mamerro was right: news from venezuela

[WORDISM45]

or they will use our little black boxes to "elect" him

yay democracy.

 

nah the Australian electoral process isn't rigged fortunately

[El Mamerro]

 

And Mamerro lets face it your sources of a bunch of people who emigrated from the country (obviously because they didn;t like it all that much to begin with or they would have stayed) isn't all that much a more bi-partisan source than Juan's pro-Chavez websites.

 

I expected such broad generalizations from Juan, but not from you, yum. If I find a good business or family opportunity on another country and decide to move there, does that mean I don't like Puerto Rico very much? Such a fucking dumb statement, I honestly can't believe you just wrote that with a straight face.

 

These are people who have been here for years, way before the political unrest began to stir, who proudly display their flag and color whenever they can, who follow every football game their national team plays, and who will stop at nothing to tell you how beautiful it is over there. And second, you seem to all be ignoring the fact that the experiences I am talking about are not these people's personal experiences, but those of their FAMILIES who are still in Venezuela, love Venezuela, are NOT in the upper echelon of people living in mansions on the hill, who are terribly concerned with what's happening to their country. There's maaaaaaaaany people like this, up to half the entire country, it isn't a small batch of elite like you are all so quick to swallow up cause it gives you a nice and tidy answer to pick a side.

 

Is Chavez doing a lot of good things for Venezuela? Of course he is. Is it coming at the expense of people's ability to decide and govern themselves in the future? Absolutely. By the time the 80 year-old grandma from the slums is educated enough to realize this, she will be powerless to do anything about it.

 

I'm just gonna gracefully bow out of this discussion cause I am obviously no match for a squad of internet experts who have done "viewing and reading extensive media" on the subject.

[El Jefe Uno]

I don't think I'm educated enough on the subject to say a whole lot, but I do want to say something on this argument. Instead of making assumptions and saying that the people who emigrated to Puerto Rico that Mams knows hate Chavez and are cowards, etc.. Can't we make the assumption that not everyone is pro-Chavez or anti-Chavez simply based on their class? I'm sure among every class there are different opinions and different extremes. Does everyone that's lower class in America hate Bush? No.. unfortunately.. Does everyone that's upper class love Bush? No

 

I'm over tired and maybe not as articulate as I could be, but I hope my point gets across..

[Qawee]

I don't like Chavez that much, but I think that the regular working people have made some huge gains in Venezuela since he has been president, not because of him, but because of their own actions, he just made it easier with his "i'm here to help the poor rhetoric"

[lord_casek]

i knew mams would be all up on this subject.

i think i argued with him about it a few times.

 

anyway, i'm of the opinion this is neither good or bad until

we are all able to see the outcome.

 

may be weeks, may be months, may be years. we just have to

watch chavez and his actions closely.

[MayorMeanBeans]

fuentes et al. could you chavistas point me towards some QUALITY (that is, an academically accredited source) literature extolling the virtues of the Bolivarian revolution?

 

Ideologically, it makes sense and has some sexy sidenotes. ie. throwing off the chains of imperialism your typical modern marxism all that.

 

again though, im under the impression that all these slogans aren't supported by fact, they're only hiding the fact. for example:

 

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1913

 

"All this the anti-chavistas must surely know. Other things they scarcely seem to notice. Their personal hatred of the man bears all the hallmarks of the ancestral racism that still infests Creole (white) dynastic oligarchies right across Latin America. For Chávez is, like most Venezuelans, a zambo, a man of mixed race. As a result, he is viewed with contempt by those who harbour the conviction that ‘their’ country has been stolen from them – and mean to get it back."

 

WHAT THE FUCK? i don't think theres any person in the world that wouldn't be pissed if their shit got vicked. if you're mad at someone stealing your stuff (or liberating, so my language isn't biased for all you 'marxists' out there), it doesn't mean your racist.

 

I don't want to make it look like I'm taking one statement to shit on a movement cuz im not. But like i said, on the internet ideology often = fact. this website passes off American complicity as empirical. THat's not true. I'm not denying it, but it's not a slam dunk, there's no hot document etc.

 

Also, as food for further thought, Chavistas I want to know- When Oil prices come back down again (they will), how is Chavez expecting to keep his programs going? i've been crunching some numbers from the world bank, and i'm going to try to remove Oil as a part of GDP, and then well see how well this govt is really doing...

[MayorMeanBeans]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0221/p07s02-woam.html this article is pretty good at describing my understanding of the situation. When a doctor resigns from his post because of the lack of help for poor, that's not cuz hes an anti-revolutionary. its cuz hes lost faith in Chavez.

