DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Anybody who is against socialized healthcare is a complete asshole. I hope all of you assholes have a heart attack and either can't afford or aren't permitted treatment by your HMO...and die. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 this is a crossfire conversation. americans have a complete dependency on prescription drugs and live as hypochondriacs. the only reason socialized healthcare is even to be considered is because the fact that the drug companies (who sponsor cnn, ha) promote that dependency and fear to the american people. the urgent need for health care is because of ludicrous diseases and disorders/or by people that have fucked their bodies up by consuming garbage their whole lives (and taking pills with unknown side effects...). free us from that--give us an eastern method of medicine and we'll eliminate the majority of hospital visits. if people live their whole lives not giving a shit about their bodies and then die, its on them not their HMO. fuck 'em, we don't need shitbags to further our species in any way. the strong survive, yeah? your punk rock rhetoric is a joke guy, you've yet to make a single legitimate point or idea. if you really want the money that you work for (probably hard for) to go to health care for waste-of-space oxygen-thieves through taxes, then by all means, do what you can through votes and letters to your congress (i'm sure you don't do that, though). i'm not even slightly worried about my health care bud, the US citizens pay for what i need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serum Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 i downloaded sicko about a month ago. i think he did a great job. the point is to get people aware of the topic and discuss it. so he's already succeeded. it isnt the purest of documentaries but he is trying to balance out the already ultra right wing tv stations way of doing journalism. the thing that makes this even better than his past works is that he has most likely listened to his critics and taken the majority of himself out of it and his surprise visits to corporate headquarters. the people tell the story and it works. he even has said in interviews that sure other countries systems are not perfect but lets take what is good about them and apply that to our own system. my sister is a nurse for pre-me babies and she said that for twins that are born early costs 1 million dollars. thats more than most people make thier whole lives. basically i feel the reason that people dont like moore on this issue has more to do with tax money than healthcare. taxes scare the hell out of rich people and they dont want them to go to paying for other peoples hospital bills. im all for socialized systems that pay all my medical and my kids university. i'd willingly pay the higher taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 this is a crossfire conversation. americans have a complete dependency on prescription drugs and live as hypochondriacs. the only reason socialized healthcare is even to be considered is because the fact that the drug companies (who sponsor cnn, ha) promote that dependency and fear to the american people. the urgent need for health care is because of ludicrous diseases and disorders/or by people that have fucked their bodies up by consuming garbage their whole lives (and taking pills with unknown side effects...). free us from that--give us an eastern method of medicine and we'll eliminate the majority of hospital visits. if people live their whole lives not giving a shit about their bodies and then die, its on them not their HMO. fuck 'em, we don't need shitbags to further our species in any way. the strong survive, yeah? your punk rock rhetoric is a joke guy, you've yet to make a single legitimate point or idea. if you really want the money that you work for (probably hard for) to go to health care for waste-of-space oxygen-thieves through taxes, then by all means, do what you can through votes and letters to your congress (i'm sure you don't do that, though). i'm not even slightly worried about my health care bud, the US citizens pay for what i need. With socialized medicine there wouldn't be Pfiser ads on tv. Everybody gets sick and injured, not just people that eat McDonalds everyday you fucking asshole. What "Punk rock" rhetorica are you talking about? WHo the fuck said anything about Punk rock? We're talking about real world shit here. True story, if this wasn't the internet I'd feed you your teeth and send you to the ER to rack up a G in bills just on gp of your ignorance. You have insurane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 good thoughts serum. i'm not convinced that social health care is the solution to the cost of primi twins, though. the reason the cost is so high is because of doctors' wages and inflated costs on everything hospital related. its the health industry that needs to be changed, eliminate the greed factor that is so prevalent. once these people work for reasonable wages then health care will be far more affordable. (the elevated cost of rx name brand drugs is another story...) thats my take... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Also, of all the fucking money that comes out of my paycheck for bullshit wars and to enforce bullshit laws that I don't even support.... Of all my tax money that's squandered on bullshit that has nothing to do with me... I'D BE DAMN GLAD TO GIVE UP A FEW MORE DOLLARS OUT OF MY PAYCHECK IF IT MEANS THAT I CAN GET MY TEETH FIXED OR GET MY SHIT FIXED IF I GET HIT BY A CAR AND MY LEGS BROKE. OR IF I GOT CANCER AND NEEDED SURGERY. AND ANYONE WHO'D RATHER RACK UP THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON ER VISITS OR TAKE A GAMBLE ON PAYING ALL THAT MONEY FOR INSURANCE THAT'S GONNA LEAVE YOU HANGING WHEN YOU NEED THEM IS A FUCKING MORON!