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christo-f

A New Middle Eastern Dynamic and the Coming of the Turks...., again

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I get it. You're completely neutral. Kinda in the same way as a CNN news anchorman.

 

You can't do it, can you? You just don't want to admit that I have actually said nothing pro-Israel and am simply viewing the matter on a strategic level. That is because you have a bias and you cannot let go of it.

 

 

 

You're very good at this, Christo. An Israeli spokesperson couldn't do it better.

 

Are we already on such a low level that you have to call me, though obfuscated, an Anti-Semite fanatic? What comes next, the good ol' Nazi?

 

And at this point, I think I'm pretty much done here. You have your mind made up and nothing anyone can say will change that because it is what you want to believe.

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Hey e2e, It'd be easier to relate to your points if you wrote your stuff in chapters in a row instead of this style you have adopted. Just a typographic thing, but very important to me.

 

I like that maritime law reply, good points.

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I've heard it suggested that there was at least one Mossad agent onboard. Any truth to this Christo?

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e2e is actually making a lot of really good points, and i don't think he is being biased either... the state of Israel and those who portray themselves as supporters of Israel through aggression and expansion have been putting Israel in more danger than assisting it for some time now. i relate it to those "patriots" that justify the invasion of foreign nations and our current foreign policy and claim they are doing it for the protection of America when in actuality they are putting us at further risk and in more danger. sure, you can discuss the strategic nature of the decisions surrounding the event, and i think it's plain to see from anyone's perspective that it was a total blunder on Israel's part, but to call someone biased for criticizing Israel when they clearly broke international law and even NATO treaties is something else. it's the same here in America when you criticize the Obama administration and you are a "racist" or whatever, when you criticize the Zionists and the current Israeli administration all of a sudden you're an anti-semite.

 

and also, christo... not for nothing, but you seem to be coming off in several of your posts like the IDF and Israel are innocent of any wrong doing. you admit it was a blunder, but attempt to portray the event as if it were simply that. it seems to me like you are claiming the IDF had no aggressive behaviour whatsoever, and the blame should be on those who were on board the vessel for initiating aggression which lead to people being killed. i think a majority of the world is at odds with your perspective of this event.

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Oh FFS guys, really.

 

These guys openly said they were going to run a military blockade, everyone knew this was their intent and it was no secret.

 

The IDF raided their boats before they hit territorial waters, probably not the best thing for them to do. But do you really think the passengers on the Mamara would have acted any differently if they were boarded in open or territorial waters? Really?!

 

Fucking ridiculous to say that I am offering any support for any side here. All I am saying is that the protesters cannot be surprised that people get shot when you attack men with guns using deadly force they knew this to be the case and that is why they did it. These guys set a trap for ISrael to over-react, that's exactly what Israel did and now Israel is in the shit. The only difference here is that Some people are acting like these guys were peaceful protestors defending their vessel against piracy. Seriously, how naive do you want to act with this?

 

From Turkey/Palestine's point of view, this was a brilliant strategic move and it worked flawlessly. From Israel's point of view, they had little choice of how to react and they chose the worst choice. Why they didn't foul the props or something such I will never know.

 

 

That's everything I've said in a nutshell but apparently I'm some how pro-Israeli. You guys seriously fuck with my head, sometimes.

 

 

Casek, I would be shocked as shit if they didn't.

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Netanyahu tells Blair he will 'loosen' Gaza blockade

 

 

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177430

 

6.3.10

 

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told former British prime minister Tony Blair Thursday that he is willing to loosen the blockade of Gaza in order to allow humanitarian aid to enter the strip.

 

Netanyahu expressed his willingness to allow ships carrying humanitarian goods to enter Gaza port after having been checked for weapons by international inspectors.

 

The prime minister's comments came as world pressure on Israel to end the blockade increases in the wake of the Gaza Flotilla Affair in which nine activists were killed Monday.

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So Jews for the rest of time will be able to point to what happened during the Holocaust in defense for any absurd aggression and behavior they take part in?

 

Pretty ridiculous.

 

If that's the case, than Palestinians should be able to do the same. Not to mention Christian's, and etc and etc.

 

Blacks should be able to just kill whites in America, because we'll we took them for slaves hundreds of years ago, and it COULD happen again.

 

This justification is rather outlandish.

 

Israel to me is the aggressor in most situations that end up with these results. I also love how all you have to do is pull the "aiding terrorist's" card and apparently everything should be kosher.

 

C'mon son.

 

 

 

HAHAH! Just amazing.

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And at this point, I think I'm pretty much done here.
Pity but no problem, mate. Hope you don't took anything personally so we might have another discussion on political events or strategy later. I always find your texts/analysis very interesting.

