why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[Juan Fuentes]

you can get me ELMO or OPRAH confessing to 911 the evidence shows the weapons used in that attack were more than 4 planes.

that technique does not work on me.i think outside the (tv)box.

 

peace

 

 

p.s:the bin laden tapes is a fake osama,evidence again shows it.

and the 2nd one,still,the evidence does not show it.

im not off my rockets,im just bringing little stupid proves that show u 911 truth disbelievers how all the coincidences point one way.

[Theo Huxtable.]

in all honesty, do you use drugs?

 

generally these conspiracy nuts smoke a lot of marijuana at least, from what i've observed. some of the more hardcore ones go beyond the hemp and venture into sherm, speed, coke, etc.

[Ski Mask]

so basically. this sets things up so that no evidence, of any kind, ever, short of bringing osama to your door in person to confess will convince you, is that right?

[Theo Huxtable.]

so basically. this sets things up so that no evidence, of any kind, ever, short of bringing osama to your door in person to confess will convince you, is that right?

 

pretty much.

[Juan Fuentes]

so basically. this sets things up so that no evidence, of any kind, ever, short of bringing osama to your door in person to confess will convince you, is that right?

 

of course ese,im not being sarcastic and i dont do drugs,smoke nor drink at all, and yeah ese,u can bring osama to my door and he can confess,i see clearly what happened on 911 was weird as hell,how the towers fell,the way and speed,and the secondary expossion reports plus the huge amound of questions unanswered that i wont go through in this post.

 

again,its not a matter of someone confessing,the evidence does not show it like planes only did it.thanks for asking because i do want to explain to you how i see things with this conspiracy stuff that until i dont verify it myself i dont believe it,and its not about following other people's thoughts/ideas/opinions,ive done my research for years and for a long time i have been more than convinced 911 is an inside job.

 

till next time

 

 

peace

[lord_casek]

new video of 2nd plane hitting

http://www.supporttube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a41ddf9f4bdef84fdc73&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr

[Theo Huxtable.]

that's not really new. seen that one a couple years ago at least

 

i have seen 3 different videos of the first plane hitting. anyone know if there's any others?

 

one is from a distance while a guy is driving, the other is a grainy bit-by-bit shot (like the pentagon video), and of course the other one is the most viewed one where the guy is filming the fireman beforehand.

[Theo Huxtable.]

footage collection part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_gdCrmbrIg

 

footage collection part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI-RCpdy9tw

 

youtube user posted his video... never seen this one... plane hits at 2:39 (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULr0Gl0tj70

 

(part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGp8-76qD3w

[lord_casek]

thanks theo. good collection of video there.

will watch later.

[Theo Huxtable.]

kevin cosgrove 911 phone call... be warned, not for the faint of heart

 

[lord_casek]

i can't listen atm. that sounds pretty crazy from the first few seconds.

[RAWoNe]

yes, you did go on about how his face was blurry and he looked too "chubby" and that it was a double. however i provided a second video which you never did comment on. this video was released to the public just a few days prior to the kerry-bush elections in november '04. it's the video with the tan background. in it, bin laden made references to the elections and also gave out his reasonings why he ordered that the attacks be carried out. he also saw Farenheit 9/11, as he mocked Bush for being concerned with "my pet goat" while his "men" were "carrying out raids in New York & Washington."

 

Huxtable the only thing i have to say to you on this Bin Laden confession matter is what i am directly quoting you stating. "however i provided a second video which you never did comment on. this video was released to the public just a few days prior to the kerry-bush elections in november '04." I am not going to make sly remarks, i just want you to re-read that statement and think long and hard.

 

I just recently found this thread or i wouldve been involved much much earlier. What many of us who are trying to learn more about 9/11 are quickly learning is that many of the sites offering information are gone, and many of the professors who once stated that they had been doing research on the "collapse" of the towers retracted statements after threats of losing funding for their departments. I have faced ethnic slurs and bigotry towards myself and others because of people knowing nothing else but hatred towards those who question their beloved American government. I am orginally from Ireland and although i would not like to disclose much more information about myslelf i have lived in america for a decade and a half, this country has given myself and my family alot, yet people choose to call me anti-American when i began to question such an epic, world changing event. Of course i shook off the ignorance but what these people didnt understand is that those who are not bombarded by American mianstream media across the globe usually openly believe that the United States government had major involvement in 9/11. Whenever i return to europe friends and family would ask me of those "idiots over there came to their senses yet" and i would say yes some of them, but most are still in a deep deep state of denial. I know it would be hard for most to believe that the country in which they came into this world was responsible for an attack on their own. However one really needs to examine the motives behind their government, and perhaps read up on their history a little bit. These people driving around with support our troops with 6 American flags on their cars are the antithesis of what America once stood for. I'm sure one of these nay sayers will bombard what i am sayin but i have learned to be mor tranquil in my statements because i feel that most will never understand because they simply do not want to. I'll leave the rest to the founding fathers of a nation they wouldnt even want to be a part of today.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." George Washington

