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The best reasons to believe that there is a God

Discussion in 'News' started by nsmbfan, Nov 24, 2009.

  1. nsmbfan

    nsmbfan Elite Member

    Joined: Aug 8, 2007 Messages: 3,599 Likes Received: 382
    I wanna hear yours. And then disprove them.

    I'll start with one I've yet to disprove, mostly because it's so vague (which clearly, are the best explanations).

    I was baptized when I was 13 in a non-denominational Christian church. Don't know why, it was popular at the time for my family... it made grandma smile I guess. Anyways they made me take "Members Classes" to engrain myself to the teachings of this church. This is what I got out of it:

    I asked the preacher, "How do you know there is a God?"

    He responded with this:

    "Do you see this watch I have on my arm (nice gold watch)? Would you believe me if I told you that I made this watch myself. I got a shoe box, put scraps of metal in there, some springs i found, some glass, some screws.... then I sealed up this shoebox real tight. Then I shook the box. For days and day I shook this box. Everybody I met I had THEM shake the box. For over a year I shook the box. Then one day I opened the box... and pulled out this (he shows the nice gold watch again). Would you believe me?"

    I said, "No."

    He said, "Ok, so if there had to be a watchmaker who made this watch... don't you think there's a WORLD MAKER who made everything around you?"

    I was convinced by his flawless logic. So I never came back to finish my membership classes. I think subconsciously I still struggle with this concept.

    I now offer this to my oontz brethren, in an effort to see if there is equally rational counterpoints to his argument. And to hear the best reasons YOU have been led to believe there is a God... and that he loves you :)
     
  2. MAR

    MAR Veteran Member

    Joined: Jun 2, 2005 Messages: 7,264 Likes Received: 256
    Yeah, my reason is basically along the same lines as the preacher.

    The structure is too complex and incredible to assume it happened by accident, it seems irrational. No matter how much we pretend to understand what is happening around us, we really don't.

    Often I wonder if the people who deny the possibility of a god are just afraid of the idea. If something doesn't exist it can't effect you, right? Honestly, that seems to be the whole purpose of the thread.

    Why do you want to disprove them?
    I think you should consider that point.
     
  3. Decyferon

    Decyferon Moderator Crew

    Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Messages: 10,473 Likes Received: 602
    I see no reason to believe there is a god and so far in my life nothing has proven me otherwise or made me even consider that there would be a god, it is just completely illogical to think there is a god.
     
  4. .hopeless.

    .hopeless. Senior Member

    Joined: Aug 19, 2009 Messages: 1,819 Likes Received: 69
    i believe in god or some type of deity becuase it doesnt seem that the universe and all the things that are in it just sprang out of nowhere.for no reason just appeared.and all the complexities of life dont seem to be,like mars says,just some accident.idk.maybe their is a logical explaination that could sum up all these things.but regardless its always good to believe that something is beyond this life.keeps your mind off your own mortality haha.sometimes i believe that religion is just that,a way to deal with the enevitable and to answer the things we cant even begin to understand. and to keep people in line to an extent but also personally feel that there is something out there.im a christian not becuase i completely agree with the scripture or whatever but mostly becuase thats what my family is and it just makes sense to kinda keep it in the family.the way i see it it doesnt matter what god you pray too its all the same.if there is a god im guessing that he or she doesnt care how you pray to him/her.so its all good.
     
    nsmbfan likes this.
  5. Ski Mask

    Ski Mask 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 11,114 Likes Received: 209

    I will counter with a Bertrand Russel excerpt from "Why I am not a Christian" the 2nd paragraph I think is most important.


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2008
    sheep likes this.
  6. Ski Mask

    Ski Mask 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 11,114 Likes Received: 209

    so its not logical to believe the whole universe just sprang out of nowhere for no apparent reason, but its logical to believe a god created it...so where did the god come from? he must have just sprung up out of nowhere for no apparent reason right?

    this argument is invalid because it keeps going back to "who created the creator" and then you're back at square one again.
     
