UK Police State Updates Thread

[lord_casek]

Police criticised for staging mock burglaries

 

It was meant to be an imaginative way of highlighting how easy it is to break into people's homes – but police in Devon today faced criticism for posing as burglars and sneaking into the homes of unsuspecting residents and collecting valuables in "swag bags".

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/29/police-burglary-exeter

 

 

Video Surveillance deployed inside London Public Bathrooms

 

You can imagine my surprise after I paid my 50pence to use the public bathroom, walked in and found myself staring at not just one but three ceiling mounted video surveillance cameras. I had to get real close to their enclosures to convince myself that I wasn't seeing things. Not only was it really there, but it was a Pan-Tilt-Zoom model with a microphone to top it off. Must get some great noises coming from there. It has also been reported that London officials are now installing cameras with speakers to allow them to talk as well as see and listen. Perhaps its just me, but I had absolutely no idea that this was legal anywhere, let alone in downtown London, UK. Sure I knew that London has more cameras per square mile than any other country on the planet, but in bathrooms?! How are they getting away with that one? It is appalling!

 

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/58896

[lord_casek]

School condemned after pupils left in tears by mock shooting

 

Schoolchildren were left in tears after seeing one of their teachers shot down by a crazed gunman in the playground in a role-playing stunt organised by staff.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7519836/School-condemned-after-pupils-left-in-tears-by-mock-shooting.html

[Decyferon]

Considering that most of those public bathrooms are used either as places to rob, mug, rape or take drugs then I understand fully why they would install the cameras there, I don't have a problem with it but then again I wouldn't use a public bathroom if you paid me to. Also a lot of these sorts of cameras aren't manned cameras they are used in retrospect to gain evidence towards convictions, like the cameras on public buses and trains.

 

As for the shooting that is completely out of order, while alos being hilarious at the same time, I admit if my son was in that school I would go fuckign mental atthe school, but maybe it is something they could bring in in US schools, raise some awareness because it seems more kids die via guns than fires so having a gunman alarm test is a good idea.

 

Mock burglaries, well what can I say this is what happens when you let individual police forces decide for themselves what they want to do. Fucking idiots, but then it WAS Devon.

 

None of this is relevant to the UK being a police state either, yea London is filled with CCTV but it is hardly surprising.

[lord_casek]

Considering that most of those public bathrooms are used either as places to rob, mug, rape or take drugs then I understand fully why they would install the cameras there, I don't have a problem with it but then again I wouldn't use a public bathroom if you paid me to.

 

As for the shooting that is completely out of order, while alos being hilarious at the same time, I admit if my son was in that school I would go fuckign mental atthe school, but maybe it is something they could bring in in US schools, raise some awareness because it seems more kids die via guns than fires so having a gunman alarm test is a good idea.

 

Mock burglaries, well what can I say this is what happens when you let individual police forces decide for themselves what they want to do. Fucking idiots, but then it WAS Devon.

 

None of this is relevant to the UK being a police state either, yea London is filled with CCTV but it is hardly surprising.

 

 

It's very relevant. Haven't you read 1984?

 

 

Those mock shootings do go on here. It's not right. More times than not the children are unaware of any drill.

[Decyferon]

yea I have read 1984 and I have also worked for a local council and know the full extent that the cameras are manned etc. I don't like CCTV but then I don't have a problem with it either, CCTV has been in shops ever since I was a kid and I have never heard anyone complain about it, why can't local councils have CCTV up in the streets to protect the city just like a shop protects it's stock?

 

If people knew how to behave and didn't get pissed and fight in the streets or do shit like that then there would be a hell of a lot less need for this stuff, but a lot of this crime goes unpunished due to no evidence, try it now and you are caught on CCTV and banged to rights, and it does have a positive impact on crime, I'm not doing anything wrong so I have no need to worry about CCTV, simple as that.

 

I agree those mock shootings aren't right, but it still made me laugh.

