why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[shai]

you all have too much time on your hands

 

He's right, you know...but, that's coming from someone with a wife and, what, four kids? No time to speak of for Dawood, but he's got a point.

[El Mamerro]

Isn't it a kid and four wives?

[lord_casek]

For example' date=' whatever happened to the Mossad angle? I do remember seeing some pretty nifty stuff about that, what ever happened to that?[/quote']

 

there was a mossad agent on board one of the planes. i forget which one.

[TheOh]

http://www.sundayherald.com/37707

 

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

 

 

Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay investigates

 

 

THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

 

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

 

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

 

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.” Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].”

 

If Israel’s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world’s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

 

It’s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She’s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

 

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here’s her recollection: “They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.”

 

Maria jotted down the van’s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

 

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.”

 

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

 

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

 

His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

 

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,” the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’”

 

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis’ names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists”.

 

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

 

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they’d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

 

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

 

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculous”. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were “simply false”. The men themselves claimed they’d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn’t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

 

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.

 

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

 

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad – whose motto is “By way of deception, thou shalt do war” – was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

 

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were “tie-ins” between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they’d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

 

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.” Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it’s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush’s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

 

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an “organised intelligence-gathering operation” designed to “penetrate government facilities”. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces – but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

 

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves “Israeli art students” and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls “may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity”. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis “targeted and penetrated military bases” as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.

 

A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

 

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells”.

 

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg – where another Mossad team was operating close by.

 

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments “right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi”. More than a third of the Israeli “art students” claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

 

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that’s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects – on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack “outside the United States”.

 

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as “simply untrue”. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

 

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were “completely untrue”. She said the men were arrested because of “visa violations”, adding: “The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.”

 

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: “If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.” Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for “conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US ally”. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

 

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy” nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.”

 

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.

[ASER1NE]

Im gonna call bullshit on that story...

There were how many ppl recording or photographing the events that day, Whose going to notice 5 "Israelis".

More over what kind of 1/4 assed intelligence agency has their agents dancing around in the open filming...

 

Sounds like BS

[El Mamerro]

I'm thinking more on what was posted on this thread ages back. The link isn't working anymore though, but it was a pretty big paper I believe.

[fermentor666]

Sounds like more Jew-hating propaganda to me. ASER1NE's got it right.

[TheOh]

and here lies the problem. you call it jew-hating propaganda but i remember reading it from several different sources and the other articles i read were taking a much more sinister tone in regards to the Israelis. the source i linked is a Scottish newspaper. and remember its ONE reporter detailing a story from his pov. and of course no one is going to notice 5 ISRAELIS. you would however notice 5 PEOPLE DANCING AND SMILING while towers crash to the ground. so who knows for sure if its trash or not? i sure dont and i dont think you do either. what do you think about the story of the Israeli isp Odigo warning many jews of 9/11 beforehand telling them not to go to work on that day? is that just jew-hating propaganda too? SF mayor Willie Brown was warned not to fly that day also. John Ashcroft wasnt flying for months prior to 9/11. "sounds like" doesnt prove much.

[lord_casek]

i remember hearing only one about 3 white males on the bridge into manhattan videotaping the planes.

[rushawn wuan]

[ASER1NE]

. and of course no one is going to notice 5 ISRAELIS. you would however notice 5 PEOPLE DANCING AND SMILING while towers crash to the ground. so who knows for sure if its trash or not?

Thats exactly my point, any 'israeli' intelligence agency or terrorist or even dumb redneck criminal who had anything to do with that serious a crime wouldnt be stupid enough to be "dancing around and smiling" clearly attracting suspicion

[TheOh]

point taken.

 

let me just say that i dont have a solid opinion of who is responsible. what i do believe is that it wasnt who the government has told us was responsible. Israel seems to be from what i have seen (and i am by no means an expert) pretty insolated from any negative attacks, we do give them a good amount of money. im not saying theyre responsible but if it was an inside job (which i believe it was) an ally would be a pretty good choice as it would draw little suspicion.

[HardyHarHar]

bullshit

hate to be a prejudiced east coast elitist, but Brigham and Young University? come on.

