Pistol Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Yes during Iraq we the US made mistakes. We also lost some US troops due to friendly fire. So mistakes aren't always on the enemies side. The other problem is that Saddam Hussein is such a piece of shit that he would hide missiles, chemical weapons in or near the hospitals or schools. Intelligence see's a building with lots of troop movement and large arms, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypse Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Originally posted by Smart They were an unidentified group on the ground that unexpectedly opened fire into the sky while a bunch of American warplanes, on a tactical strike mission, were in the air above... The number of bombs dropped is put at 5 total, there was an American 'scout' on the ground giving target info to the planes, he saw 4 bombs hit their targets and one fall into the uninhabited desert nearby... none of that was near the wedding... Do you think any of the individual soldiers are proud to have killed up a bunch of civilians? Do you think they are recieving praise from their peers? "Survivors said that members of a wedding party were firing weapons into the air in celebration at the time of the accident. " - cnn "Officials could not describe what the AC-130 crew may have been able to see during the operation. Sources said the crew had no way to determine if the people were civilians or enemy forces, and it is not clear if they were able to see any children." -cnn So the scout on the ground could see guns but he couldn't see the children? And smart you'd be suprised at the amount of praise a soldier gets for killing any, "sand nigger." Its not like the movies, when a soldier gets a moment of truth and sheds a tear. And at first the U.S. troops said they attacked because they saw anti aircraft artillery at the site, they then changed it saying that the anti aircraft was found ten miles from the wedding scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypse Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 And since when, if you cant tell whether or not your target is a civillian or a target, are you allowed to attack it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 when you are fired upon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypse Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 naw man, when someone shoots at you, you don't kill the first person you see. especially when they weren't even shooting at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Originally posted by Klypse So the scout on the ground could see guns but he couldn't see the children? children lack the eyecatching effect of muzzle flash... no matter what, at night a 2 foot flame is gonna draw the eye much more than a human... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Originally posted by Klypse naw man, when someone shoots at you, you don't kill the first person you see. especially when they weren't even shooting at you. it's WAR... these people were discharging weapons in a WARZONE!.. If ever there was a time for 'shoot first ask questions later'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 true hussein hides the shit in schools and places like that, but the US knows this. it doesnt matter if its wrong on saddams part, its wrong on the US part too. since hte US knows that he does shit like that, they should either investigate their target and make sure its all bad guys or weapons, or at least make sure schools out. something. saddam also walks around in big groups of women and children but you dont see the US blasting into those. and anyway, what right do we have to bomb someone for making weapons? the US thinks they might use them on us because they fuck with all these other countries too much and bully them around. so we dont even give them the right to defend themselves and keep bombing them if they need to steer the focus from another skandal back at home. thats what im talking about and then say, "they were in the no fly zone." haha. that shit makes me laugh (if i wasnt stoned itd merely piss me off.) if the US would stay out of other peoples business they wouldnt need to worry about countries attacking them for no reason. the US is the only country that does that nowadays quite frequently. once in a while a european country might join in for support or something. anyway, yeah, the US needs to check their shit closer. (i should have just said that last sentence huh?