another school shooting

[JigaboosPigaboos]

Im not saying that the us doesnt have gun crime. Im saying that at the point where we do have gun crime the best way to solve it is to arm potential victims.

[christo-f]

Yeah, I agree with that. It's just a pity that it has got to that point. In countries that don't experience the same severity it's best to have tight gun control. I think we agree with each other TBH.

[Stereotype V.0002]

China ............... massacres? No.

 

What would you call tiananmen square then? China has a totally awesome system and all, but I like using the internet and not suffocating when I run, so I will probably not move and just deal with the roving crowds of gun wielding maniacs here.

[Stereotype V.0002]

I agree with what you said here and I was talking about these specific types of murders, not drug killings or religious terrorism. The murders and killings that happen in poorer countries for the most part have different motivations than these types of murders.

 

Yeah but there are serial killers and that type of stuff, we just don't hear about it on the news. The hierarchy of newsworthiness is 1 local yokel having a heart attack at kfc = 10 europeans dying in a moped pile up = 10,000 africans killed from disease/genocide. Of course the dopplar radar and news chopper 5 covering traffic takes precedence over all.

[christo-f]

What would you call tiananmen square then? China has a totally awesome system and all, but I like using the internet and not suffocating when I run, so I will probably not move and just deal with the roving crowds of gun wielding maniacs here.

Hey, they used tanks, not guns!:p

 

Seriously though, a state crack down (almost 20 years ago) is not the issue, we're discussing citizens access to weapons and their tendency to massacre each other. As for the internet filters; I miss my porn.:(

 

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put shit on the US at all. I'm not making any judgement calls or saying anyone is stupid, etc. I'm only talking about gun laws and the culture of masacres that seems to have been forming at what I think is an alarming rate since Columbine. I'd still argue that the US is one of the best places to live in the world. My sister lives in Connecticut and that is one place where I'd happily bring up a family.

[JigaboosPigaboos]

Im not saying that the us doesnt have gun crime. Im saying that at the point where we do have gun crime the best way to solve it is to arm potential victims.

 

Actually I believe people should have the freedom to have whatever they want.

 

"I would rather wallow in the barbarianism of freedom than bask in the civility of tyranny"

[christo-f]

Actually I believe people should have the freedom to have whatever they want.

 

"I would rather wallow in the barbarianism of freedom than bask in the civility of tyranny"

I would hardly call countries like Australia, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Canada, Sweden, and others that have strict gun control as those that suffer under tyranny.

 

Heroine, crack, child pornography and anthrax are illegal in most if not every state. Do you call this the civility of tyranny too?

[lord_casek]

I would hardly call countries like Australia, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Canada, Sweden, and others that have strict gun control as those that suffer under tyranny.

 

Heroine, crack, child pornography and anthrax are illegal in most if not every state. Do you call this the civility of tyranny too?

 

 

how do you compare a weapon used to defend ones self and ones family to drugs, child porn, and bio-weapons?

[ActingStupid]

i'd say it has more to do with he parents than students too. But it comes from both sides not only the kid whos shooting but the kids who pushed he/she to do what they did. The kid that's doing the shooting could have had a shitty upbringing or he might just be bonkers also , but to have a shitty homelife and than go to school and deal with a couple of the same assholes on top of that can factor in. Although they might not have a shitty home life and life in general could just be factoring in, not all these kids are It's just kind've like, how many times does it have to happen? The teachers know which kids are bullying or whatever you may want to call it, but they can't be there 24/7 to be like "Danny leave johnny alone." I'm not saying i'd do it but theres deffinately a couple kids who were such fucking assholes in high school that i wouldn't care if they died, but i guess that's how anyone might feel. Although, most kids are assholes and you just have to not give a fuck because half of them are morons. Don't get me wrong I did my fair share of being an asshole too.

 

As far as the jokes, keep it to yourself.

[ActingStupid]

another thing is, we don't really NEED guns. what do people use them for other than hunting that justifies them really having a gun? If you dont have guns you don't need to protect yourself from other guns. but that's just me, and as far as hunting goes i think it's stupid, but im just another broccoli head.

[lord_casek]

another thing is, we don't really NEED guns. what do people use them for other than hunting that justifies them really having a gun? If you dont have guns you don't need to protect yourself from other guns. but that's just me, and as far as hunting goes i think it's stupid, but im just another broccoli head.

 

they're here and you're not going to get rid of them by wishing or hoping.

so, you're going to have to have them to protect yourself and your family from

the nutters who do have them.

 

we (americans) have now become a nation of pussy's. dads don't teach sons about gun

safety at a young age anymore, no one wants to fight with fists these days, music glamorizes bullshit, and we have a nation on anti-depressants.