[fermentor666]

Hey, it's better than BAYLOR University. Baptists! Teaching science!

[Obvious]

another thing i gotta add:

 

the leftwing conspiracy theorists that want to say the intense heat from the flaming fuel wasn't hot enough to weaken the steel structure (which it was) -- for arguments sake, we'll pretend the thousands of gallons of jet-fuel fire wasn't hot enough to weaken the steel -- now, they also fail to admit that the structure was already weakened at the time impact, when many of the steel supports from all four sides of the building were taken out -- the "impact crater" in the support structure was roughly 9 floors high on each tower, and approximately 100 feet in width. the exterior i-beams on the external skeleton (the main support structure for the towers), as well as the internal central pillar (the secondary support structure), were both severely damaged at the time of impact. by this notion alone, you obviously can conclude support structures were strained, as there were now fewer support beams (at the impact zone) to support the weight of the 35 floors above it.

 

to those that use the argument "no steel skyscraper in history ever collapsed as the result of a fire..." well, no steel skyscraper that was on fire was the result of a plane filled with fuel hitting it. none of those steel skyscrapers actually had major support pillars taken out as the result of a large commercial aircraft traveling 500mph! they were simply on fire. and the fire wasn't thousands of gallons of jet fuel intended to take commercial airliners across the world.

 

another thing -- if there were "controlled explosions" with c-4 -- why would someone plant the explosives right in the same place where the planes were supposed to hit? the planes hitting where the c-4 was "planted," would either a.) destroy the wiring, setup of the explosives, and perhaps dislodge the explosives from the buildings themselves, or b.) the intense fire/heat and explosion from the plane would trigger the explosion of the "planted" c-4 on impact... neither happened. and there is no way c-4 explosives, or any explosive would remain intact, or at least functionally intact after a jet plane hit its location.

[lord_casek]

ok, let me address this as best i can.

 

none of those planes were fully fueled. the explosion(s) resulting from impact would burn up quite a bit of that. elevators were hermetically sealed, therefore preventing any fires from reaching to lower floors. true, support structures were compromised, but how many support beams do you think there were in wtc's 1 & 2?

 

planes have hit buildings. there was fire. there were no collapses. google.

 

the buildings (wtc complex) were designed to take the imapct of large planes striking them.

 

c-4? no. thermate. sulfur, aluminum powder, and iron oxide. some other chems can be added to make it burn hotter and with explosive discharge. it normally burns at around 5000 degrees fahrenheit. enough to cut a giant steel girder like a hot knife through butter.

 

why would they crash planes into the places they planted explosives? they wouldn't. they didn't even think the planes would bring down the buildings. that is why you can see liquid hot iron coming out of the windows before the buildings fell. that is whjy you can see blast points poofing out of windows before it crashes. that is why the buildings fall at free fall speed. that is why there are columns chopped in extreme angles (what is commonly done when demolitions crews bring down buildings)

 

also: jet fuel doesn't burn as hot as you think it does. (i.e. kerosene)

http://www.brownoil.com/msdskerosene.htm

 

 

 

you won't win. especially when the NIST reports say there is sulfur picked up in test samples of wtc metal that cannot be explained.

[lord_casek]

bullshit

hate to be a prejudiced east coast elitist, but Brigham and Young University? come on.

 

are you a phsyics professor who has worked for the dept of energy? know anything about fusion? done studies on it for govt organizations? didn't think so.

 

 

dr. jones has.

[lord_casek]

point taken.

 

let me just say that i dont have a solid opinion of who is responsible. what i do believe is that it wasnt who the government has told us was responsible. Israel seems to be from what i have seen (and i am by no means an expert) pretty insolated from any negative attacks, we do give them a good amount of money. im not saying theyre responsible but if it was an inside job (which i believe it was) an ally would be a pretty good choice as it would draw little suspicion.

 

there was a mossad agent listed as one of the passengers.

[Larry Pubes]

the mossad agent...where is that info from? seems like a curious piece of info. i did a cursory search and found nothing.

[lord_casek]

the mossad agent...where is that info from? seems like a curious piece of info. i did a cursory search and found nothing.