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Originally posted by Smart it's WAR... these people were discharging weapons in a WARZONE!.. If ever there was a time for 'shoot first ask questions later'... even if it was a war zone, it must have been populated because people dont go out to have a wedding in a war zone. i highly doubt they went to see the artilery because they didnt have any fireworks..... so, if the US knew it was a populated zone they shouldnt have fired into whether they were being fired at or not if it wasnt their target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Luv Roo Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 the arguments just went from dumb to dumber. Although I have to say I was entertained for most of my shift... I think I'll go over to E!Online and find out the latest fashion faux-pas now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 uh, no, if you fire in the general direction of American troops you will, indeed MUST, be considered an enemy... in fact, by firing upon US troops you automatically make yourself a target of opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 also smart, where are you getting your information from? american media? internet? just curious cus american media is full of shit and the internet can have a lot of false information. im just sayin cus if they said on the news that there were people firing guns up in there it doesnt mean there was. have you seen that movie with tommy lee jones and samuel l jackson where theyre marines inthe middle east and they fire into the protesters in front of an american embassy killing millions of civilians (women and children) and they cover it up by showing footage of them all having guns and firing at the soldiers and everything? that kinda shit happens all the time. im not saying there werent people firing up at the planes. i dont know afghani customs or anything so they very well could have been. just a possibility.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 A camp outside in the middle of nowhere with people shooting guns in the direction of US Military planes. your first thought Al Qaeda camp regrouping or wedding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 yeah youre right there smart. i probably shouldnt have typed those last two posts cus i think some pretty wierd shit when im stoned (by the way i wasnt tryin to say you didnt know your shit in that last one i was just sayin....) but whatever, im just on here cus im bored anyway, may as well make an ass of myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Originally posted by Pistol A camp outside in the middle of nowhere with people shooting guns in the direction of US Military planes. your first thought Al Qaeda camp regrouping or wedding? hahaha. to tell you the truth i didnt eve know it was a camp. fuck it...... the US is fucked up, get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 just FYI, I formulate my opinions based on a wide variety of domestic and international sources, both news agencies and personal friends Unfortunately, in the wedding incedent, there's only really one source for info right now, and that's the White House... however, the mistake has been admitted, the cause is being investigated and it doesn't stink of cover-up AT ALL, it appears that this is simply the tragedy of war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Wow! When I went to bed this thread was dead There have been so many posts and twists and turns since my last post, I'm not going to try and go back and pick up where I left off at 0400 or whatever time it was. It's turned out to be a great thread, though. One point I'd like to interject here about Amsterdam and indentured prostitution (indentured anything in the U.S. is illegal by the way, under laws prohibiting "involuntary servitude" i.e. slavery.) The first African slaves that arrived in the U.S. arrived in DUTCH ships in what, 1633? The Dutch were colonizing southern Africa in the late 1600's (Afrikaans--the 2nd language of South Africa, is Dutch-based.) They brought African slaves to various parts of the world, including the British colonies in North America, Cuba, Hispianola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic), British Guiana, Brazil and other parts of the world. So did slavers from a lot of other countries, including the British Colonies and the United States, way back in the 1830s. These slaves from the Dutch were probably war captives from one tribe raiding another for slaves to sell. Slavery was being practiced in Africa by a whole bunch of people before the Europeans got into the act, especially the North African Muslims, who considered anybody not a Muslim to be a barbarian one step above an animal. The black Africans were usually animists, which, to the Muslim eye, made them fair game. And of course, the Europeans practiced fuedalism, which is a form of involuntary servitude. I guess my point is that is we start discussing slavery, pretty quickly the finger of blame begins to move beyond the "you cruel white people in the American South." When I was in the Phillipines back in the late '70s, you could contract with a bar owner to lease a room (many bars there are the ground floor of a hotel) that came equipped with a teenaged girl. (I'd like to make it clear that I didn't DO this, I just observed it.) They cooked, they cleaned, they did whatever--including serving as a bed partner. Sort of like a super room service deal. I don't know what the girls got out of it, but the guys that did do this usually "tipped" them for sexual favors, although my understanding was that tipping was optional, but like any other service, if you want "service with a smile" you'd best tip the help. The girls were very young. The few guys I knew who contracted for this type of hotel room deliberately selected very young girls--maybe 14 or 15 years old. (Of course, the men were only 18 or 19 themselves.) It might not be