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serum Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 fist666 thats a fair enough view and i do agree that americans are hypochondriacs but how do you take out the capital gain of making the drugs and still have enough incentive on doing the research to make the miracle cures? also the hospitals run themselves like businesses and anything that they arent getting paid on they arent going to do. then alot of doctors decide on where they are going to practice according to what their malpractice insurance will be. with cost of med school, insurance into the equation it will be pretty difficult to convince them on taking a smaller paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 With socialized medicine there wouldn't be Pfiser ads on tv. Everybody gets sick and injured, not just people that eat McDonalds everyday you fucking asshole. What "Punk rock" rhetorica are you talking about? WHo the fuck said anything about Punk rock? We're talking about real world shit here. True story, if this wasn't the internet I'd feed you your teeth and send you to the ER to rack up a G in bills just on gp of your ignorance. You have insurane? i call every democrat, socialist, or liberal a punk rocker. don't take it personally, or do. did you just threaten me over the internet guy? aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahhaahaha. yes, more than shitbags go to the hospital and need medical attention. western medicine can help a plethora of legitimate ailments. and it wouldn't hurt for those to be treated in an affordable fashion. i'd bet a solid percentage of hospital visits could be eliminated through (time machines could save us all) eating healthy and living right. the health care system is fucked, i'll not question that for a minute, but this isn't crossfire fucker, get back to why i should support moore's technique. sweetheart, go ahead and assault a soldier because he's capable of arguing and you're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 serum yeah, its one of those things that maybe its too far to revamp. starting from the ground up is impossible at this point. its been as this for far too long and its not going to change with a few bills and mandates. i don't know. i don't know what to offer as solution, its really all fucked... as far as profit and meds... there has to be some. thats what we're driven by in today's society (not that its right, just fact...). the degree of inflation that is inarguably extreme, it'll take some good hearted biochemists and their investors to change that... also i think there are alot of philanthropists who lose family to this or that disease who make donations to research to keep it going. esp. cancer, aids, and Alzheimer's. so thats a small difference thats being made there... i'm going to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 i call every democrat, socialist, or liberal a punk rocker. don't take it personally, or do. Even more example that you're a fucking retard. I've already proved this and so have other people on here. But you're just too thick to get it. Because you're fucking retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 this is a crossfire conversation. americans have a complete dependency on prescription drugs and live as hypochondriacs. the only reason socialized healthcare is even to be considered is because the fact that the drug companies (who sponsor cnn, ha) promote that dependency and fear to the american people. the urgent need for health care is because of ludicrous diseases and disorders/or by people that have fucked their bodies up by consuming garbage their whole lives (and taking pills with unknown side effects...). free us from that--give us an eastern method of medicine and we'll eliminate the majority of hospital visits. if people live their whole lives not giving a shit about their bodies and then die, its on them not their HMO. fuck 'em, we don't need shitbags to further our species in any way. the strong survive, yeah? your punk rock rhetoric is a joke guy, you've yet to make a single legitimate point or idea. if you really want the money that you work for (probably hard for) to go to health care for waste-of-space oxygen-thieves through taxes, then by all means, do what you can through votes and letters to your congress (i'm sure you don't do that, though). i'm not even slightly worried about my health care bud, the US citizens pay for what i need. I don't buy your argument, because I know better. In 1996, I was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease. At the time, I was on a macrobiotic diet, was 5'10" 135 pounds, with no fat, I rode a bicycle to work, and I rarely drank. I did not have health insurance, so I could not afford the treatments from the doctor. I tried every natural medicine cure out there with no improvement for nearly ten years. In the process, I had two surgeries, nearly bled to death twice, and was barely functional for about half of every year. Even when i got insurance, I couldn't get things payed for. Finally, I was able to get Remicaid, through a charity. Now I have been well for a whole year. If we had universal healthcare, I would have received this medicine 10 years ago, my family, my wife and I would have been saved a lot of heartache. Sometimes people just get sick, even if they make all the right choices. Our system is cruel because it lets people suffer and possibly die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Something I forgot earlier, that .coma reminded me of. If you take even the most introductory logic courses they teach you that an attack on person is one of the main four or five fallacies of classic logic. Rather, as .coma said; an attack on the messenger of a perspective in no way discredits the message they carry. Anywho, just a thought to bring up again that can maybe solve all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 and damn... macrobiotic, I have only ever met two of you kids. both at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Even more example that you're a fucking retard. I've already proved this and so have other people on here. But you're just too thick to get it. Because you're fucking retarded. you've no sense of wit, huh? no ability to