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christo-f

A New Middle Eastern Dynamic and the Coming of the Turks...., again

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Said this in a convo elsewhere in regards to the Israeli action boarding the Turkish flotilla and figured it would be worth kicking off the discussion here with.

 

 

 

 

This is Turkey fucking with Israel.

 

Turkey is moving to become the new Middle Eastern pole and they are doing that by attacking Israel. Look at Erdogan's lashing out at Peres over Cast Shield for the real start of it all.

 

There were provocateurs on the vessels, soon you will see footage of soldiers fast roping down on to the boats and being immediately set upon with iron bars. The shooting didn't start until they were given no choice but to defend themselves. Israel was placed in a position where they either had to give up their control over Gaza and capitulate to Turkey or invite global condemnation and retain their hold on the area.

 

The US is being fucked with by Turkey as well. The US needs Turkey in the region to balance against Iran and to take over Iraq when the US pulls out instead of handing it to Iran. The US doesn't need Israel so much these days. That relationship is a Cold War relic and is quickly moving out of vogue. The US wants ISrael to STFU and stop developing in East Jerusalem/West Bank and stop giving the militants that reason to recruit and fight. Israel wants to retain its autonomy and not be told what to do by anyone and the left and right don't want to fall victim to the religious zealots either. So the US is already off Israel right now (remember that the last Netanyahu/Obama meeting was not a friendly one) but Bibi is headed to Wash. tomorrow and that will be a very telling meeting as to how the US is going to move forward in the region.

 

There is nothing to say that the US won't eventually dump Israel for Turkey (and even Iran). All the US needs is one power to compete with the other regional powers in order to keep their focus in the region rather than looking to spread influence abroad in a way that may fuck with US interests.

 

The only people that have an interest in seeing the Palestinian issue settled is the Palestinians and Iran. The Egyptians don't want to see Gaza as a state, the Jordanians and Syrians don't want to see the WB as a state. Israel is a country that is stuck in the coastal low lands and without the central massif (West Bank) has no strategic depth and is terribly vulnerable to attack. Iran only wants a Palestinian state so they can then use them as a tool and launching pad against Israel. Tehran only wants Israel to be castrated so Iran is then the regional power.

 

No one gives a shit about the peace process. The US is only pressuring Israel on the issue because they need Islamic support for their goals of settling Iraq and Afghanistan so they can pull out without handing either to Iran or Pakistan. Israel is quickly becoming a whipping boy for other people's agenda.

 

Don't hold your breath for a peace deal any time soon, no one even wants one. Do keep your eye out for the Turks becoming a power, though. Was only 3-4 generations ago that they were an empire....

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middle east is a fucked up region...families fought in the war.said they saw alot of fucked up shit.like fathers boiling their childrens hands and feet in boiling lye for disobeying them...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

arabs on some othershit.

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No doubt the whole "mission" was designed to provoke an isreali reaction. Their response was brutal and excessive. It will put them in the international spotlight, alienate some allies and call into question their strategies.

Turkey will be pissed. And I don't see how the US could support the action.

There's opportunity for the Palestinians to use the situation ti their advantage, but I don't think they have anyone to lead them effectively.

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There were provocateurs on the vessels, soon you will see footage of soldiers fast roping down on to the boats and being immediately set upon with iron bars. ...

 

....The shooting didn't start until they were given no choice but to defend themselves.

 

While i agree with you generally on all the strategic stuff my opinion on this one is different.

 

These were international waters. The IDF has absolutely no business boarding ships stuffed with whatever there. They behaved like pirates and got treated like such. If i had been on the ship i would have tried to throw them off the deck as well. According to Israeli spokesmen the "provocateurs" used iron clubs and fruitknives to "provoke" fully armed soldiers. Imho thats completely ridiculous, they were just defending themselves and their ship against an armed attack!

And why the dead people, a professional commando unit would have just disabled them but not fucking KILLED 19 international peace activists, ffs.

Also, on the ship were 2 German congresswomen, a British nobel peace price laureate, a prominent Swedish author and several other officials from various countries, these persons are hardly "islamist terrorists" like Israeli p-r agents claim. Wtf is wrong with the Israeli gov and the IDF, they behave like lunatics.

 

 

BTW A few months ago we had a little discussion regarding a possible Israeli strike on Iran. I mentioned 3 German-built (and payed) U-boats Dolphin Class that could operate in the Persian Gulf. You said they would not move there because they can not pass the Suez canal, if i remember correctly. Well, guess what. I just learned that these vessels are on the way to the gulf, although i'm not sure whether they'll pass through the Suez canal or choose another route. Technically, the latter is definitely not a challenge for neither the boat itself nor the crew.

