Fallujah Massacre

[Krakatau]

What the fuck are we supposed to do?

We chased them all to Fallujah, let everyone in the city know we were about to fuck it up, and then held true to our word.

 

I bet you'd support NAMBLA just to back the under dog, huh?

[SF1]

Wow you're an idiot.

[knuckle_game]

As for the arquement as to whether or not "innocents" and regular folks should have left thier city, I'd say it's probably not as simple as some of you want to think.

For the week or 2 before the assault on falluja, the US military sealed off the entire area, including of course, the few routes one could take to escape the city. This was done not only to keep out more insurgents, but to also crerry-pick any one leaving they might want to arrest.

That's actually a common tactic that the pigs use at demonstrations. They surround a group, demand that people disperse, then arrest the half or so people who listen to them, and them swoop down on the remainding half.

Basicly anyone who was in falluja was damned if they do and damned if they didn't.

 

There's also the fact that maybe the residents of falluja didn't want to surrender thier city. would yall surrender your cities if the Iraqi army was over here doing this type of shit to us?

[Krakatau]

Originally posted by knuckle_game@Nov 13 2005, 02:42 PM

As for the arquement as to whether or not "innocents" and regular folks should have left thier city, I'd say it's probably not as simple as some of you want to think.

For the week or 2 before the assault on falluja, the US military sealed off the entire area, including of course, the few routes one could take to escape the city. This was done not only to keep out more insurgents, but to also crerry-pick any one leaving they might want to arrest.

That's actually a common tactic that the pigs use at demonstrations. They surround a group, demand that people disperse, then arrest the half or so people who listen to them, and them swoop down on the remainding half.

Basicly anyone who was in falluja was damned if they do and damned if they didn't.

 

There's also the fact that maybe the residents of falluja didn't want to surrender thier city. would yall surrender your cities if the Iraqi army was over here doing this type of shit to us?

Quoted post

Fuckin 'aye I would. I'd move to British Columbia and go barefoot hiking.

Okay, so the marines sealed off the perimeter and monitored traffic in and out of the city. So... the innocent civilians we are all worried for would have had to pass through entry/exit points, and could not leave because of that? I'll wait in a line to not get wasted with white phosphorous, too. I would have survived Fallujah in either scenario. Kick ass.

[POIESIS]

i'm not really catchin' the arguments in here...

there's a presupposition that somehow the US marines

had some sort of rights here and that they are justified

in using extreme prejudice.

if i lived in falluj, i would have left as well, but i'm not

an iraqi with all the context and history that goes along with

being one.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by KaBar2+Nov 12 2005, 07:49 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaBar2 - Nov 12 2005, 07:49 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Nov 12 2005, 05:37 AM

It's funny when that we can sit here from the comfort of our own homes in front of our little pc desks with a cold drink at our sides and weild our accusing fingers at situations we are as far removed from as Santa Claus is from Australia and say what we would or wouldn't do. The fact is , we have no idea what these people are going through in Iraq. These are peoples homes, lives, children living normal lives until one day, hey, Abdullah, look at what the the heat seeking missles did to our school.

Quoted post

 

 

.

 

I would have gotten my family out of Fallujah even if I had to walk twenty miles waving a white flag. Those that stayed suffered terribly from existing in the same impact area as the "insurgents." Hundreds of thousands of people evacuated. When the battle was over, they returned to a city that was severely damaged. The crazy thing is that the Marines then withdrew from the city, and it filled up with insurgents again. Man, these are people who just don't understand. "If you let insurgents move into your city, the Marines will come back and blow their asses all to shit AGAIN." From the Marine Corps point of view, Fallujah was a "target-rich environment." ("Oooh-rah, get some.") The most difficult part is finding them. Once you've got them located, servicing the target isn't all that difficult. Call in artillery, or helicopter gunships, or fixed wing air support. Boom boom boom. "Next!"

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

Did you watch that video Kabar? did you see the guys waving white flags getting shot at and killed? I can't beleive we are having this conversation now in November of 2005 after all of what has happened and surfaced. The reality is that Americans are too spineless and pacified to do anything about it. And the ones who actually beleive the propaganda this govt. is feeding you must have just grown accustomed to eating shit ! I'm not a person who uses foul language, but , wtf? WAKE UP!! Did you see the burnt bodies? Did you watch the video Stereotype? This is absolutely sickening , and our tax dollars pay for it . What could be better? Just keep telling yourselves that the Iraqi people will be better off in the long run because Saddam is gone, well, Tell that to the 200,000+ families this massacre has destroyed.(and that number is too low actually) Saddam and his great grandchildren will have died long before this mess is cleaned up. And Allah knows best.

