'casual' either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilush Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by !@#$% what if you knew addictin had a genetic or physiological component? it's being shown. i study disease. tis true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telo Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 this thread is popular to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK It really is that simple, they choose to do badass shit instead of telling themselves no. It is very simple. so, in your mind, you can simplify to, its not a disease, but straight guys who suck dick for crack just like the turborock more then the dicksucking necessary to get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorSeven Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK I do have a well rounded view and I also have a degree in psychology and have discussed this in length in many classes. An addictive personality is a whole different thing then having a disease. The bottom line is that every person can make a choice between buying a drug/bottle and taking it or not. To say you have a disease like hiv or cancer or whatever and compare it to something that you willingly do is bullshit. Noone says that hiv/cancer feels good and I want more, but everytime someone buys a drink, they are willingly handing over their money with the knowledge that this is an addicting substance and they either accept that or simply don't care. Show me one person that has hiv/cancer or any other disease who willingly has it and enjoys it, and I will smack the shit out of that dumbass, oh ya there is know such person. If the person has a substance problem, the only way to stop and get better is just to stop. Most people don't and they find many reasons to back that up, to include it is a disease and I got it from my parents. Stop blaming other people and accept your own problems. I have seen people who don't want to stop blame it on their parents who have been died for over 20 years, that is crazy. They all weak willed and also are selfish and don't care about who they hurt in their need to please themselfs. What they do will eventually kill them and there is a good reason that addicts get addicted to things that kill them, survival of the fittess. To have a degree in this, you seem to be very ignorant. I've taken many psychology classes and yet have a completely different outlook on this. It isnt as easy as stopping for all people. When you're addicted to something you DO NOT RATIONALIZE anything. I am addicted as fuck to nicotine. I know its killing me. I've seen it kill family members. I've used many methods to try to quit. I cant. Maybe eventually I can, but now at this point in my life, I cannot. If survival of the fittest is your philosophy to life, I am deeply sorry for you. You obviously don't give a shit about society in general or other people than yourself. To call one selfish because he/she got addicted to a substance is absolutely ridiculous. You might want to check where you were educated and see how their pyschology department ranks nationally. You may be surprised to find it towards the bottom of the list because it sure seems you didn't learn to much from attending class... Addiction isn't just something all people can break. It isn't htat simple for everyone in the world. Maybe you can break an addiction easily. Others will never be able to. You can be cocky and better than everyone else and say "I have willpower." Make yourself feel better. It has shit to do with that. It has a lot more to do with dependency. Once a body depends on a substance...well im sure you know how that goes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorSeven Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 you're right cause not all addictions are, but there are addictions that are diseases ie: alcoholism. It is a disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorSeven Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Q. Is Alcoholism a Disease? Alcoholism FAQ FAQ Index Email to a friend Printer friendly version -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related Resources • Getting Help • The Effects of Alcohol • Diagnostic Tests -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More Resources • Alcohol Statistics • What is Alcoholism? • 12 Step Info -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Alcoholism Subscribe to the Free Newsletter Your Email Address: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A. Yes. Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms that include a strong need to drink despite negative consequences, such as serious job or health problems. Like many other diseases, it has a generally predictable course, has recognized symptoms, and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors that are being increasingly well defined. and heres some back pu from a reliable source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 cilone/sk: 2 things. first, your whole do away with them notion... so you think that people cant recover? people cant stop using, lose the desire and find a new way to live? i should have been wiped off the face of the earth 8 years ago? or rotted away somewhere? and you still havent responded to the whole notion of why people who havent used in years, its still as important that they do the things to maintain their cleantime or recovery. i havent used in years, but i know, from watching other people think the way you think, that you put down the drugs, walk away and thats that, that they dont need to do things to maintain their recovery, and end up using months, years and decades down the line. so the notion that its a onetime thing, that getting clean is an even and not a lifelong process, just for today, is wrong. you still havent answeredd the whole a disease is determined by meeting the criteria: progressive, incurable, and if left untreated fatal. how exactly is that different then cancer or hiv? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by !@#$% i graduated from college and have had several excellent jobs throughout the years of use. seing as this thread is like 40% quoted material, I will do the same. there's various degrees of addiction and I dont think people easily admit this. Take for example my alcoholic friend. He might admit that he has a problem but will laugh if anyone else thinks they have a problem. 'you think you're a drunk? I drank more today than you did all week.' I also heard that some AA groups will only deal with people they consider 'serious addicts'. well just like are2 said, there are lots of people who go though life addicted to drugs without falling out of society and being train yard hobs. There's lots of execs who chase as a way to deal with stress. There's lots of young professional women who feel they cant really let loose and have fun unless they have a ball of yo. Are these people in any less danger than the 'hardcore addicts'? I honestly believe that if you think you have a problem, no matter how serious, then you have seen your addiction. Some people dont drink at all durring the week but then get blind drunk on the weekends. Is that not 'abuse' of the substance? Is that any different from a guy who sipps his cherry under the bridge or the suit who has a 4 martini lunch and harasses his secretary? Who's to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 for me: addiction has nothing to do with what is consumed or the quantity. it has nothing to do with shit on the outside (maintaining a job, wife, your cover, etc.) it has to do with what happens inside as a result of putting a chemical in you. it doesnt matter what you, them or anyone thinks. shit isnt going to change unless that person not only WANTS to change, but is WILLING to put in the work necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIZENO Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK To put alcoholism in the same boat as HIV/Cancer, is degrading all the people who have a real disease. Alcoholicts can stop(I am not saying that they won't want to drink ever again), but people