why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[Kisama]

no, i haven't. read the sites and they all back up their claims from numerous experts, expose how conspiracy theorists take witness words out of context, etc...

 

i remember a reporter near the pentagon said that the plane was "like a missle." the conspiracy theorists jumped on that statement like flies to shit. the same reporter found out about it and later stated that the conspiracy theorists took his words out of context, because he didn't mean there was no plane, or that an actual missle was fired into the pentagon... he elaborated and said it was so fast that all he saw/heard was the explosion and that the plane was going at the speed like a missle.

 

 

ok, so have you done any backgroudn checks into the experts?

seriously, i'm not ridiculing you or trying to start an argument.

some of these experts are govt employees.

 

 

as for the reporter claiming "it was like a missile" i remember that.

honestly, i think it was a globalhawk. 12-16 foot hole. no debris on the outside.

numerous reports of a black underbelly.

 

but the pentagon is their cherry. it's so hard to touch because we ahven't seen the

other tapes from the many many cameras outside of it.

 

 

also strange that thei rmissile defnese systme shut down that day.

[Obvious]

 

here's from the 2004 tape in which he admits to the 9/11 attacks.

 

oh, and of course you can't forget zacarias mousoaii ADMITTING to al qaeda's involvement in the 9/11 attacks (although he did not partake directly, as a member of alqaeda and an associate of the 9/11 hijackers, he was aware of al qaeda and bin laden's role). of course, let's just write him off as being crazy and/or a government agent working for the cia.

[Smart]

bin laden was chubby then skinny.

 

so was Oprah but I don't doubt that it was her.

[Kisama]

 

here's from the 2004 tape in which he admits to the 9/11 attacks.

 

oh, and of course you can't forget zacarias mousoaii ADMITTING to al qaeda's involvement in the 9/11 attacks (although he did not partake directly, as a member of alqaeda and an associate of the 9/11 hijackers, he was aware of al qaeda and bin laden's role). of course, let's just write him off as being crazy and/or a government agent working for the cia.

 

 

 

he (mousoaii) was basically sent through the system with no damning evidence.

he was also, in my humble opinion, a patsy. too retarded and crazy to do much of anything.

a bumbling fool.

[Kisama]

so was Oprah but I don't doubt that it was her.

 

dark, then light

[Obvious]

people don't look the same in every video. stress, fatigue, mood, lighting, grooming and camera quality all effect ones appearance. he doesn't look "chubby" in that video to me, so i guess "chubby" is subjective. also, the other man in the video was identified, a saudi, i forget his name... rides in a wheelchair... and it was confirmed he knew bin laden. bin laden looked light and skinny and weak in the videos after the u.s. invaded afghanistan. in videos in the years before he looked more "nourished" and darker. that doesn't mean one is bin laden and the other isn't. i look pictures of me from a few months ago and i look a little different than pictures taken recently.

[Dawood]

so did you guys figure everything out yet? no?

 

oh well.

 

let me know when it's been pegged. i'll be out back working on my perpetual motion machine.

 

 

you mean this?

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/alex-jones/2006-08-18-colmes-aj.mp3

 

don't know if this has been posted before, it covers alot of ground tho.

[--->]

 

 

 

WTF? three different Osamas???

 

 

.

[Internerd]

Saddam had multiple look-a-like's that worked for him, if I were Osama, so would I

[lord_casek]

Saddam had multiple look-a-like's that worked for him, if I were Osama, so would I

 

do you believe that? honestly?

[Internerd]

Sure. I wouldn't have a clue if it was true or not, but I would believe that it's possible.

[lord_casek]

anything is possible

[Internerd]

yeah, ok whatever.

[lord_casek]

it's a joke. haha. funny.

 

 

back to the serious stuff.

 

Attorney General: Terrorists are in our neighborhoods

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Attorney_General_Terrorists_are_in_our_0816.html

[Sars.Saw.Chicago]

im never in here, and i dont know if someone has already posted it in here but theres a great online video you can watch

 

http://www.loosechange911.com

 

its really good

[Larry Pubes]

trust that's been posted alot and trust it's unbelievably weak.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Casek, you skipped over this part of maddox's article.

