why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[fermentor666]

They backtrack and backpeddle just as much as the people they want to go after by doing that, the wrong way to go about doing a documentary.

[Obvious]

dylan from loose change: "ryan got the word from his higher ups at Underwater Laboratories to certify the steel"

 

guy from popular mechanics: "in fact, Underwater Laboratories does not certify structural steel."

 

dylan: oh... uh... okay (embarrassed look on face).

[lord_casek]

i think it's a mistake to concetrate solely on loose change, terror storm, that dave von kleist documentary, etc.

 

people make those mistakes alot. following one "leader". there are truely alot of odd things that happened, and alot of witnesses who are coming forward. some of them, like major mccormick, that former bush administration guy, the general who developed reagans star wars program, etc, etc. those are reliable sources of information. high ranking officials who know what they speak of.

 

i do respect dylan, jason, etc for makign loose change and speaking out, organizing rallies, etc. but as i said earlier, that democracy now debate between the loose change guys and the popular mechanics guys was just sad. jason brought up good points, but the snicekring didn't help their argument. the popular mechanics guys were pompous, and even defamatory. comparing burmis and avery to holocaust deniers. totally underhanded type tactics. what do we have to expect these days? much more?

 

to be honest wityh you guys, after seeing that debate, i feel like dylan avery has aquired a big head. even though loose change brings up good, factual information, it leaves alot to be desired from a documentary. like i said, there are more important facts that need to be exposed or brought into the light moreso than they are now.

[lord_casek]

dylan from loose change: "ryan got the word from his higher ups at Underwater Laboratories to certify the steel"

 

guy from popular mechanics: "in fact, Underwater Laboratories does not certify structural steel."

 

dylan: oh... uh... okay (embarrassed look on face).

 

UnderWriter. and yes they do certify structural steel.

it's in their own documents. that was a big mistake on the popular mechanics

guys side for even saying that. it can be verified readily.

[lord_casek]

http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

 

http://www.ulc.ca/

[Obvious]

oh yeah. and the greasy angry dude with the alfred e. newman teeth from loose change said something about how the building that got struck second fell first was suspicious and didn't add up to weakened steel from the heat causing the collapse. he forgot to mention these three major points.

 

- the second building was struck at a faster speed than the first one. which means greater impact, larger explosion, and a more widespread fire quicker.

 

- the second building was hit at an angle, on the corner. the main explosion took place on the far east side of the building (facing towards brooklyn). as opposed to the first tower that was hit almost dead center. the fact that the corners (major support structure) of the second building were compromised and severely damaged through impact and fire is a huge difference between getting hit dead center and not having the corners hit (as on the first tower). when you see the second tower go down, notice the top part doesn't come straight down. it tilts in the direction towards the east -- in correlation with how a building would fall if it's eastern side was the weakest point. the north tower on the other hand comes straight down because it was hit directly in the center. the fact that there was this difference in the way each of the buildings came down that correlated with the position of the plane's impact on the buildings; it doesn't correlate to an internal implosion/demolition.

 

- the second building was hit much lower than the first building. meaning the damaged structure at the impact crater had to support much more weight above it.

[fermentor666]

I just read this great little article about Loose Change, here's the link and the article, but follow the link and get other links and pictures:

 

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

 

 

---------------

 

 

Did the U.S. government plan and execute the 9/11 attacks?

 

Does one internet video hold the shocking evidence?

 

What does this man...

 

 

 

...Have to do with this man?

 

 

 

Find out...

 

 

 

If you own a computer, odds are you have seen Loose Change, a slickly-produced viral internet video making the case that the U.S. government planned and executed the 9/11 attacks. No, I don't know why it's called "Loose Change."

 

If you haven't seen it yet, you will soon. The Loose Changers will make sure of it. They sell this thing like they're getting a commission. In a single day I had four different people on four different forums try to get me to watch it.

 

 

How viral videos are spread

 

And most of the people who watch it, come away convinced.

 

 

The film is a rapid-fire collection of video clips set to techno music, attempting to prove that:

 

1. No plane hit the Pentagon - it was a cruise missile;

 

2. The hijacked planes didn't bring down the World Trade Center, the buildings were wired with explosives ahead of time;

 

3. Flight 93 didn't crash in Pennsylvania and in fact landed safely elsewhere. The passengers were in on the conspiracy.

 

 

They've sold more than 100,000 copies of this thing on DVD. It's been downloaded millions of times.

 

But is it bullshit?

 

There are basically two views on the subject, and I intend to provide both equally. You can make up your own mind. One side says...

 

1. The 9/11 Conspiracy guys are liars.

 

Here's how it started.

 

There was a teenager named Dylan Avery.

 

 

According to his own site, when he was 18 he was doing construction work on a bar owned by James "Tony Soprano" Gandolfini. No, I didn't make that up.

 

 

Anyway, Avery wanted to be a movie director. At a party he seized the opportunity to buttonhole Gandolfini, and the two had this conversation:

 

Avery: Mr. Soprano! I'm a huge fan!

 

Soprano: That's great, kid.

 

(Glances at bodyguards)

 

Avery: You know, I want to be a director...

 

Soprano: Like I give a shit. The deformed kid who cleans my fuckin' gutters wants to be a director. You got an idea for a movie?

 

Avery: Well, no...

 

Soprano: Then what the fuck are you comin' up to me talkin' about bein' a director?

 

Avery: I've always wanted to-

 

Soprano: Shut up. Listen to me...

 

(Nods toward bodyguards, who approach from across the room)

 

Soprano: ...Let me tell you the problem with kids like you. You don't wanna direct. You don't wanna tell stories. You wanna be a director. You wanna walk down red carpets with a fuckin' starlet on your arm. You ain't got nothin' to say to the world. For you, the movies, the work, it's just a means to an end. Limousines and cocaine, right?

 

Avery: Yes! That sounds great!

 

Soprano: People like you are a cancer. You're the most dangerous people in the world because you'll do anything for the spotlight. You'd tattoo a Swastika on your head if you thought it would get you a movie deal. The people who make it, the people who deserve to make it, the ones who get respect... they're the ones who got something to say to the world.

 

Avery: I don't under- Ooomph! My crotch!

 

(Soprano's bodyguards deliver several vicious blows to Avery's body, then dump him into an alley).

 

 

 

That's pretty much how Avery tells the story, if you read between the lines. Dylan Avery wanted fame. Badly. How far would he go to get it? With Loose Change, we would find out.