slavery, but it was too close to it for comfort. Sort of a form of involuntary sexual servitude, I guess you'd call it. The men never paid the girls, always the bar owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 i was in thailand before i came over to australia and there are still TONS of brothels and escort services and freelance pimps and whatnot. i dont see it as slavery so much over there though. a lot of women there prostitute themselves for a couple years to have enough to go to school or live nicely and then quit. i dont think they see it as doing something bad necessarily. i still felt bad when i saw a 18 year old girl with a 65 year old man but theydidnt look unhappy at all. i think they tend to get treated really nice fromthese old white guys that comein from other countries because theyre so beautiful and sweet and these old dudes have never had a chance with anyone so hot. and they dont even cost too much. i mean, for how classy and pretty they are. its like 50 USD$ for a day and night with them or something. theyre all dressed like divas with cell phones and everything so it seems like they take care of themselves pretty well. some families do pimp out their daughters too to make some extra cash. its pretty fucked up but it just doesnt seem so much like the prostitution scene around the rest of the world. especially the ones that just hang in bars and try to hustle drinks. they seem to enjoy their job. but yeah, the dutch transported more slaves from africa than any other country (im pretty sure). theyve still got all the diamonds over there. i dont think the blame falls on anyone in particular that was involved in the slave trade. anyone involved (supporting it) was guilty. americans, dutch, brits, portugees, spanish, french, muslims.... whoever was dealing or owning a slave can share some of the responsibility (what responsibility though?). peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROSTY Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 USA is whats rong with the world today.... learn your history before you start pointing fingers. 3 of our treasured buildings get hit with airplanes and we freek out. have any of you ever heard of HIROSHIMA! perhaps NAGASAKI rings a bell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 what the fuck are "fingers"? by the way, weve been discussing how gay the US is for a long fuckin time. that arguments kinda over with. you can read page 3, 4, and 5 and youll see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 Frosty Frosty, I wrote a long reply to this, but I decided to delete it, and see if you really intend to stand by the above statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esai Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 Its fucked up how the US is all gung ho about making the taliban(and the world for that matter) pay for any anti US talk sp thoroughly as to bomb the shit out of various countries. yet they aint doin shit about homeboy who was responsible for the anthrax cuz he's white an a military guy. bunch of hypocritical bullshit, like the us refusing to obey u.n. human rights laws, and demanding immunity from these laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 Esai, this is a sovereign nation The U.S. is a sovereign nation. We are not under ANYBODY'S authority except our own. The UN has NO AUTHORITY OVER ANYTHING WE DO OR DON'T DO. Fuck the UN. We bomb and invade nations that offend us or harm our allies. Anybody that doesn't like it, FUCK THEM. Let them bring their weak ass shit on. Both the Taliban and Al Qaida are going to eventually all be killed and/or imprisoned, even if it takes twenty years, or more. People that want to support them are free to do so. Don't snivel if you wind up being interrogated by the Egyptian secret police with a fence charger on your nuts, though. There is no such thing as international law that has authority over the United States. Occasionally, our stupid ass Presidents sign treaties that supposedly limit our autonomy, but they are not worth the paper they are written on. If some stupid bitch country wants to try us on, they find out pretty quick that they made a big mistake. The only countries that we support are our allies. Anybody that is not our ally, FUCK 'EM. Don't imagine that the captured Al Qaida/Taliban prisoners are all safely in dog cages in Guantanamo Bay. Who is to say who got captured and who did not? Anybody the United States wants real information from gets quietly handed over to the Turks or the Egyptians. When they are done, they shoot him in the back of the head and bury the body out in the boondocks. We ain't playin' with these terrorists. They mess with us, they get the full treatment. Military tribunals? I'm laughing. The only trial they're likely to get is trial by cattle prod. Next on the hit list: Iraq. Get ready, Sadaam; you cocksucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Mang Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 funny you mention saddam . . . "Throughout the 1980s, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control shipped 14 different biological materials with military potential to Iraq. Fourteen. Oh yes, the '80s ... back when feathered hair