 

"like the fact that steel melts at 1525° C, and although jet fuel burns only at 825° C, it doesn't have to burn hot enough to melt to cause the buildings to collapse, since steel loses 50% of its strength at 648 ° C"

 

Any response?

[lord_casek]

i believe those girders were around 6 feet thick (squared) or more. the central support girder was absolutely huge. there wasn't alot of jet fuel in those two planes to begin with a ton also burned up on impact (the large fireballs).

 

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

 

"Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York. "

 

 

jet fuel is kerosene. it burns at 550 (or is it 495?) celsius.

 

 

"

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.

 

It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.

 

It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.

 

It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).

 

And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).

 

Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:

 

(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O

 

(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O

 

(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O

 

Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.

 

Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame."

 

 

Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).

 

"Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers."

[Stereotype V.0002]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

 

The maximum burning temperature of the jet fuel version of kerosene is 980 °C, at least according to the link, and burns lower after the initial explosion. Which is more than enough to weaken the steal. Also I think the tank amount is besides the point as long as the fuel was concentrated on a certain portion of the supports.

 

Have you read this? http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

[lord_casek]

the popular mechanics article was written by the director of homeland securitys

nephew or cousin...chertoff. i do not believe that one bit.

 

 

 

The collapse of the WTC

 

by Kevin Ryan

Underwriters Laboratories

Thursday, Nov 11, 2004

 

The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.

 

Dr. Gayle,

 

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

 

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

 

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel…burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown’s theory."

 

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

 

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse." The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

 

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to "soften and buckle." (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C." To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

 

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

 

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and “chatter”.

 

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

 

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html 2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187 3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf 4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php 5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11) 6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

 

Kevin Ryan

 

Site Manager Environmental Health Laboratories A Division of Underwriters Laboratories

[Stereotype V.0002]

Assuming that's even true, all the points in that article are invalidated and shouldn't be read? And can you prove that he is actually his cousin, other than the prison planet article which basically says "we called his mom." Forget that article, how about any of the papers from various academics, the one from a fire investigator in the FDNY?

[lord_casek]

well, mr. ryan cites the NIST's own reports, a CRC handbook, and a metal forging organization.

 

 

i can't prove it off hand. if you email mr. chertoff (pop mechanics) and ask him, i'm sure he'll tell you. no harm in it. i would do it, but you wouldn't believe me if i posted an email.

 

 

and yes, it's a damn good reason to discount that whole article in popular mechanics.

[Stereotype V.0002]

"if you email mr. chertoff (pop mechanics) and ask him, i'm sure he'll tell you."

 

He would tell me that he is related to Michael Chertoff? Because that not so convincing prison planet article said he denied it, but they got confirmation from his mother..? And even if he has valid points in that article you would just automatically ignore them?

 

The reason I asked if you read any of the many papers and articles (from people actually qualified, not professors in different fields like Prof. Jones) who disagree with the conspiracies is I am interested if you check out any opposing viewpoints, or just ignore them all and write it off as part of the government plot or whatnot.

[lord_casek]

i do check out opposing viewpoints. there are many points that are valid from both sides.

the thing is, and it's a big thing, is that i do not (nor does anyone else) have to be an expert to have doubts.

 

check this list out.

 