 

He sat down and started writing a FICTIONAL SCREENPLAY about he and his buddies finding out 9/11 was a government conspiracy. Fictional. Sort of an The X-Files episode. Avery mentions this in every interview he does.

 

Since he had no money to film his own movie, he started cutting together video and photos off the internet, creatively editing them to make them scary and ominous, cutting the visuals to fit the story, making a fake documentary. Like Spinal Tap, only about mass murder.

 

So, for instance, in his screenplay, the Pentagon was hit with a missile and then was covered up for the public as a plane crash. Avery sifted through photo after photo of the Pentagon attack, all showing hunks of airplane scattered everywhere...

 

 

 

Including big pieces that have the Airline logo right on it (background)...

 

 

...And close-ups of burned-up landing gear wheels (shown side-by-side with a regular 757 wheel, for comparison).

 

 

All these pictures blink across Dylan Avery's monitor until FINALLY he finds a shot that doesn't show any wreckage. He saves it, puts it in the video, and writes voiceover that says NO PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON and NO PHOTOS SHOW ANY EVIDENCE OF A PLANE.

 

 

From Loose Change. "Where's the wreckage?!?!?"

 

Now obviously, hundreds of people were in the Pentagon that day, dozens of witnesses saw a plane crash, hundreds of people cleaned up airplane parts and charred bodies, air traffic controllers saw the plane fly in on radar, pairs of light poles more than 20 feet apart were knocked over when the massive wings of the airliner mowed them down like grass. But that's okay. He's just making a fictional movie, it's all in fun.

 

So he does the whole video like that. He cuts sound bites in half, saving the part where a flight instructor says something like, "I met the hijacker and he was a bad pilot," and deleting the part where the same guy says, "but you don't exactly have to be fucking Chuck Yeager to crash a plane into a building." Without that second part, it sounds like the guy is saying the hijacker couldn't have done the flying. He has literally edited the words to make the guy say the opposite of what he said.

 

But again, it's just fiction, a "what if" movie, a "War of the Worlds" broadcast. It was supposed to be a student film, his resume for the world, a viral video that would get his name out there. I have to admit, it was a great idea.

 

But then...

 

Conspiracy buff Phillip Jayhan ambles into Dylan's life, waving around a sweaty wad of money. Jayhan, by the way, says the world is run by a massive satanic cult that enslaves prominent politicians by delivering kidnapped boys for them to molest and then blackmailing them about it later.

 

 

World leaders gather for massive Satanic ritual

 

Okay, that's probably true. But the point is Jayhan offered to pay for Avery to get his little film off the ground. Only, the thing is, Jayhan didn't think it was fiction. Jayhan, who believed in every available conspiracy prior to 9/11, believes that the WTC planes had missiles on them that were fired at the towers and that's why they fell down. Oh, and also there were bombs in the towers. Or something.

 

Avery, realizing now that the financial future of his film and his dreams of fame and fortune lie entirely in selling Loose Change as a factual documentary, miraculously discovers that, in fact, the plot behind 9/11 is real.

 

After all, which is going to have a bigger impact on you:

 

A friend who comes to work and says, "dude, I totally sat down and wrote a ghost story last night, wanna read it?"

 

Or

 

The same friend running up in a panic and saying, "DUDE, A FUCKIN' GHOST SHOWED UP IN MY HOUSE LAST NIGHT!!!"

 

You're going to get the same story either way. But it's a much bigger impact if he presents it as fact. Now, if his goal is just to be creative, he'll have no problem admitting it's fiction and letting people criticize it as such, even if it means the work goes unnoticed. But if he's Dylan Avery, and his goal is to become famous, he'll do the one that he knows will get him noticed. From that point on, Loose Change was a "documentary."

 

And man, it got Dylan Avery hella noticed. Now, at age 22, Avery is doing four or five interviews a day with the likes of Salon and TIME magazine and dozens of talk radio shows.

 

 

He, along with friends Korey Rowe and Jason Bermas, have knocked out updated and prettier editions of Loose Change. They are the stars of a 9/11 "Truth" movement (as they call themselves), a cabal of smaller conspiracy groups, some of whom believe no planes hit the towers (they were missiles with airplane holograms around them) and others who simply believe Bush hired the hijackers to do it.

 

People have asked me, "why would he do it if he didn't believe it was true?!?!?"

 

I know why. You do, too. Why do people have blogs? Why do people line up for American Idol auditions? Why is Hollywood full of food service workers dreaming of stardom? Where do Japanese game shows get their contestants?

 

 

 

 

 

Why do I have this website?

 

Everybody wants the attention, the validation. It's just that some will do more to get it than others.

 

You see, there's a dark underside to this thing. Those conspiracy buffs who have catapulted Loose Change into stardom, you surf their sites and a similar theme comes up again and again. They'll talk of "Zionism" and the "Zionist" conspiracy. They'll talk of Jewish bankers who secretly run the world.

 

They'll talk about how maybe the Holocaust didn't happen, or wasn't such a big deal after all.

 

That's a common theme among the 9/11 conspiracy crowd. I'm not suggesting that Avery denies the Holocaust. In fact, other 9/11 "Truth" members have snidely dismissed Avery and his crew as "Holocaust promoters."

 

No, what I'm saying about Avery is that he will gladly align himself with neo-Nazis if that's what it takes to become famous.

 

For instance, Loose Change is filled with screen grabs of newspaper headlines that mention things like missing planes and bombs at the World Trade Center... but all of those shots are from the American Free Press...

 

 

...A Neo-Nazi newsletter obsessed with the Zionist takeover of the world (yes, that's DavidDuke.com on their "links" page).

 

 

Every time you see a newspaper headline in Loose Change, it's pretty much always from the American Free Press.

 

Meanwhile, I had a good chuckle the first time I saw the Loose Change end credits, where they boast research done by "Killtown."

 

 

Now, memory told me "Killtown" was a white 80's rap group...

 

 

...But a quick Google search turns up a "Killtown" who is a member of the Loose Change forums. Here we have him talking about, you guessed it, how the Holocaust was no big deal.

 

Word.

 

But hey, which of us wouldn't hitch our wagons to some neo-Nazis if it meant career advancement? That doesn't make him a bad person, does it?