 

an excerpt:

 

In November, cardiologist Juan Carlos De Gouveia resigned from Miguel Perez Carreño hospital, one of Venezuela's largest public hospitals. Dr. De Gouveia was raised in a poor Caracas neighborhood and spent decades serving poor Venezuelans. In his resignation letter, he described interminable battles with hospital administrators to obtain basic supplies such as sterilization equipment.

At another Caracas hospital four patients died in one night last August after its oxygen supplies ran out. This month the Venezuelan Medical Society suspended all elective procedures there, saying conditions had still not improved.

Meanwhile, the government here announced recently that it will help over 50 African countries combat malaria, even though the number of malaria cases in Venezuela in 2004 was the second highest since 1937 and twice that of when Chávez took office.

Marcial Bastitas, who lives in a poor section of Caracas, is also frustrated. Surrounded by six Chavista friends, he says that "we should take care of our problems first." They nod in agreement.

Venezuela also faces a public housing shortage. According to figures from the Venezuela Chamber of Housing, less than 30,000 homes were built in 2005 out of the 120,000 promised by Chávez.

Many of Venezuela's roads are also deteriorating. Last month the highway connecting the capital Caracas with its international airport and second largest port was closed indefinitely due to a collapsing bridge. The closure of this major artery impacts 35 percent of the country's commerce according to Veneconomia, a leading business research publication.

[WORDISM45]

I expected such broad generalizations from Juan, but not from you, yum. If I find a good business or family opportunity on another country and decide to move there, does that mean I don't like Puerto Rico very much? Such a fucking dumb statement, I honestly can't believe you just wrote that with a straight face.

 

These are people who have been here for years, way before the political unrest began to stir, who proudly display their flag and color whenever they can, who follow every football game their national team plays, and who will stop at nothing to tell you how beautiful it is over there. And second, you seem to all be ignoring the fact that the experiences I am talking about are not these people's personal experiences, but those of their FAMILIES who are still in Venezuela, love Venezuela, are NOT in the upper echelon of people living in mansions on the hill, who are terribly concerned with what's happening to their country. There's maaaaaaaaany people like this, up to half the entire country, it isn't a small batch of elite like you are all so quick to swallow up cause it gives you a nice and tidy answer to pick a side.

 

Is Chavez doing a lot of good things for Venezuela? Of course he is. Is it coming at the expense of people's ability to decide and govern themselves in the future? Absolutely. By the time the 80 year-old grandma from the slums is educated enough to realize this, she will be powerless to do anything about it.

 

I'm just gonna gracefully bow out of this discussion cause I am obviously no match for a squad of internet experts who have done "viewing and reading extensive media" on the subject.

yeah you're right it was wrong of me to assume they left venezuela post-Chavez but i still disagree that having a few Venezuelans opinions on the matter is a substantial unbiased source. Don't bow out just provide some proper references and information supporting your side of the argument, i'd honestly be really interested to see some concrete stuff on CHavez oppressing people.

[WORDISM45]

Mayor Menino if oil prices ever go down again it will be a very temporary thing. It goes against all laws of economics to suggest that a finite resource upon which 99.999% of world commerce is reliant upon should go down in price, especially as the realization that we are on the downside of Hubert's peak spreads. Demand continues to grow every day (especially in China and India) and no significant oil drilling ventures have bolstered supply.

 

on to your excerpt. I'm not arguing that Venezuela is now a paradise in which everything works perfectly and there is no dissatisfaction. Wow a doctor resigned because of poor working conditions, that happens over here in Australia all the time, its when a whole heap of doctors are doing it that you worry about it not one, it's not even newsworthy. It's a wise decision to suspend elective procedures when Venezuela is still a poor country with limited infrastructure, it allows the hospitals to focus on essential procedures. I agree that they should be focusing on their own country before others but it's just a political stunt and CHavez like all fuckwit politicians loves thigns of thta nature. And the last 2 sentences are unfortunate but are you gonig to blame the CHaves government for a bridge that collapsed?

[Juan Fuentes]

fuentes et al. could you chavistas point me towards some QUALITY (that is, an academically accredited source) literature extolling the virtues of the Bolivarian revolution?

 

I'm not a chavista i am a submitter to God alone, or "muslim" in arabic.

there is a book by eva golinger, called the "chavez code"

eva recently interviewed noam chomsky about the bolivarian revolution, go find the video online, i forgot where is it.