laugh whatsoever... no post has completely put me down or made me "retarded" (shouldn't you be PC hippie?). russel's and serum's examples of obstacles within the current system push both for socialized health care or revamping of our current system. this wasn't that serious of a conversation to begin with and your thong is so far up your ass you've lost the point. i wasn't here to argue for or against any health issues. this argument was about how can moore improve himself and technique to have his films be more effective in reaching/moving people and "turning the tide." seriously though D A 1er, show me where my argument's been crushed and i've lost and i'll stop, otherwise you ought to live because you're arguing from the heart (butt hurt heart) not mind. you haven't "proved" shit and thank you crooked for the thought on attacking the messenger. its applicable to both myself and those arguing against me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I don't buy your argument, because I know better. In 1996, I was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease. At the time, I was on a macrobiotic diet, was 5'10" 135 pounds, with no fat, I rode a bicycle to work, and I rarely drank. I did not have health insurance, so I could not afford the treatments from the doctor. I tried every natural medicine cure out there with no improvement for nearly ten years. In the process, I had two surgeries, nearly bled to death twice, and was barely functional for about half of every year. Even when i got insurance, I couldn't get things payed for. Finally, I was able to get Remicaid, through a charity. Now I have been well for a whole year. If we had universal healthcare, I would have received this medicine 10 years ago, my family, my wife and I would have been saved a lot of heartache. Sometimes people just get sick, even if they make all the right choices. Our system is cruel because it lets people suffer and possibly die. sorry. i should have clarified. i don't believe eastern medicine is the be all/end all. chemo saved my mother and others in my extended family. there should be something within our system that can accommodate more extreme cases. i'll not argue otherwise, its unfortunate that so many suffer because of a lack of funds. this is a whole different conversation but its where my standpoint is (let the hate flow...) we are animals. we've evolved minds and birthed society and compassion. but at our simplest the very basic rule of survival of the fittest should still apply. (tragically with our society fittest has come, often, to mean wealthiest). i'm not trying to come across as heartless or show a stern no-compassion face, it just needs to be admitted that not everyone is meant to live a long healthy life. heartache will always exist. as will pain and death. modern science has created alibis and go-passes to much of what nature and chaos dish upon our species, but we cannot eliminate the "god" factor that we ARE not in control... back to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 The issue with this, and believe me I think about it a lot, is that you have to give that we are well beyond defining what "the fittest" is. Intelligence, strength and health are not always determiners of what is the most fit animal to fill a niche in an ecosystem. And since we define ecosystems it becomes even harder to determine our position in them. Basically, I think your argument, at this point, struggles in that we are in no objective position to determine who the fittest is. Only time determines these things. We can look statistically at past evolutionary flourishments and understand why what animals gained predominance in a given ecosystems. A simple thought experiment will elucidate my point: Who is the better animal; the intelligent and well provided for human or the less socio-economical stable less intelligent human? An immediate thought would say well it is the one that is better off in life and in our society. They can function better and provide better for any potential offspring. However, it is to the contrary that I would argue. How often do you see well off family's with large numbers of children? More oft then not you go to wal-mart and you will see tons of family's that are most certainly not in the best positions, and they will have more children on average than the well off family. My point is that social standards of fitness or being better are not necessarily the easiest way to say how we are fit, or otherwise. So extending that out into the realm of medicine applies. Yes, contemporary health in our society is so fucked and messed up that I do agree in that we are fucking with the boundaries of who should naturally be dead, and otherwise, but you have to give that if we are animals, anyhting we do is of our animal instinct. Including the impulse to stay alive. Thus if we fuck up those boundaries under that impulse it becomes even harder and more muddled to appeal to a "natural" notion of death and life. Don't deny a certain sort of animal vs. soul dualism and then step right back into it when it seems to fit your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 i agree with you. physical fitness and wealth and education do not mean "fittest" in our society. the lower/middle classes do tend to have larger families and perhaps their genes will last longer, but being social creatures where and to what extent do we place value on quality of life (not just materials) ? consciousness has eliminated instinctual tendencies. with reason and then culture we stepped away from being simply animals. i don't want to be the one to pass judgment as god and say that the poor will die. i'm not going to claim that my theories on life are wholly established or even completely rational. i'm misanthropic and pissed about it... at this stage in this discussion i'm no longer arguing/preaching my thoughts, these are less established areas of my thinking/mindset. its as much questions and throwing out ideas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanfullofretards Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Anybody who is against socialized healthcare is a complete asshole. I hope all of you assholes have a heart attack and either can't afford or aren't permitted treatment by your HMO...and die. End of story. Try looking at the other side of the argument. Wouldn't you want to be in charge of your own healthcare rather than some faceless bureaucrat? Fuck putting more trust into the government. Ron Paul on healthcare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 ron paul ron paul ron paul... when homeboy does something real. thats when i'll pay attention to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Uh oh, someone mentioned class in this argument... Time to go to Moe's!