 

I still don't believe that any of these stories are indicative of Britain being a police state. Talking from first hand experience.

[christo-f]

Yes, because movies are real.

 

 

 

 

Mock burglaries, what fucking brainiac though that idea up?!

[Decyferon]

Those mock burglaries are hilaroius, I can just imagine the constables in Devon after a night on the cider deciding that this would be a great idea to improve buglary awareness, can't wait for rape awareness week

[UPS!]

I dont know whats more disturbing, The fact that they actually put cameras in public restrooms or that people dont seem to have a problem with it.

 

I understand your statement about if your not doing anything wrong why worry about CCTV? Why be against it if they only use it to build evidence and convict criminals who do actually do some fucked up shit?

 

Ill tell you why, becuse it wont stop with restrooms. If you allow the goverment to place cameras in every nook and crany of our society soon our lives with be completly monitored by who really knows?

 

Next thing you know your ganna come home from work, kick back in your easy chair and be stairing right into a camera lens. That is the fucking problem

[Decyferon]

It is a public area, they have every right to put up CCTV there, no point arguing it because it is up to them, they could just turn round and say well fine we wont put CCTV up in the public bathrooms, we will instead just close them all (I would prefer them to close them all, no need for my taxes to go to pay for public toilets)

 

Yea if they tried putting CCTV up in private property then yea I would kick off completely about it, but this isn't private property, it is public property and the local councils have every right to put up the cameras. Do I agree with it, in some instances yea I do, I don't think we should have so much CCTV but I do understand their reasoning.

 

And CCTV is in every nook and crannie of our public life, it is on every street corner and in every city centre, it is in every shop and bar and club, every bus and train, just know where they are and not get caught if you are doing something dodgy.

[UPS!]

I see everything your saying and for the most part agree.

 

I will however continue to disagree that they have the right to place a camera in public bathrooms. As for it being public property thats all the more reason they dont have the right, as that it belongs to the public which consist of you and me who live, interact and pay for it.

 

Aside from that my point is more so that I feel they wont know when to stop and will continue to try and push the limits of society. If they recieve no resistance about something such as this, then they will be tempted to continue to control every aspect of public life.

[Decyferon]

Yea I have to admit I think it is highly dodgy that they put them in public bathrooms, maybe if they weren't focussed on urinals/cubicles nad were just viewing the 'public' space inside the bathroom that would be more acceptable, but again like you, I agree with the CCTV arguement but they do need to know where to stop.

[lord_casek]

This is the kind of discussion I wanted to spark.

 

Decy: What is Devon like?

[Decyferon]

Actually Devon is nice, countryside, coastline, small villages kinda the typical countryside/coast people probably image when they think of the UK. Think there are some OK surf spots too

[Mercer]

As far as the CCTV stuff goes, I'm somewhat split on that issue.

 

On one hand, as a photographer I understand peoples over sensitivity to the issue.

I've had people get mad thinking I was shooting their photo before but legally, in public areas it's all fair game.

Some people have a complex, like their some kind of celebrity or master criminal and people could cash in on a photo of them.

If there were stricter laws regarding photography/video in public I could see one of these assholes getting my camera seized by piggies.

Or worse yet, people being arrested for doing something completely normal today.

 

On the other hand, there are virtually no laws in place to protect people from CCTV misuse by law enforcement.

I mean, if some bitch has an ex cop boyfriend that's stalking her, he could theoretically follow here every move.

I can think of several instances where no rules regarding how the video system can be used could do more harm than good.

Being from the electronics industry and having a lot of experience with CCTV systems,

I know first hand how easy it would be to block misuse of these types of systems automatically.

 

This has nothing to do with England, sorry for the ramble.

[christo-f]

Yea I have to admit I think it is highly dodgy that they put them in public bathrooms, maybe if they weren't focussed on urinals/cubicles nad were just viewing the 'public' space inside the bathroom that would be more acceptable, but again like you, I agree with the CCTV arguement but they do need to know where to stop.