 

Ideologically, it makes sense and has some sexy sidenotes. ie. throwing off the chains of imperialism your typical modern marxism all that.

 

again though, im under the impression that all these slogans aren't supported by fact, they're only hiding the fact. for example:

 

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1913

 

"All this the anti-chavistas must surely know. Other things they scarcely seem to notice. Their personal hatred of the man bears all the hallmarks of the ancestral racism that still infests Creole (white) dynastic oligarchies right across Latin America. For Chávez is, like most Venezuelans, a zambo, a man of mixed race. As a result, he is viewed with contempt by those who harbour the conviction that ‘their’ country has been stolen from them – and mean to get it back."

 

WHAT THE FUCK? i don't think theres any person in the world that wouldn't be pissed if their shit got vicked. if you're mad at someone stealing your stuff (or liberating, so my language isn't biased for all you 'marxists' out there), it doesn't mean your racist.

 

have you lived in latin america? i guess no. you dont understand the racism and the levels of racism in SA.

in SA "indio" (indigenous, or indian, the natives) is a term is used to call anyone who does something uncivilized, or any one of dark skin. it is a shame to be an indio in SA, and they get discriminated like trash.

the white people of SA and also latin america, has followed the tradition of the colonization because of their skin color similitude.

 

the history books written about columbus coming to america making it all seem a cartoon about the three ships, and that they "traded" with the indians was a trick from the same empire that today controls the oligarchy of SA. hiding, the massacre from history.

the new books chavez people is putting out, has the true truth of what happened. teaching kids to never trust the empires that come to settle at your land.

 

chavez has made people think and realize how racists we all were. i even realize how racist i was, because i was brought up in that atmosphere of racism, and although i controlled myself i was never going to defend or correct someone when discriminating a native south american.

 

no other presidents have ever helped and made people respect the indigenous people of SA more than chavez and his crew, which is morales from bolivia, correa from ecuador, and ortega from nicaragua.

 

I don't want to make it look like I'm taking one statement to shit on a movement cuz im not. But like i said, on the internet ideology often = fact. this website passes off American complicity as empirical. THat's not true. I'm not denying it, but it's not a slam dunk, there's no hot document etc.

 

american people and the CIA/military industrial complex/zionists/globalists are not the same.

no hot document? check out some declassified CIA documents, tell me if they dont seem empirical.

 

Also, as food for further thought, Chavistas I want to know- When Oil prices come back down again (they will), how is Chavez expecting to keep his programs going? i've been crunching some numbers from the world bank, and i'm going to try to remove Oil as a part of GDP, and then well see how well this govt is really doing...

 

you ask about the oil industry like regular people was going to know how a company is going to deal with their problems... all i know is that venezuela is hurrying up on extracting all the oil possible and selling it quick because they know in 20 years oil as energy would not be used as widely as it is used now.

with that oil money make the many industries they are building now and advance in the field of agriculture.

you can be so stupid to only depend on oil, or pessimistic enough to say "what if you didnt have oil"...politics are more complicated than speculation from yellow journalism

 

 

...

[Juan Fuentes]

lets add a little color to the thread...

 

 

 

[WORDISM45]

if you truly do want to learn more about american imperialism in latin america watch the documentary 'the war on democracy'

 

here's a review http://www.thedocumentaryblog.com/index.php/2007/05/22/the-war-on-democracy/

 

here's the doco

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148&q=the+war+on+democracy&total=2685&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Stereotype V.0002]

I am choosing to believe the information I hear firsthand from Venezuelans, which adheres to no media source, no corporate interest, only personal experience.

 

Please, these people were obviously new world order disinformation agents, sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor. You are so gullible!

<--anti-revolutionary CIA goon

[Stereotype V.0002]

if any of you actually watch Venezuelan TV you will realize their entire media is completely against him (apart from state run TV) ..... yet he doesn't go and have them arrested.

Have you watched it lately? Because it is exactly the opposite of what you are describing. And he does go around arresting dissidents.

 

”Of the three commercial stations accessible in all parts of Venezuela, only RCTV has remained strongly critical of the government. The other two—Venevision and Televen—were themselves accused of supporting the attempted coup and subsequent anti–government protests. But both have since removed virtually all content critical of the government from their programming. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm

 

 

Chavez investigating a few dissidents

It is a little more extreme than this.