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While i agree with you generally on all the strategic stuff my opinion on this one is different.

 

These were international waters. The IDF has absolutely no business boarding ships stuffed with whatever there. They behaved like pirates and got treated like such. If i had been on the ship i would have tried to throw them off the deck as well. According to Israeli spokesmen the "provocateurs" used iron clubs and fruitknives to "provoke" fully armed soldiers. Imho thats completely ridiculous, they were just defending themselves and their ship against an armed attack!

 

Oh come on dude, you've never seemed naive before. You really think these people were acting against pirate-like behaviour and just defending their ship? Why didn't the same thing happen on all boats then? The shit fight was mostly contained to one boat, why? Regardless, they would have received the same response no matter if in Israeli or International waters. That was their intent before they set off from Turkey. Secondly, Israel needed to hit at night for tactical advantage. If they'd waited till the next night the boats would have already been in port or had been off-loading to Hamas vessels for half a day. For tactical advantage it had to be done then and there and as I said before, the end result would have been no different had they done it in Israeli waters.

 

 

And why the dead people, a professional commando unit would have just disabled them but not fucking KILLED 19 international peace activists, ffs.

Having experience in matters a little similar to what happened here I would argue that your position is overly simplistic. However I would not disagree that there does seem to have been a loss of control here. But not being on the ground I cannot say as to where the blame lies for this.

 

 

 

Also, on the ship were 2 German congresswomen, a British nobel peace price laureate, a prominent Swedish author and several other officials from various countries, these persons are hardly "islamist terrorists" like Israeli p-r agents claim.

So that means that because these people seemed peaceful enough then every other person on the vessel was too? How many of these people that you mention were on the deck and wounded/killed as opposed to staying below deck and remaining calm? That is not a rhetorical question.

 

 

BTW A few months ago we had a little discussion regarding a possible Israeli strike on Iran. I mentioned 3 German-built (and payed) U-boats Dolphin Class that could operate in the Persian Gulf. You said they would not move there because they can not pass the Suez canal, if i remember correctly. Well, guess what. I just learned that these vessels are on the way to the gulf, although i'm not sure whether they'll pass through the Suez canal or choose another route. Technically, the latter is definitely not a challenge for neither the boat itself nor the crew.

 

I remember that we discussed it and I am also aware that these vessels are said to be moving to the PG. Would be better to continue that convo in the same vicinity as previously held so we can assess what has been said and continue on from there.

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This is one of the gentlemen that was "just guarding their ship from armed attack".

 

I am lead to believe that he is from Yemen.

1_hh.jpg.caafad7d60dc3e13b97fbb70ebb457c1.jpg

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yeah, that interested me too.

 

Bibi would love a friendly and welcoming chat with Obama right now more than ever. The handshaking photos and wonderful words in a post-discussion press conference would be a huge show of support for Israel. That meeting was planned to try and wash away the aftermath of Israel announcing the construction in East Jerusalem during Biden's visit and the ensuing (lack of) welcome that Bibi received at the White House when he visited last time.

 

At first it was announced that the trip had been cancelled and that he would return to Israel. Then it was on again (I'd say that a rethink made them decide that they would try for US support) and then another subsequent cancellation. That final cancellation makes me think that they were told "Don't even think of coming here right now, U is teh lep3rZ!!1!".

 

Also take note of what just happened in NY at the UN. The UNSC made a statement condemning the acts that resulted in deaths, called for an impartial investigation and for the vessels and people to be released immediately.

 

That means the US didn't block this or even insert that there be an explanation from anyone else that is usually called for to balance the issue. That would be like Churchill asking for a full investigation from FDR after Pearl Harbour was hit. Allies back allies regardless of who was in the right or the wrong.

 

This is how the Turkish/Palestinian wedge between Israel and the US works.

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Oh come on dude, you've never seemed naive before.

I hope that hasn't changed.

 

You really think these people were acting against pirate-like behaviour and just defending their ship?

I think that the majority of the passengers were peace activists from various countries who got angry that their ship got assaulted in international waters. There might have been some turk provocateurs on board - if so, the most dangerous weapons they had were iron clubs, knives and tools from the machinery room - by all means def. NOT a valid reason for a pro commando to kill at least 10 and injure 60 others, even at night.

 

How many of these people that you mention were on the deck and wounded/killed as opposed to staying below deck and remaining calm? That is not a rhetorical question.