 

Well, this does. Listen to Avery laughing his ass off about the hijacking victims:

 

____________________

 

(Dylan Avery, being interviewed by radio talk show host Jack Blood):

 

Avery: Ha Ha Ha Ha! Have you seen how small those things [box cutters] are? Like, if I was on a flight, with, you know, at least 50 other people – because that's the smallest number I think was on 9/11* – if I was in the cabin, with 50 other people, and five people – I don't care if they're Muslim or not – stand up with box cutters and say they're gonna hijack the plane, I'm gonna laugh in their face!

 

Blood: And these pilots, I mean, we interviewed Debra Burlingame, whose brother Chick was the one sup-posedly flying that plane that hit the Pentagon–

 

Avery: Oh, that's right! I heard about that!

 

Blood: –And of course she is a TOTAL shill for the Republican Party, she also spoke at the [Republican Na-tional] Convention. And is it ABSURD that she went on and on about how her brother was ex-military, how she knows that her brother and the other pilots fought for their lives, against these deadly terrorists–

 

Avery: Yeaaah, yeah. Whatever.

 

Blood: (mocking an Arabic accent): It is my preevilege to keel you with thees box cutter!

 

Avery: Ha ha!

 

Blood: Didn't Rumsfeld say, right after this happened, that they had actually done this with plastic knives and not box cutters?

 

Avery: Yeah, he said that in the same interview where he said that a missile hit the Pentagon.

 

Blood: OH MY GOD! HE'S GOT A PLASTIC KNIFE!

 

Avery: HAHAHA!

 

Blood: RUN!

 

Avery: HE'S GOT A BUTTER KNIFE FROM BREAKFAST! OH, NO!

 

Blood: Take the plane, sir. We don't want any trouble.

 

Avery: HE'S GOING TO SCRATCH ME A LITTLE BIT! HUH HUH!

 

Blood: UN-BELIEVABLE! Well, that's exactly what we're saying. That's an overused term, or underused term, "unbelievable."

 

Avery: (Still laughing): It's ABSOLUTELY unbelievable!

 

Blood: (doing accent again): It's un-bee-leevable!

 

Avery: What's even MORE unbelievable is how people will DEFEND this!

 

____________________

 

Or maybe you'd like to hear the guys talk about Bernard Brown.

 

First, picture Avery sitting at his computer, sorting through those Pentagon photos, all the ones showing the plane crash. Picture him writing his fictional screenplay.

 

Bernard Brown was a Pentagon employee. His 11 year-old son died on board Flight 77 (the one that hit the Pentagon). The father happened to not be at work that day, or else you could have had the horrific situation where the son would have been a hostage on the plane that, upon crashing, killed his own father. Remember this is a real, actual person, who actually lost his son.

 

Now listen to Avery say that Bernard Brown was in on the conspiracy and intentionally took a day off to "go play golf" while his own son...

 

 

...was being burned alive in a plane crash he helped plan. Playing golf, while his son dies.

 

That link was the text. Here's the audio. Dylan Avery, who knows this is fiction. Who has seen the evidence he left on the cutting room floor proving these planes were hijacked. And he accuses this grieving father of murdering his own son...

 

...Because it will help sell his movie and advance his film career.

 

Really, the whole Loose Change thing would be funny if it wasn't for the murderous lies and horrific deaths and the Nazis.

 

 

 

Members of the Jury, "The 9/11 Conspiracy guys are liars" rests its case.

 

But there is another side to this argument and they will now be heard.

[fermentor666]

2. The 9/11 Conspiracy guys are retarded.

 

 

Just as it's wrong to find complicated conspiracy where simple incompetence will explain everything, it's also wrong to presume evil motives where simple mental retardation may be the explanation.

 

Loose Change didn't invent the 9/11 conspiracy. The conspiracy theories started loooong before 9/11, because there is a core group of people out there who quite simply believe every conspiracy theory ever suspected, ever, by anybody.

 

For instance, the Loose Change guys actually guest hosted a talk radio show recently. When a caller suggested that we should be more worried about the government controlling the weather, the guys agreed that of course the government has weather control machines but this 9/11 thing is also important. Hey, why not.

 

 

Tornado fans are available at many retail outlets

 

Now, fans of this site know, I don't be trustin' me no government. I've put in time at various intelligence agencies and at one major government contractor (Kellogg, Brown & Root). I've worked for these people and let me tell you, the government is a mess. And elected officials, don't get me started on those people. They'll do anything it takes to get votes.

 

But here's the thing. The 9/11 "Truth" guys, the Loose Changers and all the many websites, they don't just think government is corrupt. They think everybody, and I mean everybody, is either evil on a demonic scale, or a mindless sheep.

 

For instance, how much money would it take to get you to kill 3,000 random, innocent Americans? Or, say you stumbled upon somebody else's plan to kill 3,000 innocent Americans. How much would it take to get you to stay silent afterward?

 

A hundred dollars? Two hundred? Two hundred fifty?

 

Well if the conspiracy guys are right, there are people reading this right now who took that deal. No kidding.

 

Here's why. The entire 9/11 "Truth" movement rests on the idea that the World Trade Center towers were rigged with explosives, a "Controlled Demolition" like you see with old buildings. That's the whole thing. They say the buildings couldn't have come down otherwise.

 

 

 

Forget the fact that no experts on the subject agree with them. That's not the point right now. We're just trying to get inside these guys' heads.

 

Now, maybe you could keep the plan itself a secret. A few dozen murderous black ops guys, demolitions experts with a grudge against the USA, maybe they've been brainwashed. Who knows. Maybe it could be done. People point out that the Manhattan Project to build the atomic bomb was kept a secret, so why not this?

 

But the cover-up. Holy shit, guys. Covering this thing up after the fact would be like trying to keep the atomic bomb a secret after Hiroshima. Just wait 'till you hear this.

 

First, picture the demolitions teams wiring up the World Trade Center towers with explosives prior to the attack. Obviously you couldn't do it during business hours, since it'd be kind of hard to explain to the 100,000 people who worked at or visited the WTC towers on any given day why you had a huge chunk of wall torn out and were wiring up a bomb on the steel beams there.

 

 

World Trade Center observation deck. Notice: people are there.

 

I mean, keep in mind, I don't know how big of a job that would be (no one has ever demolished a building that size before) but a building just half the size of one WTC tower took 4,000 separate charges to bring down. Four thousand.

 

That job took seven months of prep work... and they had the run of an abandoned building, without having to hide their work from 100,000 people every day. Our demolition crew, on the other hand, can work only at night and has to spend the last bit of every shift carefully repairing the wall and hiding any evidence of charges or detonators as not to be discovered during the day.