    Decyferon likes this.
  7. nsmbfan

    nsmbfan Elite Member

    Joined: Aug 8, 2007 Messages: 3,599 Likes Received: 382
    i would like to dispell the notion of a supreme creator, and bring people into the new age of living. I believe that it's quite possible that what we called God or Gods, were merely aliens... extra terrestrials, who put us on this earth, probably by mating with early man, thus creating "us in His image". Yes I stole my theory from a book, but so did you. At least I don't go waging wars over my belief system... and therefore it is superior.

    and to mock, to give myself a feeling of intellectual superiority... you know, the kind of mental masturbation most introverted genius types indulge in.

    why else?

    oh and thanks for saying my thread has a purpose ;)


    EDIT: that sounded dickish, but i'm not erasing. maybe you're right. this might be my cry for help and understanding of faith and religion in general. my purpose was to find out what drives people to believing whatever it is they do. if I can see how it affected you I may be open to it. see? sounds better now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
    Ski Mask likes this.
  8. nsmbfan

    nsmbfan Elite Member

    Joined: Aug 8, 2007 Messages: 3,599 Likes Received: 382
    fungus.

    every condition has to be JUST right in order for fungus to grow; temperature, lighting, humidity, the right mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide. if conditions are just right, the fungus grows and grows. it replicates itself a million times over... so long as the growing conditions are right. but remove even ONE of the conditions that make the fungus thrive and you will kill it.

    we are fungus.

    Floating through space, we caught the perfect storm of elements on Planet Earth. And in the grand scheme of things our lifespan is short lived. Millions of years to us tiny humans, with a definite beginning and ending.

    Could it be possible that humans are just one type of creature out in space colonizing hospitable planets during their "perfect growth conditions" stage? Every few million years packing up and moving to the next hospitable planet?

    Sounds like bacteria to me. Fungus. We are fungus people.
     
  9. lord_casek

    lord_casek 12oz Royalty

    Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Messages: 27,078 Likes Received: 1,007
    We're on a rock hurdling through space around a star that is one of trillions of other stars
    in a vast universe.

    Not a reason to believe there is a creator, but it's amazing nonetheless.
     
  10. Ski Mask

    Ski Mask 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 11,114 Likes Received: 209
    I'm an atheist. when you interject this bit you lose me. if we're going to be scientific about things, why do you suppose we're aliens/intergallactic travellers? it sounds like a big heaping pile of bullshit to me.
     
    the.crooked likes this.
  11. the.crooked

    the.crooked Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 7, 2006 Messages: 5,837 Likes Received: 166
    Intelligent design is predicated on a misappropriation of scientific terms and misrepresenting the scientific method.

    I know myself and a few others on the board have relentlessly argued against it.

    The simple fact of the matter is that Billions of years of time have allowed for complex systems to emerge where their sum seems greater than the amalgamation of their parts.

    There is an entire section of mathematic theory dedicated to these ideas.

    Systems theory uses models with very simple starting terms to develop wildly complex, vibrant and robust systems. Life, the universe and even consciousness can pretty well be explained by these ideas.

    To MAR,

    It's only accidental in the philosophical sense of the word. That it could have happened another way. But it didn't.

    I would argue that irrationality in existential arguments is a hard thing to even bring into it. Is it rational to believe in science? Is it rational to believe in god? What do the terms rational mean in each use there? For that matter what does the word belief mean in either use?

    In regards to science most who "believe" in it would claim that the rational is that which matches a certain logic. That logic is the same logic which drives the scientific and mathematic engine. It's almost tautological to call a belief in science "rational" for one would have already had to agree to that particular use and meaning of rationality at all. However, for arguments sake, let us call "rational" here to mean a belief in something that confirms or disconfirms a scientific theory set forth by very particular rules for empirical observation.

    The same goes in converse for a "rational" belief in a god. What is rational is simply what is consistent with one's existential frame work. What seems improbable in its potential for the Christian is blatant in its logical necessity to the Scientific Atheist.

    The disputes between the use of rationality and belief in these two cases sort of highlights the problem that Science itself has when dealing with Intelligent Design. The misuse of scientific terms and concepts is so egregious to those that follow and conduct scientific study that it almost renders the community immobile when trying to form an intelligible response to ID's claims. But to the lay-christian it seems to be "Scientific" rigor that affords them the ability to claim that there must be a creator if there are gaps in the explanatory power of a given scientific theory.

    In this case it attacks Evolutionary theory and the idea that there are "gaps in the fossil record."

    Which is itself a ridiculous argument. Science has never claimed that the fossil record is the grail of evolutionary theory. Particularly in light of recent advances in molecular evoltionary theory. We are coming up with much more accurate and concise visions of the living spectrum through genetic matching.

    Just the other day there were major revisions to theories regarding several different types of dinosaurs. Rather than thinking they were all different species, it turns out that several were just juveniles of another species, etc.


    Basically, the point is, science does not claim to know everything, and it is a built in function to predicate its own failures as a means of self revision. Religion updates itself in a much different way. The dogmas of the two may each require faith in their own ways, but the faith of a secular belief is tied to something much more earthly and real than any dogma of soteriology and omniscent, omnipresent and omnipotent beings.