 

I would make the assumption that this was actually the case.

 

Having them in the urinals would an invasion of privacy and I could see all sorts of litigation over that. Surely just going to be in the hand-washing, drug selling, bashing area.

 

Personally, I couldn't give a shit. If it saves some poor old bloke who's just emptying his colostomy bag from being mugged by some junky fuck, then it's a good thing.

 

As for the slide of an invasion of privacy and over-bearing and intrusive government, I don't think this is the issue that needs to be cried out about. We all should always be paying attention to our rights and if they are being infringed, that's normal. But rights are not being infringed here (I assume they aren't watching you poo) and it is not a concrete indicator that they are about to bug your coffee grinder at home.

 

When it happens, push back. When it doesn't, who cares?

[christo-f]

.... and actually, that's a case in point.

 

Those mock burglaries, they'd have me out on the streets waving a placard if that were my town. That is DEFINITELY overstepping the mark, get the fuck out of my house!

 

In Australia the police are only allowed to enter a premises if they have a warrant, if they are invited or that they have reason to believe that there is a crime being committed or life is in danger.

 

I'd be SUPER pissed if some arsehole came in to my house like that. Police are humans, they are not impervious to temptation and beyond reproach. Who's to say that they didn't actually steal something, sniff my undies or feel my poor dog up?

[Decyferon]

the law is the same here Christo, those cops were breaking the law simple as that

[UPS!]

Again im not trying to beat a dead dog to death, my main arguement still stands that cameras in the public restrooms might not in themselves be infringing on peoples rights, but I think its about the closes they can get without doing so. Which with the goverment is never a good thing to let them get to place that could start to be a grey area.

 

As for the mock burglaries, If I had been home I would have treated them like any other invader in my household. That is too far, too ridiculous and honestly I cant believe its even allowed

[lord_casek]

David Cameron promises to create 'neighbourhood army'

 

David Cameron has said that a Conservative government would train a 5,000-strong "neighbourhood army" to set up community groups.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8596256.stm

[Decyferon]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100331/tuk-armed-raiders-face-jail-after-no-jur-dba1618.html

 

Four armed robbers are facing jail after being found guilty by a judge in an historic trial - the first to be heard without a jury. Skip related content

 

John Twomey, Peter Blake, Barry Hibberd and Glenn Cameron were convicted at the Old Bailey of charges relating to a £1.75 million heist at a Heathrow warehouse in February 2004.

 

New laws meant the trial could be heard by a judge alone after the Court of Appeal ruled there was a serious danger that a jury could be corrupted.

 

It was the first serious criminal trial to be held without a jury in England and Wales. There had been three previous failed attempts to try the case, lasting up to six months at a time.

 

The total cost to the taxpayer is estimated to be at least £25 million - more than 14 times the amount stolen.

 

At the end of the fourth trial, Mr Justice Treacy passed guilty verdicts on all four of the accused.

 

The "hallowed principle" of trial by jury was set aside by the Court of Appeal in June last year, in the first case using powers under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, but campaigners called the decision "a dangerous precedent".

 

 

Can't say I agree to a trial without a jury, however it does seem that this was an appeals case so I am unsure whether the original trial had a jury so I need to look into it more, but I agree with the dangerous precident statement.

 

I don't believe a word of what David Cameron has to say, Casek, He is a conservative/tory, they don't chage their spots, Margaret Thatcher and the Tories ruined this country and anyone dumb enough to vote conservative deserves to be royally fucked over. I was actually thinking about making an election thread because we have the general election coming up but the amount of brits on here would make it a very quiet thread ha.

[BLU]

Mobile fingerprint scanner for English and Welsh police

[Decyferon]

that is interesting BLU, I don't see it as a bad idea, if used properly, but there is the obvious danger that the police will use it when there is no reason to stop someone and then use it, if it then comes up that the person has a record they will try and pin anything on them, I swear people need to learn their rights when the police stop you because the vast majority don't have a clue and think the police can stop you and search you for any reason they like.

