why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[Stereotype V.0002]

One of the recruiters Moore made an ass out of was recently killed in Iraq. Apparently Moore lied about the nature of the documentary and the recruiter was incredibly embarassed about it, he didn't want his family to see the movie. I thought it was fucked up that he made the recruiters out to be the bad guys because they got assigned a shitty job and rich kids don't join the military.

[lord_casek]

Casek, yes, there is Opium in Afghanistan, but all of the profits that are made from it in the country would not be of a substantial amount to the United States. It is also a strategic location in the ME, as was Uzbekistan which borders Afghanistan and used to be a US base even before the war, and we have numerous bases in Southwest Asia today. So I don’t think either of those are very good justifications for the US to murder 3,000 of its people, but you are welcome to believe it is. That pipeline plan fermentor mentioned would have eventually gone through anyways. It's not like the CIA couldn't have overthrown the Taliban like they have with many other governments to get any type of gain from that country without a large military invasion. Silverstein making 2 billion, when he lost a lot more money from the loss of property, is a pretty terrible example of why it must be a conspiracy. And is nothing compared to the lives lost. I need to ask you again, why would the most complicated, evil, devious, etc etc scheme in the history of humanity have such an simple and obvious flaw as an insurance policy being taken out days before?

 

there's alot more to it than insurance fraud. and no, he didn't lose more than he gained. you should check your facts.

[Stereotype V.0002]

You should read more than the prison planet articles. The insurance payoff he got was 2 billion, at the most he will eventually get 6 billion. He owns the property and he will be the one rebuilding at the area, which will cost at the very least 8 billion. If he really had prior knowledge, he would have gotten something about terrorist attacks in his insurance policy, but you still did not explain why such a complex plot would have an obvious pitfall that even petty criminals would know to avoid.

 

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_52/talkingpoint.html

[lord_casek]

8 billion is quite a bit.

 

besides, his personal moneys aren't involved in rebuilding the wtc complex. firstly, that's a govt owned area. he only leased it. secondly, i'd imagine he'll have backers financing most of it. seeing as how there will be a profit in "re-installing" businesses into the wtc's...freedom tower, whatever it's going to be called. ugh. freedom tower....that makes me feel kinda weird.

[Obvious]

refuting Loose Change's claims that the bin laden video where he confesses is fake because of his watch and ring:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SgjWGVHxW8

[fermentor666]

Alot of the stuff in 9/11 though, trying to make the connections with the Bin Laden family, and the Saudi's influence were either reaching, or just so obvious that they weren't even worth commenting. Of course the Bush's had a strong relationship with the Saudis, so has every pres since Truman!

 

 

 

They were obvious but they went unchecked in the mass press and this film came out the summer of the election. Plus, the Bush ties to the Saudis are probably closer than any president before them.

[Obvious]

I was looking through a recent issue of Time magazine today (9-11-06), and came across an interesting article called 'Why the 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away'.

 

Here's a couple of captions I typed from the article, on the reason why people jump to conspiracies:

 

"Turns out, we need grand theories to make sense of grand events, or the world just seems too random."

 

I have always thought there were psychological reasons behind why people jump to conspiracy theories, but I couldn't formulate it in words, but sure enough:

 

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet the basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. 'We tend to associate major events -- a President or a princess dying -- with major causes,' says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. 'If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us.' In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting."

[fermentor666]

I've heard that arguement before and I do agree with it to an extent. I think it gives a good, but partial, explanation to why people concoct theories that are so incredibly far-fetched, like aliens giving Hitler UFO technology. Another reason, I think, is the need to manipulate people that stems out of this feeling of being manipulated. For a guy who puts out Nazi UFO theories to get validation from his psycho thoughts would be for him to feel like he is now the one leading the path.

 

 

But, I wouldn't make those explanations a rule in proving theories incorrect. It just explains the intense conviction of the bad ones. Also, I learned to stop trusting Time's neutrality after they merged with AOL. And also because they are one of the "big five" media owners in the country.