 

Huge teams of demolitions experts, who had no problem wiring a building full of innocent New Yorkers to explode, hired in secret, worked every night for what had to be a year (and that's only if they had a big enough crew) placing maybe 10,000 separate charges in each tower and another few thousand in WTC 7 (the smaller WTC tower that also collapsed, later in the day on 9/11).

 

And nobody notices.

 

That's right. That's the theory they're putting out there. 100,000 DVD's they've sold with this.

 

Truckloads of bombs, dozens of mysterious workers, going in and out of the building, night after night. Security at the building doesn't catch them, Port Authority Police don't catch them, random eyewitnesses who stumble across the operation and call the cops don't catch them, maintenance workers who stumble across wet paint and repaired walls and bits of strange wire don't catch them, security cameras don't catch them.

 

The bomb-sniffing dogs who were brought in from time to time (remember, these buildings were bombed by terrorists in 1993) who are trained to find even one bomb, fail to notice the 10,000 bombs lining their building.

 

 

If you're saying that nothing could possibly be more retarded than that, you're wrong.

 

No, they're just getting started. It's at this stage of the hypothetical plot when the 9/11 conspiracy guys say the real cover-up began. This is when all of the many, many people who could have blown the lid off the whole thing chose to stay silent because they were paid off by the government.

 

That includes hundreds of private researchers and government employees who prepared gigantic reports about the collapse of the towers from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

 

Also, officials in the New York City Fire Department.

 

All were written fat checks, say the conspiracy guys, to cover up the murder of 3,000 New Yorkers. Keep in mind, some of them were New Yorkers themselves - all of the FDNY guys were - and some of them had friends who died in the towers. The theory even says it was the commander of the FDNY itself who detonated one of the buildings, and therefore he was in on the decision to kill 343 of his own firefighters and 60 police officers.

 

 

For money. If that were you... how big would that check have to be? These are people he saw every day, worked with every day. He went to weddings, birthday parties, to baseball games with these guys. In the mind of the 9/11 conspiracy, he'd kill them all for a big enough pile of cash.

 

Would you?

 

There's more. We have hundreds, if not thousands, of reporters and writers who researched the collapse, including the nine reporters and dozens of experts for the huge Popular Mechanics article on the subject.

 

 

 

They were paid off, too. And paid enough to walk away from the story of a lifetime, a chance to blow the lid off the conspiracy. Paid enough to refuse a sure Pulitzer and a lifetime of fame and riches as one of history's greatest heroes. And paid in such a way that no other reporters would notice and get jealous or ask questions. These people do tend to be the curious type, you know.

 

We're getting a nice sized payroll here. Now let's add in the hundreds of people from a dozen different agencies and police departments who claim to have helped clean up flight 93 wreckage, including 300 volunteers. The conspiracy guys say there was no plane, therefore they were paid to lie, along with all of the witnesses in Pennsylvania who claim to have seen the plane go down.

 

But wait, there's more. Because there are hundreds of thousands of civil engineers and structural engineers in the world (people who are experts in what makes buildings fall down) and lots of demolitions experts. Approximately zero of them say the 9/11 attacks looked like bombed buildings. All of them either say outright that the demolition theory is asinine, or are silent in the face of what the Loose Changers say is video proof of mass murder so obvious even an uneducated jackass off the street can spot it.

 

The conspiracy guys' explanation?

 

You guessed it. They were paid to stay silent. Hey, why not? Probably half a million people there, but, you know. Since we've got the checkbook out anyway...

 

Also, think of all of the friends and family of these paid conspirators, who suddenly see all this mysterious wealth...

 

 

Artists' Rendering

 

...Wouldn't some rumors get started?

 

You've got some hypothetical professor who was about to write a paper proving the towers were demolished, suddenly coming into Powerball-sized wealth and abandoning the paper at the same time... his wife never let it slip? His kids didn't object? All his jealous colleagues who noticed the sudden new cars and new home and elaborate vacations, nobody asked questions? Nobody made an anonymous call to the IRS, just out of spite? All the bank employees who noticed thousands of mysterious deposits, all of which have to be reported to the IRS, that didn't leave a trail?

 

I mean, we're up to a sizeable portion of the US population here. Odds are you've passed some of these people on the street.

 

Today.

 

Article continues after this ad...

 

And keep in mind, this can't be chump change. Even in a world where every structural engineering desk jockey is okay with mass murder, they're still not going to risk jail and career ruin and walk away from a huge book deal for ten grand. Oh, no, it's got to be millions, per person, just to make it worth it. Even a dedicated conspirator would need to know he or she was set for life.

 

Let's say they wrote 500,000 checks (hell, you've got more than 120,000 people in the American Society of Civil Engineers alone, and they'd be the first ones to speak out). Say the average payout was ten million (barely enough to live rich the rest of your life, but let's just say). So that's 500,000 times ten million which is...

 

...Five TRILLION dollars.

 

That's about half of the value of all goods and services produced in the United States last year. Therefore the 9/11 conspiracy was, in terms of payroll, the single largest employer in the history of the world.

 

 

The board of directors of the 9/11 conspiracy

gather to await instructions (artists' rendering)

 

And here's the kicker...

 

100% of the people who were offered the deal, took it.

 

After all, we don't have a single person who has come running into the offices of the New York Times, waving a check and saying, "look! Here's a check for ten million smackers that the government gave me to be silent about 9/11! Can you believe these assholes? Now give me my book deal!"

 

Not one. Even with the lure of fame and fortune and a chance to go down in history as The Guy Who Saved American Democracy, even with the crushing guilt of seeing thousands of bodies hauled out of the rubble, even seeing the horrors of a nation turned inside out by war and paranoia that was completely manufactured as a gruesome hoax, some of these people having their own friends and families and colleagues die in the attacks, not one turned down the money... or took the money and came forward anyway.

 

And that, is the conspiracy mindset.

 

It's not a belief in corrupt leaders. Hell, we all believe in corrupt leaders. It's a belief in a corrupt everybody. It's driving around in a world where every single person you see out of your windshield is utterly bloodthirsty and amoral, all except for you and a few, brave friends. What could make you feel more important than that?

 

 

You can see the attraction right away. Most people, to feel special, have to actually do something special. But why not do what these guys do, and just make the rest of the world out to be wretched? Hell, once we've painted everyone else as mindless or murderous, all we have to do to feel superior to them is roll out of bed.