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

[RAWoNe]

I'm sorry but this is plain wrong You can live in your forum world but come over here and talk to some real people out and baout in any major European city including London. Come here to Europe, take 20 people out of every bar and restaurant at whatever time of day you wish and ask them what they belivee happened on 9/11 or more importantly in London on 7/7. I'm not sure what kind of forum you were on but i can guarantee this to you that whoever was stating that they feel people with the same beliefs as i, to be "conspiracy theorists" is in an extreme minority.

 

Your absolutely wrong about the FACT that these theories have been "debunked." Recently Jeff King of MIT the most accreditied university in its field has come out at multiple conferences and speaking out about factual evidence that the support columns could not by the LAWS OF PHYSICS have fallen due to 200 jets flying into the building let alone one each. Did you also know that the shearing of the columns has now been ratified by several demolition professionals as clear cut demolition work. You can keep denying it but in years to come when it all comes out you and most of America is going to have one collective head covered in shit after being stuck up your ass for the last 5 and a half years. GET A GRIP. what do you think you are protecting? Why do you refuse to even try and look at the facts. There was less than a million dollars spent on researching 9/11. every other plane crash since the beginning of commercial aviation has been fully investigated. However in this case there wasnt even an attempt at rebuiliding the aircraft? They stated that there wasnt enough reconstructable evidence, leading once again to the fact that there were explosins and fire that reached temperatures UNATTAINABLE BY OFFICE FURNITURE AND DRYWALL. The kerosene based jet fuel wouldve burned off in the first explosion and in the following minutes. The world trade centers were extremely fireproofed. Extremely fireproofed. It's your choice to stay stubborn on the fact and believe what you may, im not even asking you to believe the US government was involved im asking you to open your eyes and understand that these builidings didnt break the laws of physics and they definitely werent collapsed by the impact of the planes. Oh yeah i meant to ask how many American flags you have on your car?

[russell jones]

"PlaguePuppy is the nom-de-net of Jeff King, a 60ish former electrical engineer - graduated from MIT, class of '74 with a combined Biology-EE major, worked for about eight years in electronics and electro-mechanical engineering. At the moment, and for about the past 25 years, I have been working as a family physician, doing office-based primary care in rural central California."

 

 

King is not part of the MIT, he just graduated from there. He also graduated in 1974, and hasn't worked as an engineer for decades.

[russell jones]

BTW,

 

The title of this thread is ironic, isn't it?

[Ski Mask]

I'll give a full reply in a bit, but jeff king is not a MIT professor. He graduated years ago with an electrical engineering degree, but he has never taught at MIT

[Ski Mask]

I think the refusal to confront the people who dont believe this is a conspiracy, but ARENT brainwashed bush followers is whats pissing us off. people always respond with tirades about how brainwashed the "nonbelievers" are. you need to start addressing those of us who arent.

[russell jones]

Show us some real evidence, and we'll believe.

[Theo Huxtable.]

I'm sorry but this is plain wrong You can live in your forum world but come over here and talk to some real people out and baout in any major European city including London. Come here to Europe, take 20 people out of every bar and restaurant at whatever time of day you wish and ask them what they belivee happened on 9/11 or more importantly in London on 7/7. I'm not sure what kind of forum you were on but i can guarantee this to you that whoever was stating that they feel people with the same beliefs as i, to be "conspiracy theorists" is in an extreme minority.

 

By "extreme minority," are you saying that perhaps over 90% of Europeans don't believe Muslim extremists were behind 9/11 or even the 7/7 bombings? Do you have a source that shows that such an overwhelmingly high percentage of Europeans believe that Bush was behind 9/11?

 

Do you believe that Muslim-based terrorism even exists? Do you believe ANY terrorist act in history has been conducted by Muslim extremists?

 

 

Your absolutely wrong about the FACT that these theories have been "debunked."

 

If you just said the debunking is a fact, why do you say I was wrong about it? A fact cannot be wrong.

 

Recently Jeff King of MIT the most accreditied university in its field has come out at multiple conferences and speaking out about factual evidence that the support columns could not by the LAWS OF PHYSICS have fallen due to 200 jets flying into the building let alone one each.