 

sure, i don't want the local crazy kid to be able to legally obtain a gun, but what's going to stop him/her from going out and purchasing a stolen gun? or just straight up stealing a gun that was legally purchased by a sane individual? nothing.

[JigaboosPigaboos]

Im not saying that those countries are tyranny's yet. Im saying that when the goverment controls what you can and cant do in the name of civility its the start of more restrictions.

Atleast I can see what I want on the internet

Atleast I can own a gun.

Fear isnt the reason to own a gun or carry a gun. I believe people should do it for the same reason they should have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers or wear seatbelts.

 

The point of this is that "reasonable restrictions" are the start of bans and that has been the truth throughout history.

[lord_casek]

Im not saying that those countries are tyranny's yet. Im saying that when the goverment controls what you can and cant do in the name of civility its the start of more restrictions.

Atleast I can see what I want on the internet

Atleast I can own a gun.

Fear isnt the reason to own a gun or carry a gun. I believe people should do it for the same reason they should have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers or wear seatbelts.

 

The point of this is that "reasonable restrictions" are the start of bans and that has been the truth throughout history.

 

EXACTLY! when you're born on american soil, it's your civil duty to own a gun. you may never use it to defend your own, but our forefathers explicitly wanted us all to own guns. it helps keep our government in check (see my sig)

[christo-f]

how do you compare a weapon used to defend ones self and ones family to drugs, child porn, and bio-weapons?

I never compared them at all. I just asked, implicitly, where does restriction stop being tyranny and become welcome policy. That to me is obviously up to the individual.

 

they're here and you're not going to get rid of them by wishing or hoping.

so, you're going to have to have them to protect yourself and your family from

the nutters who do have them.

When it comes to the US, I agree.

 

Im not saying that those countries are tyranny's yet. Im saying that when the goverment controls what you can and cant do in the name of civility its the start of more restrictions.

Atleast I can see what I want on the internet

Atleast I can own a gun.

Fear isnt the reason to own a gun or carry a gun. I believe people should do it for the same reason they should have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers or wear seatbelts.

 

The point of this is that "reasonable restrictions" are the start of bans and that has been the truth throughout history.

Nope. 1. History does not determine the future. 2. Sweden you can still see what you want on the internet, The Netherlands has less restrictions in the name of civility than the US, yet it has gun control. Australia has a some freedoms the US doesn't have. I think the view you have of gun control is really quite pessimistic and a little over the top. Germany has gun controls yet you have more freedoms with drugs, etc. The Us has strict drug laws, anti-gay marriage laws (if that isn't a restriction of private rights I don't know what is) etc. I really don't think it is a sound argument you make but more some alarmist proclamations. That is not meant as a slight at you, but at your argument.

 

EXACTLY! when you're born on american soil' date=' it's your civil duty to own a gun. you may never use it to defend your own, but our forefathers explicitly wanted us all to own guns. it helps keep our government in check (see my sig)/QUOTE']Sorry, but that really is romantic if not paranoid waffle. Last time I looked the US was a democracy and the generals of the army are not paid filthy pay checks, run the mafia or are the brother of the president. You have the opportunity to change your government without guns every four years.

[lord_casek]

I never compared them at all. I just asked, implicitly, where does restriction stop being tyranny and become welcome policy. That to me is obviously up to the individual.

 

When it comes to the US, I agree.

 

Nope. 1. History does not determine the future. 2. Sweden you can still see what you want on the internet, The Netherlands has less restrictions in the name of civility than the US, yet it has gun control. Australia has a some freedoms the US doesn't have. I think the view you have of gun control is really quite pessimistic and a little over the top. Germany has gun controls yet you have more freedoms with drugs, etc. The Us has strict drug laws, anti-gay marriage laws (if that isn't a restriction of private rights I don't know what is) etc. I really don't think it is a sound argument you make but more some alarmist proclamations. That is not meant as a slight at you, but at your argument.

 

EXACTLY! when you're born on american soil' date=' it's your civil duty to own a gun. you may never use it to defend your own, but our forefathers explicitly wanted us all to own guns. it helps keep our government in check (see my sig)/QUOTE']Sorry, but that really is romantic if not paranoid waffle. Last time I looked the US was a democracy and the generals of the army are not paid filthy pay checks, run the mafia or are the brother of the president. You have the opportunity to change your government without guns every four years.

 

 

addressing that last one:

 

we have guns to keep that president and his military in check. and you're wrong, we're a republic.

 

"and to this republic, for which it stands, one nation, under god......."