    That turned into a larger response than just for MAR, but yeah.
     
    Ski Mask likes this.
  12. the.crooked

    the.crooked Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 7, 2006 Messages: 5,837 Likes Received: 166
    Also,

    NSMBFAN- I'd heed Ski Mask's point and watch your use of pseudo-science. You aren't going to gain ground with either camp, be it secular or non-secular, if you keep on with those views.

    You tend to sound a bit new-agey when you talk bout this stuff. And I can assure you there are few things less scientific than new-age hippy space bullshit.


    just sayin.
     
    Ginger Bread Man likes this.
  13. dowmagik

    dowmagik Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 19, 2001 Messages: 6,779 Likes Received: 366
    [​IMG]
    best refutation of the design argument ive read ^^
     
  14. Mainframe

    Mainframe Member

    Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Messages: 334 Likes Received: 17
    I think crooked pretty much broke it down. But, framing the argument as one of two options, God exists or God does not exist, is very restrictive.

    I believe in the concept of god, with a lower case g, but not in an omnipotent creator. I think Einstein put it very well:

    "The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image - a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere."

    I would say that this "awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe" refers to god, both in a secular and religious sense. The idea of an omnipotent being in the sky watching over us seems like left-over superstition from a time when mankind understood much less about the physical world than we do now, but I still think the roots of religious feeling lie in this same reverence, this same recognition of the essential mystery underlying existence.

    Everyone knows that science only gives us answers to "how" and not to "why." They even said that on South Park. There is no real incompatibility between science and religion. There is no fundamental reason or "logic" as to why the laws of physics work the way they do, there is only a self-consistent framework; god lies in the final, atavistic "why" that is beyond the reach of science.

    William Blake was a non-religious believer:

    "To see a world in a grain of sand
    And a heaven in a wild flower,
    Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
    And eternity in an hour."
     
    Taylor Perdue likes this.
  15. MoonsOfSulkendastron

    MoonsOfSulkendastron New Jack

    Joined: Dec 9, 2008 Messages: 82 Likes Received: 8
    This author seems to have convinced himself that science is completely right, thus he limits himself here....

    He says that rabbits have developed white tails as a response to enemies, thus adapting to their environment. Thats evolution, and theres no design about it...but he fails to go deeper and completely misses the possibility of adaption ITSELF being a design. No doubt evolution exists, but you will have a hard time convincing me that there was a big bang and -poof- the universe was here....its all far too perfect, and clever. There had to be a mind or somthing behind it that designed everything to continue to evolve.

    If you believe that theres a good(God) and evil(Satan), then it is easy to see why there are such horrible things such as war and the KKK. I believe that God gives us free will; he wants us to be able to choose to believe that he exists, otherwise we would just be boring slaves to God, with no desire to know him or check out what he created like emotions, earth, space, whatever.

    Similarly, with the freedom of personal choice, we can choose to believe he does not exist. This is where Satan(if you believe in such things) influences the equation. We can choose to love our neighbor(God), or choose to join the KKK and kill people(Satan). People choose how they live their lives. People choose to give to a bum, to not bang anothers cats wife, be around for their kids, etc. People choose to wage wars, commit crimes, screw their secretary, etc. ('the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist' hahahaha)

    All the bad things in the world could then be evaluated in light of this. How could God let all this happen??? ---because he gave us a free will because he wants us to choose to believe in him and enjoy life, because forced submission isnt a choice, so the desire isnt real. So in a way its like 'heres the earth, live in it as you please, and I'm here if you need me' And the reason he gives us this free will is because he loves us, and the reason he loves us is because he created us, and the reason he created us is because he was so freakin bored he wanted somthin to talk to!!! Or at least just to watch and see what we do to his perfectly calculated creation, just to test a theory or somthin. Maybe if humans fail he'll create some sort of other..thing.......

    Anyway, I feel as though it requires a tremendously more amount of faith to believe that everything just appeared and works this well than to believe that there was a creative mind behind it all. If you believe in only what theory-based science tells you, because you can physically see it and you need that type of reassurance to believe in things, then in my opinion you are believing in the creation, not the deity/mind/god/whatever that created it.

    Believe in god or not, who cares. I cant scientifically proove he does(although scientific impossibilities and unexplainable phenomena, not to mention the UNIVERSE, are rather curious.....); its all based on faith. You have faith that he does, or faith that he dont. Thats cool too-we can choose.

    However I do challenge anyone to prove to me that there is not a god.
     
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