 

”In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

 

”There have been reports of at least nine protesters killed and dozens of people injured—including several journalists—during confrontations with the National Guard over the past week. Under international standards, the intentional use of lethal force by law enforcement officials is permissible only when strictly unavoidable to protect life. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm

 

”Darwin Arguello, an army soldier, Angel Salas, a navy corporal, and Félix Pinto, an airman, were reportedly abducted together in Caracas during the night of February 15. The following day, police discovered Pinto's body and that of a twenty-eight-year-old woman, Zaida Perozo López, close to a highway in the state of Miranda, some forty kilometers east of Caracas.

Arguello, Salas, and Pinto had joined a protest by dissident military officers against the Chávez government and had participated in opposition gatherings in the Plaza Altamira, a square where anti-Chávez activists have been camped for more than three months. Zaida Perozo is also reported to have frequented the square. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm

 

”Amnesty International today expressed grave concern that this week's events in Venezuela -- including the detention of a prominent opposition figure and the killing of army dissidents -- could lead to a further deterioration of the human rights situation in the country," Amnesty International said.”

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052003?open&of=ENG-VEN

[MayorMeanBeans]

^damn. human rights watch. Sounds like CIA....

 

Fuentes I've spent a shitload of time in El Salvador. In the FMLN's base of support, in addition to the time i spent in the capital. Working with them. Yeah, I worked for a Bolivarian revolution party. and guess what. what they're arguing simply does not make sense.

 

I know all about CIA doing this and that. Furthermore, in that context, I know just how easy it is for people like you to make sense of a strange world by blaming an other that is hidden.

 

don't patronize me with that 'columbus cartoon' talk. i'm not stupid. and guess what, i route arguments in fact, not basing it on "what is, is really not. and what can't be seen, its because you're not looking hard enough." same with this "you don't understand the deep-rooted racism". fuck that- those people are pissed because their shit is being usurped by the state. NOT THE PEOPLE. the state. (fascism is close).

 

and i quote you here:

 

you ask about the oil industry like regular people was going to know how a company is going to deal with their problems... all i know is that venezuela is hurrying up on extracting all the oil possible and selling it quick because they know in 20 years oil as energy would not be used as widely as it is used now.

with that oil money make the many industries they are building now and advance in the field of agriculture.

you can be so stupid to only depend on oil, or pessimistic enough to say "what if you didnt have oil"...politics are more complicated than speculation from yellow journalism

 

how can you say its a good idea to fund the very programs that keep you in power with a limited source of revenue? thats not economics, poli sci, or anything. thats just dumb if you do that. agriculture? come on dude. 88% of the population lives in urban areas. FACT. (another cia factbook lie, right?)

 

get at me with some number crunching.

 

 

[Juan Fuentes]

check this video out

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4757297616216690302&q=venezuela+bolivarian&total=1260&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

 

This documentary consists mostly of interviews with ... all » working-class Venezuelan women and men, including a few long-time left activists, talking about how they have been affecting and affected by the changes in Venezuela since the election of Hugo Chavez. It will disappoint those looking for "balance" between revolutionary and counter-revolutionary views, but will be of great interest to those interested in understanding the accomplishments and limitations of the Bolivarian process. It also has some nice musical interludes to prevent information overload.

[WORDISM45]

Have you watched it lately? Because it is exactly the opposite of what you are describing. And he does go around arresting dissidents.

 

”Of the three commercial stations accessible in all parts of Venezuela, only RCTV has remained strongly critical of the government. The other two—Venevision and Televen—were themselves accused of supporting the attempted coup and subsequent anti–government protests. But both have since removed virtually all content critical of the government from their programming. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm

 

 

 

It is a little more extreme than this.

 

”In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

 

”There have been reports of at least nine protesters killed and dozens of people injured—including several journalists—during confrontations with the National Guard over the past week. Under international standards, the intentional use of lethal force by law enforcement officials is permissible only when strictly unavoidable to protect life. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm

 

”Darwin Arguello, an army soldier, Angel Salas, a navy corporal, and Félix Pinto, an airman, were reportedly abducted together in Caracas during the night of February 15. The following day, police discovered Pinto's body and that of a twenty-eight-year-old woman, Zaida Perozo López, close to a highway in the state of Miranda, some forty kilometers east of Caracas.

Arguello, Salas, and Pinto had joined a protest by dissident military officers against the Chávez government and had participated in opposition gatherings in the Plaza Altamira, a square where anti-Chávez activists have been camped for more than three months. Zaida Perozo is also reported to have frequented the square. “

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm

 

”Amnesty International today expressed grave concern that this week's events in Venezuela -- including the detention of a prominent opposition figure and the killing of army dissidents -- could lead to a further deterioration of the human rights situation in the country," Amnesty International said.”