1. Virginia Deane Abernethy, Ph.D., anthropologist, author, Population Politics

2. Ed Asner, actor, activist

3. Marshall Auerback, international portfolio strategist for David W. Tice & Associates, Inc.

4. Catherine Austin Fitts, Asst. Secretary of Housing in the first Bush administration

5. Keidi Obi Awadu, aka The Conscious Rasta, talk show host, LIBRadio

6. Michael Badnarik, Libertarian candidate for President

7. Byron Belitsos, publisher, Origin Press, author Planetary Democracy

8. Philip J. Berg, Esquire, former deputy attorney general, Pennsylvania

9. Medea Benjamin, activist, author, co-founder, Global Exchange and Code Pink

10. Dennis Bernstein, investigative reporter, radio host of KPFA's Flashpoints

11. Steve Bhaerman aka Swami Beyondananda, author, political comedian

12. Brad Blanton, Ph.D., psychotherapist, author, Radical Honesty

13. Saniel Bonder, spiritual teacher and author, Great Relief

14. Dr. Robert Bowman, USAF Lt. Col. (Rtd.), founder, Institute for Space and Security Studies

15. John Buchanan, author, candidate for the Republican Party Presidential nomination, 2004

16. Gray Brechin, Ph.D., author, environmental historian, professor, UC Berkeley

17. Fred Burks, presidential interpreter for Bush, Clinton, Cheney, and Gore

18. Norma Carr-Rufino, Ph.D., author, professor of management, San Francisco State University

19. Angana Chatterji, Ph.D., scholar-activist and professor of anthropology

20. Paul Cienfuegos, co-founder, Democracy Unlimited of Humboldt County

21. David Cobb, attorney, national presidential candidate, US Green Party

22. John Cobb, Ph.D., theologian, co-author, For the Common Good

23. Ernest Callenbach, founder/editor, Film Quarterly, author, Ecotopia

24. Kevin Danaher, Ph.D., author, speaker, co-founder, Global Exchange

25. Stephen Dinan, author, Radical Spirit

26. Bill Doyle, advocate for 9/11 families, father of Joseph Doyle, Cantor Fitzgerald employee

27. Ronnie Dugger, journalist/author, co-founder, Alliance for Democracy

28. Rachel Ehrenfeld, Ph.D., Director, American Center for Democracy, author, Funding Evil

29. Daniel Ellsberg, author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers

30. Jodie Evans, president, Code Pink

31. Richard Falk, Professor Emeritus of International Law, Princeton University

32. Michael Franti, musician, filmmaker, human rights worker

33. Jim Garrison, Ph.D., president, State of the World Forum, author, America as Empire

34. Bruce Gagnon, Chair, Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space

35. Ric Giardina, author, consultant, speaker, former Director of Trademarks and Brands for Intel

36. John Gray, Ph.D., #1 bestselling author, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus

37. Stan Goff, 25-year Army Special Ops veteran, author, Full Spectrum Disorder

38. Melvin Goodman, senior fellow, Center for International Policy, author, former Senior Analyst, CIA, professor, National War College

39. Morton Goulder, Deputy Secretary for Intelligence and Warning under Nixon, Ford, and Carter

40. David Ray Griffin, Ph.D., theologian, author, New Pearl Harbor

41. Doris "Granny D" Haddock, campaign finance crusader, NH Democratic candidate for Senate

42. Thom Hartmann, radio host; author, Unequal Protection

43. Richie Havens, singer, songwriter, performer, artist

44. Paul Hawken, bestselling author, environmentalist, entrepreneur, founder of Smith & Hawken

45. Randy Hayes, founder, Rainforest Action Network, US National Director, Direction Conservation

46. Richard Heinberg, author, The Party's Over, core faculty, New College of California

47. Van Jones, executive director, Ella Baker Center for Human Rights

48. Rob Kall, editor, OpEdNews.com, president, Futurehealth, Inc.

49. Georgia Kelly, executive director, Praxis Peace Institute

50. Sean Kelly, Ph.D., author, professor of philosophy and religion, CA Institute of Integral Studies

51. John Joseph Kennedy, Democratic Write-in Presidential Candidate for 2004

52. Mimi Kennedy, actress, Dharma and Greg, progressive activist

53. Faiz Khan, M.D., Triage Emergency Physician on 9/11, Assistant Imam

54. David Korten, author, When Corporations Rule the World

55. France Moore Lappé, author, Diet for a Small Planet; founder, Small Planet Institute

56. Scott M. Legere, 25 year radio broadcaster as Scott Ledger, Tampa FL

57. Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor, TIKKUN Magazine, author, Healing Israel/Palestine

58. Michael Levine, bestselling author of Deep Cover, journalist, 25-year veteran of the DEA

59. Joanna Macy, Ph.D., eco-philosopher, author

60. Enver Masud, founder, The Wisdom Fund, author, The Truth About Islam

61. John McCarthy, former Special Forces Captain, president, Veterans Equal Rights Protection Advocacy

62. Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst, co-founder, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

63. Cynthia McKinney, five-term Congresswoman from Georgia

64. Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., author, professor, co-founder, Green Earth Foundation