[Krakatau]

Originally posted by Dawood+Nov 13 2005, 10:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Nov 13 2005, 10:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by KaBar2@Nov 12 2005, 07:49 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Nov 12 2005, 05:37 AM

It's funny when that we can sit here from the comfort of our own homes in front of our little pc desks with a cold drink at our sides and weild our accusing fingers at situations we are as far removed from as Santa Claus is from Australia and say what we would or wouldn't do. The fact is , we have no idea what these people are going through in Iraq. These are peoples homes, lives, children living normal lives until one day, hey, Abdullah, look at what the the heat seeking missles did to our school.

Quoted post

 

 

.

 

I would have gotten my family out of Fallujah even if I had to walk twenty miles waving a white flag. Those that stayed suffered terribly from existing in the same impact area as the "insurgents." Hundreds of thousands of people evacuated. When the battle was over, they returned to a city that was severely damaged. The crazy thing is that the Marines then withdrew from the city, and it filled up with insurgents again. Man, these are people who just don't understand. "If you let insurgents move into your city, the Marines will come back and blow their asses all to shit AGAIN." From the Marine Corps point of view, Fallujah was a "target-rich environment." ("Oooh-rah, get some.") The most difficult part is finding them. Once you've got them located, servicing the target isn't all that difficult. Call in artillery, or helicopter gunships, or fixed wing air support. Boom boom boom. "Next!"

Quoted post

 

 

Did you watch that video Kabar? did you see the guys waving white flags getting shot at and killed? I can't beleive we are having this conversation now in November of 2005 after all of what has happened and surfaced. The reality is that Americans are too spineless and pacified to do anything about it. And the ones who actually beleive the propaganda this govt. is feeding you must have just grown accustomed to eating shit ! I'm not a person who uses foul language, but , wtf? WAKE UP!! Did you see the burnt bodies? Did you watch the video Stereotype? This is absolutely sickening , and our tax dollars pay for it . What could be better? Just keep telling yourselves that the Iraqi people will be better off in the long run because Saddam is gone, well, Tell that to the 200,000+ families this massacre has destroyed.(and that number is too low actually) Saddam and his great grandchildren will have died long before this mess is cleaned up. And Allah knows best.

Quoted post

[/b]

How quickly can you suspend disbelief when what you are viewing confirms a back burner suspicion? Just because they are telling you what you want to think doesn't mean they aren't liars, Dawood.

[Dawood]

So what you want me to beleive is that all of what I see with my own eyes in that video are just lies? Ok, then Osama Ibn Laden is really a great guy too. Just a freedom fighter who catches a bad rap from the lying demon media. Don't beleive the 911 hype bro. That whole trade towers thing was just a wag the dog, didn't even happen. All lies. Just an Illusion. Theatrics....No planes, No buildings, No Whiskey Pete, No Fried Bodies, No nothing

 

Ok, guys lets all pack it up and go home, the gig is up...

 

THREAD CLOSED

[Edika]

i think theres an important fact that hasnt been discussed here:napalm, chemical weapons and phosphorus bombs are illegals. Its in the Geneva convention.

 

Yes killing innocent is bad, but doing it with illegal weapons is making it worst i think.

[Krakatau]

Originally posted by Dawood@Nov 13 2005, 11:33 PM

So what you want me to beleive is that all of what I see with my own eyes in that video are just lies? Ok, then Osama Ibn Laden is really a great guy too. Just a freedom fighter who catches a bad rap from the lying demon media. Don't beleive the 911 hype bro. That whole trade towers thing was just a wag the dog, didn't even happen. All lies. Just an Illusion. Theatrics....No planes, No buildings, No Whiskey Pete, No Fried Bodies, No nothing

 

Ok, guys lets all pack it up and go home, the gig is up...

 

THREAD CLOSED

Quoted post

No, but you might take into consideration the fact that you found the video on 12oz, that (as far as I know) this shit hasn't been mentioned in the mainstream media, and that anyone with a computer, camera and a few spare hours could have pulled that video out of their ass. Basically I am telling you to question everything, whether or not it falls in line with your view of the world.

 

....And pretty much everything after your first sentence was added to make it seem like you had a lot to say.......?

 

 

Edi- I think that isn't being discussed for reasons similair to those that keep us from debating what color the sky is. Prima facie.