 

That's a load of bullshit. 200 jets wouldn't bring it down? Even if they hit the same impact zone 200 times straight?

 

Did you also know that the shearing of the columns has now been ratified by several demolition professionals as clear cut demolition work.

 

For every few "experts" that makes wild claims of "sheared columns" and "200 planes not being able to bring down a building," there are hundreds of experts that will (and have) come to a more rational conclusion.

 

Afterall, who do you think played leadership roles in not only debunking the conspiracy theorists but also in leading the 9/11 investigations? You guessed it -- "experts," structural engineers, scientists, etc. Funny you disregard their reasonings and conclusions, while quickly gravitating to the few "experts" that happen to have nutcase conspiracy theories.

 

You can keep denying it but in years to come when it all comes out you and most of America is going to have one collective head covered in shit after being stuck up your ass for the last 5 and a half years..

 

5-10 years from now you're going to be "waiting" for "it" "to all come out," and for Bush to either confess to masterminding 9/11, and for evidence to be revealed that Bin Laden is an American actor working for the CIA, and for all the airline passengers who called their loved ones and described the Arab hijackers to come out of hiding -- and for all of us with logic and rationality to feel "stupid" -- unfortunately for you, like all the people that waited for Y2K, you will continue to wait in vain. Just like all the OJ Simpson sympathizers that were waiting for the "real killers" to be exposed, you will delusionally and futilely continue to hold on to a withering "hope" that will only fade off into oblivion.

 

GET A GRIP. what do you think you are protecting? Why do you refuse to even try and look at the facts. There was less than a million dollars spent on researching 9/11. every other plane crash since the beginning of commercial aviation has been fully investigated. However in this case there wasnt even an attempt at rebuiliding the aircraft? They stated that there wasnt enough reconstructable evidence, leading once again to the fact that there were explosins and fire that reached temperatures UNATTAINABLE BY OFFICE FURNITURE AND DRYWALL. The kerosene based jet fuel wouldve burned off in the first explosion and in the following minutes. The world trade centers were extremely fireproofed. Extremely fireproofed.

 

Actually they weren't "extremely fireproofed." Each horizontal floor beam was merely sprayed on with a fire-resistant foam/coating. I've seen that coating up close in buildings -- you can scrape it off with your fingernail. The impact and explosion of the planes hitting blew most of that coating away. Also, if the World Trade Center (WTC) were a traditional masonry building like the Empire State, it may have survived. Because those traditional buildings have steel beams encased in a thick layer of concrete. It would be nearly impossible for fire to get through the concrete to the steel core. The WTC's steel beams weren't encased in concrete, but were only coated with with fire-resistant foam. The WTC's structural design was revolutionary in not only the fact that concrete wasn't used to encase the steel skeleton, but was also revolutionary in that the major support beams were located on the OUTSIDE of the building -- you know, the area that took the main damage from the plane impact? In most buildings, the major support structure runs through the insides of the building. The inner-core that ran upthe middle of the WTC was merely a secondary support. The reason why the architects and engineers who designed the WTC chose not to use the traditional concrete-encased steel along with running the major support beams up the middle was to maximize the area of office space per floor -- each floor was almost an acre of wide open area with no support structures or heavy beams or walls -- which I might add, was perfect for a fire to engulf and spread throughout.

 

You keep telling me to look at the facts but I do. Now I'm telling you to look at the facts. Were you even aware of what makes the WTC design different from most skyscrapers? Or did you just masturbate to the drama and sensationalism of Loose Change the minute you saw it, and fell in love?

 

It's your choice to stay stubborn on the fact and believe what you may, im not even asking you to believe the US government was involved im asking you to open your eyes and understand that these builidings didnt break the laws of physics and they definitely werent collapsed by the impact of the planes. Oh yeah i meant to ask how many American flags you have on your car?

 

I have no American flags on my car. If I did, would that be a problem? Are you just another European that hates America? Is there something wrong with Irish or British people that have flags on their car?

[RAWoNe]

haha you just compared investigating 9/11 to OJ simpson, and y2k? That's quite interesting. i was wondering if you yourself have examined the blueprints for the WTC's. You will clearly notice that the support for the building comes from a core of steel trusses. here i'll make it easy for you.

[Ski Mask]

if you've read or watched anything about the trade center you would know that while it has a secondary core in the middle, a large portion of the load was carried by the exterior beams.

[Theo Huxtable.]

haha you just compared investigating 9/11 to OJ simpson, and y2k? That's quite interesting. i was wondering if you yourself have examined the blueprints for the WTC's. You will clearly notice that the support for the building comes from a core of steel trusses. here i'll make it easy for you.