 

The reason why i mentioned the celebs on board: the flotilla was declared as food, medicals etc. transporter beforehand and the IDF staff certainly knew that there would be 2 German congresswoman, Henning Mankell plus a Nobel laureate on board. This alone should have been a reason for the IDF to let the flotilla pass the blockade for once even IF some provocateurs and weapons (imho HIGHLY unlikely in this case) were hidden on it. This way Israel would have avoided an open diplomatic row with Turkey and the UN and scored positive p-r points within the western public, media and peace movement because they allowed to help Palestinian civilians. But no, they had to board those aid ships in international waters and act like fucking Rambos.

 

That means the US didn't block this or even insert that there be an explanation

Turkey had pressed for international led investigations in the security council. The U.S. watered it down to an "impartial inquiry" (note the absence of the word "international").

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I think that the majority of the passengers were peace activists from various countries who got angry that their ship got assaulted in international waters. There might have been some turk provocateurs on board - if so, the most dangerous weapons they had were iron clubs, knives and tools from the machinery room - by all means def. NOT a valid reason for a pro commando to kill at least 10 and injure 60 others, even at night.

 

Mate, iron bars, clubs and knives are still deadly weapons. Just because you have more efficient weapons than your enemy doesn't mean you're going to allow him to beat you to death or cut your head off. I can tell you straight up that the Mamara had people on board who's mission it was to provoke an incident and draw Israel in to the trap of over-reaction. Stupidly, Israel did just that. I also won't defend the IDF as I do not know exactly what occurred bar the footage that I have seen. however what I have seen is soldiers roping on to a boat and being hit with iron bars and knives whilst their weapons were not yet in their hands. Why was it that the violence was not replicated on the other boats? I'd suggest because there were people aboard the Mamara aiming to cause violent confrontation. If not you would expect the violence to have been replicated on the other vessels.

 

In the text books and historical writings of guerilla war (Mao, Che, etc.) it is a constant that the smaller/guerilla force baits the larger conventional force in to disproportionate responses that elicit sympathy from the general community. This is to promote financial, tactical and moral support from the civilian populace or in the least, sympathy for your cause. The Palestinians have been playing this violin for years and the Israelis have continuously danced along to its tune. Hasn't really changed much but that's the play here. And in this example, the results are pretty obvious.

 

Just to be sure, I'm not supporting the ISraeli action or position, just as I do not support the Palestinian/Turkish. I'm just calling it how I see it.

 

 

The reason why i mentioned the celebs on board: the flotilla was declared as food, medicals etc. transporter beforehand and the IDF staff certainly knew that there would be 2 German congresswoman, Henning Mankell plus a Nobel laureate on board. This alone should have been a reason for the IDF to let the flotilla pass the blockade for once even IF some provocateurs and weapons (imho HIGHLY unlikely in this case) were hidden on it. This way Israel would have avoided an open diplomatic row with Turkey and the UN and scored positive p-r points within the western public, media and peace movement because they allowed to help Palestinian civilians. But no, they had to board those aid ships in international waters and act like fucking Rambos.

 

But that completely ignores Israel's strategic position. Regardless of whether Israel has provoked it and who the holy land belongs to, Israel is constantly attacked from within the Gazan border (rocket last night, two gunmen today and years of suicide bombs) and Gazans are attacked by Israelis. Now, remember, we are not talking about right or wrong or cause and effect. We are talking about the current situation of deadly attacks on sovereign territory, from both sides. So it's a low level conflict situation and Israel has a responsibility to protect its people and part of that logical process is blockading the coastal approach that Iran, Syria and other sympathetic elements have tried and succeeded in shipping weapons that are then used against Israeli interests.

 

Israel has a duty to its citizens to blockade the coast in an attempt to deny the Palestinians access to weapons just the same as any country at war with another will try and blockade their enemy. If Israel let these boats through the blockade is dropped. Firstly because Israel cannot take the risk that the declaration of the shipment being only food was honest and that the European MPs had the training and experience to act as customs and intelligence agents and know exactly what is and isn't aboard that vessel. It's obvious that they are already sympathetic to your enemy, how could you then go and trust their judgement and word on the risk of national security??!!

 

Secondly, they let these boats through and next month there will be thirty. I don't think I need to explain how this would constitute loss of control and a massive threat to Israel's national security.

 

 

 

Turkey had pressed for international led investigations in the security council. The U.S. watered it down to an "impartial inquiry" (note the absence of the word "international").