[christo-f]

What?! Sure you're a republic, but you're still a democratic republic and the army is not the President's, it's the peoples. As I said, the generals are not the head of the mafia or the president's family. They would not follow the president if he expected them to do something unconstitutional. Small incidents like the uni shootings in the 60's can happen once every 50 or so years, but to think the soldiers and elements of command would physically repress the people to the point the US becomes an authoritarian military state is to play with paranoia. Do you think that all these people have completely different views of America than the Army and it's command elements? We're talking about the Us here, not a post Stalinist state like Russia, China or Burma!

 

As I said, you have a legislative body, elections and a judiciary separated from the government to keep them in control.

[lord_casek]

What?! Sure you're a republic, but you're still a democratic republic and the army is not the President's, it's the peoples. As I said, the generals are not the head of the mafia or the president's family. They would not follow the president if he expected them to do something unconstitutional. Small incidents like the uni shootings in the 60's can happen once every 50 or so years, but to think the soldiers and elements of command would physically repress the people to the point the US becomes an authoritarian military state is to play with paranoia. Do you think that all these people have completely different views of America than the Army and it's command elements? We're talking about the Us here, not a post Stalinist state like Russia, China or Burma!

 

As I said, you have a legislative body, elections and a judiciary separated from the government to keep them in control.

 

 

the universtiy shooting in texas in the 60's?

 

let me fill you in on who were the hero's that day. the people. the armed citizens of austin

were the ones who fired back at that jackass in the tower. the cops were running around scared. and if it weren't for the people returning fire, the three brave cops who did go into the tower to finally take down that guy wouldn't have been able to cross the lawn to that tower.

 

as for the military: what's happening in our country right now is vital. we are cross training troops and police, a violation of posse comitatus, we are training foreign troops on our soil (they took part in the gun grabbing in new orleans after the hurricane, also in martial law drills on our soil), we are hiring in non-citizens into our military (specifically the army)....and all of this adds up to one bucket of very stinky shit.

 

our troops may not want to fire on the citizens of the country, but foreigners might not have such a problem with it.

 

if you'd like me to continue, let me know.

[christo-f]

Pretty sure I mentioned the Uni shootings in the 60's..., which was 50 years ago. You can continue as much as you want but I still think you are letting you imagination run away with yourself. IMO, this kind of mentality is the same type that blew up the FBI building in Oklahoma. The government is not your enemy, the government is not going to turn on its own people and the army sure as shit won't follow. The US has been training foreign armies for years. As an Australian soldier I trained foreign soldiers. It doesn't mean shit. I can tell you the Aussie army wouldn't turn on its own citizens for anything and I feel that the US army is far more patriotic than most. I don't think you need to have anywhere near as much fear of your own kind as you do. You are a democracy, you can and do change your government without shooting at them all the time.

[lord_casek]

Pretty sure I mentioned the Uni shootings in the 60's..., which was 50 years ago. You can continue as much as you want but I still think you are letting you imagination run away with yourself. IMO, this kind of mentality is the same type that blew up the FBI building in Oklahoma. The government is not your enemy, the government is not going to turn on its own people and the army sure as shit won't follow. The US has been training foreign armies for years. As an Australian soldier I trained foreign soldiers. It doesn't mean shit. I can tell you the Aussie army wouldn't turn on its own citizens for anything and I feel that the US army is far more patriotic than most. I don't think you need to have anywhere near as much fear of your own kind as you do. You are a democracy, you can and do change your government without shooting at them all the time.

 

 

 

i'm not at all disillusioned, and in no way would i ever blow something up (oklahoma reference you made).

we do have something to fear, my friend. each and every day our govt (the u.s.) is taking away our basic god given rights. we can now be picked up for speaking out against the president, we can undergo rendition never to be heard from again, no trial, no lawyer.

this is what our founders talked about. this is why they wanted us to own guns.

if you think i'm paranoid, you're mistaken. you'd also be mistaken if you thought i was afraid (of doing what is right and just).

[christo-f]

I will concede that recently your freedoms have been curtailed upon, no doubt about that. I think/hope this is something that will recede with the current threat though. I just think it's a bit far fetched that the arms of enforcement, military and police force, will turn on the country when they are the country itself.

 

Anyway, interesting stuff.

[lord_casek]

I will concede that recently your freedoms have been curtailed upon, no doubt about that. I think/hope this is something that will recede with the current threat though. I just think it's a bit far fetched that the arms of enforcement, military and police force, will turn on the country when they are the country itself.

 

Anyway, interesting stuff.