 

 

Once again you misread what I wrote and failed at comprehending. Let me disect your ramblings.

 

No -- I didn't compare 9/11 to OJ Simpson and Y2K. If you read and understood, you would see that I compared your statement of "waiting" for the moment a few years from now when it would "all come out" and we would all see that Bush did 9/11. I compared you waiting for such a moment that will never happen to people that waited for Y2K or for the "real killers" in the OJ case.

 

The WTC support structure -- I NEVER said that there wasn't a steel support structure in the core. In fact, I stated that there WAS a steel support structure that ran through the core! You misread again. What I in fact did say was that the MAIN support structure was on the outside of the building, and the core steel structure was merely a secondary support. This is unlike most skyscrapers (where main support usually runs on the inside of the buildings). And you can verify this fact by looking at the blueprints and structural design of the WTC yourself.

 

Well, you just indirectly answered my earlier question -- apparently you weren't aware of the basic revolutionary structural design of the WTC.

[Theo Huxtable.]

if you've read or watched anything about the trade center you would know that while it has a secondary core in the middle, a large portion of the load was carried by the exterior beams.

 

Basically.

[Ski Mask]

I still dont get whats so unbelieveable about this to understand. plane hits tower. knocks out portion of outside and inside supports, fire ensues, additional stress on remaining supports, plus slight weaking from fire results in eventual failure, causing pancaking of the structure downwards into rubble.

[RAWoNe]

Do you usually get your news from the washington post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28318-2005Apr5.html

Also, do you read the Popular mechanics "debunking 9/11 myths" and masterbate furiously? yeah i can play your childish games too. That book which you've been indirectly quoting on purpose or not was funded by hearst publishing, do a little research into that and see where you come out. Second of all i see you failed to tackle the fact that only $500,000 were spent researching 9/11. Do you find nothing wrong with this. nothing at all? All im asking is what you seem to be too afraid to. WHY WASNT MORE TIME AND EFFORT PUT INTO RESEARCHING AND REBUILDING WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. How more plain and simple can i get to get it through your thick fuckin skull. Jesus you're thick as a rhinos skin with reluctancy. Why was it so important to have every piece of debris from those two buildings shipped overseas?

 

Another thing which most Americans seem to be doing more and more which you also did here, is trying to make 9/11 truth seekers out to be crackpots. People who believe in UFO's and people that were living in bunkers for y2k. It is this demonizing that leads most people to believe that we are not all there but in actuallity it's quite the opposite. The fact of the matter is Huxtable that people from all walks of life and mostly different professions especially within the realm of science are wondering why there hasn't been a thorough investigation by people who are outside the United states government. I'm sure that millitary officials are going to give an unbiased point of view on this because seemingly "debunking" 9/11 truth involved so many of them. Right?

 

For you to ask me if i believe in any muslim terrorist factions is once again attempting to belittle my and other 9/11 truth seekers intelligence. Of course there are extremists, there are Christian religious terrorists who kill abortion doctors too. It's besides the points. The American governments interests lie in the middle east and have for quite some time now. This duscussion seems as though it has come to a tug of war and you are going to try and discredit me and i am going to try and discredit you. Simply put you have the American government on your side which you believe to be all knowing and completely infallible correct? I have perhaps a million people who simply want to know more and will not settle for the 9/11 report because so much of it has parts that are incredibly controversial. All in all if you want to continue this discussion you can PM or email me it will be easier to send information back and forth.

 

Also, the flag comment was a little overboard, i just saw alot of very ignorant people who fit that description and couldnt back themselves up but you have your points as i have mine.

[RAWoNe]

The pancaking theory has been tested at MIT and has been completely verified as impossible due to the steel core. temperatures WERE NOT HIGH ENOUGH. i can direct you to professor jeff Kings website or you cag youtube Jeff king your choice.

[Theo Huxtable.]

I still dont get whats so unbelieveable about this to understand. plane hits tower. knocks out portion of outside and inside supports, fire ensues, additional stress on remaining supports, plus slight weaking from fire results in eventual failure, causing pancaking of the structure downwards into rubble.

 

there really isn't anything hard to understand about it.

 

it was a huge event for people to bear, and it was well-coordinated. but people are acting like this was impossible for 19 men to pull off. it wasn't really that hard. once the knowledge of flying a plane is mastered, it's pretty easy from there, especially when motivated and misguided by a very deep-seeded belief. once you control the plane, you fly it into a building. it's not rocket science.

