shape1369

Dazzle- I'm not sure, I'll ask my boy and get back with you Boxcars- I know they broke up for musical differences, but shit nearly all the members of ATDI are in Volta. Albeit the drummer does the effects now right? and they picked up like two new people while dropping like one? Thats why I feel that the Volta is the next progression of what ATDI was doing. You can here so much of the weird noise breaks that Volta has in a lot of the funky later songs that ATDI started doing. Either way, they both rock, and Sparta blows... end of story...

maybe it was just me, but I quite enjoyed the last line of your post... You in the new england area? I only hear that shit when im at school. The purple part... shit I live in the city of syrup. I do enjoy me some Dogfishead. What do you think of Long trail and Double bag?

Wellllll not exactly. Not to hijack the thread but I'll take a minute to explain golden geometry. In geometry there is a certain ratio that can be attained in a comparison of certain lengths of the side of a pentagram. This ratio is expressed as (a+b)/a = a/b. this is what we call Phi. There are actually two numbers that are expressed as Phi, big Phi and little phi. This is what we call the Golden Mean. An irrational number that can not be expressed in any other fractional form other than that of the one previously expressed. Naturally this creates a series of numbers: 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 and so on. This is called the fibonacci series. This series has rather large implecations in the natural world. More specifically it is seen in the growth patterns of petals on flowers and in seedling structures of things such as pine cones. As this concept applies to art and architecture, there are many instances where the golden mean is claimed to be used. The acropolis maintains most of its structural design based in this ratio. If one were to examine the major sections and distances between specific structures on the building itself, one would find that most of the relationships one can discern are based soley on this "Golden Ratio." It is also thought to be the most pleasing aesthetic measurement one can use in creating their art. If one sections off an ovoid using the golden ratio, one comes up with much closer proportions of a face than with the widely used halving system. Dali was one artist that was concerned with the intentional application of the ratio in his art. His depiction of the last supper is rampant with proportions based on the golden ratio. The golden spiral is the manifestation of the fibonacci series into a graphic form. If one creates a series of boxes based on this series of numbers, you can build a system through which a "perfect" spiral is created. If in each respective box a quarter circumfrential mark is made, it creates this spiral. However, this is not merely a humanly driven concept. The shell of the nautilus reflects this spiral itself. It also has applications as part of the Imaginary coordinate system, if it is transcribed onto a sphere. Either way, it's fuckin awesome. edit to say that while Pi is a great movie, it is infact quite deviated from the concepts the movie is based on. Enough on this... Back to the stencils, just hope that cured your curiousity...

You ever seen the dvd? Rediculous. A lot of their early shows in el paso. I would have loved to have seen them live. A friend and I have had many discussions about the transition from ATDI and The Volta. I sorta feel like eventually had ATDI stayed together they would have started doing the same stuff as the Volta, but by just ending the band and starting anew with the different concept they just skipped right to this point in time without all the bullshit fame in between...

Hell yeah, dude. I was way fucked up the first time I saw it, creeped the shit outa me...

like 83 said, its a golden spiral. I said what the lettering was in the top of the post. Also, again, that was just somethin I found around school. Not mine.

This actually reads "The Ear of God." It is pretty simple, but I really enjoyed it, I suppose it's because I'm obsessed with golden geometry... edit to say it's not mine. I found it walking around my school.

Here are a few of mine that I particularly like... not the best quality, but the bleed makes some of the brighter pictures interesting... a good night beautiful stingray at the mall one day first semester at school was really my first fall with explosions of color coolest natural wood formation ive ever seen, first time i saw it i thought someone had carved the skull into it... most confusing intersection ever... heres a series of shots of just the sky: maybe Dhabz and Fatalist can back me up on this but I feel texas really does have bigger skies:

you idea stealing son of a bitch... ill hurt you the next time i see you

Yeah. My grandfather is turkish and flew in the turkish airforce. When he was in his late twenties he came here through some sort of military exchange program and began teaching people how to fly here. He ended up at Flight Safety until he retired couple years ago. He has an apartment on one of the nicest beaches in Turkey, which I would love to use. It's unfortunate how fundamentalist they are becoming though. I would love to go there and see some of the beautiful places, but I am much less inclined to go knowing that things would be pretty charged over there. But thats off topic, back to the discussion at hand...