[lord_casek]

I've heard that arguement before and I do agree with it to an extent. I think it gives a good, but partial, explanation to why people concoct theories that are so incredibly far-fetched, like aliens giving Hitler UFO technology. Another reason, I think, is the need to manipulate people that stems out of this feeling of being manipulated. For a guy who puts out Nazi UFO theories to get validation from his psycho thoughts would be for him to feel like he is now the one leading the path.

 

 

But, I wouldn't make those explanations a rule in proving theories incorrect. It just explains the intense conviction of the bad ones. Also, I learned to stop trusting Time's neutrality after they merged with AOL. And also because they are one of the "big five" media owners in the country.

 

 

the nazi's created some incredible prototypes for something we'd call ufo's today.

very interesting ideas. that's why operation paperclip came along and we got the nazi scientists. i've heard speculation by aviation experts that most of our bad ass jets came from nazi tech. neat shit. anyhow, just wanted to jump in with that tidbit of info.

 

 

i think alot of conspiracy theories we hear in this day and age are disinformation.

as fermentor did, i will use ufo's as an example:

 

it's been quite awhile since we've seen any new airplane technology. i'm totally leaving the raptor out, it sucks. it's not really a "new" design, either. the gumment (excuse the spelling, i'm being funny) has to test alot of these new jets they are having developed via skunkworks, etc. alot of the shit people see hovering, glowing, being all huge and moving slowly...what i think is "ramjets, aurora (the jet), etc" there have to be people out there discounting the photos. videos, etc.

 

some are just loons. some are believers, some are trustworthy people giving an account of something unexplainable.

 

 

p.s.: dave von kleist sucks donkey cum.

[russell jones]

I was looking through a recent issue of Time magazine today (9-11-06), and came across an interesting article called 'Why the 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away'.

 

Here's a couple of captions I typed from the article, on the reason why people jump to conspiracies:

 

"Turns out, we need grand theories to make sense of grand events, or the world just seems too random."

 

I have always thought there were psychological reasons behind why people jump to conspiracy theories, but I couldn't formulate it in words, but sure enough:

 

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet the basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. 'We tend to associate major events -- a President or a princess dying -- with major causes,' says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. 'If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us.' In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting."

 

Substitute "belief in God" for "conspiracy theory" in this passage. Works doesn't it?

[TheOh]

edit

[TheOh]

I was looking through a recent issue of Time magazine today (9-11-06), and came across an interesting article called 'Why the 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away'.

 

to me, what sticks out about that article title is the word "Won't". for some reason the mainstream media (in this case Time) has a problem with conspiracy theories in general. not good for the bottom line. what is really maddening is the media's refusal to actually do its job when questions arise. i really think the reason conspiracy theories do not go away is simply because questions still remain.

 

I have always thought there were psychological reasons behind why people jump to conspiracy theories, but I couldn't formulate it in words, but sure enough:

 

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet the basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. 'We tend to associate major events -- a President or a princess dying -- with major causes,' says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. 'If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us.' In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting."

 

ive heard this opinion before, usually from right leaning sources that seem dismissive of conspiracy off-hand. i think some theories are quite ridiculous and far-fetched. personally, i dont necessarily associate "grand disasters" with "grand conspiracy". with events such as JFK or 9/11 my only interest is to find out what is being hidden, not making the world "make sense". what unsettles me is the ability of entities like governments, corporations, etc. to kill, maim and cover-up crimes with indifference and impunity.

[lord_casek]

3.5 billion tons of building. 1.2 billion hauled off. wow. i did not realize that.