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052003?open&of=ENG-VEN

This is terrible news and it does show that there are glaring faults in the way Venezuela is run. However for a developing country undergoing a massive social change none of this is new in the slightest. I'm not defending these actions at all but this kind of thing happens all over the developing world (and in some developed countries too) all the time. Compare this with what was happening to political dissidents in the US backed banana republics or under Pinochet and you will see it is actually much less frequent and much less severe. Also a lot of this doesn't necessarily reflect onto Hugo Chavez himself, it can be people on the ground responding to containable threats in an over the top manner, doesn;t mena they were instructed to act in such a way.

[Stereotype V.0002]

However for a developing country undergoing a massive social change none of this is new in the slightest. I'm not defending these actions at all but this kind of thing happens all over the developing world

So it is undergoing social changes, do the ends justify the means? Are the executions arrests etc inevitable and should just be accepted because this is going on in the shittier part of the world? The fear and control method didn’t work out so great for cuba in their quest for social equity.

 

Anyway the examples I posted were from a 2 minute search so there is a lot more of this going on, and definitely more that isn’t in the papers or being documented. As far as Chavez not being responsible for these things, thats a stretch. At the very least he knew of and didn’t object to the legal system arresting and putting on show trials for the political opposition leaders, or shutting down all Venezuelan media that’s critical of him. If he didn’t personally instruct the national guard to kill a handful of protestors during each protest, he didn’t tell them to show some restraint after the first incident either. And I really doubt his security service goes around on their own initiative abducting and executing chavez’s political opponents. I know this type of thing has happened on a larger scale (which chavez is well on his way to) in other countries in the past and it is part of the third world backwaters and all that.... but if you are using pinochet’s dictatorship as the comparison to morally measure up Chavez’s Venezuela, things must be pretty fucked up there in the first place.

[WORDISM45]

yes in cases of movign the country onto a better, more free and equal, and more prosperous phase i do think the ends justify the means (to a certain degree and in keeping with many other factors). Don't you think the ends justified the means for the french revolution? (after which there was a terrible shitstorm and a brutal dictator came to power for a period of time, not sayuing Chavez is a brutal dictator) there are more examples of this nature than i can be bothered referring to but i'm sure you're familiar with them so it doesn;t matter.

 

On the subject of ends justifying means am i wrong in my memory that you are pro Iraq war? isn't that what you claim to be the ends (iraqi freedom etc etc) justifying the means on an incomparable scale to this?

[Stereotype V.0002]

I said the “ends justify the means” phrase sort of sarcastically because I think its bullshit, it hasn’t worked out well in the past when used as justification. You can’t condemn pinochet or other dictatorships while giving chavez a free pass for doing the same things. Im assuming you are referring to “the terror” period of the French revolution, no I don’t think it was justified or acceptable at all to arbitrarily kill tens of thousands of people, or even necessary to have brought about modern france. Keeping the population in check throguh murder and intimidation never eventually leads to the originally stated goals of an equal utopian society. It just turns into perpetual violence for however long that particular dictatorship/govt lasts. The bulk of the violence of the French revolution only lasted until the guy in charge during that period was guillotined. Also look at the soviet union or cuba, there is just perpetual violence for the duration until the ruling party falls apart. So I agree with you to the extent that maybe Venezuela will be better off as a result of chavez, after chavez’s govt goes away, and hopefully this will happen before he starts killing people wholesale.

 

Also the Iraq war isn’t a great comparison from the US military’s standpoint because they have rules of engagement and only target people taking up violence against them or Iraqis, they don’t detain or kill people for having the wrong politics or protesting. The shia controlled govt's efforts to consolidate their power is a different story though.

[WORDISM45]

that is absolute and utter bullshit that they don't detain or kill people for having the wrong politics, they have detained some ridiculous amount like 60000 people in the 'war on terror' without charging them or providing evidence against them, i would say that falls under the area of having the wrong 'politics', or maybe just the wrong nationality but whatever. anyway i don;t want to get involved in a debate on Iraq I was just pointing out that I seem to remember you supporting the War In Iraq on an ends justifying the means basis, do you not?

 

It's a ridiculous slippery slope argument to compare what Chavez is doing now to "killing people wholesale" as if it's a foregone conclusion that this will happen, there is really no other word for it than utterly ridiculous. And once again i'm not giving Chavez a 'free pass' I am just not aware of anything he has done thus far that is comparable to what actual dictators like Pinochet have done in the past.

[Stereotype V.0002]

I am just not aware of anything he has done thus far that is comparable to what actual dictators like Pinochet have done in the past.