[i eat babies]

Decyferon your comments in this thread are really dissapointing. I generally enjoy reading what you have to say but your spouting some really conservative viewpoints here...

 

Everybody who values their freedom and doesn't want to live in a '1984-esque' world should be up in arms about this sort of thing. I know having cameras in public restrooms doesn't necessarily have a direct negative effect on our freedom, but it is a symptom of a growing problem in our society that constant surveillance is generally accepted when ever someone from the council or higher government says it's necessary. If public bathrooms are watched to stop crime, why not private areas? Afterall a vast number of violent crimes occur in the home... It's all small steps that gradually lead to a society where the people are completely at the mercy of their government.

 

Decyferon said that "I'm not doing anything wrong so I have no need to worry about CCTV, simple as that." And in some ways this is fair opinion, however you must realise that what is 'wrong' is completely subjective. In the last 10 years alone there have been hundreds of new offences and crimes created by our current government that were completely legal or at most frowned upon. Not to mention the different influences the international situation has had and will continue to have on our law-makers. Who's to say what new offences will be created in the coming years. You might be considered a law-breaker for living exactly the same lifestyle you live now in 10 years time.

 

A further point, although I'm not suggesting that our current government really has sinister, conspiritorial motives for increased surveillance you have to ask how future governments could use technology such as blanket cctv, dna database, id cards etc. Nobody in 1920s Germany took the Nazi party seriously but suddenly they had total control of the entire country and were able to commit some of the worst attrocities the world has ever seen. My grandmother was a jew but her entire family were raised as christians. Had it not been for their entire lives and histories being on file for the government to do with as they pleased they would probably have been spared. As it is I've had maybe 3 or 4 relatives on that side of the family who survived.

The BNP have been steadily growing, and when you look at history you see that extreme economic conditions bring about extreme opinions.

 

Our current government mearly uses cctv to try and solve problems they are otherwise not ingenious enough to solve. But it makes things very easy for a government which does have sinister motives..

 

I think our rejection of surveillance and other 'big-brother' ideas should be as much about violation of privacy and civil liberties in the present as security for future generations should they find themselves with a truly malicious government.

[Decyferon]

I do agree with a lot of the bigger issues that you are discussing there, I am totally against the proposed ID cards and I am not a supporter of CCTV, I can just see the arguements for it.

 

My comments really do depend on my mood at the time of writing, I am really not a conservative (far from it) and am dead against their viewpoint. I have ranted against CCTV to friends on numerous occasions, generally when it has interfered with my plans. I certainly make sure I know where CCTV is in my city and make sure that if I were to do anything wrong it would be in blind sopts or completely different areas.

 

To be honest I would be considered a law breaker, while I know I am doing nothing wrong (in general) I have certainly broken the law on many occasions and sometimes I have been ashamed of the things I have done, others I just think the law is plain wrong.

 

I don't have a problem with CCTV if it is used correctly, as in it is used to ather evidence when there have been violent crimes/rapes etc and the footage is used to gain a conviction, the same that I agree with football fans being recorded to catch hooligans, with everything in this world there are pluses and minuses. My comments about CCTV were more focussed on the point that the thread title is UK police state, which I don't believe it is, I barely ever see the police where I live.

 

Obviously I would rather they reduce the number of laws created and allow the police to do their real job of catching violent criminals, but sadly the police have so many petty duties to fulfil that local authorities and government rely on CCTV to be the all seeing eye as it were and record everything.

 

I think the difference between CCTV in public areas and government recording in private is that it is private, believe me I would be the first person on the frontline fighting if the government were trying to infringe on my private property to record what I was doing.

 

As for the BNP you do not want to get me started on those cunts, I would happily kill any one of the racist bastards and if they were to somehow gain control of this country I owuld be the first person on the boat with my family moving to the continent.

[i eat babies]

Fair enough. I was pretty sure from what I've read from you in the past that your comments were a bit more extreme than you intended. We all have our bad days.