 

ya know what larry? i don't know if i can back this up right off the bat

because it was actually back in 2001, but it was in newspapaers and on the news.

i remember the anchors once questioning why he couldn't stop the hijackers

with the boxcutters and such.

 

something else fishy: most of these flights (on a day to day average) from dulles to l.a.

and such are packed. all the planes that got jacked weren't even half capacity.

that correlates to operation northwoods where the planes would be half filled with cia agents

posing as college students. the planes would be replaced by drones at a point and then blown up, blaming the cubans. very odd shit. i'll keep up the looking for the mossad agent thing.

[lord_casek]

The secret story of Mossad and the World Trade Center attack

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive/mossad.htm

 

 

big article. still looking for the passenger manifest

[ASER1NE]

another thing i gotta add:

 

to those that use the argument "no steel skyscraper in history ever collapsed as the result of a fire..." well, no steel skyscraper that was on fire was the result of a plane filled with fuel hitting it. none of those steel skyscrapers actually had major support pillars taken out as the result of a large commercial aircraft traveling 500mph! they were simply on fire. and the fire wasn't thousands of gallons of jet fuel intended to take commercial airliners across the world.

 

Yes their has

[Obvious]

ok, let me address this as best i can.

 

none of those planes were fully fueled. the explosion(s) resulting from impact would burn up quite a bit of that. elevators were hermetically sealed, therefore preventing any fires from reaching to lower floors. true, support structures were compromised, but how many support beams do you think there were in wtc's 1 & 2?

 

planes have hit buildings. there was fire. there were no collapses. google.

 

the buildings (wtc complex) were designed to take the imapct of large planes striking them.

 

c-4? no. thermate. sulfur, aluminum powder, and iron oxide. some other chems can be added to make it burn hotter and with explosive discharge. it normally burns at around 5000 degrees fahrenheit. enough to cut a giant steel girder like a hot knife through butter.

 

why would they crash planes into the places they planted explosives? they wouldn't. they didn't even think the planes would bring down the buildings. that is why you can see liquid hot iron coming out of the windows before the buildings fell. that is whjy you can see blast points poofing out of windows before it crashes. that is why the buildings fall at free fall speed. that is why there are columns chopped in extreme angles (what is commonly done when demolitions crews bring down buildings)

 

also: jet fuel doesn't burn as hot as you think it does. (i.e. kerosene)

http://www.brownoil.com/msdskerosene.htm

 

 

 

you won't win. especially when the NIST reports say there is sulfur picked up in test samples of wtc metal that cannot be explained.

 

 

you say "you won't win," but the widely accepted and most "common sense" reason that the towers collapsed, were because two planes hit the buildings at around 500mph, and both the impact and the ensuing massive and intense jet-fuel fire weakened the support structure to the point where they could no longer hold the 30+ floors above it. so, i think it is up to you and your conspiracy theory cronies to "win" your views over into the mainstream. because as of now, most experts and officials, including most 911 survivors and families of victims do not accept a conspiracy theory.

 

these conspiracies about planted explosions in the wtc, a missle hitting the pentagon, and a missle hitting flight 93 are all a slap in the face to the victims and their families.

[lord_casek]

no, you won't win the argument because you can't back up what you claim.

 

 

missile hitting the pentagon? nah, it was something, but not a missile. if it was

the plane they say it was, they would've released the whole video. or the other 60 vids they have. a missile is flase flagging it and making a distraction for the real deal.

 

 

since when have you seen not one, but 3 buildings fall into their footprints as a result of anything but a demolition?

 

 

what is a disgrace to the families of the victims of september 11th is the lack of truthfulness

about what happened. what's a bigger disgrace is people like who defending something that you heard or saw on fox news.

 

 

you're in the military, right? currently?

[Obvious]

no, you won't win the argument because you can't back up what you claim.

 

 

missile hitting the pentagon? nah, it was something, but not a missile. if it was

the plane they say it was, they would've released the whole video. or the other 60 vids they have. a missile is flase flagging it and making a distraction for the real deal.

 

 

since when have you seen not one, but 3 buildings fall into their footprints as a result of anything but a demolition?

 

 

what is a disgrace to the families of the victims of september 11th is the lack of truthfulness

about what happened. what's a bigger disgrace is people like who defending something that you heard or saw on fox news.