65. Mark Crispin Miller, media critic, author, professor, New York University

66. Joseph W. Montaperto, New York City Fire Department

67. Leuren Moret, geoscientist, radiation specialist, environmental commissioner

68. Ralph Nader, Independent candidate for President

69. Craig Neal, author, co-founder, The Heartland Institute, former publisher, Utne Reader

70. Jeff Norman, executive director, Tour of Duty

71. Jenna Orkin, Esquire, World Trade Center Environmental Organization

72. Kelly Patricia O'Meara, investigative journalist, public relations

73. Michael Parenti, Ph.D., author, Superpatriotism and The Terrorism Trap

74. Edward L. Peck, former US Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq, former Deputy Director to the White House Task Force on Terrorism

75. Peter Phillips, Ph.D., professor, Sonoma State University, director, Project Censored

76. Henri Poole, Internet pioneer, board member, Free Software Foundation

77. Robert Rabbin, author, speaker, creator of TruthForPresident.org

78. Paul H. Ray, Ph.D., sociologist, author, The Cultural Creatives

79. John Renesch, business futurist, author, Getting to the Better Future

80. John Rensenbrink, professor emeritus, Bowdoin College, co-founder, US Green Party

81. John Robbins, author, founder, EarthSave International

82. William Rodriguez, 9/11 rescue effort hero, founder, Hispanic Victims Group

83. Neal Rogin, Emmy-award winning writer, performer, social observer

84. Allen Roland, Ph.D., psychotherapist, published author and peace activist

85. Rosemary Radford Ruether, professor of feminist theology, Graduate Theological Union

86. Michael Ruppert, publisher/editor, From The Wilderness, author, Crossing the Rubicon

87. Chris Sanders, founder, Sanders Research Associates

88. Karl W. B. Schwarz, President, CEO, Patmos Nanotechnologies, LLC

89. Peter Dale Scott, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, author, Drugs, Oil, and War

90. Firefighter Kevin Shea, FDNY Hazmat Operations

91. Michelle Shocked, singer/songwriter, activist

92. Indira Singh, risk management and computer systems consultant

93. J. Michael Springmann, attorney, former Foreign Service Officer, US Department of State

94. Douglas Sturm, Ph.D., university professor emeritus, Bucknell University

95. Marjorie Hewit Suchocki, Ph.D., theologian, author

96. Chuck Turner, Boston City Council

97. James W. Walter Jr., venture investor, philanthropist, founder of Walden Three

98. Dan Whaley, E-commerce pioneer, founder of GetThere.com, acquired for $750M

99. Burns H. Weston, J.S.D., Professor of Law Emeritus, Director, Center for Human Rights, U-Iowa

100. Howard Zinn, professor, historian, author, A People’s History of the United States

 

 

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement

 

further down you'll find victims family members.

[Larry Pubes]

yo, where the hell is david muthafuckin' icke on that list yo?!

[lord_casek]

haha. a sports reporter turned lizard alien hybrid illuminati detective?

hardly.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Casek, you skipped over this part of maddox's article.

 

"like the fact that steel melts at 1525° C, and although jet fuel burns only at 825° C, it doesn't have to burn hot enough to melt to cause the buildings to collapse, since steel loses 50% of its strength at 648 ° C"

 

Any response?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3D2myMbQjQ

 

how do you explain this, more jet fuel?

 

wake the fuck up already, jesus.

[Larry Pubes]

hey, if you want to exchange pm's telling him how great he is, fine, but don't call him jesus.

[Stereotype V.0002]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3D2myMbQjQ

 

how do you explain this, more jet fuel?

 

wake the fuck up already, jesus.

 

The guy goes "this is probably 1500 degrees", which I doubt because his face wasn't melting off. You've never said "oh man those spicey bean burritos made me shit for 9 hours" when it was closer to 45 minutes? All that clip really shows is that not surprisingly fire persisted closed off under the rubble for a long time after the buildings collapsed.

 

Casek, how does a statement that basically says they want a more in depth investigation prove they believe the US government was behind it? It seems more think the "government had foreknowledge" than the men in black set up c4 everywhere or trained the hi jackers, atleast according to that site. 40 is an extremely low number considering nearly 3,000 people were killed and they all had atleast a dozen family members.