who have diseases can not just stop. Like I said before, tell a lepar that they can just stop doing something and they won't have that disease, they will in a heart beat, But that is not the case. here is a thought .... if an alcoholic stops drinking he is no longer an alcoholic ??? (that is how you are presenting your argument. ) no that person will always be an alcoholic ... they will fight that everyday for the rest of their lives, weather they give into the urge to drink or not. that sounds deeper than an addiction to me. i was born with that and its in me, and up to me how i handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorSeven Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by ERIZENO here is a thought .... if an alcoholic stops drinking he is no longer an alcoholic ??? (that is how you are presenting your argument. ) no that person will always be an alcoholic ... they will fight that everyday for the rest of their lives, weather they give into the urge to drink or not. that sounds deeper than an addiction to me. i was born with that and its in me, and up to me how i handle it. cosigning with every word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.testical Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 addicts http://i.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/pakistan/smoke.jpg'> http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38281000/jpg/_38281513_addict300.jpg'> http://www.pcpafg.org/Organizations/undcp/UNDCP_images/drug%20addicts.gif'> http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/Newszine/global/pics/091503/heroinaddict.gif'> my uncle. X heroin,crack addict. he blew away my aunts money for a new house before there wedding on his heroin addiction. he now works cleaning basements of warehouses once a week. lives at a group home and still fights his addiction.has no money for himself. my aunt is living at her moms. her money. gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIZENO Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 THANKS SEEKING !!!! Originally posted by seeking in the interest of trying to actually bring a little something positive to the world, let's try and see if people can be somewhat responsible and adult like. this thread has been great. no stupid shit ... just good conversation about a very deep subject that is hard to deal with. props to all involved so far !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppa.k Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 i've got plenty of stories about abuse, from drunk parents to friends having bad reactions and jumping off 18 story buildings because they thought they could fly. i understand first hand as well but i'll tell a story about a friends mom.. she used to be a 2 pack a day smoker and quit about 20 years ago. one day about a year ago her and her friends at work were on their lunch break, all of whom smoked but her. everyday was the same thing, they would finish lunch, go outside from the cafeteria and have a smoke, then go back to work. she had nothing better to do and liked the company so she joined her friends everyday, and didn't smoke. she had had it under control for 20 years, she didn't smoke anymore. that one day. they went outside and sat on the benches as usual and being the chatty cathys they all are didn't notice when joyce picked up the pack of cigarettes off the bench, pulled one out, reached down to grab the lighter and lit the smoke. she put the lighter down after lighting it and noticed all her friends starring at her? what gives? and then she exhaled. she had no idea she was doing what she was doing. 20 years ago that was the routine, and that particular day, her addiction came back to say peek-a-boo. its relatively easy to stop an addiction. if you want to stop it for more than an hour though, you'll need to work at it everyday for the rest of your life and will probably need some external help. most of the shit said by CILONE/SK is the most ignorant shit i've ever heard, i don't care where you got your degree. the info you've given in this thread seems extremely unresearched and outdated. but hey, thats just my opinion.. oh wait, no its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorSeven Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK Disease: there is no way the a crackhead, wino or whatever is comparable to a person with Cancer, HIV, or many other diseases that they involuntarally contracted. A crackhead, wino can one day wake up and say that they want a better life, a terminal cancer paitent can not do that and the crackhead should not be in the same bracket as the cancer person. so all people contract HIV involuntarily? disagree again. Once you choose to have sex, whatever the other person has, you agreed to- its just your ignorance for not finding out if the person is clean or not- Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms- sounds like any other disease to me- I did not bring up cancer in this debate anywhere, I brought up HIV- Cancer is a completely different ballgame, but HIV is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunm Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 If anyone read my little story, hope you got something out of it. but then I realized it's better to keep some shit to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIZENO Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by CILONE/SK I want to continue this, but I am going home, I will reply back to all you haters tommorow. you just come off so high and mighty, but embedded in there is such an arrogance ... its astounding. you have no tolerance, and it shows. i do have to say a BA in psych is such a cop out of a major to have, and most that i know act like they know it all ... psych is good but it doent mean you know everything on all sides of the fence. i dont have an AA for that matter but i think observation with an open mind is better than any piece of paper that says you know about X. FUCK IT ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by LENS My gf and I wewre once addicted to smoking crystal meth. so you actually were a raver! (sorry... had to be said) certain drugs like the one you mentioned and things like crack have a very heavy case of reinforcement. If you do the drugs, you will know just how bad it is for you even then, you still take more. I know people who've pissed blood from using meth, but the next week they were back on the shit. With alcohol as well, it's really easy to know when you've had to much. The drug I have a problem with is the one that doesnt have any reinforcement. Your body doesnt tell you that you've had enough. booooo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave_one Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by ERIZENO i dont have an AA for that matter but i think observation with an open mind is better than any piece of paper that says you know about X. right on...i don't have a degree either. i don't know how to comment on this, bcuz i have never experienced real drug addiction, i feel bad for those who are addicted, but if you have the free will to use it then i'm sure you have the free will to stop using it as well. i have much respect and admiration for those who are able to overcome it. but if you ever steal from me or my family, you're out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by slave_one but if you have the free will to use it then i'm sure you have the free will to stop using it as well. no. nope. not correct. and also.... NO. Hasnt this been covered yet? You body changes as you do drugs (even alcohol and tobacco). There was a test on rats where they were offered cocaine, food and water at the same time. Well after a few days all the rats dies because they stopped eating the food and drinking the water. Those primal instincts to eat and drink so you stay alive were over rulled by the desire for a drug. Sure this was rats, but the same thing that can happen to people. You still going to say it's 'free will' to stop using drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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