 

 

i'm not saying all are despots in training. most are very patriotic, as you said. some will turn, and some won't.

 

as you said, let us all hope and pray this doesn't turn into a modern civil war.

[shai]

And crazy kids shouldn't have guns.

[JigaboosPigaboos]

Def^

I realize that the countries that do have tight gun control have looser laws in different issues. In general I believe people should be able to do whatever they feel like unless it directly affects someone else. I should be able to shoot myself full of meth and walk around the police station without getting bothered. I should be able to buy any firearm I like, this victim disarmament bullshit gets annoying. If you look at history you can see that minor restrictions have always led to more and more restrictions till it gets nearly irreversible like the shitstorm of drug laws in the US.

 

I hear people say, but would you allow nuclear weapons? What about chemical weapons? That doesnt really compare to firearms.

If state resources still struggle to get those then how could the average motherfucker who Id be worried about having that kind of shit get them.

 

Its frustrating, alot of the people who vote for more drug laws and more anti gay marriage laws and more anti abortion laws are the same people who vote for less gun laws. Ive gone to the anti abortion protests and asked them about there thoughts on all those kinds of things all friendly like and when you mention their hypocritical logic they stumble and trip over there bullshit idealogy until you leave.

[~KRYLON2~]

shit i was just at niu visiting some friends from high school. good thing i left before this shit happened. its fucked up how dude just killed some random people, i never understood how someone could do that.

[JigaboosPigaboos]

Condolences to the familys of those lost.

[ActingStupid]

Me personally, i dont get how not teaching kids about guns make us a nation of pussies, what does a gun have to do with being a man?

[ActingStupid]

and i'm not trying to offend anyone in any way by saying that, everyone has different ideas, i personally dont like guns, i dont necessarily think they shouldn't exist, but im saying we can live with without them

[Dranx0]

Firearm training and education should be part of school curriculum. Similar to Israel. Guns aren't going away.

Any adult should be able to identify and secure a firearm.

Ownership is the option available to each citizen to determine.

Fear of anything is no excuse for ignorance.

There are not many shooting sprees in Israel, Israeli shooting a shopping mall or school full of Israelis.

[thecoldmidwest]

Illinois has some of the most restrictive firearm laws in the country.

 

To possess or purchase firearms or ammunition, Illinois residents must have a Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card, which is issued by the state police. Generally an FOID will be granted unless the applicant has been convicted of a felony or an act of domestic violence, has been convicted of assault or battery or been a patient in a mental institution within the last five years, or is the subject of an order of protection. There are additional requirements for applicants under the age of 21.

 

There is no state preemption of firearm laws, with the result that some localities have outlawed the possession of handguns. These include the Chicago suburbs of Winnetka, Wilmette, Morton Grove, Evanston, and Oak Park. Highland Park also prohibits handguns, unless the resident has obtained a permit from the police. Some municipalities, most notably Chicago, require that all firearms be registered with the local police department. Chicago does not allow the registration of handguns, which has the effect of outlawing their possession, unless they were grandfathered in by being registered before April 16, 1982. Additionally, Cook County has banned assault weapons and magazines that can hold more than ten rounds of ammunition. Other municipalities have also enacted various firearm restrictions. Lack of preemption makes it difficult to travel throughout Illinois with a firearm while being sure that no laws are being broken.

 

Illinois is one of two remaining states that have no provision for the concealed carry of firearms by citizens. Open carry is also illegal, except when hunting. When a firearm is being transported, it must be unloaded and enclosed in a case.

 

When purchasing a handgun in Illinois, there is a 72 hour waiting period after the sale before the buyer can take possession. The waiting period for long guns is 24 hours.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Illinois

[christo-f]

Jigaboospigaboos, I see and understand your logic. I wish we could do what we wanted without harming others as well. The only problem is that 99% of the time heroine addiction, drink driving, crack smoking, etc. will lead to the harm of others whether we like it or not. Owning crazied, rabbied atack dogs in your yard doesn't harm others, but if those dogs aren't kept responsibly then the harm to others is almost inevitable. It's the same with drugs and guns. Our society has proven that we are not responsible enough to handle certain devices and freedoms because harm does and will inevitably come of them. Just watch the news and you'll get all the proof that you need.

 

I'm partial to the odd pipe and the odd paint on a wall, so I seriously know where you are coming from, but there is a certain paradox involved in liberty like that. Once you allow complete freedom, the fucking idiots take over and you have to armour plate your house and carry shotties and AK's with you all the time because everything's turned to shit. No freedom in that.

 

As for comparing the US to Israel in security terms, I don't think that is particularly an appropriate match. There are a certain number of other variables in that mix!