[POIESIS]

that important fact isn't that important given the context really.

i suggest you read hugo grotius's 'on the rules of war and peace'. without it there would be no geneva conventions, no nuremberg, no ICC, no treaty of westphalia..no such thing as war crimes or crimes against humanity for that matter.

the fact or not that illegal weaponry has been used is preceded by the fact that the conduct in the first place was illegal. how one is supposed to proceed

past this in theory i don't know, but so far it's been a real par-tay.

just-war theory...what a wacky ass concept.

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by Krakatau@Nov 13 2005, 02:09 PM

I bet you'd support NAMBLA just to back the under dog, huh?

Quoted post

 

BURN!!!

To clarify, although I do think it is despicable to represent a group devoted to raping little kids because of an ideal, the part I had a problem with wasn't that. I am a bit more disgusted that the ACLU is fighting to keep the manual NAMBLA hands out to its members that describes when to molest children, techniques of luring them into your home, and how to dispose of the bodies...all under the banner of free speech. Im sure you feel that NAMBLA has every right to keep that type of information in circulation, because it is their right as American citizens to molest and kill our children. But only in an idealistic way, of course. Good for you.

 

"Did you watch the video Stereotype? "

Yes, I did. PROPAGANDA. One sided, with an obvious agenda. There were a shitload of journalists embedded with the Marines during the buildup and assualt on Falljuah. Writers and correspondents from various news outlets were there. They weren't in the "rear with the gear" either, a writer for the New York times pulled a Marine behind a wall after he was fatally shot in the head. So if the Marines were on a crazy civilian-killing fuck fest, I have an inkling it might have been in the papers.

 

SF- Thanks for the consideration. I write King BlAzE 1er(usually with a crown on top, to signify my kingliness) and I reside in Tripoli, Libya. Its where I "tag up." Maybe you we can link up and hit the streets dawg? PM me your phone number or adress, we can be bestest friends.

[SF1]

Nigga you aint even a graffiti writer your just some herb that comes on here to spew garbage. You wanna talk about propaganda??? :haha: That's all you spew on here! You go out of your way to dig up dirt on the ACLU for doing their job to protect free speech, why don't you mention the other groups they defend? Your a clown kid. I don't know what I was thinking asking you what you write I was drunk and forgot you're just some clown. It would be nice to be able to find you though. I know this is just the internet and all but the shit you spew makes me wanna kick your teeth in just for breathing.You should seriously consider hanging yourself.

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by SF1@Nov 14 2005, 08:17 PM

Nigga you aint even a graffiti writer your just some herb that comes on here to spew garbage. You wanna talk about propaganda??? :haha: That's all you spew on here! You go out of your way to dig up dirt on the ACLU for doing their job to protect free speech, why don't you mention the other groups they defend? Your a clown kid. I don't know what I was thinking asking you what you write I was drunk and forgot you're just some clown. It would be nice to be able to find you though. I know this is just the internet and all but the shit you spew makes me wanna kick your teeth in just for breathing.You should seriously consider hanging yourself.

Quoted post

 

Are you this angry because I contested a widely accepted viewpoint? Do you honestly believe in the right for NAMBLA to produce the literature it does? Or are you a little pissy because I didn't answer your love letter in privacy? Shit, I'm sorry porkchop... it will never happen again.

 

:love2: :love2: :love2:

[Stereotype V.001]

SEACREST - OUT!!

[John Birch]

Although I am disgusted by faggotry, buggery and peodphilia (although I dig hot lesbos), I still think its good the ACLU defends the NAMBLA. Laws and customs are all relative. Greek culture encoureaged man/boy love (just typing that makes me shiver). Our culture doesn't. If they want to publish that shit, let them.

 

Its not the facts of the example, but the principle of it. To say a NAMBLA guide shouldn't be published on legal or moral grounds, then.. how about hacker sites, 12oz? Military manuals etc etc??? Those all encourage immoral and/or illegal activities yet I see no one complaining.

 

It is the most deplorable of free speech that needs the most protection. That is the essence of America and the 1st Admendment...

[POIESIS]

if you're in favour of freedom of speech, you're in favour of it precisely

because there are opinions and viewpoints you find despicable,

otherwise you're not in favour of it.

[SF1]

True. But I'd still enjoy pummeling this faggot though.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by POIESIS@Nov 15 2005, 03:46 AM

if you're in favour of freedom of speech, you're in favour of it precisely

because there are opinions and viewpoints you find despicable,

otherwise you're not in favour of it.

Quoted post

 

 

I don't see anything wrong with a little bit of censorship. When You were a kid and you said something out of line, Your dad most likely let you know you better shut up or catch a bad one,

 

Sometimes people just need to shut up, seriously. 99.9% of the problems people cause for themselves come from their mouths.