 

Yeah, I don't doubt that but the fact that it passed is already significant and uncommon for the US on matters concerning ISrael. Also, the call for an international investigation is an attempt to force Israel's back further against the wall. There is no way that any country will allow foreigners to conduct an investigation on the intelligence, special forces operations and overall matters of national security. It was obviously never going to happen, no country would accept that and Turkey is leveraging everything it can, as any other country in its position would.

 

 

This is all a test of wills between two regional competitors. Whoever slips up will lose. As it stands right now Israel was caught slipping by Turkey/Palestine on this one.

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The whole ordeal was either fucked up or fucked up, yet they still try to play it off like they had no other choice and what they did wasn't a total mess. I mean I really really fucking wonder what their original objective was.

 

 

"GET THROWN IN THE SEA, GET OVERTAKEN BY CIVILIANS, OPEN FIRE"

 

or

 

"CREATE DIPLOMATIC SCANDAL"

 

or

 

"JUMP IN THE MIDDLE OF WELL ORGANIZED, PREDICTABLE CIVILIANS WITH RIFLES, DONT SHOOT ANYONE, DONT LOSE RIFLE"

 

or

 

"JUMP IN THE MIDDLE OF CHEESEBOLLAH WITH RIFLES, DONT LOSE RIFLE"

 

or

 

"JUMP IN THE MIDDLE OF CHEESEBOLLAH, GET BEAT UP, THROWN IN THE SEA, LOSE RIFLE, TRY TO GET THE WHOLE TEAM SHOT AND/OR STABBED"

 

 

Possibilities are endless and I'm getting confused by my own sarcasm.

But if my son, friend or relative was one of those troops I'd be pretty fucking angry at whoever ordered that "operation"

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If Israel sucks at one thing more than anything else its propaganda and not walking into political traps. I know someone who is a part of the Foreign Ministry and he feels powerless at times.

 

This was a set up from the beginning. Israel offered to allow the ships through a different port and delivered the aid, which they did. The last ship was clearly meant to draw political reproach. Israel definitely knew this too but didn't prepare properly for the event or fallout.

 

I think there is a very low opinion of the USA in Israel right now both with officials and civilians. It's ironic that the only people who supported Israel's move was Cyprus.

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While I agree with almost everything Christo says, it is clear that Israel is ran by a bunch of idiots who seem to have no idea how to improve the world's opinion of their country.

 

The action that Israel took was, as normal, completely over the top and completely dispropotionate. I cannot agree with the action that Israel takes in pretty much any instance, due to their complete inability to accept blame, or even tell the truth about a situation.

 

Personally I feel that Israel is now on borrowed time, they don't have as much support from the west that they have always had, and things will get more difficult for them I feel.

 

Plus I cannot stand the way that Israel treats the palestinians, so what if they fire rockets into Israel, they knock peoples homes down, rehouse them in slums, cut off their means of living, anyone in that situation would fight back against the people oppressing them, because that is all that Israel do.

 

You would think that as a people that have suffered a lot through history that Israel would have some compasion, but they seem to be the most heartless bastards there are (the government not the people, it isn't the peoples fault they voted scum into power)

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Mate, iron bars, clubs and knives are still deadly weapons.

Guns, tasers, grenades aren't?

Just because you have more efficient weapons than your enemy doesn't mean you're going to allow him to beat you to death or cut your head off.

Just because you have inferior weapons than an attacking pirate doesn't mean you're going to allow him to kill you and capture your ship.

I can tell you straight up that the Mamara had people on board who's mission it was to provoke an incident and draw Israel in to the trap of over-reaction.

Would be nice if you could provide a source on that, if you are allowed to. As long as you cannot i have all right to call bullshit.

however what I have seen is soldiers roping on to a boat and being hit with iron bars and knives whilst their weapons were not yet in their hands.

What iv'e seen so far is soldiers roping on several boats in international waters and behaving like pirates.

Why was it that the violence was not replicated on the other boats? I'd suggest because there were people aboard the Mamara aiming to cause violent confrontation. If not you would expect the violence to have been replicated on the other vessels.

Well, it was. Except that only the IDF committed violence on the other vessels.

from guardian.co.uk:

 

Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, told reporters: "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat. They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

 

Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."

 

smaller/guerilla force baits the larger conventional force in to disproportionate responses that elicit sympathy from the general community. This is to promote financial, tactical and moral support from the civilian populace or in the least, sympathy for your cause.

An inferior army in terms of numbers and technology has no alternative. That neutral obversers may side with the underdogs is a small strategic/psychologic advantage that comes automatically with being an underdog.

And in this example, the results are pretty obvious.

In this example, nothing is obvious so far.