You have your mind made up and nothing anyone can say will change that because it is what you want to believe.

If you would come up with evidence that proves me wrong i'd accept that. This time the case is quite clear though, i would say.

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So Jews for the rest of time will be able to point to what happened during the Holocaust in defense for any absurd aggression and behavior they take part in?

 

Pretty ridiculous.

 

Yeah and some could very well argue that this mind set that is almost a political theory has done more to harm their security than create benefits. A Jewish friend of mine that I did my honours with (and who went straight from uni to work as an advisor to Prime Minister and cabinet) wrote his paper on whether the ISraeli settlements create a security buffer for Israel or are a longer term cause in instability. I never got to read it but would have been super interesting.

 

 

 

If that's the case, than Palestinians should be able to do the same. Not to mention Christian's, and etc and etc.

 

 

YEah the Armenians have a history a little bit similar with Turkey that still dominates their relations as well.....

 

 

Blacks should be able to just kill whites in America, because we'll we took them for slaves hundreds of years ago, and it COULD happen again.

 

This justification is rather outlandish.

 

For them it's not so much a justification but a lesson learned the hardest possible way and it is very strong within them because there are still people alive that were in the camps and hunted by the Nazis and they are still telling their children and grand children the stories that end with "never again".

 

I think you guys need to get this concept of "justification" out of your head. That is a concept that really doesn't fit in to the way a lot of the world works. When nations are creating policy it's the national interest that decides what they will do, not if their is justice in their actions. If law isn't on their side, they will then spend resources to either change the perception of what they are doing (for instance in the WTO, at the UN, international arbitration or through the media with public/electorate perception and that is what we see the Israelis doing now) or they will prepare for the inevitable response from the world and deal with it as best they can.

 

One great example is the second Gulf War. There was no UN backing, the legalities of the invasion were shaky at best but they invaded anyway and dealt with the consequences because (in their minds) it was in more in the national interest to break the rules than it was to follow them. It's the same as if you have a child rapist stalking your little sister. It is in your family's interest to protect your sister. Your choices are following the law (which can't do anything until he commits a crime) risking having this guy rape and kill your sister or shooting the guy yourself and dealing with the consequences as best you can. In the eyes of the law there is no justice in shooting him before he can harm your family. However it is obviously in your family's interests in not waiting until he acts before you do anything. So, you act on family interest, shoot the guy and get the best lawyer you can because it is worth it to save your sister.

 

When you're in the hot seat and you have the safety of the whole nation to make calls on, international law doesn't seem to matter as you can't take risks with the safety of 7 million people. Nations will always choose national interest regardless of what the law says is justified. The Palestinians are the same. They want to protest their interests against Israel but are vastly outsized qualitatively and quantitatively. They can either accept the law and try to defend themselves using AK-47s against F-15s and tanks or they can disregard the law and launch suicide attacks inside Israel. Of course they disregard the law because it is in their best interests to do so.

 

People and nations will most of the time only uphold the law when the cost for breaking it is higher than the gain, not because of any notion of justice. So viewing international relations from a perspective of what is and isn't justified will most of the time result in you not seeing what the actual play is and also frustrated with the result.

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Politics is a matter of interests, justice is a matter of philosophy.

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And just to add another thing, I'm just explaining things the way I see it.

 

Me explaining the situation above seems to have been misconstrued as me supporting the Israeli action (even when I have said it was a blunder fro the start). It all comes down to my claim that there were people aboard the Mavi Marmara that were there to incite a disproportionate response by the Israelis and then use the consequences against them. I say that because it is a very common tactic that is used against the Israelis and they fall in to it much of the time exactly because of the historical/cultural reasons I've described above. Secondly because my friends who work in the security field in both countries chat to me about it and third because a peaceful protest cannot include violence (especially when you are provoking arrest) and the footage clearly shows that a small number of the protestors used violence not exactly of a defensive nature.

 

That's all I say, nothing more than that. I'm never going to say anything was justified by anyone in any international relations issue because when dealing with relationships that are based on the use of power justice becomes an irrelevant concept..., and most of all because I am not a philosopher. I don't know what "right and wrong" actually is so I therefore cannot determine the justified against unjustified. I just see what is and what is not, I leave the rest for others to moralise over.

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Politics is a matter of interests, justice is a matter of philosophy.

 

For real, and understanding is being able to impartially analyse the perspectives of all stakeholders.

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Iran has announced that they will military escort any ship asking for "protection"...

 

FalloutShelterSignLarge.gif

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I can't see that anywhere, where did you see/hear this?

 

never mind, found it.