and glam rock and Saddam was our best friend. Or is that now? I can't remember ... our enemies change almost as fast as our fashion statements these days. In '88, Saddam gassed about 5,000 Kurds on the northern border of Iraq. Men, women, and children. We didn't make any noise or rattle any sabers at the time. We didn't brand him a member of the 'axis of evil.' Nope, we actually increased weapons sales to Iraq AFTER the attack. In fact, if you want to get historical about it maybe we should look at exactly how Iran and Iraq got in the position they're currently in. Like, for instance, the fact that we armed both of them to the teeth. That in the '80s we were so happy to see them killing each other that we sold weapons to both sides." just some background info from guerrillanews.com (http://www.guerrillanews.com/war_on_terror...ism/doc312.html) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esai Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 Its funny Kabar, how many Us supporters talk so much abou the freedom of our soveriegnity and freedom yet when its another country its ridiculous. What if Afghanistan had chose to support its individual freedom as a nation and refused to help find Bin Laden? would that be okay, the US is harboring many crooks being wanted by other countries(including nazis). Its seems like irony when all these patriots cry freedom and democracy when the US' actions are involved, but then do a 180 when it involves anyone else. Not to mention how this govt is destroying our personal civil rights in the name of 911, wasnt the patriot act brought out a little too soon to not be suspicious?If the uS is truly in the role of providing democracy and treating all fairly then why would it be a problem to engage in a process which treats all countries with equality and fairness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 The US isn't really interested in just going around killing people, we want money. I'm pretty sure it comes part and parcel with the deal, if we liberate your shithole country, you owe us big on the trade policy. Kuwait fer instance. Sovereignty is an entirely differnt thing, that's when theres a government that everybody likes... We aren't gonna invade France anytime soon, unless I find that talking fish. Sovereignty isn't determined by the US, it's more like a UN thing, but even countries that aren't UN partners can be sovereign nations. Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you buy an island, you can declare yourself a sovereign nation through some beaureucratic method, you might have to pay dues, but... you could do anything you want on your island, legal dope, hookers, gambling, firing range w/ full auto weapons, you could buy a tank... ANYWAY, until you try to export your dope, hookers, or whatever, nobody can fuck with you, once you enter the world of international trade then you become subject to economic pressures, the REAL war. The war of economics never ends, casualties are less apparent but fully existant. Physical war is such a last resort, and so many of you seem to view the US as this bloodthirsty monster. Maybe because the only war most of you are old enough to remember cost us so few casualties... Hundreds of thousands of people alive today fully realize the human costs of sending family, or going, to some shitty paddy or seedy little town to die. That has never been a popular idea. It also seems that none of you are looking at this from that standpoint either, our cost of lives... it's about our ironfisted tactics in some jerkwater country, too weak and stupid to defend themselves... and then a miracle occurs and... presto change-o... terrorism seemss justifiable in your minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypse Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 Re: Esai, this is a sovereign nation Originally posted by KaBar The U.S. is a sovereign nation. We are not under ANYBODY'S authority except our own. The UN has NO AUTHORITY OVER ANYTHING WE DO OR DON'T DO. Fuck the UN. We bomb and invade nations that offend us or harm our allies. Anybody that doesn't like it, FUCK THEM. Let them bring their weak ass shit on. Both the Taliban and Al Qaida are going to eventually all be killed and/or imprisoned, even if it takes twenty years, or more. People that want to support them are free to do so. Don't snivel if you wind up being interrogated by the Egyptian secret police with a fence charger on your nuts, though. There is no such thing as international law that has authority over the United States. Occasionally, our stupid ass Presidents sign treaties that supposedly limit our autonomy, but they are not worth the paper they are written on. If some stupid bitch country wants to try us on, they find out pretty quick that they made a big mistake. The only countries that we support are our allies. Anybody that is not our ally, FUCK 'EM. Don't imagine that the captured Al Qaida/Taliban prisoners are all safely in dog cages in Guantanamo Bay. Who is to say who got captured and who did not? Anybody the United States wants real information from gets quietly handed over to the Turks or the Egyptians. When they are done, they shoot him in the back of the head and bury