Did you see the above links I posted? Check out human rights watch or amnesty international’s websites, unless you think these are lies part of the anti-chavez agenda or something. Abducting and murdering people for being political dissidents, arresting political opponents on charges of “treason”, beating protesters to death or shooting at them, are exactly the tactics Pinochet and every other dictator uses (on a larger scale than chavez, but murder is muder). If you can convince yourself chavez isn’t really responsible for some of these things since he isn’t blatantly admitting it (but there is no denying he is behind locking up opposition leaders and shutting down all media critical of him), others could say Pinochet or Videla weren’t really responsible for the thousands of people who disappeared, for the same reasons. And their supporters actually say the exact same things, Pinochet wasnt responsible, you have to crack a few eggs to make an omlette, yadda yadda.

 

It's a ridiculous slippery slope argument to compare what Chavez is doing now to "killing people wholesale" as if it's a foregone conclusion that this will happen, there is really no other word for it than utterly ridiculous.

Killing a few innocent people here and there, and imprisoning a few innocent people here and there, because he thinks its for the benefit of the masses IS a slippery slope. So is the thought process rationalizing a few people being killed and having their rights taken away because its in the third world (as if human life has less of a value in the lower hemisphere) and that “the ends justify the means.” Or using fucking bloodbaths like the French revolution as examples of social change to aspire to. I’m not comparing it to killing people on a massive scale because he isnt doing that yet, but those same tactics Pinochet and others use to control the population and keep a lid on dissent are being used in Venezuela, just on a smaller scale.... which have been getting increasingly more frequent in the past few years. It isn’t a foregone conclusion that Venezuela will end up like chavez’s best friend fidel's country, but like it or not thats the direction he is heading.

[Stereotype V.0002]

that is absolute and utter bullshit that they don't detain or kill people for having the wrong politics, they have detained some ridiculous amount like 60000 people in the 'war on terror' without charging them or providing evidence against them, i would say that falls under the area of having the wrong 'politics', or maybe just the wrong nationality but whatever. anyway i don;t want to get involved in a debate on Iraq I was just pointing out that I seem to remember you supporting the War In Iraq on an ends justifying the means basis, do you not?

I know you said you don’t want to debate the war (after you spend a paragraph debating it), but its funny how people change subjects to something unrelated when they find themselves supporting a point that’s uncomfortable for them.... for example, trying to justify or deny human rights abuses because the govt carrying them out happens to share the same politics as you. Anyways I initially thought the invasion would be a good thing because I thought it could have been beneficial for the people, like Afghanistan or our involvement in the Balkans or numerous other places, and would have given us a location to counter al qaeda after we recently had the Clinton-era kid gloves taken off. Before you bring up “no blood 4 oil brosef” do a quick search and find out how much Iraqi oil the US is commandeering/exporting, this will save both of us plenty of time. I don’t think it was worth it with the cost and drain on resources though, so no I don't "support it on an ends justifying the means basis".

 

Also you are being vague or didn't understand what I wrote because you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about, I’m guessing websites like “informationclearinghouse” are your main source of info. In case it’s a little fuzzy, there is a difference between people being detained for killing others, and detaining people for “having the wrong politics” which means protesting or politically opposing the ruling party but not taking up violence. Where did you get that number from by the way? I know some people on the left and the dawoodjihad types have this fantasy of American troops wearing SS uniforms, going door to door and ritualistically sacrificing every firstborn iraqi child to baseball and Jesus. But if you think really really hard about it, given the limited number of American troops in iraq and the great abundance of crazy fucks trying to kill them, it would be a little impractical and counterproductive for them to expend resources to arrest/kill the many people who non violently oppose the occupation (or those who are “the wrong nationality” whatever the fuck that means.) How do you explain the various members of the Iraqi gov/parliament that oppose the US presence? That is why the comparison with Chavez doesn’t work, he is killing and arresting political opponents, also there is no massive violent insurgency or active terrorist group in Venezuela.

[WORDISM45]

the individuals i am referring to were not arrested for "killing people" they were arrested because their names were on lists given to US forces by Iraqis of a different political/religious persuasion to them as 'suspected terrorists', or whatever the fuck the label is that Americans have for the many thousands of people they imprison on a regular basis without charging them or putting them to trial, either that or they were just arbitrarily arrested, as seems ot happen frequently. I got the number from a documentary that aired on commercial TV over here in Australia, can;t remember the name. And yes of course it is impractical and a waste of resources but that characterizes the entire war so it fits in just perfectly.