[fermentor666]

I was thinking about how I cracked a couple of 9/11 "yo momma" jokes a few days after and why I would of done that. I don't think it's because I'm heartless, because it's a tragedy and I don't find humor in that or any other event where people die. It was more of a response to the media's saturation of emotions. Every instant along the way the TV reporters--that we were all watching, all of the US--kept saying telling us that we are all "shocked, hurt, frightened, speechless", etc. I think that I was trying to swim out of that, I don't like it when people tell me how I feel and I really don't like it when they tell me how to feel, even more so when I'm being told over and over and over again.

 

I think that a lot of the conspiracy-theorist mentality comes from this disgusting, repressive, and suffocating stablization techiques that the media uses in these situations. Their game is to convince us that we all feel this one way and that we MUST keep watching because they are the cure to our feelings. Baudrillard wrote an essay on 9/11 on this subject, how the instant it happened it became attached to this mechanic, surreal media spin that left no room for anyone to understand it without television's serial, commercial format.

[lord_casek]

While you were sleeping

They came and took it all away

The lanes and the meadows

The places where you used to play

 

It was an inside job

By the well-connected

Your little protest

Summarily rejected

 

It was an inside job

Like it always is

Chalk it up to business as usual

 

While we are dreaming

This little island disappears

While you are looking the other way

Theyll take your right to own your own ideas

 

And its an inside job

Favors collected

Your trusted servants

Have left you unprotected

 

It was an inside job

Like it always is

Just chalk it up

To business as usual

 

You think that youre so smart

But you dont have a fucking clue

What those men up in the towers

Are doing to me and you

And theyll keep doin it and doin it

And doin it and doin it

And doin it and doin it

And doin it and doin it

Until we all wake up

Wake up, wake up, wake up, wake up

 

I know what Ive done wrong

I am acquainted with the night

I know how hard it is

To always walk out in the light

 

And its an inside job

To learn about forgiving

Its an inside job

To hang on to the joy of living

 

They know the road by which you came

They know your mothers maiden name

And what you had for breakfast

And what youve hidden in the mattress

 

Insect politics

Indifferent universe

Bang your head against the wall

But apathy is worse

 

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

Yeh, yeah

 

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

 

Its an inside job

Its an inside job

[russell jones]

I was thinking about how I cracked a couple of 9/11 "yo momma" jokes a few days after and why I would of done that. I don't think it's because I'm heartless, because it's a tragedy and I don't find humor in that or any other event where people die. It was more of a response to the media's saturation of emotions. Every instant along the way the TV reporters--that we were all watching, all of the US--kept saying telling us that we are all "shocked, hurt, frightened, speechless", etc. I think that I was trying to swim out of that, I don't like it when people tell me how I feel and I really don't like it when they tell me how to feel, even more so when I'm being told over and over and over again.

 

I think that a lot of the conspiracy-theorist mentality comes from this disgusting, repressive, and suffocating stablization techiques that the media uses in these situations. Their game is to convince us that we all feel this one way and that we MUST keep watching because they are the cure to our feelings. Baudrillard wrote an essay on 9/11 on this subject, how the instant it happened it became attached to this mechanic, surreal media spin that left no room for anyone to understand it without television's serial, commercial format.

 

 

 

I'm in total agreement Fermentor. How many times did I need to see the buildings blow up and why do you have to tell me how I should feel about it? Can't I figure that out for myself? I wasn't frightened to death about more attacks, I knew what it was, I think I know why, so I knew it wouldn't happen to me. When I heard the media around where I live in Toledo, Ohio trumpeting the fear card, I couldn't believe it. The terrorists don't even know or care where Toledo is!

Now we have all this money flowing around the country, for nothing, when kids in Ohio can't even afford college.

 

 

Maybe Casek should include the media companies in the conspiracy, since the increased news viewership immediately following 911 certainly didn't hurt their bottom line.

[lord_casek]

I'm in total agreement Fermentor. How many times did I need to see the buildings blow up and why do you have to tell me how I should feel about it? Can't I figure that out for myself? I wasn't frightened to death about more attacks, I knew what it was, I think I know why, so I knew it wouldn't happen to me. When I heard the media around where I live in Toledo, Ohio trumpeting the fear card, I couldn't believe it. The terrorists don't even know or care where Toledo is!