 

 

you're in the military, right? currently?

 

you haven't provided any proof that explosives were planted. other than speculation, some comments about firefighters saying "it was like an explosion," claims of "sulfur" being found in that giant mass of rubble... how about some admittance or witnesses seeing explosives being planted. if you, and the other conspiracy actually had proof then you'd also have no problem putting it out in the mainstream for people to see. if you truly "won" the argument, then you wouldn't be here arguing with me, you'd be currently taking credit for exposing an administration and having the majority of Americans accepting your conspiracy as "truth." your "truth," along with all the mountains of proof you claim exist, would then be all over the news and broadcast all around the world, including on Fox News. and those involved in the conspiracy would be awaiting trial.

 

instead, it is far more widely accepted around the world that bin Laden (who admitted to being involved in 9/11 on two seperate tapes, one released in 2001 and the other in 2004) and Khaled Sheikh Mohammed (the chief planner of 9/11) are the masterminds of the attacks, and that it was no "inside job."

 

as far as the pentagon -- it was a plane because people in the DC area saw a plane flying low before it exploded. and of course, the many passengers and the attendants and pilots are no longer around, and their families confirm it. i guess the conspiracy nutjobs think these people either a.) never existed, or b.) those people were abducted by aliens or the military and taken to an undisclosed location

 

yes, i was in the military from '00 to '04.

[lord_casek]

ok:

 

the NIST (national institute of science and technology) report that there were "unexplainable traces of sulfur in some of the molten metal". a phsyics professor has found further proof that it is indeed thermate in the molten metal. there were more than firefighters that heard and saw explosions going off. it's in the radio records. you can view this in the nade' (spelling?) brothers film. it's firsthand, live at the scene accounts. you can see plumes of smoke burtsting out a bit before the buildings actually collapse. there are several tapes of this.

 

second: bin laden never claimed to have taken part in september 11th. check the interview in aprade magazine circa 2001. as far as the video tape "proof" that guy is fat and alot different looking than osama bin laden looks. he also speaks in a dialect indicative that arabic is not his first language. voice analysts attest to this.

 

third: america has teken part in terrorism for a long time. it's called "false flag terrorism".

see: iran 50's kermit roosevelt. also: operation northwoods, etc etc etc etc.

 

as for the pentagon: i didn't dispute it being a plane. as for the people whereabouts, see operation northwoods. cool have been a drone. check up on the passenger manifest and thos peoples history.

 

also: check out why those transcontintental flights were not packed, as they usually are.

again, see operation northwoods. i won't bother explaining what it entails, as i have done this too many times already.

[ASER1NE]

Theres simply no way that what the gov't said happened is EXACTLY what did happen, there is way too many problems with their account.

 

Its pointless to try and change someones opinion when theyve already decided they wont have their opinion changed

[lord_casek]

well, there's a problem with military people. they get brainwashed into believing that what they are defending is the "old america", this isn't that america. hasn't been for awhile. what they are fighting for is the elitists and their agendas.

 

it's cool to defend your fellow citizens. military or not. it's great to believe in this country. but you've got to start waking up and waking others up once you see that america is a business now. it makes super rich/powerful people even more rich and more powerful. that needs to stop.

 

the more you educate people, especially military and police, the more chances we ahve not to get our guns taken or have our consititutional rights violated.

[fermentor666]

casek makes a pretty good case, although I think that the part about Osama not being Osama is not such a great arguement. I think that with all the ten billion videos he has put out since then, he would have said so.

[lord_casek]

that's just it, fermentor, some of the videos are faked. some are real.

most of the new ones are video clips from old stuff. that is reported in

several instances.

 

look at that pic i posted. look at it really closely.

 

in fact, the fbi, just a week or so ago said they have no conclusive evidence to prove osama had anything to do with september 11th. the cia closed their files on him.

there's no more group from the cia hunting bin laden.

you wouldn't think that would happen if he did something, right?

 

http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/nw_national/article/0,2564,ALBQ_19860_4833869,00.html

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/05/terror/main1776250.shtml

 

 

 

p.s.: i'm glad you're starting to understand that i'm not a wacko conspiracy theorist.