 

please stop morphing my argument to fit into something you can easily argue against, I never compared Iraq to Chavez, i simply pointed out that your argument against an 'ends justifies the means' seemed hypocritical because i seemed to remember you making that exact type of argument before.

 

on the same note i never justified and oppression, for the last fucking time i'm not saying i don't think it's terrible i simply think that on a whole the changes are moving the country in a more positive direction.

 

all you ever do is construct straw men stereotype and i seriosuly doubt it's because you're so simple that you can't understand the points other people are making, it's just because you have an inflexible geopolitical ideology and whenever you are confronted with something that doesn't fit it you just meed to go back to a few stock standard arguments that have been made time and time again.

[Stereotype V.0002]

So this is the yumone-stereotype AOL chat room now. omgbfflolol

 

Speaking of “creating” and “morphing arguments”, you’ve successfully changed the topic from Chavez’s human rights abuses(hard to defend) to attacking the evil imperialist occupation of Iraq(easy). Well done! Not that you want to debate the iraq war though. Anyway the number of Iraqi prisoners in US control is 25,000, not 60,000. They are tried by the Iraqi court system, which usually sends them right back off to kill Americans and/or Iraqis. But dont let these minor discrepancies discredit what I am sure is an otherwise factual and unbiased piece of education film. There is and has been a fairly large insurgency going on in iraq that you may or may not be aware of, which the US military is fighting, and occasionally during before and after these skirmishes they manage to capture a few people (far out, I know). Most of these people being detained are related to this seldom heard of "insurgency", like having weapon caches (those are things that “kill people” in case you were confused earlier), planting ieds, sawing peoples heads off, pleasant things of this nature. Your spiel about the rigid “geopolitical” ideology seems to fit you pretty well here. So if its better for you to believe that the majority, or all, of the prisoners the military is holding are hapless Iraqi goat herders that got arrested by the crusaders for no reason, then by all means go ahead dude.

 

"on the same note i never justified and oppression, for the last fucking time i'm not saying i don't think it's terrible i simply think that on a whole the changes are moving the country in a more positive direction."

Do you understand what the phrase “the ends JUSTIFY the means”, means, which you said you agreed to? I mean justify is the third word in it. Really, your personal opinion about how terrible the actions are means shit if you still think they are necessary to move the country in a positive direction. I don't see whats so positive about people getting arrested or killed for political reasons, but then again I'm pretty simple, US public school education etc.

 

Your sentiments behind the “changes moving the country in a more positive direction” also implicitly support these “actions”, imprisonments and murder for the political opposition, because you think the end result will be a “more free and equal” society. Also earlier claiming that all of the Venezuelan media is really against chavez, or that he isn’t necessarily responsible for the actions harder for you to defend, maketh me thinks you are in denial a little bit about someone you might admire... or just have no clue what you are talking about. Ok that’s it for me for a few days. I hope to continue this educational journey as soon as possible.

[WORDISM45]

So this is the yumone-stereotype AOL chat room now. omgbfflolol

 

Speaking of “creating” and “morphing arguments”, you’ve successfully changed the topic from Chavez’s human rights abuses(hard to defend) to attacking the evil imperialist occupation of Iraq(easy). Well done! Not that you want to debate the iraq war though. Anyway the number of Iraqi prisoners in US control is 25,000, not 60,000. They are tried by the Iraqi court system, which usually sends them right back off to kill Americans and/or Iraqis. But dont let these minor discrepancies discredit what I am sure is an otherwise factual and unbiased piece of education film. There is and has been a fairly large insurgency going on in iraq that you may or may not be aware of, which the US military is fighting, and occasionally during before and after these skirmishes they manage to capture a few people (far out, I know). Most of these people being detained are related to this seldom heard of "insurgency", like having weapon caches (those are things that “kill people” in case you were confused earlier), planting ieds, sawing peoples heads off, pleasant things of this nature. Your spiel about the rigid “geopolitical” ideology seems to fit you pretty well here. So if its better for you to believe that the majority, or all, of the prisoners the military is holding are hapless Iraqi goat herders that got arrested by the crusaders for no reason, then by all means go ahead dude.

 

"on the same note i never justified and oppression, for the last fucking time i'm not saying i don't think it's terrible i simply think that on a whole the changes are moving the country in a more positive direction."

Do you understand what the phrase “the ends JUSTIFY the means”, means, which you said you agreed to? I mean justify is the third word in it. Really, your personal opinion about how terrible the actions are means shit if you still think they are necessary to move the country in a positive direction. I don't see whats so positive about people getting arrested or killed for political reasons, but then again I'm pretty simple, US public school education etc.