 

Remember what I said earlier about Dylan Avery and how it was probably just a desire for fame that drove him to do all this? Look at the parallel here. At the heart of all this is that basic human need to feel special somehow, twisted in the most warped and corrosive way imaginable.

 

In conclusion, the 9/11 Conspiracy Guys aren't evil and they aren't liars. They're merely filling a basic human need, using their imaginations and paranoia to elevate themselves to a level the real world will never elevate them to. Also, they're retarded.

 

The Verdict:

 

Liars? Retarded? They're probably both right. Just as the crooked televangelist steals from old widows who themselves have an honest faith in God, Dylan Avery and the Loose Change guys have made a nice name for themselves (and a nice profit) from a large group of true believers who have always lived at the fringes of society. These are the type who think the moon landing was a hoax, that Area 51 houses alien spacecraft.

 

And then you have the rank and file, the kids who watched the video and just plain didn't know any better because they didn't follow it up with any reading. They're not reading this, for instance.

 

No, they saw Loose Change and went charging into their favorite forum or chat room, screaming, "WATCH THIS BITCHWHORES LOOSE CHANGE IS GONNA CHANGE YOUR WORLD." By the time people started posting info that debunked it, it was kind of hard for them to back down without looking like an asshole. So, they stand by it.

 

So even if you strapped them down and forced them to read this, they'd just pick out one detail that they thought would give them reason to discredit the whole thing and dismiss it from their minds.

 

Article continues after this ad...

 

After all, nobody likes feeling like an asshole. But if we keep getting the real information out there, with time, the conspiracy silliness will fade away.

 

I have faith in humanity.

 

 

 

-by David Wong

 

If you have watched Loose Change you should immediately watch the rebuttal video that goes pretty much sentence-by-sentence. If you'd like to read more about the 9/11 conspiracy movement, there's lots more at Debunking911.com and Screw Loose Change, whose research I stole for this article.

 

Another must-see is the Penn & Teller's Bullshit clip on the subject.

[lord_casek]

interesting, but i'm not so sure about this guy, either. who knows?

people have agendas to fill. whether it's good intentions or otherwise.

[madsencarl]

crazy americans. blowing up their own buildings and shit.

[russell jones]

Very funny, and true. He points out the biggest problem with this conspiracy theory, and one that I challenge Casek to talk his way out of. How can you keep thousands of people quiet about this?

[lord_casek]

Very funny, and true. He points out the biggest problem with this conspiracy theory, and one that I challenge Casek to talk his way out of. How can you keep thousands of people quiet about this?

 

 

as i've said over and over and over again. i don't think it's thousands of people involved.

 

there are tons of examples i can give you where secrets as big and bigger have been kept by several hundred "officials" and their ilk.

 

for instance, the one i just mentioned on the last page. "the ringworm children"

100,000 children x-rayed to death. 35,000x the amount the human body can take. sponsored and supported by the united states government.

oh, it was for research...psssh. what the fuck ever. unjustified killing.

how about the bayer company puttnig HIV into their meds? letting tainted blood go to other countries to be used in transfusions?

or how about the 7,000 americans left on an island in wwII to die. why? for effect. to rally the americans to war. 7,000 people. american citizens. men, women, and children. blows my mind.

i can go on and on and on.

it's easy to keep a secret like killing 3,000 people. as long as you convince those involved (mainly the lower positions) that it needs to be done for a reason.

there are all sorts of reasons this was done. silverstein made a little (billions) from having his buildings wiped out of existence. they weren't up to code and scheduled for maintenance (which would be costly) anyhow.

our military got a free ticket into afghanistan. opium trade went up. skyrocketed, in fact. it's also very close to iraq, iran, syria, etc. key points for later invasions. rumsfeld, cheney, wolfowitz, poppy bush, etc. all hold stocks in various weapons manufacturers, oil companies, halliburton.....it goes on and on. there was some big money to be made. still is alot more where that came from.

there's so much to this. i can't and don't feel like typing it all out right now. tons of information, documents, people, connections, agencies.

 

i'd suggest reading the "who are they" thread. that gives insight into this, who these people are.....the cfr, tri-lateral commission, bilderbergers, etc.

i'd really check in on the cfr and their documents prior to september 11th, '01. pnac, too.

 

pnac pretty much spelled it out in '99 (cheney's proposal).

[Obvious]

those Loose Change people got owned in that debate. popular mechanics folks kept their compusure, presented the facts in a proffessional manner, and every last statement the Loose Change idiots couldn't refute. while Loose Change was angry, throwing tantrums, snickering, calling people liars, contradicting themselves, etc...

 

it's interesting how the two people from Loose Change states that they want people to go pursue the evidence for themselves -- and that's exactly what Popular Mechanics did... and "Dylan the Narrator" and Oily-Greasy-Angry-Guy aren't happy with it. basically Loose Change doesn't want you to pursue the "evidence" if the evidence contradicts their wild conspiracies.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Casek, a conspiracy this large including the people who planted the explosives, the people on the planes who supposedly weren’t killed after all, the plane that landed at some airbase and personnel involved there, people who were warned not to take planes that day, etc etc etc.. all of the angles you have listed or have been on other sites. That would need at least a thousand people. And most of the examples you posted are conspiracies that are as outlandish and unproven as this one. Extra strength Bayer AIDS, for that arthritis that’s always bugging me?

 

”it's easy to keep a secret like killing 3,000 people. as long as you convince those involved (mainly the lower positions) that it needs to be done for a reason.”

I really doubt that. The government can’t convince a handful of people that detained terrorists’ locations need to be kept hush hush, or an equally small group that the financial records of money going to Hezbollah and al Qaeda should be kept a secret. The death of 3,000 innocent American people is a lot worse.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Those reasons are really weak as justification for the government orchestrating 911..we could have easily gone into Afghanistan without 911 simply because of the USS Cole bombing or the African embassy bombings or numerous other incidences. But what is to gain for us there or Iraq? We are pouring money into Afghanistan and Iraq without making anything close to a profit. There’s no oil in Afghanistan and Iraq exports something like 10 percent of its oil or less. If all of the money made from the Opium trade went directly into our pockets we would still not have a profit. I don’t see Bush and Cheney being behind 911 to invade countries we could have anyways so their stocks could make slightly more money, most of which is irrelevant compared to their bank accounts anyway. The justification that seems the weirdest to me is that Silverstein supposedly took out an insurance policy days before the attacks, even though he also signed a 90 year lease a few months before the attack which lost him a lot of money. Even the mob knows you don’t take out a big life insurance policy right before you kill someone, it’s a little bit suspicious and doesn’t go along with the rest of such a well planned and complex plot.