Now we have all this money flowing around the country, for nothing, when kids in Ohio can't even afford college.

 

 

Maybe Casek should include the media companies in the conspiracy, since the increased news viewership immediately following 911 certainly didn't hurt their bottom line.

 

 

 

as i've said before, there are CIA insiders in the news industry. check out who wolf blitzer really is. what he has done. it's wild.

 

you guys want to know something? i don't keep it a secret, but i certainly don't talk about it alot. i was watching fox news for about a year after september 11th. from the spring of '02 until the summer of '03. that shit had me somewhat scared and somewhat entranced.

it was all sort of surreal.

[TheOh]

casek, you got any good links regarding CIA/media ties? ive only read one really good document that broke it down at all and im sure i dont know where it is anymore.

[lord_casek]

i posted one in "who are they?"

[fermentor666]

as i've said before, there are CIA insiders in the news industry. check out who wolf blitzer really is. what he has done. it's wild.

 

 

 

 

This may be true, but for real they don't even need them. Look at Murdoch, he lays down the party line so that he'll get FCC favors in terms of ownership and leniency. He lied on his FCC application a long time ago and they gave him a pardon, it's obvious why they did it instead of putting him out of business. These guys are at the whim of the FCC in this regard.

 

They also depend 100% on advertising which only pays when they have the ratings. Making you dependant on television for your life, thoughts, and feelings is their goal. If you sat there in front of the television for 24 hours a day it wouldn't matter if you didn't buy anything because the corporations would still advertise and the networks will get money. Scare tactics and "we're all one big American melting pot community" mindfucks are the name of the game, regardless of the government.

 

The GOP propaganda stems from fear of the FCC, Clinton's telecommunications act of 1996 led us to where we are now, with two or three companies owning 98% percent of the channels on television and radio (not actual numbers, but you get the idea). And it really back-fired on him now that every channel is focusing on him "getting out of control" with a FOX News anchor instead of focusing on what he said after he called the guy out for being Murdoch's meat-puppet.

[lord_casek]

i agree fermentor, even the wiretapping shit started with clinton.

it was only recently that it came out. the nsa has had offices ni ma bell, etc for years.

i do think clinton is involved in setting something up, though. he is a trilateral, cfr, etc.

member. those guys are no joke in the power scheme. the who's who of who runs america.

[fermentor666]

Clinton did some stupid things with questionable motives but he still did a lot of good for this country and for it's international relations.

[lord_casek]

Clinton did some stupid things with questionable motives but he still did a lot of good for this country and for it's international relations.

 

 

i half liked him, half didn't.

[Obvious]

clinton was a smart man. a lot better than the current one. clinton was very articulate where as the current guy is just on some straightforward cowboy type shit

[Obvious]

as i've said before, there are CIA insiders in the news industry. check out who wolf blitzer really is. what he has done. it's wild.

 

you guys want to know something? i don't keep it a secret, but i certainly don't talk about it alot. i was watching fox news for about a year after september 11th. from the spring of '02 until the summer of '03. that shit had me somewhat scared and somewhat entranced.

it was all sort of surreal.

 

i had a similar instance. from 9/11 and the several months following i was watching/reading the news pretty much everyday. i do remember in the 2 weeks following 9/11 i was in like a trance. i just remember the u.s. being at "peace" prior to 9/11 and i thought it would be like that for quite sometime. how wrong i was. i remember them mentioning in the news in about june or july of 2001 that bin laden was planning to strike "u.s. interests." it was assumed it would be a U.S. installation in the Gulf region. after a couple months of nothing happening i figured bin laden wasn't serious.

[lord_casek]

yeah, i was watching alex jones by chance in july of '01.

he said that our govt was going to attack the wtc's and use bin laden

as a front for it. i laughed it off. it was just some guy on the internet

talking out of his ass using scare tactics and making insane predictions.

america is completely safe. our govenment would never let anything like that happen.