Tesser is exactly right. Turkey has been a large force in the middlde east since before WWII. It has always been the interface between Western Governments and Middle Eastern ones. Back when the Ottoman Empire still ran things, it was considered one of the more tolerant cultures in the middle east. Long has it been the prototype for what we would call a modern or progressive islamic state. While recent events would say that they are shying more towards the fundamentalist side of things, that is because those in charge right now are a little bit more radical than previous leaders. When Turkey refused america the right to use its bases right before our attack on Iraq, it was one of the first times that Turkey has ever done anything like that. There was a great article in a recent periodical from University of Chicago that talked about looking at Turkey's history as a means to effectively understand the correct methods for Western Countries to communicate and cooperate with middle eastern countries. Ill try and find it. And yeah, Tesser would know about turkey. Are you in Greece, or Italy? Either way, not great friends with Turkey...

not even silver... fuck this man, go watch crazy legs...

I think it would help if certain definitions were laid down for this discussion. Namely, what is the definition of the word faith, proof, truth, morality, and existence etc. That is why each philosopher spent innumerable pages defining these concepts in their own epistemology. It is impossible to discuss a concept if the language used is not uniformaly defined. I have thought a lot about the incongruences among philosophical thought in english versus an ideographic language. If one looks at translations of eastern texts into english, such as the Tao Te Ching, we find a use of exclusionary language. Defining things by their opposites. There is a specific word for it, but I can't particularly remember at the moment. But if you look at an ideographic language, you have one symbol to express an entire concept fully contextualized at the moment of cognition. Thus, I have a problem ever discussing religion with anyone anymore. It becomes a point of futility to try and discuss these huge and all encompassing ideas in a language that cant even be agreed upon by those in the discussion. It also seems that because the difference in our language is tied to the very systems of our thought, that it is therefor impossible to find a middle ground through which thoughts can be conveyed back and forth. Maybe I'm just too jaded, or I'm just wrong, either way, my thoughts on this.

No, I don't believe they "wanted it black", I believe they wanted the(historically well confirmed) abuse and harassment from the police force to stop, considering the catalyst for the riot was police officers infiltrating and arresting a celebration for two blacks returning from the vietnam war. Furthermore, you speak about it like White Flight wasn't already occuring in the city to the suburbs, all the riot did was serve to accelerate an already hastening phenomenon. Its also really cute that you seem to know that the collective black populace of Detroit got together and made these decisions, right? Quoted post [/b] The Racial Contract, by Charles Mills. Read it. It will explain the workings of America pretty well. It is a great example of contemporary contractarianism. It explains the underlying racial currents of the world, especially those governments based on early contractarian thought. Basically, how the proliferation of Western European imperialism during the formation of the modern political world created a global socio-political metastructure in which there are certain racial requisites to adequitely and effectively participate in society. Thus an examination of American history shows a systemic policy of racial disenfranchisement and oppression. Either way, everyone should look into it, it is a pretty awesome book for anyone interested in political philosophy.

^^^ha... i hope it starts stayin on the first page again... this was in regards to the mixtrader thread... other replies came up quicker than my stoned ass...

I second PMB's suggestion...

We totally thought about him, I dunno if The Lama could handle some Vandammage...

He doesn't need eyes... He's a lama...

Tell me this dude wouldn't win...

While recently watching Above the Law and The Delta Force in succesion of eachother, a friend and I wondered who is more badass, Steven Segal or Chuck Norris. Naturally the question then became, who would win in a fight? During peak performance, I go with Segal, I mean, he stabbed Tommy Lee Jones in the head. Plus. Norris needed more guns... Either way I present you with this main bout... vs. With opening matches between: vs. and vs. Also, has anyone else ever noticed how the covers of Segal's many movies are almost interchangable? I actually believe that the car on these two covers is the same, slight cosmetic changes, but its the same car. I also think you could switch the names of the movies but it wouldn't make a difference as to the plot or characters...

in hopes of gettin pictures back up...