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanfullofretards Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 ron paul ron paul ron paul... when homeboy does something real. thats when i'll pay attention to him. What do you mean? He's introduced countless bills into congress but always gets shot down. What else could he do as a congressman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 ron paul ron paul ron paul... when homeboy does something real. thats when i'll pay attention to him. haha! everything he is ever done in congress has been 'real.' introducing legislation to repeal the federal reserve, irs, various departments, restore various civil liberties, withdraw troops from iraq, and has dont so while catching flack from everyone and hasnt waivered one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 introducing legislation is nothing if you can not get support. i have said this in countless conversations with AOD, being idealistic and trying to accomplish everything at once doesn't work in this country. you have to work within confines to make things change. ron paul just puts legislation that is never gonna get support. as much as i hate it, politics is politics. get it done and then ill support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 there is no more sure of a way to guarantee that something will never happen than to stop talking about it. ideas are very important. for instance, i know this isnt to popular with much of the board, but barry goldwater in 1964, was nominated as the republican presidential candidate. he said things that were very much out of the ordinary for most americans. he lost that year. but his ideas didnt. he created a movement. soon, that same movement elected ronald reagan in 1980. although he betrayed most of his rhetoric, the idea still remains. ron paul is a bright shining example of what a politician can do. we just need 534 more like him. standing up tall for what he believes in is un heard of in 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I also, don't necessarily agree with everything he stands for. As you and I have argued about before, you are much more a person who believes in the personal credibility and ability of people to maintain society through personal choice and interaction. I do not. You do not believe in federal social programs. I do. There many issues that you and I see very differently on, which feeds into my distaste for Paul's rhetoric. While I laud many of the issues he tries to push I think it is unfortunately impossible at this time in humanity and the history of our country to believe in candidacy like his, or to even believe in some of the things he and you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I thought this was awesome. More people need to explode like this when they're being insulted on TV. I was under the impression that Moore had a nice chunk of stock in Halibuton, right around the time that he was putting out Fahrenheit 9/11, which led me not to really trust the man. However I never looked into it, it was just something I seen in some article a while ago. I seen Sicko, and it's pretty good. Seriously makes me want to move to Canada or France. Not having to really worry about hospital bills and the like, regardless to the tax, would be a real comforting thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 if you're truly worried about your insurance and health care then join the military, shit is totally free. dental. vision. the works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serum Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 i recently read an article on hundreds of amputees sent home from iraq that would probably say different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 yeah. unfortunately there is a lot of sheisty shit going on in that aspect. i cannot compliment the military or government for their behavior regarding injured veterans. it is a travesty. but... while i'm here and not in the sandbox (with no injuries) i am set... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Try looking at the other side of the argument. Wouldn't you want to be in charge of your own healthcare rather than some faceless bureaucrat? Fuck putting more trust into the government.[/url] Ron Paul on healthcare Well since (like the vast majority of everybody) I'm not a fucking MILLIONARE, I'll take any healthcare I can get over none at all. And I can't believe you people actually believe that in countries with socialized medicine(every western civilized country besides us) that its a fucking bureaucrat that you see when you go to the hospital. It's a fucking DOCTOR that sees you. For Crist sake get your heads out of your asses. Seriously. What the fuck??? Fuck this crossfire shit. The level of stupidity of some of you people is enough to make my head feel like it's going to explode. I swear you people just flip a coin on what side you're going to take and just keep repeating yourselves in circles over... and over... and over... just for the sake of arguing. I don't even bother reading anything fist666 has to say anymore because I already know it's gonna be the same paragraph of nonsense that's already been shot down countless times by a handfull of people in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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