[lord_casek]

those Loose Change people got owned in that debate. popular mechanics folks kept their compusure, presented the facts in a proffessional manner, and every last statement the Loose Change idiots couldn't refute. while Loose Change was angry, throwing tantrums, snickering, calling people liars, contradicting themselves, etc...

 

it's interesting how the two people from Loose Change states that they want people to go pursue the evidence for themselves -- and that's exactly what Popular Mechanics did... and "Dylan the Narrator" and Oily-Greasy-Angry-Guy aren't happy with it. basically Loose Change doesn't want you to pursue the "evidence" if the evidence contradicts their wild conspiracies.

 

 

no, the popular mechanics editor and writer did not refute every claim.

you're not versed enough to say so. you made that obvious after your first comment about underwriters laboratory, based on their comment about underwriters not certifying steel for buildings. hell, you even called it "underwater laboratories".

 

NIST has changed it's story on how building 7 fell 5 times now. the popular mechanics guys were just following NIST's lead on that. and an old story, at that. NIST now says that there could have been bombs in #7.

 

theo, it seems to me that you echo the things that you hear from republicans quite a bit. all i'm asking is for you to open your mind up a little, not so much that your brain falls out, mind you. you need to read more of the documents i post. i don't post them just to take up space, man. i've posted the NIST link a few times. i even posted their report, but i can't tell you what page number the part about unexplained sulfur deposits is on. i could have, but have forgotten. i've also posted the AJAX documents, PNAC

documents (you can still see that on the archives at PNAC.gov), etc.

take a little time and read that stuff. that's all i ask of you. i'm going to keep posting information. just read it.

 

i do agree hat dylans snickering was out of place. it made them look bad. yes, i totally agree. but we have no idea what was said before that interview took place. i don't ask you to give anyone the benefit of the doubt on that issue, but i would ask you to read the information on what was said during that interview. there are several reports brought up. i even linked you to the underwriters laboratories website after you made that foolish comment. one more time, they do certify structural steel. the popular mechanics guys were telling untruths. that should be a basis for you to go out and research everything that was said during that interview, what loose change says, what the popular mechanics article says, everything. thoroughly.

 

peace.

[lord_casek]

Casek, a conspiracy this large including the people who planted the explosives, the people on the planes who supposedly weren’t killed after all, the plane that landed at some airbase and personnel involved there, people who were warned not to take planes that day, etc etc etc.. all of the angles you have listed or have been on other sites. That would need at least a thousand people. And most of the examples you posted are conspiracies that are as outlandish and unproven as this one. Extra strength Bayer AIDS, for that arthritis that’s always bugging me?

 

”it's easy to keep a secret like killing 3,000 people. as long as you convince those involved (mainly the lower positions) that it needs to be done for a reason.”

I really doubt that. The government can’t convince a handful of people that detained terrorists’ locations need to be kept hush hush, or an equally small group that the financial records of money going to Hezbollah and al Qaeda should be kept a secret. The death of 3,000 innocent American people is a lot worse.

 

bayer and HIV.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XS3mhjt7TrY

 

 

http://www.sundayherald.com/27510

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://gk.nytimes.com/mem/gatekeeper.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26URIQ3DhttpQ3AQ2FQ2Fwww.nytimes.comQ2F2003Q2F05Q2F22Q2FbusinessQ2F22BLOO.htmlQ26OQ51Q3D_rQ513D2Q5126exQ513D1054180800Q5126enQ513D73b6365c4d82425aQ5126eiQ513D5062Q5126partnerQ513DGOOGLEQ5126orefQ513DsloginQ26OPQ3D6367d5d3Q512FQ5127(7_Q5127bmQ515CohmmVAQ5127AQ513FQ513FQ517CQ5127Q513FZQ5127AAQ5127_UofQ513C7ooQ5127AAQ513BC00s-VQ5160Q512F&OP=3b4aa885Q2FQ3AQ203wQ3AWeH3MQ3CuQ3AYHxMddWIQ3AdChH3YH3Q3CQ3A_MH3f33d3C@YHx

 

bugmenot.com to see the nytimes article

 

 

the govt can obviously convince people to shut up about a couple of billion dollars missing from the pentagon in '01. none of the other stuff is conspiracy. it's all fact, that's why i listed it.

[lord_casek]

Those reasons are really weak as justification for the government orchestrating 911..we could have easily gone into Afghanistan without 911 simply because of the USS Cole bombing or the African embassy bombings or numerous other incidences. But what is to gain for us there or Iraq? We are pouring money into Afghanistan and Iraq without making anything close to a profit. There’s no oil in Afghanistan and Iraq exports something like 10 percent of its oil or less. If all of the money made from the Opium trade went directly into our pockets we would still not have a profit. I don’t see Bush and Cheney being behind 911 to invade countries we could have anyways so their stocks could make slightly more money, most of which is irrelevant compared to their bank accounts anyway. The justification that seems the weirdest to me is that Silverstein supposedly took out an insurance policy days before the attacks, even though he also signed a 90 year lease a few months before the attack which lost him a lot of money. Even the mob knows you don’t take out a big life insurance policy right before you kill someone, it’s a little bit suspicious and doesn’t go along with the rest of such a well planned and complex plot.

 

weak, huh? ok. then. 7,000 people left to die is weak. 100,000 children murdered. weak. fine.

 

haha. there's opium in afghanistan. it's also a strategic place in the middle east.

 

 

making slightly more profit, huh? riiiiight. you keep believing that. they are making a killing. halliburton is reaping the real benefits. we're spending $4,000 a second over there.

 

silverstein took out the policy about a month before the disaster. he made a nice chunk of money.

 

 

Private businessman Larry Silverstein's $3.2 billion purchase of the World

Trade Center is finalized, giving him de facto ownership with a 99-year

lease of the building. [ireizine, 7/26/01] It is the only time the WTC has

ever changed hands. It was previously owned by the New York Port Authority,

a bi-state government agency. [iCSC, 4/27/01] After 9/11, Silverstein

attempts to get $7 billion in insurance for the 9/11 destruction of the WTC

towers. [Guardian, 10/24/01] In late 2004, he will be tentatively awarded

$2.2 billion, double what insurance companies offered to pay him. [uPI,

12/6/04] A judge also makes a ruling that keeps open the possibility he

could eventually receive as much as $6.4 billion. [Associated Press,

12/7/04]

[bionic commando..]

http://ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/new-york-defender.html

See if you guys can keep the WTC building's up!