 

there is a psychological reason which i posted a couple months ago, behind why people jump to conspiracy theories... here it is:

 

Here's a couple of captions I typed from the article, on the reason why people jump to conspiracies:

 

"Turns out, we need grand theories to make sense of grand events, or the world just seems too random."

 

I have always thought there were psychological reasons behind why people jump to conspiracy theories, but I couldn't formulate it in words, but sure enough:

 

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet the basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. 'We tend to associate major events -- a President or a princess dying -- with major causes,' says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. 'If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us.' In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting."

 

some of the greatest tragedies and events in history were precursored by one man or a small group of men's random decisions. world war i for example was set off by a single assasination by a man with his own agenda.

 

oh and raw, notice the person stating this is british -- the place where you say virtually everyone is "enlightened" and knows bush did 9/11

[Ski Mask]

Second of all i see you failed to tackle the fact that only $500,000 were spent researching 9/11. Do you find nothing wrong with this. nothing at all? All im asking is what you seem to be too afraid to. WHY WASNT MORE TIME AND EFFORT PUT INTO RESEARCHING AND REBUILDING WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. How more plain and simple can i get to get it through your thick fuckin skull. Jesus you're thick as a rhinos skin with reluctancy. Why was it so important to have every piece of debris from those two buildings shipped overseas?

 

This was a incredibly well televised disaster, that really didnt leave much unanswered from a technical standpoint. I dont see what more needs to be investigated other than a bit of technical minutae that was largely unresearchable after the rescue effort. But I am curious about where your figure comes from, whats your source?

 

Another thing which most Americans seem to be doing more and more which you also did here, is trying to make 9/11 truth seekers out to be crackpots. People who believe in UFO's and people that were living in bunkers for y2k. It is this demonizing that leads most people to believe that we are not all there but in actuallity it's quite the opposite. The fact of the matter is Huxtable that people from all walks of life and mostly different professions especially within the realm of science are wondering why there hasn't been a thorough investigation by people who are outside the United states government. I'm sure that millitary officials are going to give an unbiased point of view on this because seemingly "debunking" 9/11 truth involved so many of them. Right?

 

I think the problem here is that most of this science falls in the perview of established scientific bodies, usually government run or at least heavily government involved. I dont really know of any fully-independant agencies capable of any kind of serious investigation here. who should be looking into this? Other governments? would the results be any more respected by the people raising questions here? who in your mind would be qualified enough to research the events without bias, but with a strong enough background to do the work?

as for the conspiracy angle, the fact that you do have a number of genuine psych ward nutjobs amongst your ranks is usually what triggers those exchanges. for every logical one of you, there seems to be a few tinfoil hat wearing trollers. its hard not to get sucked into that kind of flaming.

 

For you to ask me if i believe in any muslim terrorist factions is once again attempting to belittle my and other 9/11 truth seekers intelligence. Of course there are extremists, there are Christian religious terrorists who kill abortion doctors too. It's besides the points. The American governments interests lie in the middle east and have for quite some time now. This duscussion seems as though it has come to a tug of war and you are going to try and discredit me and i am going to try and discredit you. Simply put you have the American government on your side which you believe to be all knowing and completely infallible correct? I have perhaps a million people who simply want to know more and will not settle for the 9/11 report because so much of it has parts that are incredibly controversial. All in all if you want to continue this discussion you can PM or email me it will be easier to send information back and forth.

 

see, you're using the same tactics against us again. none of us have professed undying allegiance to bush and the us government. I even took specific issue with that here before, and you still bat that back at us.

 

 

 

and as for the hearst publishing thing. Regardless of who is publishing what, the things I post here are posted because they stand up to reason. I'm not just here to spit out links to government produced research. If its crap, prove to me its crap.

[RAWoNe]

 

oh and raw, notice the person stating this is british -- the place where you say virtually everyone is "enlightened" and knows bush did 9/11

 

You see you're misunderstanding is quite immense here. First of all it's is far past a conspiracy theory as most of the main points concerning a 9/11 demoliton are factual.

Second of all never did i say everyone is enlightened, i said amajority of people believe that the US government had a complete involvement or at least knowledge of 9/11. You can quote all the internet sites you want. Until you set foot over here you would never understand. I'm sitting here as we speak watching them trash Bush on BBC, never in million years would you see this sort of thing on american mainstream media.

[RAWoNe]

alright so does this mean i would have to show up at your door with fuckin printed evidence in my ahnd because that would pose quite the problem there huxtable. I don't understand this i've read some of your other comments and threads and you seem like the kind of person who is learned and would at least read into these things a little more. How many times can i say it that the buildings were designed to withstand farmore than they did?