 

 

Iran sometimes talks about a limited conflict in order to bolster its deterrent capabilities like ISrael does with stuff like the 2006 war with Leb and Cast Lead in Gaza. Good time to fuck with Israel right now when they are losing friends all over the shop.

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http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/05/report-turkish-pm-may-go-to-gaza-himself/

Report: Turkish PM May Sail to Gaza Himself

Erdogan Would Bring New Flotilla, Turkish Navy With Him

by Jason Ditz, June 05, 2010

Email This | Print This | Share This | Antiwar Forum

 

Turkish officials have been suggesting that they would dispatch a military escort with future aid flotillas to the Gaza Strip in response to the massacre of aid workers on board one of their ships by Israeli commandos earlier this week. The scope of the operation was never disclosed.

Turkish PM Erdogan

 

But now it looks like this may come to fruition in the near term and in very high profile fashion, as security sources within Turkey are reporting that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is not only planning to dispatch the Navy on the next flotilla, but that he is considering accompanying them personally.

 

Israeli officials dismissed the possibility of Erdogan visiting the Gaza Strip with the flotilla, describing it as unrealistic. The United States has reportedly asked Erdogan to delay the aid operation in light of rising tensions with Israel.

 

As Turkey’s population has expressed outrage over the massacre of Turkish citizens and the government has expressed its displeasure at Israel’s attack, Israel has done a comparatively successful job in spinning Turkey as the real villain domestically, and Israeli protesters have been out in force condemning Erdogan and Turkey in general as terrorists for both dispatching aid to the besieged strip and for complaining when the aid workers were killed.

 

Israel’s formidable military has roughly the same budget as Turkey’s, but as a member in good standing of NATO Turkey could also call upon much of the international community if its Navy is attacked on such a mission, making it unlikely Israel will choose to solve an accompanied aid delivery militarily.

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GO TURKS!!! YAY MY BIG NOSE!!!

 

 

Jk.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised shit like this hasn't happened sooner. Israel has been slowly digging themselves into this spot, and now people took advantage of it.

 

Poor planning from an outdated and paranoid political model.

 

The other thing to consider regardless of the dispute between Christo and e2e is that it's the functional value that matters, not even necessarily the initial intent on either side. As turkey is playing it as a strategic move, then it doesn't matter whether they initially meant to. Purely aid workers, or strategically sent there by Turkey to provoke Israel, it matters not. It only matters that now, Israel is being exploited by other regional powers for their own power plays.

 

Israel has had this coming though... honestly. You can't constantly piss off an entire region on the basis that you have the US backing you. That shit wouldn't last forever.

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Politics is a matter of interests, justice is a matter of philosophy.

 

Word.

 

I feel you. I was just throwing my opinion out there.

 

I understand completely, still doesn't make it right. Of course that just brings us back to what I quoted from you.

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http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177710

 

Uzi Dayan, former deputy Chief of General Staff, told Army Radio Monday morning.

 

"If the Turkish prime minister joins such a flotilla,” Dayan said, “we should make clear beforehand this would be an act of war, and we would not try to take over the ship he was on, but would sink it.”

 

“If Israel doesn't make this clear beforehand, the Turks will grow increasingly self-assured, and we may indeed find ourselves facing such a scenario, which could have been averted.”

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Yeah I read that the other day and had to laugh. That was in response to a rumour that came out of Lebanon that Erdogan was going to join a vessel. Dayan responded, in all his stupefying glory and you can see how little he matters by the total lack of response from anyone else, anywhere.

 

Dayan hasn't been Dep. Cheif of Staff for a while now, he's part of the reserves command element. No one listens to him.

 

If you want to see some one a little more important that says stupid shit like this, go look at Leiberman instead.

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If you want to see some one a little more important that says stupid shit like this, go look at Leiberman instead.

 

true story

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Some HD footage smuggled out of the Israeli attack

 

Chris, if you need this ripped and uploaded, let me know.

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the thing that annoys me is if the Israelis have nothing to hide then why not allow an international commitee to investigate what happened? and why try and confiscate the footage of what happened?

 

Just stinks to me of them trying to cover everything up as per their normal agenda.

 

It is a shame the footage is quite choppy and isn't right in the action because you cannot see exactly what happens, but believe me if I were to be put in that situation (which I wouldn't ever do) I would make sure I was armed because I for one would not trust the Israeli government/military to act in a decent manner.

 

I also completely agree with Ilotsmybrain stated, the Israelis always say oh but the holocaust, I mean it was a horrendous atrocity that was commited against the jews but it does not give them any right or excuse for their loutish and bully behaviour and generally secretive manner in which they conduct themselves like they don't have to justify their actions. If they did nothing wrong then allow an international commitee to investigate their actions, by not allowing that they are just apinting themselves as being guilty.

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