It's fucked up, but once i started i couldn't stop....

[fermentor666]

weak, huh? ok. then. 7,000 people left to die is weak. 100,000 children murdered. weak. fine.

 

haha. there's opium in afghanistan. it's also a strategic place in the middle east.

 

 

making slightly more profit, huh? riiiiight. you keep believing that. they are making a killing. halliburton is reaping the real benefits. we're spending $4,000 a second over there.

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is, all those things you mentioned did not happen on US soil. This was 3,000 deaths on US soil in direct view of millions of people and ALL of the news media. THAT'S the kind of thing that makes it so implausible. And what about the thing the guy said about it taking 7 months to prepare a demo of a building not even the size of the WTC?

 

Plus, you said that you're "not so sure about this guy, either". This is a major problem, you could connect anyone to anyone. There was a link off that article where some guy tries to make a connection between this Dylan kid and conspirators, it's ridiculous. He thinks Dylan is in on it because he doesn't deny the Holocaust. http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

 

Look at his silly chart, these people are sick in the head:

 

 

 

 

 

There's no doubt that there are Americans that are making SHITLOADS of dollars in these two wars. Plus, taking Afghanistan allowed the construction of that huge, multination oil pipe so there is plenty reason for some corrupt people to be happy about all of this. But the most plausible and likely explanation is that they let it happen, not that they directly made it happen. I'd be willing to go so far as to say that the government let the hijackers go unchecked in the country just hoping that they'd take something out. Maybe that dumb look on Bush's face when he's reading "My Pet Goat" was from finding out how big the target that they hit actually was, maybe they were hoping they'd blow up an airport terminal or something.

 

I hate to say it because I don't like the guy, but Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11 raises the most important issues and questions and is way more relevant and important to focus on than something like Loose Change which is mostly fiction.

[fermentor666]

Not only that, but this Dylan kid would have pissed himself if someone came up to him with a boxcutter, kid looks like a douche.

[lord_casek]

first: we need to clear some things up. are you referring to that chinese guys article?

i stopped reading when it started talking about gandolfini (sp?). when it turns to a movie star and "i want to be a director" talk...my mind goes to the blank stare i get when i see paris hilton on a commercial. i start thinking about how having crabs must suck.

 

as for the connection chart...whooo....that's some fucked up shit. i'll say a few things about that. jones would be pissed off that he's connected with a few of those people. dave von kleist and joyce riley are two of the most fucked up, muppet-like people i've ever had the displeasure of listening to. webster tarpley is brilliant in some respects, jeff rense is a great thinker, he's intelligent but lets himself fall short with the whole ufo, ghost, shit. i listen to him semi-regularly to get my mind off of things. and yeah, even though my beliefs aren't the same as far as ufo's and such, i do find such things entertaining. ias for the rest on the list, i know who a few are, even listened to some speak on various subjects, but i can't connect all of them properly(as the chart maker did) in my head.

 

 

as for your views on the whole demoltions thing, i'd say it's more than likely a "strike team"

or military (esque?) demolitions team could go in with very little time and demo a building.

not to say that there wasn't planning, but i would think they could do it. i'll ask an uncle of mine who was a navy seal demolitions expert in vietnam what he thinks next time i talk to him. even though it's different, what with him being underwater demo, i'd still guess he could tell me something of use.

 

michael moore...wow. there's a name i'd rather forget. his film did raise some good questions, but in my humble opinion, not the right ones.

 

as for bush reading "my pet goat", one thing i've always wondered about that incident was this:

 

if there are multiple buildings being attacked in the u.s., and a couple of other flights that aren't exactly "on the radar" at the time bush is reading to those kids, and everyone in america knew where he was going to be that very day (it was all over the news), wouldn't the secret service have had the responsibility to rush bush out of that classroom, onto airforce one (every time i say that, i think nelly. why god? i hate nelly.) and straight to a secret bunker, or the SAC base where he is safe? maybe i'm knit-picking or whatever, but it seems like they knew that bush wasn't in any immediate danger.

[lord_casek]

Not only that, but this Dylan kid would have pissed himself if someone came up to him with a boxcutter, kid looks like a douche.

 

you know what i thought when i saw him in that interview?

 

"that guy is on some coke."

[fermentor666]

first: we need to clear some things up. are you referring to that chinese guys article?

i stopped reading when it started talking about gandolfini (sp?). when it turns to a movie star and "i want to be a director" talk...my mind goes to the blank stare i get when i see paris hilton on a commercial. i start thinking about how having crabs must suck.

 

 

 

 

Well, see, that's your problem right there, you need to read the rest of the article.

[russell jones]

The thing is, all those things you mentioned did not happen on US soil. This was 3,000 deaths on US soil in direct view of millions of people and ALL of the news media. THAT'S the kind of thing that makes it so implausible. And what about the thing the guy said about it taking 7 months to prepare a demo of a building not even the size of the WTC?

 

Plus, you said that you're "not so sure about this guy, either". This is a major problem, you could connect anyone to anyone. There was a link off that article where some guy tries to make a connection between this Dylan kid and conspirators, it's ridiculous. He thinks Dylan is in on it because he doesn't deny the Holocaust. http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

 

Look at his silly chart, these people are sick in the head:

 

 

 

 

 

There's no doubt that there are Americans that are making SHITLOADS of dollars in these two wars. Plus, taking Afghanistan allowed the construction of that huge, multination oil pipe so there is plenty reason for some corrupt people to be happy about all of this. But the most plausible and likely explanation is that they let it happen, not that they directly made it happen. I'd be willing to go so far as to say that the government let the hijackers go unchecked in the country just hoping that they'd take something out. Maybe that dumb look on Bush's face when he's reading "My Pet Goat" was from finding out how big the target that they hit actually was, maybe they were hoping they'd blow up an airport terminal or something.

 

I hate to say it because I don't like the guy, but Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11 raises the most important issues and questions and is way more relevant and important to focus on than something like Loose Change which is mostly fiction.

 

Fermentor, I agree with your criticisms, but you may want to cast the same critical eye toward's Michael Moore's movie. I thought all of Moore's other movies were excellent, and used their facts and figures well, but Farenheit 9/11 was full of unsubstantiated claims and sloppy journalism. I was very disappointed when I saw the movie, because the conclusions he was making didn't seem to add up, then I looked into it, and found out that a lot of his facts are wrong and his interpretations were off base.