 

You've expressed your arguments well and I see where you are coming from. Maybe I will come back tomorrow when I'm less tired/more political and I have some more points for you.

But for now, well played sir.

[lord_casek]

Digital Economy Bill Passes, File-Sharing Ends Soon

http://torrentfreak.com/digital-economy-bill-passes-file-sharing-end-soon-100608/

[Decyferon]

With regards to that Casek, I have heard a couple of ISPs claiming that they will not cut anyone off from their internet because it is too easy to piggy back onto others wifi etc. They have said only once a court order demands it will they disconnect and even then it is only a temporary measure as a warning

[lord_casek]

Nine things you can't do anymore

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49305426,00.htm?s_cid=96

[sneak]

I do agree with a lot of the bigger issues that you are discussing there, I am totally against the proposed ID cards and I am not a supporter of CCTV, I can just see the arguements for it.

 

My comments really do depend on my mood at the time of writing, I am really not a conservative (far from it) and am dead against their viewpoint. I have ranted against CCTV to friends on numerous occasions, generally when it has interfered with my plans. I certainly make sure I know where CCTV is in my city and make sure that if I were to do anything wrong it would be in blind sopts or completely different areas.

 

To be honest I would be considered a law breaker, while I know I am doing nothing wrong (in general) I have certainly broken the law on many occasions and sometimes I have been ashamed of the things I have done, others I just think the law is plain wrong.

 

I don't have a problem with CCTV if it is used correctly, as in it is used to ather evidence when there have been violent crimes/rapes etc and the footage is used to gain a conviction, the same that I agree with football fans being recorded to catch hooligans, with everything in this world there are pluses and minuses. My comments about CCTV were more focussed on the point that the thread title is UK police state, which I don't believe it is, I barely ever see the police where I live.

 

Obviously I would rather they reduce the number of laws created and allow the police to do their real job of catching violent criminals, but sadly the police have so many petty duties to fulfil that local authorities and government rely on CCTV to be the all seeing eye as it were and record everything.

 

I think the difference between CCTV in public areas and government recording in private is that it is private, believe me I would be the first person on the frontline fighting if the government were trying to infringe on my private property to record what I was doing.

 

As for the BNP you do not want to get me started on those cunts, I would happily kill any one of the racist bastards and if they were to somehow gain control of this country I owuld be the first person on the boat with my family moving to the continent.

 

i agree with a lot of this.

 

it always surprises me when i leave london for somewhere in europe, and there are no cctv cameras on the streets. its like im so used to seeing the fuckers high up there on their poles pointing each way that when i go somewhere without them it un nerves me slightly...

 

it is wierd however, how used to cctv you can become. im a 24 year old london living male. i grew up in the age of cctv, ive never (or cant remember) a london without it.

 

trains, busses, street corners, shops, shopping centres, roadside, motorway side, trackside etc etc.

 

also, as decy said i get into various moods regarding them. at times i dont like them, at times i do. i definatly see the point as to why we need them - remember we were dealing with irish terrorists long before the muslim ones came along - and i can fully support them in cases such as football hooligans, rapes, muggings and all that.

 

on the other hand, i am at times a criminal in the eyes of society and then you would imagine cctv would become an issue for me. but it doesnt.

 

take graff for example. london is still heavily bombed - lets leave the style issues out of this though! - shit gets done with or without cameras. in my local area i know what the location and limits of each camera are and im sure others do too. its just another obstical.

 

im rambling and feel like ive strayed / forgotten where i was originally going so ill sign off here.

[work yr soul]

apparently CCTV encourages people to report crimes committed against them. to me thats pretty much the only good thing about it. although something like 80% of crimes in London still go unsolved. studies also show that its at its most effective in car parks. :lol: other than that i am totally opposed to it.

 

i think the millions (billions?) spent on CCTV would be better off being used to tackle poverty and improve education. installing thousands of fucking cameras is like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.