 

when it did, i had forgotten about him,but my frist reaction on the morning of september 11th

was "HOLY SHIT! POLICE STATE!" i even called up one of my friends and told him to come over before his class started. we watched those buildings fall. i told him to prepare for what was coming. i didn't even have an inkling of what was coming, but "police state" was in the forefront of my thoughts.

 

then i started watching the news. falling victim to what you guys were discussing. they were telling me how i felt, who i should be angry with, etc. i even started to hate anyone with dark skin. anyone. "fuck those towel heads!" i said that more than once.

 

then i started thinking about all of it. i stopped watching the fox news so much and started reading about what they were telling me. realized it was all spin. lies. etc. i honestly felt pretty crazy for some time. felt like i should be wearing the tin foil hat that people think i am wearing currently. but that's not the reality of it. i'm not too keen on the idea of losing my country. something my ancestors came to because it was a great nation and they had a chance here that they didn't have in europe. i'm not quite as insane as people peg me to be. i'm just reading the news and the documents.

[Obvious]

[russell jones]

Sexy.

[lord_casek]

jesse ventura

part 1

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_tNcsjoy0m4

 

part 2

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lHESDVIDrqI

[lord_casek]

The laughing 9-11 bombers

 

London Times / Yosri Fouda | October 1 2006

 

Comment: Karl Rove promised an October surprise and here it is on October the first. A mysteriously previously undiscovered video of Mohammed Atta reading his will at Osama's HQ before 9/11. Note that there is no sound so voice analysis is not possible.

 

Watch the video: Osama Bin Laden's HQ

 

FILM of the ringleader of the September 11 hijackers reading his “martyrdom” will inside Afghanistan at Osama Bin Laden’s headquarters has emerged five years after the Al-Qaeda outrage.

 

It is the first time that a videotape has appeared of Mohammed Atta — who flew an American Airlines plane into the north tower of the World Trade Center — at a training camp in Afghanistan. It fills in a significant gap in the timing of the build-up to the attacks on the United States.

 

Dates on the tape show Atta was filmed on January 18, 2000, together with Ziad Jarrah, the pilot of United Airlines flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania after the passengers apparently stormed the flight deck.

 

The Sunday Times has obtained a copy of the video through a previously tested channel. The tape has no soundtrack and a US source said lip readers had tried without success to decipher what was being said.

 

Despite the deadly tasks the men had been assigned, they appear in high spirits, laughing and smiling in front of the camera. Only when Atta, with an AK-47 propped on a wall beside him, reads a document marked in Arabic “the will”, does he become solemn. Both are well groomed, without the haggard appearance of the identity mugshots issued after September 11.

 

The high quality, unedited film shows Bin Laden addressing his followers at the mud-walled complex near Kandahar. One of the main figures in the September 11 plot, Ramzi Binalshibh, is identifiable in the crowd, as is a bodyguard whose task was to kill Bin Laden with two bullets to the head if he faced capture.

 

Dating on the tape indicates that the Al-Qaeda leader was filmed on January 8, 2000, 10 days before Atta and Jarrah recorded their wills.

 

American and German investigators have struggled to find evidence of Atta’s whereabouts in January 2000 after he disappeared from Hamburg. The hour-long tape places him in Afghanistan at a decisive moment in the development of the conspiracy when he was given operational command. Months later both he and Jarrah enrolled at flying schools in America.

 

Investigators have also puzzled over the fact that unlike the rest of the hijackers — most of whom were young Saudi fundamentalists — Atta and Jarrah were well educated and appeared to fit into western society while studying in Germany. The video indicates how easily they slipped from a western identity to a fundamentalist one. It also shows up the subterfuge they maintained in Germany and America that they did not know each other, all part of evading detection.

 

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2383229,00.html