 

I can't stand pc (politically correctness) talk straight.

[POIESIS]

it's pretty basic. either you're for it, or you're not.

[SF1]

I'm all for freedom period. I think Steriotype should have every legal right to talk his little fag shit, pushing peoples buttons in his pathetic attempt to get attention. But if I ever did run into him in real life I'd still stomp his face in anyway. :biglaugh:

[POIESIS]

i suggest you ignore him, and spare us all the soap opera love affair the 2 of you can't seem to get enough of. thanks.

[John Birch]

yeah so this thread started like a week ago...so I finally saw it covered on bbc world news, which plays at midnight on my local pbs channel... how long before cbs, abc, nbc, fox????

 

 

willy pete nigga!!!!

[casekonly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4441902.stm

[Krakatau]

Yeah, I heard this on NPR on the way to work this morning and expected to see SF and Dawood having a victory dance in here on account of the story being true.

 

So do I eat my words here, or what?

[master bait]

Ok it seems I'm a bit late w/this... maybe fallujah is out of fashion. whatever. I don't care... my heart is full of xmas spirit and hope for the world peace !!! 1

But damn, that video showed us some nasty shit! some of those bodies were like straight from a horror flick! Gross!

Fallujah reminded me of what I've read about the battles in Grozny in early and mid 1990's. Before christmas in 1992 (I think) the russians warned the citizens and asked them to leave before this certain date I've happened to forget. Of course, they bombed the living fuck out of the city, thousands of civilians died etc etc. Yeah maybe Fallujah wasn't as brutal as Grozny. Go figure. Besides, in caucasus the civilians had snow and minus 20 degrees Celsius, there weren't many places you could go in the winter. In fallujah it was what, april? they could easily go to the desert for a while.

Live in a tent, eat a cactus for dinner.

 

 

But seriously. As much as I'd like to agree with the video, I just can't get over the fact that it's terribly done and in my book a textbook example of lousy journalism. You can't have a script if you're about to make a documentary, and these guys obviously had one.

The first thing that caught my eye was the way the narrator was dubbing all these questions all the time as if it was himself asking. No good. I would like to hear the original questions and if it's not in english, with subtitles. No dubbing.

Also the part with the people waving a white flag: Dunno about you but at least I couldn't SEE them being fired at, or getting shot dead. I HEAR gunshots (looks like they hear them too, and get jumpy) but the only thing that tells me they're being shot at/dead is the narrator. Then they show me a still photograph of a dead civilian.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand animations, I can connect the millisecond frames in my mind but in this case I just saw two separate things and the englishman who tells me what to think doesn't convince me.

I'm not saying that the message of the documentary is bullshit, I'm saying that this video isn't helping much, in my eyes it's making things worse for their cause. it's poor journalism and no one will hear what they're saying.

Here are the nasty ass flicks that were shown in the video. DON'T CLICK if you're happy at the moment:

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html

 

Anyway, about "wooly-pete" aka. "whisky pee" aka. white phosphorus: As far as I know, it's not "illegal" by international standards. In the video it seems they let people think it's a forbidden chemical weapon. I'm not sure, but I think it's not. Also MK77, the "napalmish" stuff doesn't have much resemblance to white phosphorus. Maybe some military gurus want to corretct me here, but WP is often used in small portions in grenades and ammunition. It's usually used against non-living stuff: to lit up or mark a spot or an area, or to ignite napalm etc. WP burns when it contacts with air. I'm sure it's also true what the veteran said in the video about the clouds and effects on humans.

 

I haven't seen or heard white phosphorus being used this way before. The video footage where they drop that shit all over the city was the part that disturbed me the most. they certainly didn't have a target at all. You can see the fucking smoke in huge clouds. Yeah, maybe that's good for the ground troops' morale. Maybe you can kill a few insurgents like that, too. maybe like this, you're not destroying as many buildings and it's not like you're "bombing" as much as you would with bombs that have blast radius and shrapnel effect.

This way you just burn people alive, not knowing if they're wemmin or children. Usually the guerrilla troops dig in deeper, though. They know what's coming at them, and they've got the guns to occupy the real bomb shelters. What you see there is practically carpet bombing without the "old school" bombs. And this should also be enough to make sure that any person making official announcements concerning "the rules of engagement", presicion bombing and modern, humane warfare is full of shit. you can add this up to the list of other bullshit: no torturing prisoners, no weppins of mass desruction...etc.

and if any douchebag tells me it would be actually possible to move an entire civilian population out of a city in a few weeks, you're off your fucking mind. It's a ridiculous to imagine anything like this could ever happen without a huge, organized help operation. So cut the fucking bullshit, please. You're not even convincing yourselves.