When I said I have been lookin at letters for a long time I didn't mean just in graffiti. I have been into calligraphy and other aspects of lettering for a while. I am young, and I have only been into graffiti for about seven years. I have started trying to write in a much more recent span. I originally never planned on it, but I like it too much. In so much as I have had the time, patience, and initiative, I have been trying to understand letters in their simplest form. Again, not saying I particularly do, but that I understand the concept of that search alone. What then, would you have me do? And how can you say this is not art? Tags, throws and the simpler aspects of graffiti are where one's true artistic talent shows through. There is short difference betwen a wack throw and an amazing one. Again, its dismissive to say that this isn't art. It allows one to make blanket statements about things without qualifying them. Im not trying to say I think a person needs a degree to critique it, by any means. I was merely trying to say that if you do have an understanding of things then why not give your thoughts rather than give a one word answer as to how "thats even gayer than mine." I was actually trying to defend mindvapors and Dawood. I am tired of people saying "why dont you post your shit up." I could care less if a person has great work, but if they know what looks good then let them speak. When I was talking about the understanding of artistic ideals, I simply meant if a person understands graffiti. I was merely trying to elicit more of a response from them, as to what it was about my sketches that was so displeasing. So often does this debate over whether or not graffit is art comes up on this forum, and everytime the prevailing thought goes to whichever point is trying to be made. You, are trying to explain why understanding art isnt needed in criticism of graffiti, thus graffiti isn't art, but are not the things we discuss generally as far as composition, continuity, line structures, etc... artistic concepts? Its stupid to say that graffiti is independent of these things. In so much as my comment about understanding artistic ideals. I meant understanding within the construct of that specific art. Therefor, I am not saying one needs to understand dadaism or surrealism to know what looks good in graffiti, but just general artistic concepts that extend throughout all arts. I wasnt even attacking peoples capabilities to do so on here. I just wanted input rather than a dismissal. I can't even really try to make a retort to you beefeater simply because of my age and who you think I am. I make a claim, you refute it with people older than me. Its a catch 22 that I can't really get out of. Your right, I am in college, but your presumption about me being well to do is pretty uncalled for. What makes you think that? I have run the full gamet of living conditions in my life. The fact that my parents made sure Im educated is in no way indicative of the socioeconomic status that I am part of. Oh whatever, picture me as who you want, dismiss me how you will, it doesnt really matter I suppose...

^^^^ha

I thought this was good. This topic suffers from a classic case of using too many words to say something that isn't all that complicated: You can't kill for the sake of civility. Quoted post [/b] There are a couple ways to answer the question of whether or not Williams should have died. First, one can look to the philosophers who are credited with laying down the foundations of our government. Locke, Rousseau and other contractarians would argue that there is no justification for killing someone that one is not in a state of war with. Locke, because he argues that no person can have right over their own life, let alone anyone elses. Rousseau in that no one can sell or barder their lives to anyone else for any reason. This, of course, would leave one to think that dumy's "Team Smart" is on the right path. But... What should be of real concern to us in this whole situation is how our founding philosophers would view Tookie himself. In all of their seminal texts on political bodies, political philosophers discuss the concept of who can create political bodies, or enter into social contracts with eachother. There is an underlying language of exclusion as to who can actually be a citizen. Not in the naturalized immigration sense of the word, but as to a person whom legal and national protection are inheritly ascribed to. Thus we find that there is a group who it then does not matter how they are treated. If one looks historically at the way we have positioned prisoners in our society, they find that specific rights are denied to them. This speaks to prisoners as non-citizens, and thus are not applicable to the civil and natural law Locke and Rousseau speak of. They are, however, still subject to the national and uniform judicature that is one of the main characteristics of citizenship for Locke. Now we have this entire population (2million as of 2003) who stand in this grey area that our society has created. The answer to Tookie's death lies in this question: "Are prisoner's citizens of our political body?" If the answer is yes, then we cannot kill them as it becomes antithetical to the ideological foundations of our societies. Not just america, but any contemporary polity influenced by western political thinkers. If the answer is no, then this entire argument is moot. They are a people who civil law no longer applies, and thus the treatment of those people no longer matters. While that is rather black and white view of the situation, it elucidates the underlying issues of this entire situation. There are contemporary philosophers that try to understand these concepts of social alienation and contractarian application though. Charles Mills discuss the concept that while the classic philosophical thinkers did have a nice story for the ideal polity, they did it with an underlying racial contract as well. More specifically, the social contract is a metaframework of contracts that deal with more specific issues. Thus, this answers the question of who can enter into a social contract at all. We find that there are not only the original requisites laid down by classic western philosophers, but also a racial requisite. Thus in any polity that is influenced by the original western thinkers, there is a construct of our existing political bodies that accounts for people such as Tookie. According to Mill's, Williams's death is merely an extension of the intrinsic racial and social alienation of our modern political bodies. Thus it is not Tookie's death as a good or bad person that is relevant, but his position as a social and political body in contention with the national body politic he lives in, that is of concern. Maybe I'm just too high and read way to into it, but yeah, my thoughts...