 

9/11 is a very complicated issue, it seems to complicated for most people to tackle properly.

[Obvious]

Not only that, but this Dylan kid would have pissed himself if someone came up to him with a boxcutter, kid looks like a douche.

 

that dylan guy looks pretty close to how i pictured him after hearing his nasally voice on Loose Change.

[Obvious]

no, the popular mechanics editor and writer did not refute very claim.

 

That's not what I said. I said the Loose Change people couldn't refute anything Popular Mechanics said. Reading is fundamental.

 

you're not versed enough to say so. you made that obvious after your first comment about underwriters laboratory, based on their comment about underwriters not certifying steel for buildings. hell, you even called it "underwater laboratories".

 

So I got the name of the company wrong. Big deal. I guess this is your attempt to "get me back" after exposing you for saying 90% of Americans believed the government killed, when in fact the poll said 70% of Americans simply believed Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone. Sorry, but mishearing the name of a company is trivial compared to completely skewing the facts and changing an entire poll around to suit your agenda.

 

theo, it seems to me that you echo the things that you hear from republicans quite a bit.

 

Actually, I don't pay much attention to what Republicans say. The fact that my ideals and philosphies may run parrellel with others, be it republicans, democrats, or any other member of any group means nothing. I believe it's called common sense and morals. Everyone who doesn't believe there was a large conspiracy set up by the U.S. government on 9/11 to kill thousands of Americans is not a republican. Many people across different political, ethnic, cultural, and religious backgrounds don't jump to conspiracies.

[fermentor666]

Fermentor, I agree with your criticisms, but you may want to cast the same critical eye toward's Michael Moore's movie. I thought all of Moore's other movies were excellent, and used their facts and figures well, but Farenheit 9/11 was full of unsubstantiated claims and sloppy journalism. I was very disappointed when I saw the movie, because the conclusions he was making didn't seem to add up, then I looked into it, and found out that a lot of his facts are wrong and his interpretations were off base.

 

9/11 is a very complicated issue, it seems to complicated for most people to tackle properly.

 

 

 

I don't like Moore because I don't like the smarminess he brings to otherwise important topics. But I think that a lot of the core data in that movie is true, like the Carlyle group and Halliburton criticisms, the video footage of the convention for people who would be doing war-business in Iraq with the guy telling them all they'd be making a lot of money. The video of Bush saying "Some people will call you the richest people in America, I'd like to call you my base". The footage of people dying, burning, getting obliterated in Iraq. The footage of US soldiers throwing on the Ozzfest CD in the tank and the ones who got sent back home with a leg missing. The military recruiters passing over the mall in the upper-class area because they can't get the rich to join up. The stuff about how nearly all the people in the army come from lower class families. Bush cutting veterans benefits and health care and combat pay while standing on a stage in front of WWII veterans telling them he cares. Most of the stuff in that film was solid. I've seen it a number of times because I worked as a projectionist when it came out and we had it on three screens and that movie was making BANK for the the theater, I'll tell you. Biggest money-maker I'd seen there in four years.

 

What WASN'T solid was Bowling for Columbine. There was so much wrong in that film. For instance, the interview of Heston was COMPLETELY butchered up and if you look at the clock in the background you can see how the actual interview took several hours and the clips are not shown in sequence. The last scene where he's does the whole picture of the little girl on the steps was staged. Heston actually did a whole lot of good during the civil rights movement in the 60's and Moore tries to make him out to be a racist redneck.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Casek, yes, there is Opium in Afghanistan, but all of the profits that are made from it in the country would not be of a substantial amount to the United States. It is also a strategic location in the ME, as was Uzbekistan which borders Afghanistan and used to be a US base even before the war, and we have numerous bases in Southwest Asia today. So I don’t think either of those are very good justifications for the US to murder 3,000 of its people, but you are welcome to believe it is. That pipeline plan fermentor mentioned would have eventually gone through anyways. It's not like the CIA couldn't have overthrown the Taliban like they have with many other governments to get any type of gain from that country without a large military invasion. Silverstein making 2 billion, when he lost a lot more money from the loss of property, is a pretty terrible example of why it must be a conspiracy. And is nothing compared to the lives lost. I need to ask you again, why would the most complicated, evil, devious, etc etc scheme in the history of humanity have such an simple and obvious flaw as an insurance policy being taken out days before?

[russell jones]

I don't like Moore because I don't like the smarminess he brings to otherwise important topics. But I think that a lot of the core data in that movie is true, like the Carlyle group and Halliburton criticisms, the video footage of the convention for people who would be doing war-business in Iraq with the guy telling them all they'd be making a lot of money. The video of Bush saying "Some people will call you the richest people in America, I'd like to call you my base". The footage of people dying, burning, getting obliterated in Iraq. The footage of US soldiers throwing on the Ozzfest CD in the tank and the ones who got sent back home with a leg missing. The military recruiters passing over the mall in the upper-class area because they can't get the rich to join up. The stuff about how nearly all the people in the army come from lower class families. Bush cutting veterans benefits and health care and combat pay while standing on a stage in front of WWII veterans telling them he cares. Most of the stuff in that film was solid. I've seen it a number of times because I worked as a projectionist when it came out and we had it on three screens and that movie was making BANK for the the theater, I'll tell you. Biggest money-maker I'd seen there in four years.

 

What WASN'T solid was Bowling for Columbine. There was so much wrong in that film. For instance, the interview of Heston was COMPLETELY butchered up and if you look at the clock in the background you can see how the actual interview took several hours and the clips are not shown in sequence. The last scene where he's does the whole picture of the little girl on the steps was staged. Heston actually did a whole lot of good during the civil rights movement in the 60's and Moore tries to make him out to be a racist redneck.

 

 

That part of Bowling for Columbine at the end bothered me too, why does he have to be so smarmy? I guess he thought he needed a figurehead, so people in our celebrity culture could attach a face to the issue. I thought his basic thesis for Columbine, was on point though, and he used facts and figures that were solid.

 

Alot of the stuff in 9/11 though, trying to make the connections with the Bin Laden family, and the Saudi's influence were either reaching, or just so obvious that they weren't even worth commenting. Of course the Bush's had a strong relationship with the Saudis, so has every pres since Truman!

 

9/11 did have some great moments, like the one's you mentioned, where Moore shuts up and lets the soldiers and the families of the soldiers do the talking.