 

Your sentiments behind the “changes moving the country in a more positive direction” also implicitly support these “actions”, imprisonments and murder for the political opposition, because you think the end result will be a “more free and equal” society. Also earlier claiming that all of the Venezuelan media is really against chavez, or that he isn’t necessarily responsible for the actions harder for you to defend, maketh me thinks you are in denial a little bit about someone you might admire... or just have no clue what you are talking about. Ok that’s it for me for a few days. I hope to continue this educational journey as soon as possible.

 

hahaha fucking first sentence you've done it again congratulations, don't worry ill just not bother arguing about iraq because with that one sentence you've demonstrated exactly what i am saying.

 

i would say the ends justifying the means is only applicable if whatever constitutes the means is necessary for the ends. any random piece of violence that is perpetrated by some low level member of a police force that is operating under a Chavez government has absolutely no necessity behind it for the overall ends of improving Venezuelan society. This is why it is not JUSTIFIED.

 

and yeah your last paragraph is just mroe of the same matey just for once even by yourself in your head without typing it try to stick to what people are saying not what you are saying on their behalf.

 

have a nice couple of days.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Wow, that sure was a quick response ^. I had to pack the family into the station wagon and drive to wally world, I hope I didn’t keep you waiting. I noticed on here that you tend to progressively get more and more bitchy and focus on the same cookie cutter attacks as your argument gets weaker, but the ideas behind the bitchiness have been really fascinating, like a episode of “nature” which is a great showe we have here the states. It’s gone from denial, to the ends justifying the means (which of course you never meant, since as all intellectuals know these aforementioned means must constitute the indisputable application of the geopolitical ends by their cerebral nature of the justification, in order to solve for x), back to semi-denial. The 150 or so per year extrajudicial killings by these few low level cops, if they are acting on their own and going against the chavez way of freedom and equality, you would think maybe a few of them would be punished for their “random pieces of violence” (liken randomly killing people who coincidentally are chavez opponents). I wonder if there are any neonazi 12ozers, we could have a very deep insightful conversation on how the holocaust was necessary to move germany into a more positive and prosperous period, or possibly how Hitler wasn’t himself responsible for the actions of a few low level soldiers.

 

any random piece of violence that is perpetrated by some low level member of a police force that is operating under a Chavez government

Actually I had a few other things in mind that constituted the “means” portion of that overused gay hippy slogan. Like the political leaders put on trial and imprisoned, shutdown of indepent media, intimidation, abduction and murder...But its all just a few random incidences by some low level cops. Well I am relieved to hear that! I’m going to write some emails to human rights watch and amnesty international to tell them to quit their bitching. werd up nigga!

[Stereotype V.0002]

PS:

[WORDISM45]

cbf with you anymore my ladsley

[estrik]

i am from Venezuela and i am a student of Universidad Central de Venezuela one of the public universitiesof caracas and reading some of this opinions makes me really sad... it´s very easy to talk about revolution and awakening and changes when you dont live in the country and arent suffering any of the consecuences. President Chavez has a "socialist and democratic" politic, but thats just a speech he repeats over and over without any bases to support it. What he says it´s a new university for the people, really is a place wherethey teach you only what they want you to know.. no real proffesional information is taught there. Luckily my university still has autonomy from the government so we really have acces to information, but all that would change with the new constitution, because he could declare state of exception whenever he wants taking this way control of the universities that are public but dont support chavez. Recently there was presidential elections in my university and chavez´s people didnt win in ANY of the categories, why is that? because this elections arent held by the CNE(national electoral council) so they prove the real needs of Venezuelan youth, not like the ones held by the cne in wich ones people that work for the government are fired if they vote against chavez.. Chavez also closed a television chanel that had been on tv for over 53 years just because they said something negative about him, people protested till they got tired and the voice of the people wasnt heard.. once again.. people just look at all the similarities with fidel castro. Chavez is sick with power and it´s a taking a higly productive country to a road of poverty and dictature.. More people die in venezuela a year than in irak and other countries with armed conflicts. 80% of the population lives in poverty and you want to keep this going?? with the new constitution because of the state of exception chavez can put in jail and sentence people without a fair trial, in fact without any law process at all.. and this are just some of the facts...dont beleive anything you read on pages about revolution.. chavez has been over 8 years in power and there is no revolution going on here trust me..nowadays you cant even find milk in any supermarket in Caracas, the capital think about that.