the body out in the boondocks. We ain't playin' with these terrorists. They mess with us, they get the full treatment. Military tribunals? I'm laughing. The only trial they're likely to get is trial by cattle prod. Next on the hit list: Iraq. Get ready, Sadaam; you cocksucker. Word he's right. No one can fuck with the U.S, even if we fuck with them. Yo if U.S. wants to fuck a country over for money, fuck them, we'll do it, because the U.S. has been OG for years. We'll take this niggas to a fucking holding cell and interrogate them. What the fuck are you talking about you senile bastard? You keep saying the same bullshit over and over again, and it makes no god damn sense. But, whatever your entitled to your opinion. As long as you can have pride in something, and the government pays for your viagra, your views won't change. Your a upper class doctor though, so I guess i can't be too harsh, your views are brought on by ignorance and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 Originally posted by Klypse Your a upper class doctor though, so I guess i can't be too harsh, your views are brought on by ignorance and money. I always wondered where KaBar go his views... huh, ignorance and money, who'da thunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 Yeah, that's my story all right, definately from the priveleged classes. I shouldn't tell the truth on here, too many of you guys aren't ready for it. And I was like that when I was a kid too, so I'm not blaming you, and I'm really not surprised. What keeps this nation free from outside attackers is the U.S. armed forces. We are fools for letting just anybody and everybody immigrate to our country. NO OTHER NATION ON EARTH DOES THAT. You think you can just drive into Mexico like you would take a trip to Colorado? Not fucking hardly. There are Mexican Army checkpoints about 25 miles into the interior. Sure you can come spend your money for a day in a border town with minimal hassle, but if you go into the interior, you better have your papers and permiso straight, or you are going straight to a military lock-up. If they catch you skipping the border checkpoint and trying to walk into Mexico, you will be arrested and fucked over bigtime. Illegal immigration is a ONE-WAY DEAL with Mexico. They hate the illegal Guatamalans who come north into Mexico looking for work, and mistreat them terribly, beat them, rob them, rape women. And I'm talking about the cops and the Army here. And the cops and the Army are the best possibility. A Mexican-American journalist on a walking tour of northern Mexico was robbed and murdered by some Indios. Some friends of my wife, from work, were robbed of their car, their money and all their possessions on their honeymoon in Mexico, by the police. The rest of the world thinks Americans are so naive and trusting. We are known all over the world as easy marks. Wimps. Pussies. Not street wise. Americans in Italy get mobbed by street urchins and pickpocketed because they know that the Americans will not hurt them, even if they are being robbed. We have a world-wide reputation for being soft as shit on crime. You know what happens in Singapore if you get caught smuggling heroin, even a little bit? They HANG you. With a ROPE. Where is Amnesty International when Thailand is hanging Australian tourists? The United States has 270 million firearms in the hands of the civilian population. Just our licensed deer hunters alone number 33 million. That number is bigger than the FIVE LARGEST ARMIES ON EARTH PUT TOGETHER. We need to stop being so god damned soft, and kick these fucking ungrateful bastards out of our country. They come here, and they see a nation of prey. Time to wake up. Time to get real. Some of you guys have a totally unrealistic viewpoint of the world and our place in it. I got no sympathy for our enemies. If we take them alive, they definately are going to talk. Iraq is the third largest army in the world. When we finish with them, they are going to be "non-existant" as a military force. Even if we have to bomb Baghdad to a smoking hole in the ground, Iraq is going to cease being a problem. And we'll eventually get around to all the rest of these piss-ant little anti-American dictators, too. I can't believe the government deported 1500 Middle Eastern criminals. What the fuck were they thinking? They should have gone straight to detention centers like Krone, where we are holding hundreds of the Cuban criminals Castro sent in the Mariel boatlift. They are held "indefinately". (Read that "permenantly.") Or, we should export them to Turkey, a trusted ally, where we could build prisons for a fraction of the cost we pay here. They could be "detained" forever, and the Turks would be glad for the work. If ANYBODY fucks with the United States, they better hope to hell we don't take them alive. Because they will pay, and pay. The only solution is for them to stay off our shit list. Sadaam Hussein is right at the very top. Just look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 the only reason i can think anyone would want to migrate to mexico would be to escape prosecution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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