Just to be sure, I'm not supporting the ISraeli action or position, just as I do not support the Palestinian/Turkish. I'm just calling it how I see it.

Well then you see that incident just like the Israeli gov and their spin doctors, it seems. You even had to post some Yemenite who holds up his traditional dagger in order to make the peace activists look like islamist fanatics.

 

here are some westerners that were also on one of the boats (probably alongside that Yemenite):

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Before you ask:

I support neither side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - to successfully argument for one side i lack the required deeper knowledge on the history of the conflict. Also, i have never been in the region. So, if you plan to broaden the discussion towards that whole conflict i'll pass.

My main problem with the current incident is that the IDF attacked the ships in international waters and therefore demonstrated that they don't give a shit about international conventions. If every country would act like that the world would already be a nuclear wasteland.

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If Israel sucks at one thing more than anything else its propaganda

Nah. Israel's propaganda machine is one of the best if not the world's most efficient.

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Also, the call for an international investigation is an attempt to force Israel's back further against the wall. There is no way that any country will allow foreigners to conduct an investigation on the intelligence, special forces operations and overall matters of national security. It was obviously never going to happen, no country would accept that and Turkey is leveraging everything it can, as any other country in its position would.

Agree completely, i just wanted to highlight that the U.S. still supports Israel.

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While I agree with almost everything Christo says, it is clear that Israel is ran by a bunch of idiots who seem to have no idea how to improve the world's opinion of their country.

 

The action that Israel took was, as normal, completely over the top and completely dispropotionate. I cannot agree with the action that Israel takes in pretty much any instance, due to their complete inability to accept blame, or even tell the truth about a situation.

 

They prepared for a non-lethal engagement and were greeted with pipes and knives, that's why shit popped off. And this disproportionate argument is so played, if someone tries to kill you with sticks and you have a gun are you really going to put it down and grab a stick?

 

Personally I feel that Israel is now on borrowed time, they don't have as much support from the west that they have always had, and things will get more difficult for them I feel.

 

They definitely aren't operating on borrowed time and don't make the same mistake most do; Israel isn't solely reliant on the west for money or support.

 

Plus I cannot stand the way that Israel treats the palestinians, so what if they fire rockets into Israel, they knock peoples homes down, rehouse them in slums, cut off their means of living, anyone in that situation would fight back against the people oppressing them, because that is all that Israel do.

The fighting and hatred towards Israel has been around since the 1880's when the idea was first on the table. When Israel entered Gaza they did what they felt was necessary to cripple the Hamas aggressors, its very hard to comprehend fighting a force that enlists civilians and operates out of homes and schools.

 

You would think that as a people that have suffered a lot through history that Israel would have some compasion, but they seem to be the most heartless bastards there are (the government not the people, it isn't the peoples fault they voted scum into power)

That's hardly true, Israel has proposed all sorts of peaceful solutions and have been rejected and burned repeatedly. The Arabs are signaling, some more overtly than others (*cough cough Iran*), that they want Israel to die and not make peace.

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Nah. Israel's propaganda machine is one of the best if not the world's most efficient.

 

LOL. You've got to be kidding me.

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It must be really subtle because all I see is hatred towards the country.

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I think it is more the propaganda the government feeds it's own people, one of my main issues with the whole situation is the vast majority of the world see what Israel is doing, and believe it is wrong, yet the Israeli people seem to be feed lies by their government that means the Israelis almost blindly support their own government.

 

I know it is a wide generalisation as I have witnessed Israelis speaking out against the governments actions, but the vast majority of them have left Israel.

 

Also you have Mossad killing people in different countries, falsifying peoples passports and generally acting shady as hell, the world knows they are doing it but the Israeli government completely denies it which is such obvious bullshit.

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The vast majority of the world doesn't have a clue whats going on in Israel since there is very little objective journalism about the Middle East and the most critical people on Israel are the Israelis. What Israel's doing in their own country really boils down to who you believe is right. In my opinion if you think anyone is right youre misinformed.

 

The Mossad is no different from any other intelligence agency, even the UK admitted it after dubai, they just happened to get caught.

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As he should. Don't you love your homeland?

 

(this isn't to say he's right and anyone else is wrong or vice versa)

 

 

 

Mar: Do you use this?

http://giyus.org/

 

It's part of the Israeli propaganda machine. They

enlisted over 20,000 people the other night to go

to blogs, etc and propagandize Israel's actions.

 

 

I do not condone the actions of Israel the other day. I think

it was brazen and very dumb. They should have thought that

operation through a little more (while scanning this page I think

I saw similar views).

 

6Mm0d.png

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