 

I actually feel like an ass for even typing this, but in case you didn't think about it, and since I really didn't get the picture that any of you even gave it a thought, let me list a few things here:

 

THING #1. Families with children, old relatives, pregnant wives can't move that fast even if they wanted to. Peeps probably don't want to leave their relatives behind. I could imagine that in a country like Iraq families are huge and live all around the city. that's speculation allright, but it's not safe to leave your house and that's a fact. So you'd rather just dig in for cover, survive the day and hope the good guys bomb the neighbor's house. It's just as big risk to go to the city and maybe get shot, bombed, arrested, kidnapped, robbed whatever. there is no rule.

 

THING #2. No place to go. You have no food, no shelter, no water in the desert. Red Cross and buddies would probably have a few tents here and there, with a few western helpers who like to get kidnapped and decapitated infront of a camcorder, but other than that, replacing a population of a city: piece of cake. just wear protective eyewear when the sandstorm comes.

Also, last time I checked the red cross didn't really do much in iraq. maybe because of the kidnappings. correct my biased ass if I'm wrong

 

THING #3. The insurgents like to have the civilians. Civilians are soft and comfy. The terrorists blend in when there's civilians around. If you bomb and there's civilians the insurgents can take flicks of roasted babies and make more friends all around the world. If it was just the U.S. Troops vs. the baddies it would be fair and simple. THEN you'd show 'em!!!

But this is the new age and shit is very much unfair when it comes to urban guerrilla warfare. In a nutshell If you try to leave with your family, you're obeying the american faschist rules or whatever, and shall face the wrath of god.

 

THINGS #4 and the rest: You've got shit like roadblocks, checkpoints and patrolling troops all over the fucking place. how you gonna change Abdul's diapers and feed your grandma if there's a mile long queue to the checkpoint, you're a mile away from the nearest water supply and you don't know how long it will take in this queue which practically is a living terrorist bomb magnet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't really give a flying fuck about the iraqi civilians. Really I don't. I'm just slightly annoyed by all the shit people talk here. It seems like there's a strong division of 12oz troops ready to go fight for freedom. Anyone complaining about war is politically brainwashed by the liberal media. Well I'm not from the states and I don't give a flying fuck about what my political position is, or would be when you fit them in the standards of the current US political field. That shit fails to concern me in any way. All I know is that all media is biased, and I take nothing for granted.

If that stupid italian documentary showed archive material of a helicopter throwing flares into a fake town in the arizona desert, then I have spent many hours for nothing, typing this shit and have been officially biased by the liberal media. But I still wouldn't think everything is ok in Iraq.

 

Now for all the peeps who read my rants, here's a link to another long text. It's for everyone, but specially for all the warmongers here. I prefer you print it out and read it. It's text from a book, translated from russian to (occasionally bad) english by several different people. It's definately not political, nor liberal (honestly I don't even know what that means). It offers you a rather deranged viewpoint to the whole conflict, which I said has a slight resemblance to this iraq thing that's still going on. I think grozny is a bit more peaceful place nowdays. Anyway this should be interesting to all you military types like KaBar since it doesn't lack any grunt talk, weapon names and viewpoints of a ground troop. It can also make you happy you're an enlisted soldier, and not in the russian army.

 

ladies and gentlemen,

Attack To Downtown Grozny by Vyacheslav Mironov

[fuck muni]

one of my friends was in fallujah...first wave marine infantry...he told me about some pretty fucked up shit.....apparently lots of innocent kids and women were shot up by his company. his friend had his face blown off right next to him. and he had to stab some iraqi during a house search

[Stereotype V.001]

Hey master bait, are you a rusky?

[Stereotype V.001]

Oh, I think that video is 100% accurate, reliable, and unbiased. That link with the dead soldiers and ominous warning of the "pentagon" coming to kill people was pretty fucking awesome too. If you disagree with me, you are a warmonger.

 

fuck muni- What MOS was your buddy? Which unit was he with? Did they teach him how to mow down woman and children and shit in ninja deltaforce scout/sniper force recon school(this question is not serious)? Those can be answered without remotely revealing your friend's identity, I'm just a little bit leery of second hand stories about killing civies and knifing people in CQB(highly unlikely, even more so while clearing houses in Fallujah) people tell their friends who tell me, is all.

[yum]

thats some really impressive satire youve got goign there stereotype